Author Topic: FH2 Modding Q&A  (Read 81441 times)

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #15 on: 08-06-2009, 22:06:18 »
Sounds like a funky idea, but unfortunately also very, very confusing when you look at the normal style of FH2 where you have one specific battle, even if it was battled over for throughout the war. It makes it more simple for a common man to figure it out.

Besides, you really want to have less spawning things on maps as feasibly possible due to ctd issues. So it is not a bad idea to just stick to some certain battle.

How is the map coming along btw?
Current projects - Hatinaal, Tnom Melor, Ilat, Vimorafisech

Offline Ionizer

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #16 on: 08-06-2009, 23:06:35 »
It's umm, not.  Like I said, I can't get any good reference pictures about what the inside of the fort looked like, and the BFEditor is being a dick and crashing as soon as I almost finish the roads.  There's a fairly complicated road system around the fort, from what pictures I can find (along with Google Earth and hand drawn battle maps).  I might have to dumb down some of the less important roads/paths (and I probably shouldn't layer roads on top of one another even if it is a cool effect on some of the roads).  Also, I think I picked a map size that is too big.

What's the scale of FH2 maps?  Like the vehicles and player models are pretty much 1/1 to each other, but some of the buildings seem toned down or something.  This is also my first map, so it's kinda daunting trying to make something like this with little or no experience.

I'm not sure if I want to focus only on the Fort itself (ala Giarabub), especially since the fort seems to be rather small (especially if I use the Fort Capuzzo statics that are mysteriously present in the FH2 files, the fort is barely big enough for a single flag zone).  I could broaden the focus to include the outer defenses, except my Google-Fu fails me and I can't figure out what they were.  I could broaden it further and do a combined Capuzzo/Hafid Rdge Op. Brevity map, but I can't find a detailed map of Hafid Ridge (and Google Earth to too low-res in that area to define a height map from it).  I could also go east more and include HellFire Pass, but WaW already has a pretty kick-ass version of that (including a small Fort Capuzzo as well, although the mapper didn't use the Fort Capuzzo Statics).  Of course, I could try for all of Op. Battleaxe, but that carries a certain stigma (everyone knows about Battleaxe and expects it to be great) and I don't think an inexperienced mapper like me could fulfill those expectations.

If I was going to pick a single instance of battle at Fort Capuzzo, I would probably pick the Battle during Op. Brevity, because the Fort changed hands a few times before the Operation was called off.  My research shows that the British attacking at that time had Cruiser Mk I (A9) and Mk II (A10) tanks, which would be represented by Cruiser Mk IV (A13) in game, but they're more or less interchangeable, the Mk IV had the same armor as the Mk II, but a little more on the turret, and looked a little different, but they had the same armament [2 pdr and Vickers/BESA], Mk IV also had a better engine, so it was faster than the others even with more armor.  Nothing I can do about that, though.  The Brits also had Matilda's (a few were knocked out, which leads me to believe the defending Italians had some relatively heavy guns at their disposal, although I can't say for certain, they may have had a few 88s along with some PaK 38s).  I don't have much info about what the Italians had, but they were eventually relieved by German Panzers and together they retook the fort.

I just don't know what to concentrate on.  I guess I could have the fort itself as a flag, and then maybe have a few defensive positions just outside the Fort as flags, but the defensive positions wouldn't be spawnable for British (except maybe one, which could be a bit further away from the rest).  The Brits would have a staging area/Main Base in the East/South East and the Axis would have a Reinforcement/Main Base to the north.

One of my sources of the defenses is a drawing showing the battle during Op. Crusader, but the defenses shouldn't have changed much in 6 months (Brevity was in May, Crusader was in November), right?  I did note that Rommel had some 88s positioned close to there after Brevity, but I don't see them on the map.  You can see the Road system and what looks like walls, but the Fort itself seems to shift between certain sources.  On this map it seems to be South West of the big curve in the main Bardia-Sollum road, but most stuff I see shows it North East of the curve (including Google Earth). Here's the map:



I just don't know.

EDIT:  Actually, I do know.  I don't like the "big picture" stuff.  Sure, the terrain and roads and relative placement of the major statics is important, but I think I'd rather do the detail oriented stuff.  Like trying to place believable atmospherics and minor statics that make the players stop for a moment to notice that "Hey, maybe some African family was uprooted during the battle, look, there's their bed, and this table is still set for dinner... Aww..."  Or building improvised fortifications with whatever the soldiers had on hand (upturned tables, chairs, boxes, doors, ect).  That seems like the stuff that's most rewarding.  Unfortunately, no one is gonna give me a map that's all made and tell me to "Spice it up", so I have to slog through the "big picture" stuff first.  Also unfortunately, I'm basically lazy by nature and try my best to avoid stuff that annoys me or that I don't enjoy.  That said, maybe mapping just isn't for me...
« Last Edit: 08-06-2009, 23:06:30 by Ionizer »
 

Offline Natty

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #17 on: 09-06-2009, 09:06:26 »
Ionizer, you want some help on the map?  :)

Offline Ionizer

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #18 on: 10-06-2009, 04:06:14 »
Not really.  Part of the problem is that I get frustrated easily and my first instinct to stop doing whatever is frustrating me.  So if the Editor crashes, I get pissed off and quit.  If I can't find the info I'm looking for I get pissed off and do something else.  The map is at a standstill because of me, nothing else.  Although it would be helpful if I could find some aerial photographs of the damn fort from the war...  Also, I'm a naturally indecisive person (I can spend 15 minutes looking into the refrigerator deciding what I want to eat...for snack that will take me 30 seconds to actually eat).  So I really haven't decided what I want to do with the map besides the basics.  I know I want to do Fort Capuzzo in some capacity, but I don't know what else I want.  What I have to do is just sit down and put my mind to it and stop fussing over stupid stuff.  Which, as it turns out, I have a perfect opportunity to do tonight because I screwed up my sleep schedule (again) and will be wide awake all night and not be tired (and thus easily frustrated).  So hopefully by tomorrow I'll have enough done to make my own [WIP] thread on this forum.

Any way, I'd hate to keep clogging up the Q&A thread with my stupid problems.  So, I'll stop posting here.  Anyway, once I'm finished with my internet routine of checking the sites I check everyday, I'll hopefully settle down and start mapping.  If you don't hear from me about the map, consider it abandoned.  Maybe then I'll pick something less frustrating to do (like build a ship a bottle or try to cure cancer).

On a side note: is bfeditor.org being extremely slow for anyone else?
 

Offline fh_spitfire

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #19 on: 10-06-2009, 07:06:24 »
On a side note: is bfeditor.org being extremely slow for anyone else?
Yes, for me at last. But last times it's better, you wait few seconds it it loads up, I remember times when I had to wait 5 minutes (literally) for one page to show up...

Offline Natty

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #20 on: 10-06-2009, 11:06:59 »
Ionizer: I know how you feel, that is why I asked  :) I've been around Battefield mapping long enough to sense these frustrations.. If you want some advice, at least I can give that to you. The reason Im interested is because FHT made a version of FortCapuzzo which I worked just a little on, and apparently it played very good... something about fortresses works good I guess.. plus the fact our mod contains these statics, I feel it needs to be made at some point.

But, here some advice to you: I think you should try to work more with the Editor. Don't spend too much time imagining how you want this map to be, stop totally visiting this forum, looking at ref pictures etc... I know what it is like to not getting the map "to take off" and what you're doing now is only digging a hole, it gets deeper and deeper and soon you'll be out of energy and inspiration to make the map. This is reality for literary hundreds of mods and thousands of maps!

The reality you need to face is: Editor, grab it by the horns and just work it. You will spend at least 150-200 hours in this program if you want to make this map, I hope you started a 512x2 map, anything else would be impossible at this point.
Also dont spend too much of your focus on ref photos, text, facts etc.. Editor and the BF2 terrain is extremely limited, what looks like a supercool hill/landscape/mountain/pass/ etc on a photo will look uber ugly in editor, so don't mistrust!!

Mapping is a process, and it takes a long time until the result is looking even closely to what you have in your mind/ambition. It is not until you have shaped the terrain, placed alot of statics, textured it, lightmapped it, placed growth etc that it will look even close to your ambition.

OK this is pep-talk more than straight advice  :P but I know where you are at this point.. Here is the stages all maps/mappers go through:

1) Impulse: The idea to make a certain scenario/battle. This is after reading a book, watching a movie or when the "vision" comes to you, it is the most primitive and loosely reality-attached desire that many many people get, it is important but don't stay too long here. It is only the ignition in the engine.

2) Research: Here is where you dig deeper in to the scenario. You look at ref photos. watch documentary, read Wiki 5 times over, looking at Google Earth, looking at Military maps. Here is where the impossible vision can take over you, where you see the End Result of the map too early... This is not where you need to be right now!. Leave this stage quick! or you will be in that hole I spoke of - you will return here many many times.

3) Pre-production stage: Here you hover in the Editor, you fly aimlessly around the map, looking through statics, thinking what type of flags you want, what vehicles.... DANGERZONE - because the vision can still linger on in here, instead of grabbing the bull by the horn, many mappers spend time in this stage thinking out what tank to use, even doing stupid things like trying to reskin tanks or make their own kits, or selecting skybox.. LEAVE FAST. Pre-prod should be done in one day max, a few hours - keep it basic. Like this:
"Im doing a 512x2 map in which I will be using tanks, trucks, jeeps some APCs and AT guns. It will be british vs germans"
-Create the actual map in Editor, dont put any GamePlay Objects (tanks and shit) just fire up Photoshop instead. You now move to Design.

4) Design: Here you go more in to detail from part 3. You use Photoshop, for a 512x2 map you create a 2048x2048 texture file, save it as .TGA (Call it ColorMap.tga) Now you can look at the ref maps and photos again... look at the map with 2D eyes top down. You can paint a rough layout using all kinds of crazy colors (I use Red for axis stuff, blue for allies, white for neutral.) If you have a Wacom pen talet it is alot of help... Or buy a Wacom Bamboo A6 one, they are cheap... otherwise paint with the mouse...
-Draw up crucial landmarks, rivers, big mountains etc....
-Mark where flagzones might be, just do circles for now.. paint where main roads should lead..
-in your case. paint where Fort Capuzzo is, what surround it etc.
-TYPE. it is very useful, it will be mirrored in the editor later but at least you will remember where stuff is. ("Burned Convoy", "Trench Line", Hills, Pass, Village X, town Y etc etc)

Just fill the map up - design it - as much as possible... you aren't "mapping" yet, you are just like god looking down on the earth deciding where stuff is.......... Trust me::: If you dont do this now, you will face eternal plagues in the editor later - it is very very hard to "design" stuff in the Editor... That is for work, not design... To do, not think.. That is why most mappers quit, they didnt plan or design before starting to spam in the editor.
OK: You have an image now of your map, you look at it, be careful to not have bases or flags too close to the edge of the map, I suggest on a 2048 image (which is 512x2 = 1024 meters x 1024 meters) to have no base closer than 400 pixels from the edge. (Work with layers in PS, save the .psd as you might want to go back later). Save the map as .tga and import it in to Editor with the "Import Colormap" function. (If you want north to be north etc, just flip your colormap.tga vertical first, as Editor will do this also, your typed words will actually look normal in editor  :D)

5) Mapping: OK: you have editor open and you're looking at the crazy layout you just made in PS. Now work starts, dont get too stressed by the enormous amount of work needed to make it all look like you want (dont think that your vision will "fade" away if you dont make it fast, reality is your vision will change. No map has ever managed to come out in reality as it did in any design or imagined vision. So focus on one part at the time, for example the actual location of Fort Capuzzo. You have allready placed it historically, you have statics, you will add textures later.. Don't look too much now on ref photos... Just shape the terrain basic, place the main statics where they should go etc.. when it looks ok, move to the next place... fly around shaping terrain and placing main statics on the places you see markings from your PS file. DON'T PUT ANY STATICS FROM THE /COMMON FOLDER NOW. Don't place any vehicles. After you are done with the basic terrain + statics you put the flags you want (mainbases, fort, some more) add one soldierspawn to each flag, do preliminary combat area.

Test the map ingame. Start FH2 in window mode and you dont need to close + restart Editor.-
Always in Editor when you place statics, do Camera > Soldier so you can run with him, see if you can pass/get blocked etc.

Editor crashes mostly doing undergrowth, dont do any of that now, it's for later (Art)

6) Mapping part II: After you have shaped the terrain, built flagzones, placed all main statics (Houses, Walls, Towers, "special statics", Big rock piles etc) Do roads, they are extremely helpful.. actually you can do roads earlier, even in the 5) stage (I forgot) they will help and guid you in editor, and building areas around roads feel very natural (field edges, walls, houses, entrances to villages, treelines etc). Mainbases are rougly built (airfields, tank depos, inf barracks etc) You can now start thinking more about tactics and defenses.. this means shape terrain where you want / dont want players to pass, place landmark defenses (trenches, barbwire systems, bunkers) You gradually move over to the next phase  - the most important phase...

7) Gameplay design: Now you have the basic map, what you need to do now is define how it should play. Where do they attack, how do they get there, how can you stop them etc.. this means moving and deleting, adding and changing.. looking at the map from different angles, test ingame.. you can look at ref photos again, you can place the main tanks and vehicles, go ingame, drive around... decide how big capzones should be, adjust statics and terrain so they are good.. this is fun part! Remember to limit the players, a good defensive flagzones have very few entrances for the attacker, more for the defenders. a good "neutral" flagzone have some cover indoors, some cover outdoors, some open/uncovered areas.... Think in "clusters" put cover on only east side, leave west open.. only have capzone inside buildings in north part, leave south part with stationary guns... dont mess them up with too much randomness. I think you know this, as you are experienced Fh player.

8) By now you can easily replace the ugly Colormap and give your map some basic ground textures, you will slowly move in to the Art stage (for me the most fun). Here I dont know what you can/like. Personally I use a wacom pen + photoshop, paint around, import in to editor, export to a .png (using BF2 Mod Toolkit) etc.. switch back n forth between PS and Editor.. Do medium Terrain Lightmaps. You will see enormous result... (NOTE:: Many mappers do medium terrainLightmaps all the time, it gives depth and perspective to the map, makes it easier to see distances and hills etc.. especially on hilly/mountain filled maps. This is when you move from a 2D to a 3D look at your map)
Select the 6 detail maps, paint the flagzones textures etc.. By now everything starts to blend into a more "final stage" of the mapping process, as now everything you do is related the other... You paint a new road/path, it affects gameplay, as you shape terrain for this path, move statcis away, or block of its sides with fences, walls etc... Looks also affects gameplay... Basically you move to next stage

9) Level Art:
Here you can start using ststics from the /common folder, and small details.. Smoke effects, cable poles, tiny crates, detail statics... you mix this with painting detail textures and fine-tune the terrain (NOTE:: I have a silly principal, but IMO Only the Strentgth1 Size 1 terrain tool (Modify brush) is useful here... BF2 grids in terrain are HUGE 2x2 meter faces, and you need to very fint tune lower and raise the vertexes beween these grids... As you know, the only thing you can do when making terrain in BF2 is moving vertexes up or down that's it... forget all the fancy real-life looking mountains of BF2 vanilla or next-gen games... it is all textures (color + detail). Real terrain is ugly, low res and can only move up and down. These bastards:


10) Finalizing: You move those up or down with size 1 strength 1 to get a perfect terrain wrap around the bottom of the bunker for example.. or make a slight ege of a road or border of a field...
You also place growth now, this is CRASH-CAUSE #1 in Editor so save, save save.... It is easy to do this, no need for me to talk about it + I dont have any tips except "make it look ok".
You adjust the light in the map, this is important, more important than textures... here you will get help as well, dont spend energy/time on it if you dont wanna learn it now, I can help you or any other dev as well
You place Ambient Sounds and Effects
You handplace all soldierspawnpoints
You lace all the spawning kits, vehicles and stationary weapons, you build little places for them.. dont place an At gun just on the ground.. shape the terrain, paint it, place cover, small details etc etc..

Design - Mapping - gameplay - Art. Split these terms up in your own way, look at what youre doing and place your actions in some category.. if you realize you're darting back n forth between them in a circle and nothing happens with the map, you panic and get angry - this is proof you arent doing one of the separate things at the time.... result is: no result, only frustration.

Get rid quickly of the dreams, the ambitions, the visions and the end-result. Really, I advice you. What you have infront of you is the Sixteenth Chapel and a few buckets of paint. Do one thing at the time, it will take alot of time.. never stress..

-Set keyboard shortcuts for Move / rotate statics (no need for ALT+key, just set any key.. I have PgDown + End)
-Save LevelEditor all the time, it takes a few seconds only. Save Terrain Editor before you switch to level editor.. if Editor crashes in LevelEditor, you loose all the terrainwork you did...
-If you have done Undergrowth + Terrain/textures: Save first Undergrowth, then terrain (deselect everything except undergrowth, save, then save the rest)
-Don't make you Editor load all the content of FH2 (In Mod > Mod manager), deselect "Load Parent Mod"(wont load BF2 stuff which you shouldnt use anyway) and deselect Effects, Kits, Weapons, Vehicles etc it will load in seconds, you can load that stuff later on when you need it. Just load what you need! for example Vegitation, Soldier, StaticObjects. (soldier is needed to be able to walk around in the editor in Camera>Soldier)

Any tools or tips I mentioned in here that you dont have / know.. please ask: all are needed to map. I dont know if this has helped you, as it hasnt been alot of real tips, just a motivational "mindset" you must reach, this is hard stuff.. companies pay professionals to do this, exactly this so dont except it to be a dance on roses, it is hard.. but mostly: it takes time... gigantic portions of time. I hope you have it. Fort Capuzzo on 512x2 will have ~3000 statics, it would take me ~6 months to do it on my spare time.. ~3 if I was free all the time.
You will reach some milestones as well, stages when you can tick my stages off above^ count these! You will feel awesome when you have finished all the basic stuff, when you have a real "map" infront of you, and not just ideas and clutter...

I hope you do it, whatever help you need, just ask. thx if you read all of this  ;)
« Last Edit: 10-06-2009, 11:06:56 by Natty »

Offline Ionizer

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #21 on: 10-06-2009, 12:06:37 »
I was just coming in here to say that I gave up.  But after reading Natty's post, I'm going to give it another try.  I'm going to go back to square one and try to work through Natty's stages.  Maybe I'll be able to work better that way.  Unfortunately, I wasted last night trying to do it the wrong way, so restarting will have to wait until tomorrow.

Apparently I don't have to worry about terrain too much (apparently the entire area around Fort Capuzzo in 5 Km2 is entirely flat, with no hills, ridges, mountains or anything), from what I could find, the entire area has a variance of just 10 meters in elevation.  That's going to make it very boring unless I can find better sources that show the terrain better.

I keep thinking that Fort Capuzzo is going to be a difficult place to portray, simply because I don't know the layout of the complex completely, and because I can only realistically have a single flag in the Fort itself.  I'm thinking of expanding the focus to include more of Op. Brevity, like Musaid, Bir Wair, and Sollum, maybe even Halfaya/Hellfire Pass.  I might have to rethink my whole idea of the map.  The individual locations are too small to really focus a whole map around (including Fort Capuzzo), but distances between the places make it difficult to combine them all into the same map.  Then again, I have a hard time seeing "big pictures" (like I said before) and I'm not really taking any scaling into account (it's really hard to judge distances in the editor).  The more I think about it, the more I want to give up on Fort Capuzzo/Operation Brevity and just try a different battle/location to make a map about...

(I started this post at 6:40 EST [15 minutes after Natty posted], then got distracted with doing more research about the map [d'oh!] and forgot I was writing it.  I was originally just checking the facts on my complaints about the terrain being boring, then doing more research into the surrounding locations and other stuff.  Then I got caught up dancing the MC Hammer Dance because "Can't Touch This" started playing on my music player.  Then I finally came back and finished writing this post.  It took me an hour to write this post that should have taken 10 minutes at the most.  See part of the problem with me trying to get into mapping?  I have the attention span of...well, a squirrel.  That kinda fits with my avatar, doesn't it?)
 

Offline Natty

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #22 on: 10-06-2009, 12:06:41 »
hehe... yea, it is tough... In Editor (LevelEditor) there is a ruler.. click on a spot, then on another, then enter.. a yellow line will appear, showing the distance.... (try edge to edge on the map, it should sy 1024meters if you made a 512x2 map)

Oh, real life distances? Screw them!! Some of our best maps gameplay wise have not real distances (Gazala, Crete, etc) so sure, is there some other interesting battles close-by - add them!.. or better yet, make something up! Fort Capuzzo itself can have 2 flags, why not? just design this as you feel, keep the most important historical facts intact (for ex dont cut the entire area in half by a river if no rivers are there).

Terrain cant be flat like Sidi Rezgeh, but you dont need to make it like Gazala either, fly around, make small dips, small elevations, add rockpiles, break the environment up... remember the scale.. if you use for example a Strength 4 size 4 Modify Terrain brush, and just click 2-3 times with left mouse, you will make a quite big hill that an inf can use to not be seen by a defending MG, tank, At on the other side...

Make that PS image I talked about, post it here and I can give more suggestions..
5km2 is OK to limit down to 1x1km it is scale 1:5 which is totally OK, some FH2 maps have bigger scale (crete is like 1:20, Gazala Im sure Fenring knows)

Golden Rule: You want to make a map for gamers, to game on. Not an historical model to put in a museum for history freaks to look at with a ruler. Cut corners, delete stuff, make stuff up. Make Fort Capuzzo they way photos and research is pictured in your head, remember the limits of the game. remember your own limits, do the squirrel dance, then focus  :D good luck!

Offline Ionizer

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #23 on: 10-06-2009, 12:06:30 »
do the squirrel dance,

I am so stealing that!  I read the rest too.  I'll start thinking about stuff for the remainder of the day that I'll be awake, and hopefully be ready to put it to work soon.

Thanks for the help, Natty.
 

Online Ts4EVER

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #24 on: 19-06-2009, 13:06:32 »
what's the name of that big bunker at the first flag of supercharge? can't seem to find that bugger

Offline Natty

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #25 on: 19-06-2009, 14:06:39 »
Click on it in the editor in supercharge and you will see  :)

Online Ts4EVER

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #26 on: 19-06-2009, 17:06:45 »
Is there a way to open the standard FH2 maps? it usually doesn't work

Offline fh_spitfire

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #27 on: 19-06-2009, 17:06:42 »
Is there a way to open the standard FH2 maps? it usually doesn't work
You have to unpack them.

Offline Xp_killz

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #28 on: 19-06-2009, 18:06:24 »
hey everyone i have a question.
i have just signed up to FH although i have played FH1 as its name. very good game but i have always wonders what program it is that you guys use to make the maps on. i tryed battlecraft 1942 for BF1294 but that crashed alot of the time on my other computers and i have decided that i would aks the guys that know the stuff what program it is that u use and where u get the object packs from. i have tryed makeing maps before and 1 will admit they where very bad but one or 2 had some room to improve on as they had the start o a good begining.

any help would be good with links to sites for te packs and so forth.

thanks

Online Ts4EVER

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Re: FH2 Modding Q&A
« Reply #29 on: 19-06-2009, 20:06:00 »
Is there a way to open the standard FH2 maps? it usually doesn't work
You have to unpack them.

that explains a lot... thx