Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Africa maps => Feedback => Fall of Tobruk => Topic started by: Toddel on 29-03-2009, 11:03:45
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"If you have a suggestions or want to give us some Feedback about this Map you can Post it here!"
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I really must congratulate you on this map. Even though I rarely get to play it, I have personaly filed it in my brain's 'epic' folder.
The scenery in the town really gives this map a feel to it. The fights amongst the allyways and in the tunnels are some of the tensest I've been in. I'm certainly looking forward to this map with the handweapon improvements in 2.2.
I can only really think of one improvement that could be made. I would make the first flag unrecapable. I feel this needs to be done because as germans, the initial assault is the hardest part of the map, and often the first flag is recapped immediatly. This makes all the hard work put into the assault worthless and can be quite annoying. While I find the initial attack across the open ground fun, the fights in the city proper are much better. The other advantage would be that the brit defence would probably improve, since they know that the loss of the flag is permanent.
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If the Outskirts Flag is going to made unrecappable, it should be harder to cap in the first place. Maybe requiring more people in the radius and/or a longer cap time. Especially on pub servers where, occasionally, only half of the team will spawn in on time, the rest cursed with slower connections and/or computers. If the defense isn't at full strength because players are still loading the map, it's too easy for the attacking team to steamroll over the first "foothold" flag.
I do, however, agree with making the Outskirts unrecappable if it's more difficult to attack in the first place.
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This map is my favourite as hell, a sniper and AT-soldiers heaven. But enough sucking up, to the point:
When playing this map, I have very rarely seen the axis take Admiralty House (the last british flag). You might say its not a problem, because the axis can win without taking that flag, but I say the gameplay could be improved with reworking the push order a little.
Right now the push is setup so that you can either move up on the left flank all the way to the church, or you can take the right flank. However, you cannot complete the right flank atm and after you reach the harbor, you need to start working on the left flank's flags. I think you should make it so that you can attack Admiralty House right after you have taken the Harbor (or both the Harbor and Town Center). That would enable axis to finish the right flank, giving the flags on the right a bigger tactical value.
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They usually come up there anyway, to stop me from sniping them 8)
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And maybe some slower capture times. I love this map but sometimes your running your arse off to all flags turning it in to a flaghop fest.
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And maybe some slower capture times. I love this map but sometimes your running your arse off to all flags turning it in to a flaghop fest.
Technically, yes, but it's really more of 'players are hard-coded' problem in my eyes. When you've captured a CP in a regular Conquest mode map, you're supposed to hold it. If you don't, it gets captured by the enemy. That simple.
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Ehm yes but if your with 2 persons holding a flag, how are the other flags getting in your control then? They wont.
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I never see the axis attacking the north Flag..
The good things are the 2 Stuarts, a 6pdr and 2 Mortars (Who runs out of ammo quiclky). If the Axis managed to get into the Church.. then they should not have to worry about the North Flag.. the Allies losses where high, and all the team is defending that flag.. for the Axis means losses.
Both sides are "Exausted" when the Axis gets the Church.. taking the Inner flags for the Axis is damn hard.. whitout good coordination and SL's.
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When the allies are confined to the last flag, it's too damn hard to break out.
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Try harder then. Also try harder to make more useful posts, please.
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Very good map :) Its been my favorite map, and it still is i guess. Though my FH2 skills get better and better and i think ill like other maps better, soon. Its a broader specter of things to do in other maps. But the street fighting is great. The map consists of the possibilities of most types of city infantry strategies. Too often it may become a "flaghop fest" indeed, but i guess its not much to do to prevent that. But here is my ideas to prevent it:
The only changes i think would be reasonable is to make the first flag (outskirts i think) not possible to recap. Aswell as making it easier to get to the last flag, for example with more open terrain or more alleys or doors leading there.
Im not sure, but maybe it would be an idea to remove one entrance to each of the bunkers. So they would be harder to cap.
Or at least to make the mid flag only possible to cap from inside the bunker. As it is now, the mid flag change owner constantly, cause its so many places to approach the flag zone. Places thats also very suitable for hiding, and defenders have a hard job checking all these places all the time, nor is it any good positions with a good overview. Since this easy-cappable flag is in the middle, i think this may be much of the reason for the "flaghop - fest"
Though as i said, its an extremely good map anyhow :)
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Hslan recently removed all the tanks.And i must say, that the map has become very fun to play XD
It is so fun to grab the Thermos kit at Officers building, and just wait till a Sonderkrafts or a german assault force bomes ;D
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Wait... Hslan SSM's?
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No, I think Hslan is playing the 32 player size.
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Ohhh okay.
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oooh thats the 32 version map?
Figures ;D
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Ehm yes but if your with 2 persons holding a flag, how are the other flags getting in your control then?
Unless it's a very slow day, there will be more than three people on your team :P . Organize your team so that some players defend, while others attack. Or, if you have enough flags to make the enemy bleed, don't launch further attacks. Dig in as hard as you can and hold the Control Points until you win through ticket attrition.
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djinn, I think the above is about Siege of Tobruk, not Fall...
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oops...just realised it when I went looking for this is Seige... Please someone post this in its right location: Seige of Tobruk 64 map
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oops...just realised it when I went looking for this is Seige... Please someone post this in its right location: Seige of Tobruk 64 map
You can always copy your post, delete that one, and post in the correct thread.
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so....bots still unable run on Fall of tobruk? :o
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(http://img5.imagebanana.com/img/swtzlzn6/screen024.jpg)
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...? What's the problem? The wire doesn't go all the way to the right post?
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Exactly. I'd also like to make a general complaint that the tree trunk textures aren't seamless. You can also see it in the wooden poles, it's disgusting.
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Best SP-supported map as far as I can see... Bots go everywhere and use everything... Save for the Stuarts for some wierd reason. And a bit of work on the AI commander will allow bots to spawn back at the main base to come with tanks... Currently they rarely go back for more tanks (I've personally never seen them do it once) if they capture the first line of bases.. so it degerates into SP infantry-only
But its so cool how you can find them everywhere and anywhere, using mg positions, AT guns etc... And its such a lovely town isn't - The perfect model for all future maps... Custom statics, to-scale map, no ficticious stuff
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Tbh, this map bores the shit out of me
Its kind of frustrating for both teams I guess,
Germans take first flag and get pushed back immediately, loosing tanks and die wave for wave they try to get the flag. Defenders get bore because they rarely see other parts of the map than just the first 2 flags…
I experienced that 3 out of 4 rounds play out like that. I think the problem is that the German armoured support get shot down by the Boys rifle as soon as they are in sight. It’s a tank slaughterhouse. Thus they can’t really support the German attack.
So, I think it would help to reduce the available boys AT rifle kits or add another German support vehicle, maybe this one
(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/100211/sdkfz231.jpg)
in addition to that I would place a few more satchel charges kits on the map, that way the allies have still AT weapons as soon as German tanks drive through the destroyed inner city.
or a sdkfz as a mobile spawn point the Germans could park behind one of the ruins so they spawn nearer to the first flags , making it a bit easier to capture them.
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do you have any idea how much those panzers rape you down? And the only availiable allied tanks are 2 stuarts wich still die from their frontal armor in one shot by Panzer IV, wich shoulndt happen with regular AP
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well, they may rape you down, for 2 seconds, till 6 boys rifles rape the tank down...
serious,
but maybe thats not the cause for the problem, still, Germans have a hard time to capture the first falg and hold it... for some reason
so, what do you think is the reason?
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well, they may rape you down, for 2 seconds, till 6 boys rifles rape the tank down...
serious,
but maybe thats not the cause for the problem, still, Germans have a hard time to capture the first falg and hold it... for some reason
so, what do you think is the reason?
1. The boys cannot kill the Panzer IV and III.
2. The germans need to coordinate. Their are tons of allied attack maps wich are 10 times difficult in the beginning (totalize, Villers etc)
3.Adding that awesome epic SDKZ 231 wont solve any balance. As boys would rape it. It will be like a lesser armoured Panzer II.
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well, they may rape you down, for 2 seconds, till 6 boys rifles rape the tank down...
serious,
but maybe thats not the cause for the problem, still, Germans have a hard time to capture the first falg and hold it... for some reason
so, what do you think is the reason?
1. The boys cannot kill the Panzer IV and III.
2. The germans need to coordinate. Their are tons of allied attack maps wich are 10 times difficult in the beginning (totalize, Villers etc)
3.Adding that awesome epic SDKZ 231 wont solve any balance. As boys would rape it. It will be like a lesser armoured Panzer II.
1. They can, I have done it myself.
2. I agree. The bottleneck at the bginning is mostly cuased by the two mortars the brits have. Thesse can range in on the open ground in front of the city and devastate the attacking Germans. Once the first flag is taken, the fast movement and urban setting of the combat makes these a non issue.
3. On top of that having a scout vehicle like that in a city map doesn't make much sense. It is much more useful on El Alamein or similar maps.
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yes, I killed today a Panzer IV with the Boys
well about the Sdkfz , that may be right , but still I think the main problem is that the german amour suppord gets hunted down to fast to be really effective , thus making it harder to get the first flags IMO :P
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yes, I killed today a Panzer IV with the Boys
well about the Sdkfz , that may be right , but still I think the main problem is that the german amour suppord gets hunted down to fast to be really effective , thus making it harder to get the first flags IMO :P
Then support those tanks. Seriously, a tank inside a city is dead meat withouth infantery support
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german amour suppord gets hunted down to fast to be really effective , thus making it harder to get the first flags IMO :P
not in the city 8)
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Just wanted to say this is my favorite map by far in FH2, can't explain how much fun and visually stunning it is
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Killing Pz3/4 with Boys is NOT an easy task, you have to hit VERY specific spots (ie. cupola or hull bottom) from a correct angle several times over, only very skilled gunners can do this. Much easier to sneak up on one and use sticky bombs (or the infamous mini-nuke, Thermos).
Killing 251 and Pz2 with Boys is easy however, and adding yet another paper-mache vehicle into the mix will not help Germans at all.
"OMG ALLIED BIAS" round occurs only if the Germans first charge headlong into British positions, unsupported by tanks, without mortar bombardment or smoke screen and are cut down by Brenguns and sniper rifles. OK, so then they scream for tank support, so the infantry stays face to the dirt while the Panzers drive alone into the city proper and for some curious reason get massacred. Rinse, repeat.
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Killing Pz3/4 with Boys is NOT an easy task, you have to hit VERY specific spots (ie. cupola or hull bottom) from a correct angle several times over, only very skilled gunners can do this. Much easier to sneak up on one and use sticky bombs (or the infamous mini-nuke, Thermos).
Killing 251 and Pz2 with Boys is easy however, and adding yet another paper-mache vehicle into the mix will not help Germans at all.
"OMG ALLIED BIAS" round occurs only if the Germans first charge headlong into British positions, unsupported by tanks, without mortar bombardment or smoke screen and are cut down by Brenguns and sniper rifles. OK, so then they scream for tank support, so the infantry stays face to the dirt while the Panzers drive alone into the city proper and for some curious reason get massacred. Rinse, repeat.
this^
Their are many assault maps in wich the allies have to accomplish the same thing, and when nobody cooperates, they loose the round but NOBODY says ONE thing about this
If their is one map like this for the german team, and they fail to do it, it is INSTANT whine and complain and BUFF GERMANS ADD MORE OF THIS. I played fall of tobruk 3 times a couple of days ago. Yes indeed the allies won twice of the 3 rounds. But only because the german team was NOT cooperating. Mortars where not used. Infantery assaulted blindy (no smoke screens, suppresive MG34's). Panzers where either spawnraping or getting themself dumbly killed. Sorry but thats the price you pay.
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Their are many assault maps in wich the allies have to accomplish the same thing, and when nobody cooperates, they loose the round but NOBODY says ONE thing about this
I thought this was your job...
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Their are many assault maps in wich the allies have to accomplish the same thing, and when nobody cooperates, they loose the round but NOBODY says ONE thing about this
I thought this was your job...
yes
But hey, the more the merrier ;D
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Hm, has anyone brought up the issue of spawn points in Mussolini Square?
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what issues ???
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Eh, I always thought it odd that one of the spawnpoints in Mussolini Square is in the cap zone, right in the open, so that often leads people to get killed right as they spawn by the people trying to capture it.
Is it odd that I think that is kind of wrong/off?
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I can't think of any spawn points on cap zone ???. Do you possibly mean spawn in middle of that house group north of flag? Place where the tunnel goes to flag bunker?
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Do you know the position with the anti-tank gun and the equipable Lewis Gun?
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6 pounder? I think we talk about same place then. That spawn isn't on cap zone as far as I know. Cap zone is inside bunker south from there.
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6 pounder? I think we talk about same place then. That spawn isn't on cap zone as far as I know. Cap zone is inside bunker south from there.
Hm, I'm almost certain I have spawned at that location, and was duly shot or killed by mortar fire. And isn't there typically more than one spawn location?
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In the beginning of the mapthe German soften get shelld by the Allied mortar right ON there SPAWNPOINTS, the mortar even hits behind them quite often.
This is totally unfair and a fair player wouldnt do it i my opinion. And most of time I am pretty sure that the guys on mortar are very aware of them shooting at the spawnpoints. (Of course I am just talking about the spawnpoints in the german "base.
So what could we do about it? Total mapoverhaule?
No just add an ABS line for the Germans, so at least it would be forbidden to shoot the spawnpoints by server rules. By now its kind of a grey area.
Of course it cant prevent it completly, but at least you would have some base on which you can kick those guys for a minute.
Ofcourse the ABS line should only include the area of the spawnpoints and litte bit ahead.
If you see any Problems for the Allied team please tell me.
An exampleof such a change would be Girabub where it has been changed for the Brits in very simmilar way as my proposal. So why not for the Germans at Fall of Tobruk there getting raped far worse by the Mortars as the Brits in Girabub are getting by rifels.
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Atleast on hslan, shooting at spawn point is against rules. Adding ABC line on the other hand would do nothing, because it is allowed to shoot beyond it.
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All my arguments are still valid, since it is forbidden in 762 to shoot behind the ABC line. Shooting at spawnpoints is not handled as strictly as ABC line issues. The map is played fas more often on 762 (smaler maplist) and with much more players usually.
Also an ABC line wouldnt change the gameplay for hslan (Or does it?), so I think it would be a good compromise between the rules of both servers.
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I imagine it would be frustrating for the Germans getting constantly mortared, but it's just as shitty if you're allied and the first two flags have still yet to fall, you're putting up a great defense, and with all the tricky hidden passes, underground tunnels and alternate routes, some German (usually an SL) sneaks past and spawns his whole squad in that two-story building on the corner of the road that connects the Allied mortar flag with the church flag. Within two minutes, anyone that spawns at the back two Allied flags is dead within five seconds of spawning, because the German squad has picked up all the Allied pick-up kits in the area (sniper rifle, No4 w/ satchels + S-mines, Boys rifle w/ Thermos nuke, etc.) and the admins on neither server do anything about it. This is a-okay on one server, and completely ignored on the other, even if it is technically against the rules and obviously against the spirit of them. Even though backcapping isn't possible, this still happens on half of all rounds on Fall of Tobruk.
Not that there is really anything anyone can do about it. The more underground passages and building mazes this map has the better, but the Allies are fucked nearly as hard as the Germans are on this map. Maybe swap one of the Allied mortars for some more cool pick-up kits? This map has some of the best ones (like the Boys + Thermos nukes, the No4 + satchels and S-mines, and my personal favorite, the Thompson with 20-round clips with HE grenades and Binocs). Maybe lose one mortar but something fun, like a Lewis gun with smoke grenades, a repairman kit with the 20-round Thompson and a wrench, an explosion-man kit with a pistol and no main weapon, but two satchels and two nukes/sticky bombs. Two kits of that kind of thing (on different parts of the map, like the multiple places for the Thompson/HE grenade kit, Boys/thermos kit, No4/satchels/S-mines kits) would be very useful and in the hands of a competent player would kill just as many Germans over the course of the map as the mortars would, but (and this would be the key) they wouldn't be frustrating Germans nearly as much as continued mortar slaughter is.
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Getting killed by the mortar is frustrating at the beginning of the round certainly, but later on its okay, because it spreads over the map.
The thing about the squats behind the lines is worng, at leaston 762. When the Germans dont get through the allied defense, there are at most one or two Germans behind the lines, pretty much never a whole squad.
And when there are squats at the allied base while its uncap or somewhere else in far uncapthere get warend or even kicked.
Yes 762 has a quite good adminteam, surely there are incidents were the admins are not aware of somethings, but most of the time it works. Play more 762, ask for admis you will recognice it.
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The map feedback threads are not for advertising servers :-\
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Really nice Map, but it has some not nice corners. IMO it’s too hard for the Germans to take one of the first flags. Ive seen this much too many times, that you simply get mortared away and even when you made it alive into cover, a random brit spawns right behind you and kills you. This problem is caused by: Nearly no cover from mortar and rifle fire and the wrong placed spawn points (all around the flag). At the other flags this works fine, cause the mortars the only can concentrate at one flag and not at three, and you got enough cover from rifles. Same works with the brits at the Church. When the mortar already is hitting your base and you have to cap the Church flag (with this capzone without any cover and the spawns placed all around it), its way to hard.
So my suggestion is:
1.Place the spawns for british team at Outskirts and Officers Building flags north of them
2.Place the Spawns for german team at Church flag west of it. (ive made a little minimap with my incredible paint skillz)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/fotspawns.png/
3. optional: Take away of one mortar per team (the germans has then 2 mortars and the brits 1)
Ps. Add an ammo box by the german mortars
Any Opinions?
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Really nice Map, but it has some not nice corners. IMO it’s too hard for the Germans to take one of the first flags. Ive seen this much too many times, that you simply get mortared away and even when you made it alive into cover, a random brit spawns right behind you and kills you. This problem is caused by: Nearly no cover from mortar and rifle fire and the wrong placed spawn points (all around the flag). At the other flags this works fine, cause the mortars the only can concentrate at one flag and not at three, and you got enough cover from rifles. Same works with the brits at the Church. When the mortar already is hitting your base and you have to cap the Church flag (with this capzone without any cover and the spawns placed all around it), its way to hard.
So my suggestion is:
1.Place the spawns for british team at Outskirts and Officers Building flags north of them
2.Place the Spawns for german team at Church flag west of it. (ive made a little minimap with my incredible paint skillz)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/fotspawns.png/
3. optional: Take away of one mortar per team (the germans has then 2 mortars and the brits 1)
Ps. Add an ammo box by the german mortars
Any Opinions?
This is still my favorite map in the game, and these are great suggestions. I notice what you are talking about when trying to cap church, the spawn points are so random around it, and with not that many places to hide while capping, it is pretty dang hard. And I think all the mortars are a bit much, remove one of each I agree.
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2.46 changelog for Fall of Tobruk 64
- Team spawning added to all flags (this means that the Allies spawn in one place, the Axis - in another). No spawning for the Axis at the last 2 flags.
- Introduced sector push for the first two flags (the Allies can't recapture them if both are in the German hands).
- Expanded and improved combat area (primarily in E1-G2). Also, added ABC area for the Allies.
- The Germans stop bleeding when they capture 4 or more flags. The Allies start bleeding when they hold 3 or less flags.
- Fixed some Lewis bipods.
- New, more aggressive lighting.
- Tons of cosmetic fixes - floating, misplaced and flickering stuff (sometimes very ancient), broken undergrowth, you name it.
Minimap for reference:
(http://i59.tinypic.com/10xssyd.jpg)
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2.48 changelog for Fall of Tobruk 64
- Fixed redundant push arrows.
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More Lafettes pls