Author Topic: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45  (Read 22840 times)

Offline Zoologic

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Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« on: 26-08-2012, 13:08:24 »
I've tried both North Africa and Western Europe theatre, the tank combat seems to change a lot. Continuing from the "ineffectiveness of KwK40 cannon" thread. I should continue with this finding of mine, where the gameplay of FH2.45, although more fun, but sacrifice some degree of realism.

Everybody has been bitching about how vulnerable a Tiger or Panther is, and how overpowered M4A3 Sherman is. But that's Western Europe, axis fanboys perspective. Also we get some facts from them that powerful allied cannons seems to lose its charm too.

Try North Africa. My Matilda mk.2 and Valentine tanks aren't that powerful anymore. Every contact between me, the bots and other players can result in a loss to the Matilda mk.2. Even Panzer III Je can easily kill it now with less than 5 shots from point blank distance. This was not the case before. When playing as DAK, I have to employ various rambo tactics to put geballte ladungs on top of its engine deck or instantly lay a tellermine before it crosses the path.

Is this intended or simply a bug? Because on my side, I confirm this finding, as well as overpowered Cromwell IV. (Not specifically KWK40, but KWK38 as well) and nerfed 17 pdr. That Matilda is vulnerable from Panzer 3's 50 mm cannon.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #1 on: 26-08-2012, 15:08:07 »
I'm pretty sure the 5cm gun could penetrate them irl from close range.
@The rest: Noone is impressed you playing times or stats.
These are the facts: The devs wanted tank fights to last longer.
Tank gun damage was decreased and the change was beta tested
It did indeed work, and now tank fights last longer.
So all your bitching is doing is telling the devs that their change did indeed work.

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #2 on: 26-08-2012, 15:08:53 »
@ couple of members who got their posts deleted:

You arent adding anything to the topic. You are allowed to partake in the conversation but keep your penis swinging elsewhere. If you do not have solid feedback regarding the subject itself (I dont see how posting a massive list of gaming hours of certain individuals relates to the subject) then dont post at all.

Constructive criticism has always been welcome and still is. But if you fail to keep it civil and manage to turn it into another cockswinging competition of who knows better, then I have to stop it.

Oh btw, I wont argue with you here and its pointless for you to start raising your voice about censorship or raindows in the sky because if its off-topic, then it's off-topic. If you got a problem, you can always PM me.

Now, if you boys dont mind, start being civil and dont turn it into a personal shitfest.
« Last Edit: 26-08-2012, 15:08:21 by Flippy Warbear »

Offline Butcher

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #3 on: 26-08-2012, 15:08:18 »


Penetrated a Churchill Mark. III with a Panzer III L frontally using Pzgr40. Before that I hit it 2 times from above into the engine (I was on the hill). Still I don´t think the Churchills´ front should be penetrated by a 50mm gun, regardless of which ammunition you are using on your Panzer III. You can see where I hit it.

I think that´s the old issue with special ammunition.
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Offline Ciupita

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #4 on: 26-08-2012, 16:08:27 »
at 100m range
5 cm L.42 KwK 38            A.P. (Pz.Gr. 39)   69 mm
                                        A.P.C.R. (Pz.Gr. 40)   115 mm
5 cm L.60 PaK 38 & KwK 39    A.P. (Pz.Gr. 39)   99 mm
                                        A.P.C.R. (Pz.Gr. 40)   141 mm

So yeah, it will punch through with pzgr40. Looks like you shot it pretty close anyway.
« Last Edit: 26-08-2012, 16:08:08 by Ciupita »

Offline »KeFeng

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #5 on: 26-08-2012, 17:08:17 »
So all your bitching is doing is telling the devs that their change did indeed work.
Since when is having a different opinion "bitching"? Because you are in your opinion?

Calling some Forum Members "Bitches", cause they share their Experiences. Seriously, guys. Who has made him a Moderator?!
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Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #6 on: 26-08-2012, 17:08:49 »
So all your bitching is doing is telling the devs that their change did indeed work.
Since when is having a different opinion "bitching"? Because you are in your opinion?

Calling some Forum Members "Bitches", cause they share their Experiences. Seriously, guys. Who has made him a Moderator?!

Repeating the same anectdotal observations ad nauseam is not giving feedback or "sharing experience" (doesn't "sharing" imply some actual worth btw?), it's bitching, plain and simple.

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #7 on: 26-08-2012, 17:08:38 »


This is the frontal armour layout of the churchill tank Mark III and IV. Correct up to the turret armour, wich is 88.9mm. The first examples had 76mm armour but this was quickly uparmoured up to 88.9mm


Keep in mind tough, the 38mm is heavily sloped so it easily brings 80mm protection
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Offline »KeFeng

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #8 on: 26-08-2012, 18:08:01 »
Please take your personal issues with Ts4EVER or whoever to PM, this is not the place to argue about such. Thanks
« Last Edit: 26-08-2012, 18:08:09 by Flippy Warbear »
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #9 on: 26-08-2012, 18:08:43 »
Yes, the PzGr 40 should have punched through it. That's confirmed.

When giving opinion, please do it politely, because in this hall, sits people with decent amount of knowledge. The devs got Lightning, Taranov, Mudra, and other knowledgeable guys who knows their stuff well and perhaps godknows how many bolts are needed to attach Sherman Easy Eight's applique armour. Plus I bet, little of you guys know about the game mechanics. Me neither.

I want a change, yes... you too, and let's do it in good manners.

My intention here was to confirm whether the potentially unrealistic consequences to the changes are indeed intentional, not to challenge their facts. It is clear from other threads that we wanted to make a penetration as a kill. But then, the devs wanted to make the tankfight last longer. We should be giving valuable feedbacks, not telling them "this is right, that is wrong" straight on the face.

My proposal is to count non penetration as damage to the health bar (which is reduced). I too enjoy the tanking gameplay now, but felt wrong that the big cats (Panther and Tiger) loses its usefulness, even when driven by bots, pitted against other bots. Bot's behavior is to fire while charging closer until they made a collision, then fire their cannons again until someone is destroyed. So this should be clear: Tiger should win most of the engagements with the exception of against Firefly, Achilles, Jackson, etc. But it didn't, and encounters has been random at most. What I can confirm is the powerfulness of Cromwell IV. Tried to teamkill it with 17 pdr while at base (point blank), it survived a shot to the front, but died from a shot to other sides.

Angle mod to my understanding is just increasing the armour value of some tanks which have its armour layout sloped. Is this correct? So the 38 mm value of that Chuchill sloped armour in TheTA's post is increased respectively in-game to simulate the slope effect, e.g. sloped at 30 degrees mean that we have to divide it by cos 60, which resulted in 76 mm thickness when being hit straight. Or there exist other modifications that I don't know? E.g. like there is additional calculation of how the shell impact the armour layer? For example, a near 1 degree impact will greatly reduce the penetration rate.
« Last Edit: 26-08-2012, 18:08:33 by Zoologic »

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #10 on: 26-08-2012, 19:08:36 »
If you consider that the PzGr 40 can penetrate a Churchill from the front, then why isn't it possible to kill a Grant from 5 metre point blank ( around 40 mm plane side armor)? I understand the point of balancing things and tank fights lasting longer, but it seems kinda random how the different tanks behave to each other. The 75 ABCBC from Sherman and Cromwell deals a good amount of damage to the side of the KT. You don't even need the Firefly on Goodwood.

With those things in mind, please can someone explain me, why it isn't possible to kill a Panther with the Firefly from the front, also when you hit the shot trap from 30 metre. I talked a littlebit with Unique about this problem and he can confirm it. It was the Panther on Totalize so the Ausf. A.

@Ts4ever: what I still don't get, why you bring up realistic penetration values, when you insist on the fact, that this tanking system is scaled down to the shorter combat ranges in FH2? The scaling behaves very assymetrical on axis and allied side for the different tanks.

Offline Ciupita

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #11 on: 26-08-2012, 19:08:32 »
Put up videos to proof you sayings. I can say I killed a king tiger with vickers tank and argue about it all the day.

Offline [F|H]Taz18

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #12 on: 26-08-2012, 22:08:53 »
Angle mod to my understanding is just increasing the armour value of some tanks which have its armour layout sloped. Is this correct? So the 38 mm value of that Chuchill sloped armour in TheTA's post is increased respectively in-game to simulate the slope effect, e.g. sloped at 30 degrees mean that we have to divide it by cos 60, which resulted in 76 mm thickness when being hit straight. Or there exist other modifications that I don't know? E.g. like there is additional calculation of how the shell impact the armour layer? For example, a near 1 degree impact will greatly reduce the penetration rate.

From the News archive:
Quote
When hitting highly angled surfaces from 60 - 90 degrees, the damage dealt will drop accordingly down to zero.

It isn't that tank shells don't penetrate, the damage is adjusted to 0 in all cases.

There is the base damage values which are how much damage a specific shell (ex. 50mmL42-AP-Projectile) does to a specific armour material (ex. 38mm_armor).
There is the Distance Modifier which reduces the base damage values.
There is the Angled Damage Modifier which further reduces the base damage values.


I could be missing a modifier in there that is the jist of it.

Offline psykfallet

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #13 on: 27-08-2012, 11:08:00 »


This is the frontal armour layout of the churchill tank Mark III and IV. Correct up to the turret armour, wich is 88.9mm. The first examples had 76mm armour but this was quickly uparmoured up to 88.9mm


Keep in mind tough, the 38mm is heavily sloped so it easily brings 80mm protection
Is that how it is ingame? Because then you have a pretty big area of weak 50mm armor right in the front



Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Powerful Tanks Become Vulnerable in 2.45
« Reply #14 on: 27-08-2012, 17:08:47 »


This is the frontal armour layout of the churchill tank Mark III and IV. Correct up to the turret armour, wich is 88.9mm. The first examples had 76mm armour but this was quickly uparmoured up to 88.9mm


Keep in mind tough, the 38mm is heavily sloped so it easily brings 80mm protection
Is that how it is ingame? Because then you have a pretty big area of weak 50mm armor right in the front
Any MG should be a weakspot. Any driver slot should be a weakspot.
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