Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Singleplayer and Coop => Topic started by: djinn on 10-07-2011, 11:07:20

Title: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 10-07-2011, 11:07:20
LET THIS THREAD ACT AS A SUGGESTION THREAD FOR AI IN FORGOTTEN HOPE 2
(PLEASE PROVIDE ENOUGH INFORMATION BASED ON WHAT IS POSSIBLE IN THE ENGINE - THIS IS NOT A BUGS-REPORTING THREAD)

1. Make Grant I use its hull cannon (The 75mm) fire HE rather than using its foward facing MG and allow the Sherman in NA to fire HE also

The Allies completely lack an HE-firing tank in NA. While their tanks are superior in armor to the NA Germans, short of the PzIV and Marder's 75mm canon, they are incapable of dealing with 360o threats from German infantry, granted they start using their gabelt ladungs. The grant is particularly vulnerable since its hull mg is only foward facing. Addition of HE for both Sherman and Grant will balance the NA battlefield.


2. Move the howitzers in Goodwood foward
The German nebelwerfer is a real threat on this map, however the Allied arty is notably absent, since it is too far to fire on anything. I suggest moving it foward in SP/COOP to between the first hedgrow and boacage fixtures so it remains in cover but able to fire on the middle base and even to Cagney.


3. Allow big guns to respawn or be replaced when flag changes hands
While AT guns and mortars are destroyed permanently in SP/COOP for lack of AI ability to repair guns, some mgs reappear (And these are one-direction facing and therefore should NOT), while big guns like 88s, howitzers etc do not reappear. This should reappear or be replaced by a counterpart in all maps that have them, when their spawn area changes hands. A howitzer should be replaced by its opposing counterpart, a bofers AA should be replaced by a flakvierling or in NA, an 88.

4. Using Static guns
Bots dont use mobile ATs well. While these may remain in small part, most AT guns are well positioned and should hence be replaced in SP/COOP with static counterparts to create a defensive wall. Maps that include these are, Goodwood, Villers Bocage, Mersa matru, Totalize and Mareth Line.


5. Spawn static guns
Most if not all static guns i.e. MG, AT and AA, as well as mortars and howitzer should be made spawn points for bots. As the defensive line should be the primary defense, these should be the first line of defense, with the remaining bots moving in and out those lines in armor, aircraft, light vehicles and on foot.

6. Replace pickup mortar with static mortar points
Some pickup mortar should be replaced with mortar vehicles so that bots can use them. In some maps, there are as many as 2 pickup mortars per side, and in some pickup mortar is less important than mortar support. Many maps could do with constantly firing mortars :)

7. Make bots dash
Human players only walk when their run-bar is empty and when trying to sneak. Currently bots are vulnerable because they seldom run except when startled or when chasing a vehicle. I think bots should run by default, seeing that their run can also be exhausted. They should only walk when firing on enemy and when approaching seen enemy (even if out of view). This will make them appear sneaky when flanking enemy, while moving them to the battlefield faster, in the same way humans do.

8. The sniper vehicle
This would require work from a coder, but I suggest having a sniper vehicle, an invisible sniper rifle vehicle like an mg, except rather than placed on a wall, its in the air and with 360o rotational use - The awkwardness of this is why it should be invisible until its in use.

It is a spawn point so even if its in a church tower, bots can use it. Humans on the other hand cannot. The vehicle in use appears as a sniper aiming down the sites and with 360o rotation. Provide it with the minimum deviation possible and it becomes a real threat where pickup sniper kits otherwise are. Do not replace the sniper kit however, so that humans can use these. Don't forget, they wont see what they are missing.

Add this to COOP/SP and you will have a whole new threat on the battlefield - The sniper. It should be targeted in the same way mg positions are, mg, bullets, grenade launcher and HE from opposing forces, especially since it will likely be in concealed locations i.e. where sniper kits are tactically positioned.

Moderators, if you see this fit, pleace Sticky this. Thanks
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 24-07-2011, 19:07:20
Meus
The nebelwerfer may need to be moved forward to the edge of the Main base i.e on the hill infront of the tanks rather than behind, so that it can see into the town to fire. IMO, as long as it is behind the ABC lines, it can be moved forward - Applies to all maps, including Cobra, where arty plays NO role at all.

Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 18-08-2011, 11:08:52
Bot Howitzers and mortar in FH2

I once came up with the idea to raise the perspective of artillery to allow it fire as far it sees from the sky. Drawde implemented this along with his fix for arty to make mortar fire in the first place , and we have what we have today.

But Drawde could never raise it above a certain height.. I think 15ft. Raising it above this tended to block the spawn points for some reason. Sadly, THIS is the solution, and I believe somehow raising it further (Specifically, to the height that allows bots to fire as far as the gun can elevate) is the solution, and I think work needs to be done to get this to work.

Alternatively, of if bots can be made to switch weapons on arty, bots should be able to fire based on the camera view. Bots can fire what the SEE. so if their primary or much-used secondary view point is the remote view, and people (human or bot) spot for them, my theory is they WILL fire at that location. Which i dont have to mention, will give SP/COOP the much desired live fire-support we currently lack.

I think some research needs to go into this to see if this is the case....



Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: CosmonautVince on 18-08-2011, 11:08:08
+1
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 18-08-2011, 11:08:24
Personally, I really think this thread needs to be stickied, as per my request. We need a portal to SUGGEST


We have The Fan Mod, ie, Modding Section for SP
We have The Download Section for SP
We have The Tracker, Bugs Section for SP
We have 'Singleplayer in Fh2', ie, Help Section for SP

We need the Suggestions section... i.e This thread
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: CosmonautVince on 18-08-2011, 12:08:11
Moved from outside thread: Hi sp community. Vc here to bitch again. Tonight I'm asking if there is any way or even suggestions for the ai for the anti tank class. While they for the most part use their rifles effectively. I'm wondering if it might be more realistic for the bots to seek cover and in out attack tanks when available. At the current moment the ai is a bit clunky with the anti tank grenades. The whole process can be seen. The soldier (usually from quite some distance away) selects the grenade, then walks (not sprints from what iv seen) aall the way up to the tank. (Dangerously close really.) Pulls the pin, throws, then sprints away. My suggestion is this is fixed obviously, but I'm interested in hearing more opinions on whats would be a good alternative to the current sluggish process.
EDIT: djinn has recently given the idea that the bots dash to and dash from the tank as a simple solution. I currently agree with this, but can anyone else elaborate?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: CosmonautVince on 18-08-2011, 12:08:30
On that note as well, do the anti tank ai know how to use their at rifles? Or do they just fire indiscriminately at the tanks ignoriing weak points?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 18-08-2011, 13:08:26
Unfortunately, they fire indescriminately. Using AT rifles is Work in Progress. Originally they fired standing, since it was hard to get them to fire it prone. Now they are forced to only fire prone, but they still don't know that

You see them standing still sometimes because they are actually trying to fire standing, and cannot. Rarely, they might decided to fire prone. But tweaking needs to exist to make them fire prone ALL the time

What CAN be done is to make them fire at only light tanks. I recall the bots made a distinction between tank types, Not sure if it was only for heavy tanks i.e so that tanks switched to special AP, but if it also went for light tanks, then there might be a way to make them ONLY fire at those, so that it is effective.

Also, they need to fire at the very edge of their range so that they are still safe, while terrorizing the tanks at range. At closer range, their option should NOT be the rifle, but the bombs. That will be a possible workaround

But like I said, we are still trying to see how to get them to realize that the ONLY way to fire is prone.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: CosmonautVince on 20-08-2011, 13:08:12
Congrats on sticky ! :D
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: :| Hi on 20-08-2011, 20:08:43
Congrats Djinn!
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 21-08-2011, 17:08:40
I just requested is all. We have the Admins to thank for it :)

But its nice to have a clear area for Singleplayer/COOP Suggestions now.

I just wish we'd have an actively discussion and implementing community again.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Void on 27-11-2011, 00:11:33
On sprinting bots:

AFAIK a bot's decision to sprint or not isn't under our control. Also, it might not work as well as you would expect.

When bots are walking around they are doing more than it seems - detecting enemies, targeting (this starts before the weapon is drawn, as range and target are considered before weapon choice) , as well as updating the team's common database about the location and nature of enemy units. A bot would not be as efficient at any of these things if it were constantly dashing about.

That is not to say that there are not ways to improve bot performance / survivability. I would like to see changes to the bot "attention spans" (they have them) adjusted with respect to the importance of the target, e.g., a tank should stay in a bot's "memory" longer than an enemy jeep.

Highly structured strategic strength values for all PCOs would also be nice to see in the AI templates.

On bots using that tank mg instead of the main gun: This should not be difficult to fix, I hope someone does.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Darman on 02-12-2011, 16:12:04
So Is this the topic where I can post wishes for AI support? If yes, pease FH Devs add Support to your greatest maps: Bastogne, Hurtgen Forest and Vossenak!
if, not, I'm very sorry^^
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 02-12-2011, 23:12:27
This is the right place-ish. You can actually create threads for those. You are allowed. I created this thread specifically for AI improvements and additions. Maps are fine, but the current situation is, people tend to create threads for those

So depends on which you feel is more effective.

Check the threads though. There is an unofficial Vossnack and Hurtgen Map circulating around. I will only suggest you enter the files are replace the GPO with that from the Conquest version.

We are yet to get these officially done, but for now, that should suffice.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Darman on 02-12-2011, 23:12:24
I just found it. Great work!
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Tankbuster on 19-01-2012, 10:01:05
Can you please post a link?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: aserafimov on 19-01-2012, 16:01:41
Can you please post a link?

http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=16267.0
will find both links in the Reply #14..
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Tankbuster on 19-01-2012, 16:01:14
Thank you.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 06-03-2012, 19:03:32
I have a suggestion. The bridge repairing behaviour is not used. I wonder if that behaviour could be used for something else ? Like a flank command or some other behaviour ?

In the same vein I was looking at target objects in AIX2. These are used to home in missles on a laser sight or a flare. I wonder if the artillery marker could be used in some way to add a tactical feature like making all tanks home in on that location or some other function ?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 07-03-2012, 12:03:03
Interesting. Worth considering.
I was considering using the already existing spots system.
But it means the view that it creates needs to actually overwrite what the arty gunner otherwise has
I think bots may be able to estimate location and fire.

But we need to somehow get bots to spot without trying to kill their targets with it.

Anyone notice that strange things bots do sometimes when you start firing at them. Zigzaggin back and forth? Is that deliberate, cuz that may open a door for bots directly avoiding getting shot by enemy if coded right.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 08-03-2012, 11:03:31
Could just be their "fuzzy" behaviour.

There is an artillery marker, right ? Maybe I'm imagining things but I could swear the tanks have such a thing, or was it "smoke marker" ? I know smoke is used as a marker.

"At 2300 hours on 7 August, Bomber Command kicked off the attack by hitting the five targets
on the flanks of 2nd Corps’ line of advance. Despite some claims exaggerating the positive effects
of the air strike, 21st Army Group’s No. 2 Operational Research Section (OSR) later reported that
the bombing was inaccurate, possibly as a result of the premature firing of the artillery’s marker
shells
, and that relatively little of importance was hit."


Sic Itur Ad Astra: Canadian Aerospace Power Studies, Volume 2, Big Sky, Little Air Force (http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/CFAWC/eLibrary/pubs/SicIturAdAstra-Vol2_e.pdf)

Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: hawkeye2816 on 23-08-2012, 07:08:58
Yeah, making sure that bots don't try to kill people with the spotter stuff is pretty important.  I remember FH1 where you could get in a vehicle or emplacement that had indirect fire abilities and 300 cameras would go up.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 23-08-2012, 09:08:57
Issue is, how do you tell a spotter to stop spotting? Target isn't dead - Unless some how the BF2 system already has something like that - Bots call out enemy locations, right? And they do it once.

Can spotters with binocs do that? We already have the annoying smoke people going on and on, we don't need the same people spotting forever too.

But if they could, or humans can, then the remote view that replaces the arty view will bring down deadly accurate fire on a specific target. I can live with that   ;D
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: hawkeye2816 on 23-08-2012, 18:08:18
Honestly, though, I'd be happy if the navmeshes were fixed.  In Anctoville, for instance, bots trying to go down that main road to the church keep getting stuck behind those walls of sandbags and keep trying to jump over them.

After that, if it could be done to somehow teach bots how to effectively use cover, rather than just walk down the middle of the road and crouch to shoot, that would add a whole new element to SP games.

Also, tanks.  Because of the raised POV in the entry position of a tank, the bots can see over things that players wouldn't be able to.  Bots will try to shoot you through walls.  The most annoying part of it is that sometimes they succeed.  If it could somehow be made so that bots don't use the raised view to peek over walls and fire, that would be great.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: djinn on 23-08-2012, 18:08:32
A number of maps have had their navmeshes redone internally. Anctoville is one of these.
However, not much can be done with AI using cover. Battlefield 2 AI isn't that complex I'm afraid.

There is the possibility of making their different roles stand out better, so an mg gunner will prone more and supress so that others walking down the road will be facing a dwindling enemy or a human who needs to keep in cover more.

Will talk to Ballard about tank perspective and see...
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: The Soldier on 04-12-2012, 21:12:53
Does the AI know te difference between cover and concealment?  I find myself constantly getting shot through hegegrows (namely on Point Du Hoc when an MG42 Lafayette gets set up in the farmhouse or a halftrack rolls in)and when I'm completely in a bush on singleplayer.
It is possibe fix this?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: ballard44 on 04-12-2012, 22:12:44
Does the AI know te difference between cover and concealment?
It is possibe fix this?

Bots can see through foliage. It doesn't exist to them.
Hiding in a bush or laying low in grass will do you nothing.
When playing against bots, you need to think that every single leaf has died and has fallen off.

It can be fixed, but would take a MASSIVE redo of the vegetation.



Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: The Soldier on 05-12-2012, 20:12:52
Thanks.  Maybe just make it so the AI can't see through any entity?  Just my 2 cents.
If that's even possible without rewriting the whole game, though.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Turkish007 on 05-12-2012, 21:12:21
I have this topic that makes me think its worht bringing back up again. No bots obey my commands; for example when I shout "get in!" when im in a vehicle, none of  the bots do. They did obey in BF2 and other mods. They seem to be only getting in when they have no other choice than walking, like if they are in thr middle of the desert, and a vehicle is passing by.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: The Soldier on 05-12-2012, 21:12:05
I think the AI has more of it's own mind now with the mod than it did before.  It might see walking as a better way to stay alive than jumping in a jeep in the middle of a combat zone.

Oh, and speaking of the AI, it doesn't see to follow attack commands (as commander) very well.  The squad leader stay god knows how far back, behind friendly lines, and just stays there while the AI squadmates spawn on him and get mown down 10 minutes later after walking to the attack point.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Turkish007 on 06-12-2012, 06:12:41
Bots dont enter any vehicles when they are fighting in the middle of the combat.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 06-12-2012, 17:12:38
I have this topic that makes me think its worht bringing back up again. No bots obey my commands; for example when I shout "get in!" when im in a vehicle, none of  the bots do. They did obey in BF2 and other mods. They seem to be only getting in when they have no other choice than walking, like if they are in thr middle of the desert, and a vehicle is passing by.
This issue is well known, sometimes in the future we'll fix it. But commo rose is usually overshadowed by other issues with maps, vehicles and weapons, so it doesn't receive much needed attention.

I think the AI has more of it's own mind now with the mod than it did before.  It might see walking as a better way to stay alive than jumping in a jeep in the middle of a combat zone.
Bots dont enter any vehicles when they are fighting in the middle of the combat.
Well, occasionally they do. I've seen enemy bots, completely ignoring me 3 meters away, just because they smelled a jeep nearby and were racing to take a seat.

Oh, and speaking of the AI, it doesn't see to follow attack commands (as commander) very well.  The squad leader stay god knows how far back, behind friendly lines, and just stays there while the AI squadmates spawn on him and get mown down 10 minutes later after walking to the attack point.
In SP Patch B you can see a rather successful attempt to prevent bots from spawning god knows where. Yes, it was done only for 3 maps - Cobra, Luttich and Tunis, but we plan to implement this on all the maps sooner or later.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Turkish007 on 04-01-2013, 19:01:46
Could you guys redo the SP support for Keren 64? It really sucks at the moment. Also please do the navmeshes for the 32 version, I love it but I cant play it since its rarely encountered on servers and there is no SP support for it at the moment  :(
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Turkish007 on 16-03-2013, 14:03:02
Also Crete SP is totally fucked. (Actually the map itsef was fucked when 2.45 came) Any chance to fix it for the next hotfiX?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 16-03-2013, 14:03:11
Sorry, but the map list of the next hotfix is frozen, no place for Crete.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Turkish007 on 16-03-2013, 15:03:11
Aww. :( Ok then, I can wait until another hotfix or the next version of FH2  :)
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Doc_Wade on 20-01-2015, 13:01:26
Hey !
I wonder if it's possible to obligate all squad members to spawn on the squad leader (only when you're the squad leader). Cause for now spawning seems to be really random (?) and in SP sometimes it's hard to take a flag when your squad spawn far away.
Thanks.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Josh094 on 20-01-2015, 13:01:08
Hey !
I wonder if it's possible to obligate all squad members to spawn on the squad leader (only when you're the squad leader). Cause for now spawning seems to be really random (?) and in SP sometimes it's hard to take a flag when your squad spawn far away.
Thanks.

That's actually a pretty clever idea.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Turkish007 on 20-01-2015, 16:01:55
^agreed, that would be a nice function to have
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 21-01-2015, 03:01:22
With the usual disclaimer of "according to my current knowledge", that is virtually impossible. We do can disable spawning on flags for AI bots, but only for the whole team, not for some specific bots like your squad mates or "all but squad leaders".

Anyway, in my experience, it's not that hard to make your subordinates to spawn on you. I even occasionally use the following "camping" strategy: say, you are the leader of a 5-6 men squad. Come close to the target flag, but without entering its flag zone since the defenders will smell this. Keep a low profile and wait for 3+ bots (about a half or more) of your squad to be dead. As soon as it happens, the chances that they all will spawn on you are very high. It may take a while, up to a couple of minutes if you are far away from any friendly flag, but they will come and then you all rush the flag. Overall, my rule of thumb for getting squad reinforcements is: be alive, do not sit in a tight place where bots can't navigate, do not sit in a vehicle with all the seats occupied.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: tempest on 24-01-2015, 08:01:17
Sorry, but the map list of the next hotfix is frozen, no place for Crete.

Don't suppose you can reveal when that'll be released?   ;)
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Doc_Wade on 26-01-2015, 20:01:33
Okay, thanks for the answers.
I already practice these kinds of behaviour in order to manipulate bots spawning  ;D But as you said, sometimes it takes time...

An other question is : would it be possible to obligate bots to use every artillery positions? One day I had points by spoting enemies with binoculars, I don't know if it's pure chance or if bots can obey to these orders?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 27-01-2015, 03:01:35
Sorry, but the map list of the next hotfix is frozen, no place for Crete.

Don't suppose you can reveal when that'll be released?   ;)
Unfortunately we still don't have proper navmeshes for Crete.


An other question is : would it be possible to obligate bots to use every artillery positions? One day I had points by spoting enemies with binoculars, I don't know if it's pure chance or if bots can obey to these orders?
When it comes to using alternative cameras like the spot one in artillery guns, AI is not very smart, to say it mildly. So actually bots shoot only at what is directly visible from their positions.

As for the reason behind the spotting score you got, the artillery system still tracks spots in singleplayer and assigns them to all active artillerymen, even if they are AI bots. That's why everything they hit while your spot is alive gives you spotting points. BTW, in the next release the spot tracking system will be turned off for AI artillerymen in order to save a few CPU ticks on processing the targets.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Darman on 27-01-2015, 17:01:29
BTW, in the next release the spot tracking system will be turned off for AI artillerymen in order to save a few CPU ticks on processing the targets.

Does this mean you prevent AI from effectivly using mortars?
Don't you dare!  :-\  I love AI Arty raining down randomly. So much immersion! You can't turn this off..
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 28-01-2015, 16:01:24
Don't worry, they'll keep raining explosive stuff down randomly. That sentence was about cutting a thing which bots don't understand anyway. The only differences in gameplay will be no more unfair spotting points and maybe one or two additional frames per second on the maps heavily laden with arty.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 29-01-2015, 21:01:16
Don't worry, they'll keep raining explosive stuff down randomly. That sentence was about cutting a thing which bots don't understand anyway. The only differences in gameplay will be no more unfair spotting points and maybe one or two additional frames per second on the maps heavily laden with arty.
Nice to hear for frames,I realy need them
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 31-01-2015, 15:01:02
How high is the Operation Cobra on the fix list? This currently my #1 favourite map in the Coop mode, but it has quite many glitches - especially on the German side: bots generally drive too "carefully", getting stuck on the bridges, bomb crates, even the smallest upward slopes (driving back and forth).

Btw - I did little tweaking on this map, namely replaced some of the 88s with the shield with 88's w/o the shield (flak18ns_fr), but the bots doesn't seem to respond to the enemy planes. Does this require some further AI tweaking?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 02-02-2015, 16:02:38
Fine, fine, fine, I must confess: while tweaking vehicle weapons for FH 2.48, I made one tiny mistake, and as a result in 2.48 bots don't shoot the 88's at airplanes. You can fix it locally by going into mods/fh2/objects_vehicles_server.zip and finding Vehicles\Land\Common\ai\ammo_aa_4.inc file in there. In that file delete the line which starts with "weaponTemplate.setExplosionRadius" and they will shoot the 88's again. BTW, gun shields don't obstruct vision of the bots, so it doesn't matter if it's a shield-less 88 or not.

How high is the Operation Cobra on the fix list? This currently my #1 favourite map in the SP mode, but it has quite many glitches - especially on the German side: bots generally drive too "carefully", getting stuck on the bridges, bomb crates, even the smallest upward slopes.
Oh, come on! Operation Cobra is far from being the map with the worst pathfinding. Try St Vith or Ramelle if you truly want to enjoy more than a half of your team's vehicles being stuck somewhere between the main base and the front line :)
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Darman on 02-02-2015, 18:02:24
Try Bastogne as Defenders and wait for the German tanks to arrive on the front line... Or wait for armored support as German... Nope, they are all stuck in the woods 50m from the base. The Armor driven assault never really happens. Bastogne is one of the greatest maps out there, yet in COOP it can never unfold its full potential (thats also because you can't assign more than 48 bots to team 1 (Axis), but thats another story).

That is something that needs to be fixed. Never had major issues of that scale on St Vith, Cobra or Ramelle.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 02-02-2015, 20:02:24
.
Title: Increased artillery spot point time out ? + Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 27-02-2015, 17:02:37
Hi gavrant and bot fans !

I was playing with the artillery spotting on Bastogne. Thought I might be able to create an artillery request position (the red explosion icon that appears on the map) by getting up high and pointing my bonoc's across the map. But does not work.

Then I thought why not just drive in a fast vehicle near to where I want the artillery, spot from there then just drive back to the artillery guns to open fire ? A better idea, but unfortunately there is a time out on the spot position so there's never enough time to get back.

How about for SP /Coop (started from MP menu) increasing the time out or doing away with it altogether ? That way the player can spot positions at their leisure and then use the artillery when they get back to the rear of the map. An entire minigame in itself, and a worthy replacement for lack of AI commander artillery ? Not sure if the spot positions disappear at death but that could be an extra incentive to try and stay alive  :)

Fine, fine, fine, I must confess: while tweaking vehicle weapons for FH 2.48, I made one tiny mistake, and as a result in 2.48 bots don't shoot the 88's at airplanes. You can fix it locally by going into mods/fh2/objects_vehicles_server.zip and finding Vehicles\Land\Common\ai\ammo_aa_4.inc file in there. In that file delete the line which starts with "weaponTemplate.setExplosionRadius" and they will shoot the 88's again. BTW, gun shields don't obstruct vision of the bots, so it doesn't matter if it's a shield-less 88 or not.

How high is the Operation Cobra on the fix list? This currently my #1 favourite map in the SP mode, but it has quite many glitches - especially on the German side: bots generally drive too "carefully", getting stuck on the bridges, bomb crates, even the smallest upward slopes.
Oh, come on! Operation Cobra is far from being the map with the worst pathfinding. Try St Vith or Ramelle if you truly want to enjoy more than a half of your team's vehicles being stuck somewhere between the main base and the front line :)

I usually (If I'm not shouting and cussing at bot soldiers who will never hear me  ;D) treat that as a logistics problem...

"Tank X has broken down and/or driver has gone mad from battle fatigue and needs to be positioned correctly again by an engineer ..."

"Tank Y has a busted track that needs replacing ... then ... it can be test drivin by an engineer onto the correct path."

Really if you stop cussing at them, bots can provide endless ideas for imaginary battle scenarios :P.

Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 14-03-2015, 21:03:45
Another artillery related one. A request. Give mortar kits binoculars then the mortar can be dropped and artillery request can be put in. Then this kit can be as good to use as the artillery tank on one of the desert maps which I use with recon or sniper kit  8)
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 14-03-2015, 21:03:23
But that will be good in SP but cant be used in MP
Title: Re: Increased artillery spot point time out ? + Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 15-03-2015, 05:03:33
How about for SP /Coop (started from MP menu) increasing the time out or doing away with it altogether ? That way the player can spot positions at their leisure and then use the artillery when they get back to the rear of the map. An entire minigame in itself, and a worthy replacement for lack of AI commander artillery ? Not sure if the spot positions disappear at death but that could be an extra incentive to try and stay alive  :)
Another artillery related one. A request. Give mortar kits binoculars then the mortar can be dropped and artillery request can be put in. Then this kit can be as good to use as the artillery tank on one of the desert maps which I use with recon or sniper kit  8)
Don't know. On the one hand, these suggestions sound rather "gamely", especially the artilleryman running to a spot and back to the mortar. On the other hand, both these requests are rather easy to do, and I don't see any harm in increasing the time-to-live for spots up to, say, 5 mins in singleplayer instead of the current 2.


But that will be good in SP but cant be used in MP
It's the least of the problems here, we already have a lot of stuff behaving differently in SP and MP, like some of the explosives flying slightly further in SP (stupid bots constantly underthrew thermite grenades on Pointe du Hoc), the Garand rifle reloaded by pressing R, the shotgun in most of the Bazooka kits, and so on.
Title: Re: Increased artillery spot point time out ? + Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 15-03-2015, 11:03:58
I usually (If I'm not shouting and cussing at bot soldiers who will never hear me  ;D) treat that as a logistics problem...

"Tank X has broken down and/or driver has gone mad from battle fatigue and needs to be positioned correctly again by an engineer ..."

"Tank Y has a busted track that needs replacing ... then ... it can be test drivin by an engineer onto the correct path."

Nice! Sometimes the German base reminds me of a Wehrmacht training ground. Makes sense.. kinda.
Title: Re: Increased artillery spot point time out ? + Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 15-03-2015, 19:03:41
I usually (If I'm not shouting and cussing at bot soldiers who will never hear me  ;D) treat that as a logistics problem...

"Tank X has broken down and/or driver has gone mad from battle fatigue and needs to be positioned correctly again by an engineer ..."

"Tank Y has a busted track that needs replacing ... then ... it can be test drivin by an engineer onto the correct path."

Nice! Sometimes the German base reminds me of a Wehrmacht training ground. Makes sense.. kinda.

Bots ... endless amusement   :D

How about for SP /Coop (started from MP menu) increasing the time out or doing away with it altogether ? That way the player can spot positions at their leisure and then use the artillery when they get back to the rear of the map. An entire minigame in itself, and a worthy replacement for lack of AI commander artillery ? Not sure if the spot positions disappear at death but that could be an extra incentive to try and stay alive  :)
Another artillery related one. A request. Give mortar kits binoculars then the mortar can be dropped and artillery request can be put in. Then this kit can be as good to use as the artillery tank on one of the desert maps which I use with recon or sniper kit  8)
Don't know. On the one hand, these suggestions sound rather "gamely", especially the artilleryman running to a spot and back to the mortar. On the other hand, both these requests are rather easy to do, and I don't see any harm in increasing the time-to-live for spots up to, say, 5 mins in singleplayer instead of the current 2.

Sounds good. The mortar pickup kit involves a lot less running around.

I also notice that the raised artillery and mortar positions (so bots using them have extended range) seem to mess up targeting to artillery spot locations using the dials, although this could be something weird going on with the Fall of Tobruk map that I noticed it on. If its the raised artillery positions, I wonder if there's a way of fixing that, or lowering them to normal level ? Whatever you decide ... I can always create a personal build of FH.
Title: Re: Increased artillery spot point time out ? + Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 18-03-2015, 12:03:12
I also notice that the raised artillery and mortar positions (so bots using them have extended range) seem to mess up targeting to artillery spot locations using the dials, although this could be something weird going on with the Fall of Tobruk map that I noticed it on. If its the raised artillery positions, I wonder if there's a way of fixing that, or lowering them to normal level ? Whatever you decide ... I can always create a personal build of FH.
If you mean the British mortars on FoT, the dials of the "AI" 3 inch mortar are broken which makes them useless for human players. This will be fixed in the next release. All other artillery guns are "spot-compatible".
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 20-03-2015, 18:03:16
Wow, amazing as always gavrant  8) I'll look forward to the fixes.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 22-03-2015, 21:03:48
Is there a way to support / donate to individual developer? Paypal?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 23-03-2015, 22:03:06
So. Smoke grenade thing. Make bots target the grenade ? Think this is the target weighting thing ? If they're too busy shooting at the grenade then the AI is effectivly blinded. Had a sort of eureka moment with this. Not sure if its as amazing as I think, but probably potentially more elegant than spawning a big transparent sphere model  :P
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 24-03-2015, 12:03:32
AFAIK, bots don't shoot at anything not manned by an enemy soldier.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 25-03-2015, 23:03:39
Could the "position" be manned by an AI soldier ?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 25-03-2015, 23:03:12
With some Python scripting, you can find the position where the smoke grenade landed and spawn an invisible "vehicle" there (actually, 2 invisible vehicles for each of the teams), even probably put a spare bot into those vehicles, but considering the very limited classification of targets for AI, it will be very hard to make all the bots to concentrate only on those invisible vehicles.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 08-04-2015, 22:04:50
A'ha. So what if the invisible vehicle was about the size and shape of a smoke cloud ? Could it be passthrough for everything but bot vision (target raycasting) ?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 27-04-2015, 22:04:57
So... what SP/Coop tweaks we can expect in the next patch?
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 29-04-2015, 00:04:32
Usual boring things: few general fixes, few general optimizations, overhauled this, overhauled that, several reworked or updated maps :)
A traditional change log will be published shortly before the release.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 03-05-2015, 16:05:18
It would be nice, if the bots could actually use the vehicles parked in barns and under shelter. This is a bit of a problem in certain late war maps (Operation Goodwood, Vossenack...). Thanks
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Knochenlutscher on 08-06-2015, 10:06:00
I made an alternate Vossenack, where some Vehicles are almost never unused, even if under Shelter.
I can't recall the changes I made, but as soon as I return to default setup, they act as non-interesting to bots and that surplus to 70% of the inventory.
I was simply cloning some of the spawnboxes, on others I gave them new Boxes, the mix of
both made it. My version has no unused Vehicle, though it is a Tank frenzy. Main problem on Vossenack for Bots in Vehicles, is everything East of Church area, the objects are good enough for Human to drive trhough with a Vehicle, but for Bots this area is a messy adventure, they stuck at literally every object placed a bit on the streets. Ever wondered why the rush-out on Vossenack Axis Main is stuck before the wooden fence, it is one of this Wooden fence objects possibly seen as unpassable. When trying to drive trough you actually sense some object you pass, not like the other passable fence objects.
In notepad I've seen that this fenceobject is littered all across the Map and the reason for some areas not passable for Bots, although Navmeshed, as they want to pass.
I tried 2 version removing them completely, or changing with passable fences. Returning to stock layout I can't pass one of this section though, my tank just slides upwards on that fence. It is the vertical object of that fence part that remains unpassable/solid and causing laggs.
By removing that fence object, the Map has a 50% rush, that you can enjoy playing. The consolidated Vehicles spawns are surplus additions to the default very slow going Map.

They get trapped before entering neat points, Axis at entrance, where the Anti-Tank barrier resides, you can free this area from litter, 3 up to 5 vehicles still stuck, sth. initially slowing down the push of the Map, so I think it is some sort of neat point of Vehicle Navmesh causing culprit. To really get hell-of a tanking Map, it needs to get rid of such tiny hangers, more Bot-friendly Navmesh, but that calls for less litter in Church area and really closer look at all objects and make them passable, luckily this Map didn't need much overhaul, just a bit consolidation.
Apart from that it is a careless Map, I can only recall one major thing that needed overhaul, the 88 on that hill trench.
needs some lifting, as the bushes/vegetation cover the gunsight aiming, I put her on an
palette object slightly lifted, now the gunsight is free and good to use.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: gavrant on 09-06-2015, 16:06:34
Don't worry, in the next FH2 release you will see a reworked version of singleplayer on Vossenack, with all the issues mentioned above mostly fixed.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Knochenlutscher on 14-06-2015, 02:06:41
Awsome, really happy this Map get's the help.
Thanks for the Info Gavrant
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 14-06-2015, 18:06:41
Thanks gavrant!
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: nysä on 09-02-2016, 12:02:48
Short gameplay test @ Vossenack: great AI improvements, a less lemming-like and focused on surprising and chasing down the enemy.

Major improvement regarding the AI-manned vehicles as well, but there is still a slight problem: both, American and German tanks (esp. between Kreuzreck-Unterdorf) are getting stuck on the curves; especially if there is a stone wall on the side.

BIG thanks to all the developers/testers for all the hard work, and also listening to our feedback and complaining   :)
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 12-02-2016, 18:02:35
Thanks as well from me  ;D.

One thing that could be added in some guide somewhere or in the launcher is a description of the broken (or just badly setup by DICE) sliders for SP/Coop. This must really confuse new players who don't have the "inside" information. I have not got an installation to check here but I think it's fixed in other mods like Project Reality.

Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 27-02-2016, 19:02:07
Re. my previous post. It looks like these sliders have been seriously broken in a number of mods (possibly bar Project Reality) and the result I've seen blamed on EA/DICE  ::) ! I just played Euro Forces after installing BF2 to see if it would work on my Asus Transformer (it does with bots <=8 ) and the sliders actually make sense ! Bot slider goes from 1 to 48. Setting the ratio slider actually does set the bot balance as intended, rather than having to have it at 100 which is ridiculous; slider @ 50% gives 24 bots each side with 48 bots. These sliders work fine in Euro Forces, I suggest they are fixed in FH.

EDIT: I looked at this again and it could be that the slider actually works up to a certain number of bots (probably 16/32/48) and then becomes inaccurate/breaks above that.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Turkish007 on 10-11-2018, 19:11:58
I have two suggestions:

How about making commander artillery load faster in singleplayer? In some maps, some flags which are heavily armed with machine guns, AT and AA are defended so well by the bots it is often impossible for the other team's bots to capture the flag. I often use the commander position's artillery to weaken these kinds of capture points, but it would add much more fun and ease if the artillery loaded faster.

The other suggestion is to make bots remain in transport vehicles like trucks or APC's. The bots do not get in the vehicle sometimes when I call them to. They will often only man the machine guns in APC's and will not get in when it comes to trucks.
Also when I manage to fill the truck/APC and drive, the bots will often quickly desert the vehicle even in the simplest rifle fire from far away enemies, spoiling my plans that initially got me to gather them in a transport vehicle.

I think these improvements would make singleplayer a lot more enjoyable.
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 20-06-2019, 21:06:43
I have two suggestions:

How about making commander artillery load faster in singleplayer? In some maps, some flags which are heavily armed with machine guns, AT and AA are defended so well by the bots it is often impossible for the other team's bots to capture the flag. I often use the commander position's artillery to weaken these kinds of capture points, but it would add much more fun and ease if the artillery loaded faster.

The other suggestion is to make bots remain in transport vehicles like trucks or APC's. The bots do not get in the vehicle sometimes when I call them to. They will often only man the machine guns in APC's and will not get in when it comes to trucks.
Also when I manage to fill the truck/APC and drive, the bots will often quickly desert the vehicle even in the simplest rifle fire from far away enemies, spoiling my plans that initially got me to gather them in a transport vehicle.

I think these improvements would make singleplayer a lot more enjoyable.

First one could help re-balance some maps when playing solo, but the dev's also have to take into account Coop play which makes the artillery timeout all the more critical.

Second one. Good one ! Project Reality mod does this. So on APC's the gunner position is locked for the bots. Everyone else can get out but the gunner stays in. If you really want to rudely turf out the gunner then the player can switch to his position to kick him out. I'm not sure if it's possible to encourage bots to stay in vehicles. I think they do more in PR but I could be imagining that. To get around that myself when playing solo I rely on the squad respawn.

MY SUGGESTION: Add this python plugin to Coop/Solo to restore artillery and supply drops - https://www.moddb.com/games/battlefield-2/addons/advanced-ai-commander-plugin
Title: Re: SUGGESTIONS FOR THE AI DEV(S)
Post by: LuckyOne on 22-06-2019, 12:06:05

MY SUGGESTION: Add this python plugin to Coop/Solo to restore artillery and supply drops - https://www.moddb.com/games/battlefield-2/addons/advanced-ai-commander-plugin

Excellent idea! I have recently reinstalled BF2142 and SP is much more fun when the commander is active