Author Topic: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry  (Read 14078 times)

Offline Natty

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #105 on: 03-01-2011, 11:01:26 »
I really do not like to make arbitrary comments, but squad movement isn't strategic.. it's tactical... in battlefield, the strategic goals are How the teams win the map, ticketbleed / destroy all weapons caches  ;) / Take all controlpoints / etc.. the big stuff.
The Tactical goals are the Squad maneuvers. The How to take position Alpha, the Crouch behind wall, The Take observation bunker on Pdh.. etc..

FH2 has the exact same Strategical Goals as BF2. cap flags. Removing hit/kill feedback would not change that.
It would however, totally disrupt the tactical game play. You would lob nades in to trenches and bunkers and not have a clue if you hit anyone, you would shoot at figures in the hedges / horizon and not even know if you hit them or not. It would be 64 guys literary having no clue wtf is going on.
Ciupita is saying that FH2 plays out in a chaotic, large scale manner. this is what we want :) it is WW2 battles, and we want 32 vs 32 to fight in one big fight, we don't want separate mini-battles of squad V squads.
If you have the squad teamplay where it is you and 4 guys VS these 5 enemies, and that fight is the only fight you see in 20min, and if you also need to lay down and aim 5 seconds to hit, and the respawn time is 60sec, then maybe hit/killmessage is redudant :) Then you can tell your squad buddy over VoIP "I hit him once" / "He's down" etc...
In FH2 (actual examples; Crater area on Pdh, Fields of PHL, Town of PeB, Tunis, Ramelle, Lebisey hedges, Luttich center, Falaise, sfakia etc) you simply can not communicate in this manner even if you wanted to since the enemy is everywhere.
Only in a few maps in certain situations do these "squad tactic events" take place.. and yes, they are cool. But they are not the core experience of FH2.

So.... the general gameplay flow of FH2 (like Ciupita says) is not 4-5 guys over VoIP trying to take out a bunker by VoIP:ing and covering eachother and moving forward like US troops in Afghanistan.
It is 32 guys storming one or two controlpoints. with explosions and bullets flying all over the place.

Just take Falaise Pocket as example.. germans attacking the destroyed battery.. What happens here (and at many similar controlpoints in FH2) is that you shoot defenders and wait for that tiny "gap" of resistance before you charge for the cap. You kill enemies (by lobbing in nades, or shooting them as they appear in the holes in the walls) and when you feel you have a chance to push for the cap, you do it.
Without the feedback of hit/kill, you simply wouldn't know..

You simply can't communicate all your actions and the enemy's action over VoIP in this situation, since the whole team is engaged in the same fight.. Our pace is way too high for singular hits/kills to be communicated.  We need the game to tell you if you hit or not, and if you killed or not, what killed you, who killed you. Otherwise the game would just be a total mess.. Not just this WW2 epic mess that we like, but a total and simply not-fun, mess.

I think you want FH2 to be a different game (mod) than it actually is... you want PR, or a slower game play overall.. Where you prone for 2minutes, see an enemy (maybe a german patrolling on a castle wall with his rifle on his back, smoking a cigarette) then take him out, communicate this to your buddies ("He's down") or that sniper scene in "Hurt Locker" where you and your spotter buddy take 25min to take down these two 'bogeys' in a house 400meters away.. This is not FH2 :) and never will be.
Or:: you want us to have assets that we don't have. For example when you shoot a german in a house 150meters away, his body would fall out of the window like in classic 70's war movies.. Or you want the players animation when getting hit to be so visible you can see it from this far, or blood splattering up like a fountain and his scream heard 200meters away + helmet flying off or he throws his rifle away while waving his arms as he falls down.

Offline ajappat

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #106 on: 03-01-2011, 11:01:37 »
Removing hit/kill feedback would not change that. It would however, totally disrupt the tactical game play. You would lob nades in to trenches and bunkers and not have a clue if you hit anyone, you would shoot at figures in the hedges / horizon and not even know if you hit them or not. It would be 64 guys literary having no clue wtf is going on.
Ciupita is saying that FH2 plays out in a chaotic, large scale manner. this is what we want :) it is WW2 battles, and we want 32 vs 32 to fight in one big fight, we don't want separate mini-battles of squad V squads.
If you have the squad teamplay where it is you and 4 guys VS these 5 enemies, and that fight is the only fight you see in 20min, and if you also need to lay down and aim 5 seconds to hit, and the respawn time is 60sec, then maybe hit/killmessage is redudant :) Then you can tell your squad buddy over VoIP "I hit him once" / "He's down" etc...


[ignore]So in ww2 they got cross in their view to confirm hit  ::)?.[/ignore]

I've played on servers without hit indicator (thors brigade few version back and gamenight). It didn't make gameplay confusing at all. It only made long range tank battles last longer as even if you scored hit on enemy, next shot could be totally missed as you can't magicaly know the exact right pixel where to aim.

It also reduced wtf-moments ALOT. No longer "I'm sure I hit that guy 3 times with rifle but he just shot me after that", as I actually didn't have X confirming those hits. Maybe I just missed.

About lobbing nades. As long as Kill message stays, it gives feedback enough, if you killed something. No need for this stupid hit indicator. Seriously no other game has this "feature" and I have never heard about someone wanting it for any other game.

Hit indicator simply doesn't fit for FH2 gameplay.
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 11:01:08 by ajappat »

Offline Beaufort

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #107 on: 03-01-2011, 11:01:26 »
Natty, say that to Vicious. Im not asking for every stuff PR has, just removing hit cross and kill messages. That is all. I agree with Ciupita, and she doesn't seem to mind if kill messages are removed or not.

Now,

FH2 has the exact same Strategical Goals as BF2. cap flags. Removing hit/kill feedback would not change that.
It would however, totally disrupt the tactical game play. You would lob nades in to trenches and bunkers and not have a clue if you hit anyone, you would shoot at figures in the hedges / horizon and not even know if you hit them or not. It would be 64 guys literary having no clue wtf is going on.

Nades in bunkers : you hear them scream in the bunker and you must go check in to secure the place.
Horizon firefights : who likes that anyway ?

Just take Falaise Pocket as example.. germans attacking the destroyed battery.. What happens here (and at many similar controlpoints in FH2) is that you shoot defenders and wait for that tiny "gap" of resistance before you charge for the cap. You kill enemies (by lobbing in nades, or shooting them as they appear in the holes in the walls) and when you feel you have a chance to push for the cap, you do it.
Without the feedback of hit/kill, you simply wouldn't know...

You simply can't communicate all your actions and the enemy's action over VoIP in this situation, since the whole team is engaged in the same fight.. Our pace is way too high for singular hits/kills to be communicated.  We need the game to tell you if you hit or not, and if you killed or not, what killed you, who killed you. Otherwise the game would just be a total mess.. Not just this WW2 epic mess that we like, but a total and simply not-fun, mess.

Im not sure Im getting it right. You are saying the team rely on kill messages to attack a flag (say flak battery on Falaise) ? Because unless they see 32 kill messages in a row, there still could be more defenders hiding. You can't know anyway.

Or:: you want us to have assets that we don't have. For example when you shoot a german in a house 150meters away, his body would fall out of the window like in classic 70's war movies.. Or you want the players animation when getting hit to be so visible you can see it from this far, or blood splattering up like a fountain and his scream heard 200meters away + helmet flying off or he throws his rifle away while waving his arms as he falls down.


Like I said, if you shoot at someone, fh2's 1s1k (or at least bleed) makes him die, slow down or hide to heal himself. That is not as good as helmet flying and all, but that is good enough...
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 11:01:34 by Beaufort »

Offline hOMEr_jAy

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #108 on: 03-01-2011, 12:01:55 »
Another good thing we´d get if kill messages and hit-indicators would be removed:
Suppressive fire would be more usefull.
When a flag is being assaulted right now machine gunners act more like marksmen. Instead of creating a "beaten zone" they fire a few short bursts on a target they see. Once they get the kill message they stop shooting instead of keeping the enemy supressed. If HI and KM would be removed they´d have to keep on shooting, because a kill can only be confirmed once the position is taken.

Just my 2 Cents.
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Offline Natty

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #109 on: 03-01-2011, 13:01:00 »
It also reduced wtf-moments ALOT. No longer "I'm sure I hit that guy 3 times with rifle but he just shot me after that", as I actually didn't have X confirming those hits. Maybe I just missed.

wow  :o  so you want an unconsistent damage system to be justified by a non existence feedback system  :o talk about a messy game experience  :P

Im not sure Im getting it right. You are saying the team rely on kill messages to attack a flag (say flak battery on Falaise) ? Because unless they see 32 kill messages in a row, there still could be more defenders hiding. You can't know anyway.

no no... The assumption was that you don't need the hit/kill indicator because your squadmates could inform you if you hit/killed or not. This simply doesn't work when you have 32 guys charging one or two CPs.. you need your own feedback because face it, in FH2 you fight alone even with a full team around you, because of our pace.

Like I said, if you shoot at someone, fh2's 1s1k (or at least bleed) makes him die, slow down or hide to heal himself. That is not as good as helmet flying and all, but that is good enough...

But they actually don't. you get wounded a lot also, and like I said, shooting dudes who prone in hedges 150m away, you simply don't know if he died or not... Dudes running over desert plains yes, you can see if he falls down, I get that.. but most maps have insane amount of vegitation, small statics, dark lighting etc... guys proning in hedges, hiding in houses.. these guys you will not know if you hit or killed :)
Please Fraps some FH2 moments and show situations where it would be more fun for you without hit feedback.
I have played in FHGN without the hit indicator, I hated it. Long range tank duels are simply pointless.. you don't see the effect of hit (sparks, smoke) so where is the tactic??... Normally if you hit someone with a tankshell (on Gazla for ex.) you decide your next maneuver by if you hit or not... If you do hit him and you are at 100% health yourself, you charge and can risk more. If you're hit and you miss, you play it carefully.
Tell me how a tank duel plays out if you don't know if you hit or not, seriously. :-\ Or dog-fights, or
Suppressive fire would be more usefull.
When a flag is being assaulted right now machine gunners act more like marksmen. Instead of creating a "beaten zone" they fire a few short bursts on a target they see. Once they get the kill message they stop shooting instead of keeping the enemy supressed. If HI and KM would be removed they´d have to keep on shooting, because a kill can only be confirmed once the position is taken.

^covering MG fire... Our MGs are quite useless as it is, you want to remove the hit indicator from MG42? wow... ::) Without Hit indicator, you think players would spend time spraying in to "enemy positions"?... they wouldn't, it would be pointless for them, since they'd got no feedback they wouldn't know if they succeeded or not..  :-\
(and why would you want them to keep firing in to an empty area? I dont get that at all, the only thing he would risk is making more TKs as his friends rush the CP...)
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 13:01:27 by Natty »

Offline katakulli

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #110 on: 03-01-2011, 13:01:01 »
 ''When i saw the main page of forum''
  Hey looks like we have a new(?) thread, is it maus? No? Than it must be alpenfestung 2  or tanker kits ::) Nooooo kill messages ...........again. + 8 pages spam. Btw how about removing ''the map''? It's unrealistic too.
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 13:01:12 by katakulli »
Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.

Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #111 on: 03-01-2011, 13:01:08 »
It also reduced wtf-moments ALOT. No longer "I'm sure I hit that guy 3 times with rifle but he just shot me after that", as I actually didn't have X confirming those hits. Maybe I just missed.

wow  :o  so you want an unconsistent damage system to be justified by a non existence feedback system  :o talk about a messy game experience  :P
Or to reword that:
wow  :o  so you want to hide an unfixable inconsistent damage system by removing part of the feedback system that gets it reported in the first place  :o talk about less complaints about hit registration  :P

Offline hOMEr_jAy

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #112 on: 03-01-2011, 13:01:26 »
^covering MG fire... Our MGs are quite useless as it is, you want to remove the hit indicator from MG42? wow... ::) Without Hit indicator, you think players would spend time spraying in to "enemy positions"?... they wouldn't, it would be pointless for them, since they'd got no feedback they wouldn't know if they succeeded or not..  :-\
(and why would you want them to keep firing in to an empty area? I dont get that at all, the only thing he would risk is making more TKs as his friends rush the CP...)

If someone sets an MG up correctly chances of killing friendlies are rather low. Also you´ve got either visual contact to your buddies or can check the minimap for their positions.
And why would I spray into an "empty area"?
For the same reason I do it in PR: To supress the enemy. The last time I played FH2 there was a "supressing shader". The more rounds I sent into an enemy area (=enemy flag zone) the more I make sure the enemy players keep their heads down. Once friendlies are close enough they can attack with grenades etc. and the MG player can relocate or cover the flanks etc.
And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere,
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Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
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Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #113 on: 03-01-2011, 13:01:09 »
''When i saw the main page of forum''
  Hey looks like we have a new(?) thread, is it maus? No? Than it must be alpenfestung 2  or tanker kits ::) Nooooo kill messages ...........again. + 8 pages spam. Btw how about removing ''the map''? It's unrealistic too.

Don't worry Kut, this thread is already more than 4 months old. ^^
...The last time I played FH2 there was a "supressing shader". ...

Actually you could now be kicked from the tester team for lack of gameplay experience. ;)
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 13:01:22 by N24Reporter »
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Offline hOMEr_jAy

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #114 on: 03-01-2011, 13:01:14 »


Actually you could now be kicked from the tester team for lack of gameplay experience. ;)
I don´t get it. o0
Please enlighten my small and slow mind.  ::)
And so he spoke, and so he spoke, that lord of Castamere,
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Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #115 on: 03-01-2011, 13:01:13 »
homer_jay is a tester?

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #116 on: 03-01-2011, 14:01:44 »
Sorry, my bad, got him mixed up with another AWOL tester.
Anyhow, then you haven't been playing FH2 for over 1 1/2 years! Burn the heretic! ^^
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Offline hOMEr_jAy

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #117 on: 03-01-2011, 14:01:44 »
Well, I haven´t spent the last 1 1/2 years with too many video games.
But there was a shader, right? And it was deemed "too much" and got removed, but there are still supressing effect currently in-game, right? If not, please add them again.

/inb4 "Stupid PR fag!!112"
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Offline Natty

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #118 on: 03-01-2011, 14:01:19 »
I love this thread :)

If someone sets an MG up correctly chances of killing friendlies are rather low.
"Sets up an MG"?  :) in FH2?.... You mean throw himself to the ground on the right spot, right?
As our maps are designed and as our combat pace flows, you don't really "set up an MG" (in public servers), you run around with the rest of the bunch, and throw yourself to the ground and spray with the MG when you see bogey's to shoot.

And why would I spray into an "empty area"?
If you don't get hit/kill indicators, you won't know if there are enemy's there. And it was you who said that with the indicator, players just "stop shooting instead of keeping the enemy supressed", so I guess you want them to keep firing, even if there might not be any enemies there. (he won't know, since he gets no feedback if he hit or not, right?)

For the same reason I do it in PR: To supress the enemy. The last time I played FH2 there was a "supressing shader". The more rounds I sent into an enemy area (=enemy flag zone) the more I make sure the enemy players keep their heads down. Once friendlies are close enough they can attack with grenades etc. and the MG player can relocate or cover the flanks etc.

And this is the root of our little disagreement party here... FH2 is not PR, and never will be. It is also not a tournament, Because we don't want that :) As Ciuputa wrote... Players simply aren't keeping their heads down in this mod. If you have an MG set up, you're an easy target for rifle-men, not a threat. Now this is a whole other problem ofcourse, but removing the poor MG gunners hit/kill indicator would only render his already poor weapon totally useless. :-\

And the day I see "Once friendlies are close enough they can attack with grenades etc. and the MG player can relocate or cover the flanks etc." on a public server, will be the day I change my name to   "omfg:-X IWasWrongAllTheTime :-X".. you don't "relocate and cover flanks" in FH2... it simply doesn't happen in normal public play. when it does happen, it's a squad of dudes who are VoIP or TS:ing with eachother, and as we said before, they are probably communicating with eachother anyway ("They're down, go for the flag I cover you") and can just ignore the hit/kill feedback ... or?  :)

Edit: just read you havent played since prior 2.2... ok then,  8)
and no one calls anyone pr fag here.. we like PR and the pace they have fit rights for that kind of warfare.. not for ww2. *piuh* :P
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 14:01:37 by Natty »

Offline Beaufort

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Re: Removing the hit-indicator and kill messages for infantry
« Reply #119 on: 03-01-2011, 15:01:54 »
@ katakuli : talk about spam ... dont you have a 180° panzerschreck shell drop to suggest ? :P

Im not sure Im getting it right. You are saying the team rely on kill messages to attack a flag (say flak battery on Falaise) ? Because unless they see 32 kill messages in a row, there still could be more defenders hiding. You can't know anyway.

no no... The assumption was that you don't need the hit/kill indicator because your squadmates could inform you if you hit/killed or not. This simply doesn't work when you have 32 guys charging one or two CPs.. you need your own feedback because face it, in FH2 you fight alone even with a full team around you, because of our pace.


I don't know who said that. You would simply look after your teammates to see what they are doing, covering each other, and improving teamwork...

Like I said, if you shoot at someone, fh2's 1s1k (or at least bleed) makes him die, slow down or hide to heal himself. That is not as good as helmet flying and all, but that is good enough...

But they actually don't. you get wounded a lot also, and like I said, shooting dudes who prone in hedges 150m away, you simply don't know if he died or not... Dudes running over desert plains yes, you can see if he falls down, I get that.. but most maps have insane amount of vegitation, small statics, dark lighting etc... guys proning in hedges, hiding in houses.. these guys you will not know if you hit or killed :)

...making hedges an houses safer places and firefights longer. Is that bad ?


Please Fraps some FH2 moments and show situations where it would be more fun for you without hit feedback.
I have played in FHGN without the hit indicator, I hated it. Long range tank duels are simply pointless.. you don't see the effect of hit (sparks, smoke) so where is the tactic??... Normally if you hit someone with a tankshell (on Gazla for ex.) you decide your next maneuver by if you hit or not... If you do hit him and you are at 100% health yourself, you charge and can risk more. If you're hit and you miss, you play it carefully.
Tell me how a tank duel plays out if you don't know if you hit or not, seriously. :-\ Or dog-fights, or


Maybe it would be more "fun" for your target ... Maybe it would make tank fights last longer ... I don't know if you know it, but über long hits with regular weapons or vehicles aren't popular at all (let alone realistic).


And the day I see "Once friendlies are close enough they can attack with grenades etc. and the MG player can relocate or cover the flanks etc." on a public server, will be the day I change my name to   "omfg:-X IWasWrongAllTheTime :-X".. you don't "relocate and cover flanks" in BF2... it simply doesn't happen in normal public play. when it does happen, it's a squad of dudes who are VoIP or TS:ing with eachother, and as we said before, they are probably communicating with eachother anyway ("They're down, go for the flag I cover you") and can just ignore the hit/kill feedback ... or?  :)

Fixed it for you.
« Last Edit: 03-01-2011, 15:01:39 by Beaufort »