Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Africa maps => Feedback => Siege of Tobruk => Topic started by: Toddel on 29-03-2009, 12:03:50
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"If you have a suggestions or want to give us some Feedback about this Map you can Post it here!"
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It's possible to have a lot of fun playing Siege of Tobruk, but in the other hand, it can be sometimes very frustrating map. Most of this frustration I have, is because of the bofors AA guns. Everyone knows that bofors is a mad raping machine if placed in a wrong place. In my opinion, almost all of the boforses in this map should need some small tweaking to make them less infantry bane. I don't know if mappers intention was to make all the boforses in this map mostly versus infantry, but giving too much view for those guns really take out the fun when they are pretty quick to repair and have infinite ammo.
So here is my suggestions:
1. Firstly Forte Solaros bofors. That thing is so badly placed that i would like to cry. It can keep attacks with trucks and halftracks from southern hills totally at bay. Also if any infantry makes it to the south ditches, or even to the flag, bofors can still easily take them out. The worst thing is that if axis captures Tobruk HQ flag (middle one), bofors can cover most of the approach from HQ flag to Forte Solaro flag.
Simply just remove this bofors altogether. Does there really have to be 3 guns at the front line when there is only one stuka? No.
2. Tobruk HQ bofors. No that bad, but still can be used to rape Forte Solaros and the HQ flag area aswell. Maybe add some objects to block the view of that thing, like done here:
(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1875/nimetnc.png) (http://img523.imageshack.us/i/nimetnc.png/)
3. Forte Airentes bofors is not really a bad problem but one can cover the area between Bir Baccara and Tobruk HQ with it by shooting into the horizon.
4 Tobruk Outskirts bofors. This one can be a real nuisance. It can totally cover the northern approach to the Outskirts (best way to attack as infantry), which can be seen here:
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5092/bf22009072017462154.png) (http://img263.imageshack.us/i/bf22009072017462154.png/)
Again, objects to block view or maybe replacement of the gun to do the fix.
Which can also be done, is to dig in some bofors' like the one in Bir Baccara flag. Truly a perfectly placed bofors. Only can shoot into the air and the view to flag is blocked by objects:
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9577/bf22009072017391918.png) (http://img504.imageshack.us/i/bf22009072017391918.png/)
That's about all I have in mind this time.
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And replace one or two of those shitty italian tanks with pz3! Last times(4-5) Ive been playing this map the germans have never brooken through the first line and dearby bleed to death.
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I've had the complete opposite experience with this map. The Brits usually get slaughtered and the first line of flags fall within 10 minutes.
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Stonechater is right, recently the aussies win more often than the Germans, dunno why.
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Germans have über tankers and ace pilots, but not much normal infantry. Germans can't get to trenches and if they can, they won't survive long.
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There might be some truth to that. The key to winning Tobruk (as Germans) is cleverly supported infantry and artillery.
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Five bofors against one stuka doesn't seem fair. I support the idea of (at least) digging in those guns.
Germands can break trough quite easily. They only need artillery and a dedicated spotter, full infantry squad and tanks moving in the field - there's no way aussies can stop that.
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I know it's not completely necessary, but are there plans to change the Panzer3 (Early)s to the correct model of Panzer3s for this map? I'm not entirely sure what version that is, maybe E or G? Or will that be corrected when the mod moves to Early Western/Blitzkrieg/Early Eastern Front and the correct version will be made and then maybe reskinned into North African paint jobs?
Also, I think the Pz3 (Early) has more armor on the front than the Pz3 (Late), where it should be the opposite or they should be equal, right?
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Also, I think the Pz3 (Early) has more armor on the front than the Pz3 (Late), where it should be the opposite or they should be equal, right?
Ausf. A through C: 15 mm all around (except top 10 mm and bottom 5 mm)
D through G: 30 mm all around (top & bottom still 10/5 mm)
H: sides 30 mm, front & rear 30 mm + 30 mm additional plate (total 60 mm)
J: sides 30 mm, front & rear 50 mm solid plate
J1, L, M: sides 30 mm, rear 50 mm, front 50 mm + 20 mm additional plate (total 70 mm)
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_3#Armor
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Also, I think the Pz3 (Early) has more armor on the front than the Pz3 (Late), where it should be the opposite or they should be equal, right?
Ausf. A through C: 15 mm all around (except top 10 mm and bottom 5 mm)
D through G: 30 mm all around (top & bottom still 10/5 mm)
H: sides 30 mm, front & rear 30 mm + 30 mm additional plate (total 60 mm)
J: sides 30 mm, front & rear 50 mm solid plate
J1, L, M: sides 30 mm, rear 50 mm, front 50 mm + 20 mm additional plate (total 70 mm)
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_3#Armor
Right, I meant in game. In game, I think the J-Early has that 20mm additional plate instead of the J-Late (on all maps, I think). Which inadvertently makes Siege of Tobruk harder for the 2-pounder armed Aussies (right now, you need 3 or more frontal, non-deflected hits from a 2lber to kill a Pz3J[early]). If we can't have the proper version (I think E or G) for this map, at least make it's placeholder not unrealistically powerful. I know it was probably just something that slipped through the cracks and is probably already fixed (the extra armor plate thing), so I'm not too worried about it.
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Is this your impression from gameplay or did you check the code?
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IIRC it was reported earlier and confirmed that pz3 late recieves dmg from 2pdr in frontal armor while the early version's front is impenetrable to those AT guns.
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That's one hell of a first post from emi'.
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IIRC it was reported earlier and confirmed that pz3 late recieves dmg from 2pdr in frontal armor while the early version's front is impenetrable to those AT guns.
Sorry, but just looking at the armour thickness, that's just... retarded. (Have not played enough as a tanker to confirm that - I just feel that Crusader 1's and 2pdrs always one-shot me whenever I'm driving a Pz3.)
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Is this your impression from gameplay or did you check the code?
Gameplay.
IIRC it was reported earlier and confirmed that pz3 late recieves dmg from 2pdr in frontal armor while the early version's front is impenetrable to those AT guns.
Also, I remembered that report. I'm fairly certain it was for this version and it was said that it was being looked into. In fact, I think the original post cited SoT as an example.
I'm curious whether or not the armor was fixed, or at least checked that it's right.
EDIT: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=160.0
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I think the Germans lose more often when the server isn't full. Then they just don't have the manpower to fix all holes.
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That map crushes to desktop like hell. Here is the battlerecorder file.
http://88.198.52.198/rotate_demo/
ctrl+f please search that name.
auto_2010_06_07_20_56_41.bf2demo
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I think the Germans lose more often when the server isn't full. Then they just don't have the manpower to fix all holes.
The problem lies truly on the way they play. If they focus on one point. they can easily break trough the allied lines
This is like the Totalize for the germans. you play with your head. not with your desire to shoot some aussies
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The fact is that it's quite hard to 'concentrate' forces since the two german main bases are separated and the tanks will always be split up. Other thing is that most of the lighter tanks get destroyed before they get off the slopes. Pz3s even if they survive are mostly badly damaged and when they close up to a flag they get taken out by frag hungry infantry...
I agree that it's not supposed to be a walk in the park but it's really frustrating for the gerries... and ausseis.
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The fact is that it's quite hard to 'concentrate' forces since the two german main bases are separated and the tanks will always be split up. Other thing is that most of the lighter tanks get destroyed before they get off the slopes. Pz3s even if they survive are mostly badly damaged and when they close up to a flag they get taken out by frag hungry infantry...
I agree that it's not supposed to be a walk in the park but it's really frustrating for the gerries... and ausseis.
how bout one main base???
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Meh ... I liked it more before the engeneer kit was limited. It would have been better to place 1 or two more german pak 35 near their main (noone uses the one there is, but it is very useful). Now the map has become german biased...
Many rounds later my opinion is still the same : the axis had a huge number of tanks, 1 stuka and artillery, the allied had no planes, a few tanks, artillery with 1 billions mobile targets and some cannons here and there. And now you are taking the wrenches away ?... Most of the time, even if the team scores are even, it is total rape for the allied... Why wouldn't you set a bleed instead ?
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this map needs M11/39"s
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Most of the time, even if the team scores are even, it is total rape for the allied... Why wouldn't you set a bleed instead ?
You summarized a huge flaw with the original fh2 push design :) earlier, the attacking team could "out kill" the defenders, just by sitting back and frag them instead of attacking the flags. For the upcoming patch we have redesigned this and attackers are now forced to attack the flags until the last one is taken, then - and only then - can they win. Neither team can therefor "out kill" the enemy and we shift the focus from frags to area control. (the bleed is much more rapid than what one team possibly can manage kill ratios).
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Alright, let's get straight down to business. I think this map has great potential to be awesome on the 128 server but right now, in my opinion it's by a wide margin the most unenjoyable map in the mod. Nevermind Sidi Rezegh, which gets a lot of hate (some legitimate, some not), Siege of Tobruk is the only map I simply don't enjoying playing.
I can appreciate that the map isn't really supposed to be balanced. It's the siege of Tobruk for God's sakes, of course it's going to be tough on the Allies, but it simply isn't fun normally and since128 play is only going to get more popular, I feel this map's days are numbered unless it's given a bit of love to make it a more fair fight. The vehicle loadout really isn't all that bad: the Axis tank attack is immense but not impossible to defeat, the air attack is formidable but not a certain victory. But where and when the Allies get their vehicles seems a little unfair, and there are other aspects of this map that make it thoroughly unenjoyable more often than not.
Much of the problems lie in the fact that Australian reinforcements arrive much too late, while the Germans don't lose any vehicles as the map wears on. It's tricky to avoid all the Stuka and Mc200 fire when all flags are Allied, but not impossible - it simply is impossible at the end of the map, and that's not right. Some of you may fire back with "Well, the Australians win more often than not" - this is true, but it's only true because if you're in a German tank, it's better for your score to sit on the hill at the middle 2 flags and fire endlessly into the final Aussie flag, than to actually go down and cap it. There is of course the odd Allied victory where the Germans don't even see the Allied main, but more often than not they cruise right up to it and spend a good 20 minutes pulverizing it and run out of tickets, and it's not really an Allied victory when half the players ragequit before the end of the map.
The vehicles themselves aren't really the problem - yes, the M11/39 sucks, but it's supposed to suck, and in capable hands it's more than a match for most of the German armor and on occasion can take out a Panzer III or IV if lucky. The M13/40 and Matilda are also valuable additions, the Matilda because it's impervious to just about anything the German tanks have and the M13/40 for the ability to throw HE shells. But this help comes too late. The Australians have two M11/39s at the start of the round, but they are as far from the front line as the German tanks are, meaning there is just about zero time to prepare any kind of defense. The other two tanks spawn much too late to be of any importance. By the time more Allied armor comes, every tank in the German army, plus two bomb-dropping planes, plus the LeFH, plus commander artillery is trained on one tiny section of the map, and I've no problem saying that a real counter-attack for the Allies is as close to impossible as it could possibly be.
The amount of firepower the Germans can send into the final Allied flag is simply unfair. Yes, the Australians have a pair of 25-pounders, but both are taken out immediately by the German planes, and having a friendly in the AA for you really makes no difference with anglemod and the general uselessness of the Breda. If you are in the 25-pounder at the middle of the map, and are taken out by the Stuka, you must: respawn (10-20 seconds), hope the engineer kit is available (and if not go get an artillery kit, 10-20 seconds), run back to the 25-pounder (10-20 seconds), repair it (30-45 seconds), and do all of this without being killed immediately. In other words, it takes about 2-3 minutes to succesfully repair your artillery, (assuming you can in the first place). Meanwhile, the Stuka and Mc200 can fly from your arty back to the airfield to resupply and then back to your 25-pounder to kill it again in less than 30 seconds. And repeat. Compare this to the German artillery, which cannot be taken out due to server rules and ABC zones. The Matilda could very well be the key to this map if it spawned earlier, but it just cannot be effective since the Germans not only get a Stuka, but their fighter also has bombs and an MG that can destroy the Matilda in less than a second's burst of MG fire. Bear in mind both planes (I believe) respawn faster than the Matilda, and can resupply with bombs much faster than the Matilda can drive to safety. Again, it's an awkward complaint because of course the Stuka should kill the Matilda more often than not, but there is no chance to prepare cover. On average, I find the Matilda is capable of reaching the middle flags from the last one about 1 in every 8 or 9 maps, and this depends heavily on whether or not the Germans don't have a commander dropping magical bombs on the Allied main every 2 minutes.
Again, the vehicle and weapons load-out is not necessarily unfair. It's a tough, but definitely possible victory for the Aussies, but the "when" and "where" the Allies get their vehicles and weapons make it simply too hard most of the time. They get 2 mobile 2-pounders (on trucks) in their main, but they only get them when that flag is the only one left to be taken, so what use are they then? No use, actually. The Matilda spawns at the same time (actually, later, since like on Olympus there seems to be some stupid spawn delay for this tank that doesn't affect other tanks), so assuming you can even drive it out of the base without being blasted by commander artillery, you're Stuka bait the second that you do. Note that the Matilda also spawns about ten feet from the Allied artillery, meaning even Germans not intending to kill the Matilda will still kill it just because they threw arty at the 25-pounder. The rules on the only server that ever plays this map are that planes can attack static targets in bases/uncap flags, but the location of the artillery means that even a Stuka pilot genuinely trying to play by the rules can't help but murder take out a load of collateral damage, which should technically have him kicked.
This map also seems a little too cramped in some places. For a wide open desert, it doesn't offer much flanking opportunity, and just opening up the Out-of-Bounds lines by a hundred feet either side of the map would do wonders. It seems a tad unfair that the Matilda has to drive right up a road lined with Germans, when there is miles and miles of open, get-back-to-the-fight-you-mongrel space it could be using. Siege of Tobruk additionally suffers from Lebisey syndrome, where the flags are arranged in such a way that one flag is cappable within rifle-distance of an uncap flag, which you can only legally fire into when your team takes two other flags half a map away. (Not that this stops 40 Germans on a hill firing HE and MG fire into the main, even if by some miracle someone manages to recap a 2nd-line flag).
So, how do we make this all more fun?
For starters, delete commanders. They aren't needed on most maps, and they are especially useless here for the Aussies and overpowered for the Germans. None of the Australian tanks will stay alive long enough for supply drops to be useful, whilst all of the German tanks are hard enough to take out with 2-pounders that it seems unfair that if you don't kill a tank it's immediately repaired by driving over to a magical crate dropped from the sky. The Germans have artillery that will never run out of ammo and cannot be harmed by the Allies - they don't need the ability to saturate one flag per minute for the entire round with commander arty. Just get rid of them and the endless artillery barrages completely ruining the fighting at the last flags.
Secondly, change the cap radius of the final flag. Almost unbelievably, the flag zone makes it simple for Germans to cap but near enough impossible for allies to recap, since there are a dozen buildings on the German side of the flag that infantry can hide in (with zero HE ability for the 3 of the 4 Allied tanks, meaning those infantry must be cleared out manually, and done with the what, 11 or 12 seconds you have to recap?). Half the time the minimap makes it so awkward you can't tell what's just spawned or even tell the enemy has captured the flag if you didn't hear the "We're getting fucked over" or notice your tickets suddenly evaporating. Requiring the Australians desperately trying to recap the last flag to run across wide open desert (immediately, because the tickets go down FAST), while the Germans get some cozy buildings to drink stolen tea in seems an unnecessary kick in the nuts.
Thirdly, some edits to the vehicle load out.
1) Give the Aussies the Matilda the second the Germans have captured the first 3 flags. Nevermind only spawning it when all 3 first line and 1 second line flags are gone (and again, these conditions must be met before you can even begin to wait for the Matilda, it isn't automatic).
2) Give the Aussies an extra M11/39 and M13/40, both spawning at middle flags. These tanks are still likely to be killed quickly, but at least the Aussies can have some front line armor support at the start of the map.
3) The mobile 2-pounders need to spawn sooner. Maybe not at the start of the round, but apart from the 1 they get at the middle front flag, they are totally useless spawning when they do because the out-of-bounds zones make it literally impossible for those trucks to be driving anywhere other than straight up the middle of the map, to be killed immediately. I don't know if the Australians at Tobruk had any, but a handful of Italian 47mm anti-tank guns (mobile) would be great as well, thanks to their HE ability.
I'll try and think of some more ways to improve this map later on. I know this was a pretty negative post but I only want the best for all the maps and I give plenty of glowing endorsements of everything in FH2, so it's only fair to call out a map for being not quite up to scratch and nowhere near as good as it should be.
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I don't think you're being too negative Andrew, I think it's a very fair assessment of a map which needs some improvement. And thank you for the incredibly well thought out feedback on the map. I feel the same way about it, but just haven't found the time to get my ideas written out.
The only thing that I would add to the change list is un-limiting the Allied engineer kits. I'm assuming they are limited to keep the number of AT mines down, which if used correctly could absolutely stop the Germans dead. However, an incredibly unpleasant side effect of this is that the Allies also are very, very limited in their ability to repair destroyed statics. On a map where keeping the AT guns running is absolutely PIVOTAL, not having enough wrenches is a real show stopper.
Assuming limiting the AT mines is in fact the reason behind the limited engineer kit, a possible compromise could be to have two engineer kits, one with mines, and one with a wrench. Maybe add a little something extra to mix things up, like giving grenades to the wrench engineer. Idk, just something different to make the map more appealing.
As a engineer myself, I find the limiting of the engineer kits both biased and blatantly wrong. I hereby demand that they are given the freedom to roam unhindered. ;)
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or at least increase the number of engeneer kits avaliable.
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The only thing that I would add to the change list is un-limiting the Allied engineer kits. I'm assuming they are limited to keep the number of AT mines down, which if used correctly could absolutely stop the Germans dead. However, an incredibly unpleasant side effect of this is that the Allies also are very, very limited in their ability to repair destroyed statics. On a map where keeping the AT guns running is absolutely PIVOTAL, not having enough wrenches is a real show stopper.
Hehe, you'll be surprised what the reason was, then. A few patches back, the 2-Pounder was totally stopping the Germans from ever conquering even one flag on SoT, so back then the engi kits were limited, so it was harder for the allies to actually keep them repaired at all times. The mines thing was a nice side effect.
Since that patch, armor values, damage and what not has been changed, however, making the balance between 2-Pounder and German tanks on SoT totally different. Therefore making the engineer kit limit obsolete. I agree it can go unlimited now.
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Are there any plans to do anything with this map in the future? Played a round of it today with 50 people and it played out exactly the same as it always does.
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Removing the bombs from the Italian fighter plane wpulöd be a first step. Also the Brits should get their Bofors back, instead of those italian guns. I understand that they have been added for extra fluff and historical accuracy. In fact its really cool that the Brits use captured Italian guns, but the probelm is they are even worse as the Flak38 (which is really bad allready), they air defence especially on maps like Alam Halfa anf SoT.
What could and should be changed is that the capzones of the first 3 flags should be made accesible by tanks far more easily, this the absolute number one reason for the Brit inf getting spankilled all the time. OF course if this get implemented the vehicle layout would need to be rebalanced.
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Haven't had a chance to give this map much feedback since 2.45. I'll start where Chrisite left off because he was pretty thorough.
So, how do we make this all more fun?
Secondly, change the cap radius of the final flag. Almost unbelievably, the flag zone makes it simple for Germans to cap but near enough impossible for allies to recap, since there are a dozen buildings on the German side of the flag that infantry can hide in (with zero HE ability for the 3 of the 4 Allied tanks, meaning those infantry must be cleared out manually, and done with the what, 11 or 12 seconds you have to recap?). Half the time the minimap makes it so awkward you can't tell what's just spawned or even tell the enemy has captured the flag if you didn't hear the "We're getting fucked over" or notice your tickets suddenly evaporating. Requiring the Australians desperately trying to recap the last flag to run across wide open desert (immediately, because the tickets go down FAST), while the Germans get some cozy buildings to drink stolen tea in seems an unnecessary kick in the nuts.
I can agree with this as one of the reasons this map is a rape fest for the Aussies. Natty's idea to make it so the Germans have to cap the Aussies out is good in theory, but this last flag was never made as a capable flag, it was always an uncapable main base (or at least a flag the mapper never thought the teams would be fighting at) Making the flag radius bigger, as well as placing some more statics with the idea in mind that it's going to be a capable flag, would help make the fight at the last flag more fun.
Thirdly, some edits to the vehicle load out.
1) Give the Aussies the Matilda the second the Germans have captured the first 3 flags. Nevermind only spawning it when all 3 first line and 1 second line flags are gone (and again, these conditions must be met before you can even begin to wait for the Matilda, it isn't automatic).
This would really help the counter attack. The Matilda is great but it can barely spawn in with all the arty and bombs, let alone be moved out of the base to help any sort of counter attack.
2) Give the Aussies an extra M11/39 and M13/40, both spawning at middle flags. These tanks are still likely to be killed quickly, but at least the Aussies can have some front line armor support at the start of the map.
I have no problems with more tanks for the aussies, maybe just one extra tho. Being able to get the Matilda out of the damn main base would help a lot for starters. :P
My only other changes would be against the overpowering bombs of the stuka and mc.200. With the breda AA being near useless, these two planes just dont let any tank support have any kind of effect for Australia. I would suggest a few things.
1) Take away the mc.200. The stuka is enough to take out the aussie tanks, and it gives the bredas a chance to keep it at bay.
OR
2) Give maybe 1 or 2 bofors to the back line defenses. They're more powerful and more effective against the planes.
2) to add to either of these, I'd give the Australians some AA portees. Just being able to move my AA guns and not have flyboys who spend hours practicing just hit the known AA positions from beyond the fog would be a big help. Those AT trenches would be perfect spots for 1 or 2 bredas on the back of the Chevys.
and also unlimiting the engineer kit would be nice. Or put some tanker kits next to the tanks so people can fall back and repair.
Hope this map gets some love for the next release. 8)
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What size is Siege of Tobruk 64?
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Please :'(
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1x1km
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THANKS