Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Community Polls => Topic started by: blander on 18-08-2018, 22:08:55

Title: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: blander on 18-08-2018, 22:08:55
Using a transport vehicle like a truck or a jeep and parking it close to an enemy position is a worthless strategy because the vehicle will appear in the enemy┬┤s mini-map and thus the attack becomes visible, the surprise element is lost.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 18-08-2018, 23:08:54
It's fine to show it on the minimap, 'cause rushing behind enemy lines with a 4 ton truck and pooping out squad mates is a dumb tactic imo. :-\ It's not realistic in any way and from a gameplay standpoint I'd much rather fight for a flag then have it taken from behind me without contest because someone wasn't paying attention.

I think having it show up on the minimap is an unintended consequence of the fact that it's not team locked. So tbh I don't think it's something that's even been looked into by anyone. I also don't know if it's possible to do without stopping it from showing up on the minimap entirely or team locking it.

Having it show up, coupled with blinking circles and the fact that there's a minimap in the first place, allow the average player to have more situational awareness that is necessary in a 'gamey' shooter like FH2 imo
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 19-08-2018, 10:08:07
I don't think it's a dumb tactic if you can use the element of surprise to your advantage. Rushing into static defense is a dumb tactic though and more often than not the only choice on Sector Push. As you have said yourself, the game is quite 'gamey' and the troll tactics, at least in my opinion, make it more fun. I miss the big conquest maps. Sure, it was annoying when some random Schwimmwagen managed to cap back a flag on Operation Cobra, but it made the map way more enjoyable even for a losing team and let's face it: Teams get stacked quite regularly so that one sided constantly loses. Most Conquest maps are Sector Push now, K├╝belschrecking and Bazookajeeps have been removed, the Calliope Jeep has been castrated, the Wasp takes incredible amounts of damage by just driving to the front and the rocket launchers are iffy as hell so I'd definitely argue for a change that enables goofy tactics. There's nothing remotely immersive in FH2 except for the art work that you would have to preserve by making those tactics useless.

I agree though, it's just the vBF2 way of showing empty vehicles that are not team locked. Making them completely invisible on the map would probably lead to some frustration as well.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 19-08-2018, 10:08:45
Quote
Most Conquest maps are Sector Push now,

What? In what world? We actually released a new conquest map last patch and 2 in the patch before that...
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 19-08-2018, 12:08:50
I'm talking about the old ones you turned into sector push - like Cobra. I appreciate the idea of more people on one flag but I don't like the result.
One map on which it works particularly well though is Hurtgen.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 19-08-2018, 13:08:04
And that means "Most" of them are now sector push? I don't think you know the definition of "Most".
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 19-08-2018, 13:08:07
No need to get cranky. I don't care for the Africa maps and at one point a lot of maps got blessed with that game mode, including Falaise Pocket, after which my enjoyment for this mod dropped a little. I'll be more precise: Most of the maps I enjoyed got a change for the worse -> in my opinion <-. I'm probably alone with this opinion as many people still enjoy your mod just as much as on day one so it's completely fine to keep it that way.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Slayer on 19-08-2018, 17:08:24
I don't care for the Africa maps
To each his own of course, but to discard a large part of the mod, without which we wouldnt even have this discussion right now, and then use it as an argument on gameplay is really wrong imo.

I agree with Matt, sneaky tactics are not for this game. I agree that rushing into static defenses is not the best tactic, but taking flags with the use of smoke, artillery, tank support and infantry skills, ie combined arms with a bit of teamwork actually is the core of the game.

Therefore it is imo totally fine that a jeep becomes visible on the map. If you don't want that to happen, leave at least one teammate inside it: problem solved.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: jan_kurator on 19-08-2018, 18:08:26
Using a transport vehicle like a truck or a jeep and parking it close to an enemy position is a worthless strategy because it is simply stupid to begin with. On the other hand, I think that all vehicles but bicycles and ciivilian cars/trucks should be teamlocked, what would result in them being hidden on the minimap. I don't like how easy it is to drive enemy's vehicles, but I understand technical reasons behind it. We now have new flashing markers to indicate when precappers "sneaky attackers" are on a flag, so I wouldn't mind vehicles not being shown. Unfortunately, it is not possible to implement without teamlocking all vehicles or making them invisible for both sides.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 20-08-2018, 09:08:24
I'm fully aware that without the Africa maps, this mod would not be where it is at but I find most of the maps to be an unenjoyable grind fest, especially on a full server. As I've said, I'm in the minority on this one and I should clarify that the mini map icon definitely is not game breaking for me, otherwise I would not occasionally come back to play a few games.

Yes, a nicely timed combined attack is something I've seen maybe once or twice in over five years of playing this mod (mind you, not as regularly as most of the players here). In contrast to a mod like PR, there's almost no incentive to work as a team except for driving a vehicle as bow gunner or spotting for artillery. The Squad Leader serves no other function than to be a mobile spawn, a role I regularly take because I'm not a super active player to begin with so sitting back and sniping off enemies fits this style. That or sitting in a bush without moving to create a flanking spawn. The fact that first aid and ammo kits plus revive function for infantry were taken out of the mod for understandable reasons (unstoppable zombie squads) just reinforces that. The SL is just a spawn point from which the squad mates just rush to the next flag without coordination, die, respawn, rinse and repeat. The moment someone has made it past the defenses, everyone leaves your squad to spawn on the sneaky new squad leader anyway. The fact that there are a handful of "real" squad leaders that manage to create a dynamic by using VOIP and being fun in general does not change the overall feeling for me. Not that FH should take the vBF2 mechanics but those managed to make random people cooperate okay to win a match even if noone used VOIP.
That last guy who remains in the vehicle doing nothing at all would be the SL then since if he dies, he stops serving any purpose ;D

TL;DR: I don't think the teamwork Slayer mentioned is often in effect on a public server with randoms.

Sounds like a good idea that would also greatly reduce the amount of teamkilling. Locking civilian cars seem odd though. How would you "balance" them between the teams then? Oh, so you can see when a flag is contested?
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: jan_kurator on 20-08-2018, 13:08:15
^
civilian cars/trucks and bicycles should be the only unlocked vehicles IMO
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Slayer on 20-08-2018, 15:08:28
Spotting for artillery (and moving in after the blast) is teamwork already and it is an everyday event.  :)

Also, with a community like this, you can hardly talk of "randoms", most of the players know each other.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: LuckyOne on 20-08-2018, 18:08:00
I don't really mind it showing currently, like everyone said if you want it to stay invisible leave somebody in it.

However maybe some vehicles should stay hidden / be teamlocked. In FHSW the towed AT guns are invisible, and also the "commando" vehicles that were historically used for sneaky tactics...

Maybe only the SAS Jeep / Schwimmwagen should be locked and "sneaky" ?

All in all the vehicle flag rushing is in my opinion just a symptom of a far greater problem. The truth is, most transport vehicles are useless in this mod. The fast ones can be used for flag rushing, the APCs mostly sit in main even if they have some firepower because they are easy targets and provide little other perks. The trucks are only ever useful on Africa maps where distances are larger.

In BF 1942 at least some APCs could lay mines, others spawned a heavy MG on a tripod. The trucks could deploy ammo boxes to bring ammo for the infantry where it was scarce...I wonder why the current incarnation of FH abandoned all these perks that made support vehicles fun...
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Slayer on 20-08-2018, 20:08:48
APCs still reload ammo, you just have to sit next to it for a while.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 21-08-2018, 11:08:11
@jan_kurator: Sorry, I missed the "but". Thanks for clarifying.

@Slayer: Yes, the artillery is teamwork for sure but I feel that, despite or maybe because the veteran player base, there are a lot of (very good) lone wolfs that mop the floor with the irregulars or newcomers and most teamplay feels unrewarding. The only rewarding moment for the Squad Leader is to be the best squad, usually with the SL having half of the points of the best guy in the squad since he has to be careful. Since the full sized rifles are 1hk and a soldier has more than enough ammo on him, ammo that you can only replenish by finding boxes or trucks, there's really no need to work in a squad except for an extra spawn point or "fast cap" reinforcements. You cannot be revived, you cannot be rearmed and rarely will you find a guy that will repair your tank. The best players at the end of the round are usually the ones who know how to handle a tank or a plane (I vividly remember FH|Fairplayer in his Typhoon on Totalize or the King Tiger drivers on Eppelsdorf), stuff that you don't need much teamplay to be good with.

@LuckyOne: Yes, especially when you use them as intended with a full squad and you get caught by an AT rifle or gun, you just lost a bunch of tickets and propelled the lucky killer on first place :P

What about removing the mini map entirely and only leaving the "big" map? I take it that it would result in massive team killing or why is it still here with all the other HUD elements gone?
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Slayer on 21-08-2018, 14:08:25
I kindly disagree with you on the teamwork thing :)

Just yesterday we played Villers Bocage and ToreSlinning was destroying axis Panzers left and right in his Achilles. When I typed a little compliment, he replied "couldn't have done it without my squad". I wasn't in his squad, but I saw red tanks flash on the minimap from time to time, so I assume he had spotters in his squad who told him where the Panthers, Tigers and Panzer IVs were. Since he lived for so long, he must have had repairmen to keep him alive for so long too. That is just one example, from a casual night of gaming.

Of course, in other squads the teamwork might not be as smooth, let alone the guys who aren't even in squads, but I think the amount of teamwork is OK, and often underestimated.

@HUD elements: what do you mean by "all other elements gone"? I still see my ammocount and the "health" of my vehicle/static weapon, so I don't know for sure what you mean by "all gone".
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Redbadd on 23-08-2018, 01:08:16
Im ok with them showing up, you can use it as a diversion or an invitation to come on over. You can drive it into a river etc or stay in the backseat.

Sneaking is what makes most maps playable.

Imagin Villers be a push sector what ever you call it map, it would be a horrible bore grind fest like most of the new maps. Backcapping is shit but it would make ogledow more fun, get things moving instead of running into a brick (lead) wall.
Ary spamming, heavy tank spamming, maybe planes with higher accuracy then comtempory airforces and instant reload. I dont care to try to cap a flag with a couple 122 spots on it.
Blind spotting and a couple of guys repairing on the back of a tank and a guy sniping with a 105mm, thats just as gamy as rushing in with a kuebel a couple of times until it works.



Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Slayer on 23-08-2018, 17:08:59
Sneaking is what makes most maps playable.
Wow, that is certainly a pessimistic view on the gameplay of the mod.

Agreed that there are many gamey things in FH2, but that doesn't mean that all gamey things are good/should be allowed in or added to the mod.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: GeoPat on 25-08-2018, 14:08:47
They've been experimenting with making empty vehicle icons invisible in the tournament.  It is possible to do without teamlocking everything.

Incidentally, sneaking in with vehicles is the essence of tournament play.  Given the popularity of the tournament, I'd say many people prefer that gameplay style.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Slayer on 25-08-2018, 14:08:29
Incidentally, sneaking in with vehicles is the essence of tournament play.  Given the popularity of the tournament, I'd say many people prefer that gameplay style.
You know this "conclusion" is borked, right?

Also, the essence of tournament play was teamwork, right? At least, that's what I've been hearing all these years.

If you want sneaky gameplay, there are games designed for that, like those James Bond games.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: GeoPat on 25-08-2018, 16:08:19
If you want sneaky gameplay, there are games designed for that, like those James Bond games.

We don't need other games.  This one is perfect for sneaking around on big conquest maps.  It makes use of the best that the BF2 engine offers.  It allows high ping, average skilled players the opportunity to outsmart their foe.

IMO, many of the stock maps actually keep the action where the engine is buggiest, lot's of people at close quarters.  It turns a great game into lag and frag, spawn die spawn die.  In general it favors low pingers with good shooter skills.  It's basically a field day for young Germans, atm.

As for the tournament, it takes a lot of team work to pull off a good sneak attack.  There is nothing quite like attacking a flag simultaneously from different directions and wiping out the defenders.  There is also nothing quite as great as using a sneak attack on a back flag to flip the tables on an enemy team that thought it was winning.  That's how we can play the same map for 6-7 rounds and each round feels completely different.

As for other games, I'm pretty sure almost every WW2 FPS game out there does what some of the stock maps are trying to do which is script the gameplay.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 25-08-2018, 16:08:57
Is EOD2 really popular in the tournament scene, GeoPat?
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Nerdsturm on 25-08-2018, 18:08:06
IMO, many of the stock maps actually keep the action where the engine is buggiest, lot's of people at close quarters.  It turns a great game into lag and frag, spawn die spawn die.  In general it favors low pingers with good shooter skills.  It's basically a field day for young Germans, atm.

Frankly, this is what most people want from the game. Players want action, and don't care enough about winning the map to wait around defending flags that rarely, if ever, get attacked. IMO this is why most of the CMP maps play poorly on the public servers - I mean you can sneak attack the rear flags on Westwall but even on a 100 player server the probability that there will be any defenders there is low.

But I think transports should stay visible just because they're usable transports and players may need them. Teamlocking transports would be okay though, as it's easy to teamkill players in enemy jeeps since they're so fast that you have little time to check the minimap.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: GeoPat on 25-08-2018, 18:08:04
That is a good point Nerdstrum.  Luckily the tournament is still strong going for those who like its gameplay.  I'm working on a stripped down version of Westwall for the next CMP release.  Fewer flags more tanks.

@Flippy.  Unfortunately EOD2 is dead.  I don't think most people have even heard of it.  Maybe we will get an event or mini-campaign going, like we have with BF Pirates2.  I would like to try it out with multiplayer.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 25-08-2018, 19:08:45
@Flippy.  Unfortunately EOD2 is dead.  I don't think most people have even heard of it.  Maybe we will get an event or mini-campaign going, like we have with BF Pirates2.  I would like to try it out with multiplayer.

You'd think EOD2 was doing great in the tournament world if sneaking is the way to play in them.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: GeoPat on 25-08-2018, 19:08:02
Oh, I see where this is going.  We should just revive some thread of an argument that will never end.  For the record there is no "tournament world" that I know of.  The people that I have played with the past 6 years in two different tournaments just want to play their preferred version of FH2.  All other games tried have gotten a lot less participation.  Only FH1 and FHSW campaigns even come close. 

It's never really been about the tournament, most participants are completely inactive in the forums and don't attend training.  It's not ever about teamwork and roleplaying.  You have to yell at people to communicate.  Every Friday a bunch of people want to play a game that they love in style they prefer.  Just like some FH2 fans only play SP other FH2 fans prefer the tournament maps.  That's just how it is.

If you were serious about EOD2, I don't think it ever got finished enough to take off. 
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Slayer on 25-08-2018, 21:08:30
We don't need other games.  This one is perfect for sneaking around on big conquest maps.  It makes use of the best that the BF2 engine offers. It allows high ping, average skilled players the opportunity to outsmart their foe.
Actually, what you describe, is that FH2 should have never been made on the BF2 engine. And yes, the whole sneaking thing suits BF2 A LOT better than FH2, since World War 2 big battles were usually more about clashes of armies than about small parties sneaking in somewhere. Maybe FH2 would have been better on a different engine. But it is as it is.
Title: Re: Transports showing in mini-map
Post by: Korsakov829 on 29-08-2018, 18:08:59
It's a problem but I don't think that there's a middle ground solution to it, even in the latest Battlefield games empty vehicles still appear on the map.

In BF1942, BF2, all the time I remember checking the map to see what vehicles were open for taking in the enemy's spawn and whatever was missing would tell you what the enemy was fielding and what you had to prepare to counter or evade. Any time a flag is captured and vehicles spawn you check to see if anything disappears to get an idea of how fast they're moving. It's not a big deal when you have a server of 50+ people since it's much harder to keep track of but even then you can at least pay attention to what is only a few meters away from you, so you'd have a few seconds of warning if you had an attack coming from a vehicle. And that's why I always drowned my jeeps in a lake or something if possible, or went the longest way possible on foot. In the tournaments, it didn't happen that often but it was a tactic to have one person remain inside the vehicle for several seconds after everyone gets out, or to drive it elsewhere.

In my opinion the map shouldn't even be visible and only accessible after a considerable delay and even then should never relay the position of any person or vehicle, not even yourself. That's the extreme option, I like it because it makes everyone a bit more cautious about their surroundings and needs an even more heightened awareness as to what is going on, be it sounds or flocks of birds. Of the latter I don't remember if that's still in FH2 but honestly it should be removed, but that's a topic for another time.

The alternative to that is adjust the range that empty vehicles begin to appear on the map to something really short. I have no idea how that is achieved and if it's possible to do without changing the range for every single thing.