Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: Michael Z Freeman on 04-05-2018, 16:05:48

Title: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 04-05-2018, 16:05:48
Hi,

Forum member MaxP has posted (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=17124.msg356797#msg356797) that he has fixed the issues that a previously released bot/AI vision blocking smoke grenade implementation had. I have seen the files but I'm not in the right situation at the moment to do any testing. It would be great to get this into SP/Coop. I always think smoke adds a bit of atmosphere to FH maps so it would be nice to see smoke grenades and other weapons with smoke being used. Does FH have smoke artillery rounds ? Commander smoke ? I can't remember now.

Also for anyone who does not play any games with the AI in, this smoke screen idea has a long history. An implementation was released many years ago by "SatNav" on the BFSP site. N@W took up some kind of version of it into their mod. Don't know if it's still in there. But there were many issues with it. FH forum member Djinn (where are you?) famously (at least it was famous to me!) pestered me to get this working for what seemed years. But the dreaded "real life" always seemed to get in the way. Damn I want to blind those bots !  ;D
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 04-05-2018, 17:05:27
Does FH have smoke artillery rounds ? Commander smoke ? I can't remember now.
There is commander smoke artillery, although I doubt it is used on any of the maps. many German tanks have smoke grenade launchers, some of the allied have them too, others have smoke shells as a ammo type in their main cannons. There is also smoke ammunition available for most of the mortars and artillery pieces in game.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 07-05-2018, 20:05:38
Here is proof that the new smoke grenade is effective against bots!:

"Working smoke screen against AI/Bots in Forgotten Hope BF2 Mod, EPIC !" - https://youtu.be/S-0rHwSnhn4

Does FH have smoke artillery rounds ? Commander smoke ? I can't remember now.
There is commander smoke artillery, although I doubt it is used on any of the maps. many German tanks have smoke grenade launchers, some of the allied have them too, others have smoke shells as a ammo type in their main cannons. There is also smoke ammunition available for most of the mortars and artillery pieces in game.

Which tanks fire smoke grenades ? Never seen it myself.

There are some technicalities to using the same method for artillery/mortars which means it could only work in true single player games (started from the "Singleplayer" option in the in game menu). The smoke grenade is a big breakthrough because it works on both client and the server in Coop games. This is the key problem which MaxP has cracked.

Is no one else excited by this damn thing ?
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-05-2018, 21:05:29
Which tanks fire smoke grenades ? Never seen it myself.
PzKpfw III Ausf. M & N, PzKpfw VI Ausf. E (early model Tiger only), Daimler Mk I, Vickers Mk. VIB, Cruiser Mk IVA, and Matilda Mk II. On all of these, smoke grenade discharges are mounted on the sides of their turrets.

Is no one else excited by this damn thing ?
No. Most of us play multiplayer only. There is not even a single person working on singleplayer in the dev team for that matter. As I said before. If you're interested in it and enthusiastic about improving singleplayer mode, get in touch with devs and maybe apply for a singleplayer dev position. Otherwise, you can forget about it ever being included in FH2.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 08-05-2018, 09:05:13
Which tanks fire smoke grenades ? Never seen it myself.
PzKpfw III Ausf. M & N, PzKpfw VI Ausf. E (early model Tiger only), Daimler Mk I, Vickers Mk. VIB, Cruiser Mk IVA, and Matilda Mk II. On all of these, smoke grenade discharges are mounted on the sides of their turrets.

Is no one else excited by this damn thing ?
No. Most of us play multiplayer only. There is not even a single person working on singleplayer in the dev team for that matter. As I said before. If you're interested in it and enthusiastic about improving singleplayer mode, get in touch with devs and maybe apply for a singleplayer dev position. Otherwise, you can forget about it ever being included in FH2.

Remember this is not just SP. This also includes Coop games. So if you know any Coop players please tell them !

What happened to Gavrant ? Did he resign as a dev ?

I've already been deep into the FH files with the help of MaxP and have started testing the grenade (see Youtube link above). So unless MaxP was thinking of applying I may apply for the positon. If I can convince him to apply there might even be two of us  ;D
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 08-05-2018, 17:05:03
Remember this is not just SP. This also includes Coop games. So if you know any Coop players please tell them !
I don't know any coop players, but I know there are some people playing with bots. To be honest, I don't even know what's the difference between coop and singleplayer, I only use coop occasionally to shoot up some bots while I'm doing my beta tester's job and test stuff that requires some killing, but that's about it really.

What happened to Gavrant ? Did he resign as a dev ?
He retired from FH2 modding. I think he is working on different projects now.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 08-05-2018, 18:05:41
Quote
I don't know any coop players
Why do you need to know them? :)
If they're playing coop, they, obviously, don't playing dm/cq etc. So, they're not present on forums ))
And the number of sp/coop player is, at least, tenfold more that the number of mp-fans.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 08-05-2018, 19:05:08
And the number of sp/coop player is, at least, tenfold more that the number of mp-fans.
That's an interesting statement, where did you get those numbers from?
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MedicalWanderer on 08-05-2018, 20:05:27
Hello everyone ! I made an account especially for the occasion :
I've been playing FH2 for years (in fact I began with FH 0.65 if I remember correctly) and I can testify that MaxP is totally right, the community of sp players is way bigger than most people expect. Most of us follow the forum very closely. I play occasionnaly online since quite recently, but most of the time I play LAN with colleagues.
This work on smoke would be indeed a huge improvement. It's very nice to see that some people have the talent to still improve the sp part of fh2. Thanks for that !
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Stubbfan on 09-05-2018, 08:05:41
Hey guys. If its all thoroughly tested and works without any side effects im sure we can look into including it.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 09-05-2018, 16:05:24
Hello everyone ! I made an account especially for the occasion :
I've been playing FH2 for years (in fact I began with FH 0.65 if I remember correctly) and I can testify that MaxP is totally right, the community of sp players is way bigger than most people expect. Most of us follow the forum very closely. I play occasionnaly online since quite recently, but most of the time I play LAN with colleagues.
This work on smoke would be indeed a huge improvement. It's very nice to see that some people have the talent to still improve the sp part of fh2. Thanks for that !

Hi there MedicalWanderer . Welcome to FH forums !

That smoke has a long history, believe me. Going back to 2010 and a few years before that on BFSP forums when SatNav released his initial implementation of it.

So. Nice to hear there's so many SP/Coop players out there. The thing is tracking the numbers. PR mod have a statistics gathering system in their mod so they track what players are doing. This is the reason, I suspect, that they still put a lot of effort in SP/Coop AI as their numbers show a lot of people using it.

Hey guys. If its all thoroughly tested and works without any side effects im sure we can look into including it.

Sounds good. Do you need any help ? If so what's the process to apply to be a dev for SP/Coop ?

According to MaxP ...

So I guess this would need extensive beta testing in sp/coop games, unless you've already done that.
Not so long. For about 5000+ hours of total playing time ))

I don't know if that was in FH. It probably was his modified version of PR using WW2 maps. So it could probably do with a FH Coop game with a few players just to make sure everything is OK.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 09-05-2018, 18:05:33
Quote
I don't know if that was in FH. It probably was his modified version of PR using WW2 maps. So it could probably do with a FH Coop game with a few players just to make sure everything is OK.
As the MedicalWanderer, I'm the old fan of FH - but from 0.7 :)
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Stubbfan on 09-05-2018, 22:05:19
I checked the files. Interesting, i did not know that you could add a objectspawner to a projectile. I will look into it a bit further. Also, i would not want to add this to the current smoke nades, but rather then make a _ai version of them for singleplayer/coop use.

As for applying as a SP dev, im sure we can use some help there. Are you great at navmeshing and such?
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 10-05-2018, 03:05:38
As for applying as a SP dev, im sure we can use some help there. Are you great at navmeshing and such?
As for me, I'm, unfortunately, not familiar with navmeshing, nor python coding.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 10-05-2018, 11:05:13
And the number of sp/coop player is, at least, tenfold more that the number of mp-fans.
That's an interesting statement, where did you get those numbers from?
I'm still very much interested in this. In case you think I don't believe you: I do, but I'm curious where you got the numbers from.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 10-05-2018, 13:05:37
I'm still very much interested in this. In case you think I don't believe you: I do, but I'm curious where you got the numbers from.
From my own experience, of course.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 10-05-2018, 21:05:41
I'm still very much interested in this. In case you think I don't believe you: I do, but I'm curious where you got the numbers from.
From my own experience, of course.
OK, could you please explain how your experience can tell you that there are at least ~2000 SP players out there? PM me pls if it's NSFW.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 11-05-2018, 05:05:25
Quote
that there are at least ~2000 SP players out there?
Where? At forum? At servers? At home?
Quote
Most Online Today: 23. Most Online Ever: 358 (18-04-2011, 04:04:36)

Or you mean - totally? For about several percents go online.
All of remaining playing SP. They called the sp players.

Man, I'm playing games from 1996. I have a huge online experience, I have a huge sp experience.
I see many of game communities. I see all of these people, and I speak with them.

What do you want to say? That my experience is irregular? Obviously, it is not, 'cause I have no bias toward sp or mp only.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 11-05-2018, 05:05:33
I think he's wondering (and I am too) about how you came to that number. Most of us 'Multiplayer-only' players only ever see about 100 people online at any given time. If I had to guess, from my experience looking at the server browser, I'd say there's only about 100-150 players that currently own this game and play it regularly (multiplayer)

We obviously don't see any of the single player people since there's nothing keeping track of the people playing SP currently. So I'm wondering how you came to that number. Is there a forum with 2000ish members that only discuss SP stuff? or a discord? Youtube videos?

It'd be helpful for the devs to get an idea of who's playing the game. If the SP community is really that big, it might be nice to show them some more love. As it stands now tho, we don't have anyone developing with experience in SP and the devs main focus surrounds MP.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 11-05-2018, 06:05:42
Quote
We obviously don't see any of the single player people since there's nothing keeping track of the people playing SP currently. So I'm wondering how you came to that number. Is there a forum with 2000ish members that only discuss SP stuff? or a discord? Youtube videos?
As I said (and you can see the Stubbfan post) most of sp players are not hanging on the Internet forums/resources, so there is no sense to do any polls.
There is a much difference in sp and mp players behavior, so there is no way to compare it directly in most cases.
- Each game can be more or less interested for sp player. I.e., PR is the mp-biased project, so there're very few of sp/coop players. The mp communities is much more stable.
- Most of adult gamers prefer sp, 'cause there're much of stress in mp for them. So, the high playing difficulty can repel them.
- The sp players are much more spontaneous
etc

Unfortunately, I can't explain it better with my poor english.

Quote
If the SP community is really that big, it might be nice to show them some more love.
It's very big, but, as I said, it is very spontaneous. There is a few numbers of those who're a stable player, but you will know nothing about most of them. Only 1 percent of those who had downloaded my mod, gave me the review via e-mail. It really hurts me.

Ok, let's take the Men of War series for example. Yes, it has a multiplayer, but the game is mostly for singleplayer, so the modding community for it is huge.
Although the AS2 is mp-biased mod (in MoW series), the ratio of players (according to stats now) is 791/36, which means there is 1 mp player for 22 sp.
But - the Men of War has a huge number of sp stuff.
BF2 mods have not.

What was the main problem of FH2 coop? I remember it, of course - there was 0-5 players on servers.
The main problem was the difficulty level.
Since for 10 players it was very easy, for 1 player it was really hard.
Actually, I've set the difficulty in my coop mod for 2 experienced players, and sometimes the team ratio is about 12 vs 90. It's really impossible to win alone, and it's very easy for three of us. So, sometimes there are no challenge at all.

And to the last. Those who're not playing sp/coop, cannot do anything interesting (see the Cretive Assembly games). So there're no point asking us what to do in coop. And, the most important thing - there is no point to ask any community what to do in sp/coop (so, when i see something like "We're working with our community to make a great game" - R.I.P.)
If it's interesting for me - I'll do that. And yes, there will be <1% of any kind of reviews.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Ts4EVER on 11-05-2018, 09:05:48
Pretty sure he's right, ages ago I talked to gavrant or maybe Mad, who has access to the launcher statistics, and FH2 is downloaded by thousands of people, way in excess of what ends up on the servers. Now some of them might play the game only once and then quit (I'm sure that happens a lot), but I don't doubt that the large majority plays SP (God knows why).
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 11-05-2018, 11:05:29
@MaxP: thanks for your explanation.
I think he's wondering (and I am too) about how you came to that number.
I was indeed wondering this, and now I'm getting an idea. I see what you mean, but imo it's still a bit bold to say the SP community is at least ten times bigger than the MP community, but that is just my opnion.

In CoH2, Relic did some research into their playerbase and there it was like this:
- 1/3 of the playerbase plays MP online
- 1/3 plays "mp battles" against the PC
- 1/3 plays the SP campaign only

Following that logic, FH2 would have an SP community of about 200-600 people mostly. Why? Because there is no SP campaign in FH2, so we add those to the second group in the example above (so that makes 1/3 online and 2/3 SP/Coop). Since the online community is roughly 100-200 people who play regularly, that makes the SP community roughly 200-600 people.

I know about the Launcher downloads too, but these numbers are blown up, because of:
- double downloads by same people
- downloaded but never installed
- installed but never played
- played once and then ditched

But for me it would be totally fine if someone steps up to be the SP dev, because he/she will make lots of people happy :)
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 11-05-2018, 12:05:12
Quote
In CoH2, Relic did some research into their playerbase and there it was like this:
I'm sure it's not true (in russian it would be the "истина" term, which means "the real true/in reality" and close to "in fact", instead of the term "правда", which means "true" in a common meaning).
This is what I spoke about.
The relics has the statistics on a Steam database. The people who're buying it at Steam mostly wants to play it online - otherwise there is no sense to do it for that price.
CoH2 has a very poor sp campaign. If you'd look at the CoH, which has a much better campaign set, the numbers will differ, but CoH and CoH2 is much more MP oriented - it leads to a very limited SP playability.
Those who prefer SP in a WW2 entourage, will play the Men of War or Theater of War.
So, to find the exact numbers, we need to summ all of these groups of players. It's impossible, so all that we have is the our own gaming experience. So, the more games you've played, the more statistics you'll have.

Quote
Because there is no SP campaign in FH2
Not only the campaing makes the singleplayer game.
I.e., BF2 SP is easy to launch, easy to learn and it is easy to go out.
The common BF round has a very simple motivation: capture the points, shoot and kill.
No complex game mechanics with hundreds of buttons, no micromanagement, no S/L, no inventory.
So it attracts the people who want to play a such way, as for every other game.

Quote
I know about the Launcher downloads too, but these numbers are blown up, because of:
- double downloads by same people
- downloaded but never installed
- installed but never played
- played once and then ditched
The probability of it is the same for all of player categories.
I.e., we have 200 MP players, and 2000 SP players. The ratio is 1/10 (just for example, remember))
10% of each category have downloaded the mod ten times.
Result: 400/4000=1/10 ratio.
So, if Matthew_Baker said that it was 100-150 mp players (example again), so there were 10-15 of them crying in despair together with another 100-150 sp players, who couldn't install it too :)
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: nysä on 11-05-2018, 13:05:59
Stating the obvious here, but I have always liked the co-op for easy and fast entertainment + the fact you can edit the maps to your own liking (vehicles, weapons). It's certainly lacking the element of suprise and it gets boring after awhile, making you wish that the AI could be (more) erratic.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 11-05-2018, 19:05:19
Maybe the language barrier is at play here, but I think you misunderstand me and it might be the other way around too.

Quote
In CoH2, Relic did some research into their playerbase and there it was like this:
I'm sure it's not true (in russian it would be the "истина" term, which means "the real true/in reality" and close to "in fact", instead of the term "правда", which means "true" in a common meaning).
This is what I spoke about.
The relics has the statistics on a Steam database. The people who're buying it at Steam mostly wants to play it online - otherwise there is no sense to do it for that price.
Actually the research was done by checking the data of the Relic gameservers. Also, the Steam price is not very high, so I wouldn't know why people would not buy it on Steam. There are regular discount events in which you can get it for 50% or even 75% off. Moreover, when you got it for free in Humble bundle for example, you can still play online so I don't get your point here.

Quote
Because there is no SP campaign in FH2
Not only the campaing makes the singleplayer game.
I agree, that's why I added the number to the coop part of the playerbase, it is in favour of your point, but even then I can't get to the amount of SP players you are suggesting.

The probability of it is the same for all of player categories.
I.e., we have 200 MP players, and 2000 SP players. The ratio is 1/10 (just for example, remember))
10% of each category have downloaded the mod ten times.
Result: 400/4000=1/10 ratio.
So, if Matthew_Baker said that it was 100-150 mp players (example again), so there were 10-15 of them crying in despair together with another 100-150 sp players, who couldn't install it too :)
I'm sorry, this part I really didn't understand. I fail to see why I have to believe that the SP community is at least 2000 players, even though I would really like that to be true (although imo it would be even better if all those people tried to play online, but that's a different discussion).
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 11-05-2018, 20:05:42
Quote
Also, the Steam price is not very high, so I wouldn't know why people would not buy it on Steam.
That was my mistake. It can be bought now for the very low price, yes.
When it came out, the price of CoH2 was the same as the Arma 3, which is high enough for us.
Anyway, now this trash is removed from our Steam segment ))

Quote
Actually the research was done by checking the data of the Relic gameservers.
This is the same what I said. Non-official copies of the game doesn't establish connections to the official gameservers.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 12-05-2018, 00:05:36
Non-official copies of the game doesn't establish connections to the official gameservers.
And they can't play SP anymore either without some sort of hack. I wouldn't count those players as "part of the singleplayer community".
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 12-05-2018, 09:05:43
And they can't play SP anymore either without some sort of hack.
Emm... What is the problem? I've downloaded it, I've played the campaign. What I did wrong? :)
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 12-05-2018, 10:05:18
Emm... What is the problem? I've downloaded it, I've played the campaign. What I did wrong? :)
The fact that you downloaded anything without buying the product is wrong to begin with, but I guess Russian mentality is a huge factor here and you probably think it's fine, don't you? :)

Anyways, what Slayer meant is probably, that you had to use a crack of some kind to get the illegally downloaded copy of the game working I guess...?
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 12-05-2018, 10:05:04
"russian mentality" ?! ::)

I thought we were talking about smoke grenades here. OT.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 12-05-2018, 10:05:24
Quote
Anyways, what Slayer meant is probably, that you had to use a crack of some kind to get the illegally downloaded copy of the game working I guess...?
What is the "illegally downloaded"? ))
I think you're definitely don't unsertand what we're talking about.
It was the SP/MP ratio, nothing more.
Don't you know that most of the BF2 players use illegal copies of the game?
What is the relationship of using cracked content, and SP/MP?

But you're talking about your fictitious mentality... Are you some kind of a nationalist?
It is fine for you? Ok, if you can't hear another people arguments, let's stop here.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 12-05-2018, 10:05:27
Quote
Anyways, what Slayer meant is probably, that you had to use a crack of some kind to get the illegally downloaded copy of the game working I guess...?
What is the "illegally downloaded"? ))
What is unofficial copy you mentioned then? Because I understood it as a one you download from a shady russian torrent tracker. Doing that is illegal, because technically, piracy is stealing. Have you ever heard aboout copyrights and stuff? I don't care about the SP/MP ratio, I responded to your message which I quoted there for a reason, so let me to it again:
Emm... What is the problem? I've downloaded it, I've played the campaign. What I did wrong? :)
Donwloading so called "non-official" copies is wrong if you haven't payed for them.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 12-05-2018, 22:05:19
And they can't play SP anymore either without some sort of hack.
Emm... What is the problem? I've downloaded it, I've played the campaign. What I did wrong? :)
If you have the game only, a CD or anything and you didn't activate the game on Steam properly, then you can't play it anymore, not even in SP. Because even to open a game in SP, you have to connect to their gameservers. So if you played the campaign without Steam, then you had a cracked version, because that is the only other option there is. And I think that if we are counting SP vs MP players, that we should stick to non-cracked, thus officially bought/activated games.

Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 13-05-2018, 08:05:02
I don't think we should include people playing on the pirated version of the game to the overall statistic either. Devs are not promoting piracy, so those people were never really the target here, hence why MP is priority. And let's be honest, most of those singleplayer guys who play on "non-official" copies, do so, because they are being forced to. You usually cannot play cracked game online properly if you can play it at all. It may be different nowadays after the gamespy shutdown, but I'm pretty sure most of us MP players still have our original copies of the game with legit CK-keys.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Mayhemic.MAD on 13-05-2018, 13:05:48
Non-official copies of the game doesn't establish connections to the official gameservers.
And they can't play SP anymore either without some sort of hack. I wouldn't count those players as "part of the singleplayer community".

That is wrong. You can install bf2 and play sp or coop without any internet connection. All you need is a CD key valid for the installer, then you use an offline account ingame to play sp or coop. It does not check if your game or account is valid. You can even run a server (not public) and play in LAN with your friends. 
Only when you try to join a public internet server from the ingame list, you need a online account and gamespy will check if your cd key is valid (bought) and not in use already. But since fh2 uses its own gamespy backend, any cd key in the correct format is considered valid.

Since EA chose to shutdown their backend, we can no more differentiate between bought or generated keys. As far as I am concerned, players count. We are not the EA police.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 13-05-2018, 15:05:55
Non-official copies of the game doesn't establish connections to the official gameservers.
And they can't play SP anymore either without some sort of hack. I wouldn't count those players as "part of the singleplayer community".

That is wrong. You can install bf2 and play sp or coop without any internet connection. All you need is a CD key valid for the installer, then you use an offline account ingame to play sp or coop.
Mad, in the example we were talking about CoH2, not BF2 ;)
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: MaxP on 13-05-2018, 19:05:10
Quote
Mad, in the example we were talking about CoH2, not BF2
You're strange. Very strange.

I've asked you to discuss only the sp/mp players ratio.
You write this:
Quote
I don't think we should include people playing on the pirated version of the game to the overall statistic either.
It indicates that you understand, that we're talking not only about CoH2, but about all games.
You don't know the statistics, you don't know the technical aspects that makes players to use some kind of "cracks", like modified exe (like ASP redirecting for BF2) or keys, as the Mayhemic.MAD said.
And if you don't accept my argunments about statistics, why're asking, where I've got this numbers? ))
So please, stop this offtop.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 13-05-2018, 20:05:03
Why would anybody accept your arguments about statistic if they are not based on any real info other than your experience? You even said yourself that there is no way to verify how many people play singleplayer (offline), right? Show us the statistic, I want to believe. Number of downloads says absolutely nothing about active singleplayer / coop players. I, for example, downloaded many BF2 mods in last 10 years, but I never really played any of them except for FH2. I checked them, didn't enjoy them, moved on. On my personal experience, I would say there's a lot of people who did exactly the same thing. What is your counterargument for that?
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Chad1992 on 13-05-2018, 22:05:40
So are you gonna implement the new smoke grenades or not?
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Mayhemic.MAD on 13-05-2018, 23:05:31
No one needs to prove anything here, I think readers here know when there are opinions or verified facts. Its fine any way.

I can tell from my own experience that some of the friends I introduced to FH2 also mostly stuck to playing singleplayer because they felt too bad to compete in MP or wanted to play just a quick game during times when no one else was playing MP. So yes, whatever there is to improve singleplayer, we will consider it.

If anyone is interested in working to improve the FH2 singleplayer experience, join our public discord, since the dev team currently has no one working on that.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 14-05-2018, 17:05:58
Quote
Mad, in the example we were talking about CoH2, not BF2
You're strange. Very strange.
Huh? OK. I mentioned Steam in the example in which I was comparing FH2 SP to CoH2 SP, of which I do know some research results (I don't know of any FH2 research results: I don't think there are any). Because I mentioned Steam, I thought it was clear that I was referring to CoH2 and not FH2 or any other game.

CoH2 was just an example to show how the SP/MP ratio is in some games. It might be the same in FH2, but because FH2 does not have a singleplayer campaign (with which I mean successive levels with scripted events and a continuing storyline), I added those numers to the coop part, which makes 2/3rd of the community play SP and 1/3 MP. But that is only if the ratio is comparable, of which I am not sure because again, I don't have any numbers on FH2.

And because you seemed so sure about the numbers, I was asking you where they were coming from. I still didn't get a clear answer to that. I don't mind if you don't know either or if you are not certain about the numbers, but all I have read until now is
- you know a lot of gaming communities
- SP players don't go online so they are not in forums, etc.
- and yet you know there are thousands of them

That just baffles me.



I've asked you to discuss only the sp/mp players ratio.
You write this:
Quote
I don't think we should include people playing on the pirated version of the game to the overall statistic either.
It indicates that you understand, that we're talking not only about CoH2, but about all games.

After that you quote again, but not me but jan_kurator instead. So please don't paste two things together to make your own, it is just more confusing than it already is given the language barrier and the miscommunication in this thread.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: VolkssturmGewehr on 25-05-2018, 23:05:34
I play coop as I find MP to get a little boring & tedious after 15min or so just mostly staring at the respawn screen. I can't compete with the few players who are able to achieve 60+ kills and 2 deaths. Also I have a ton of my own mods such as the MG15 which can be carried rather than just fixed, I have AI coded all of the CMP vehicles + weapons, added several custom weapons such as the M1895 Nagant, C96 Mauser, MAS-36, created dozens of custom kits, map modifications, etc. I like to play outnumbered with bots usually around 2:1 against me depending if I'm on the defending team or attacking. I'm very much hoping to see if bot support is ever made for the new EF maps. If not then once I get navmesh.exe working I'll do it myself no problem. 
   
Also I downloaded my copy of BF2 from that website that had it up for free for awhile, can't remember the name of it before EA shut them down. As a matter of fact was listed here on the FH2 forums & recommended by several members of this community. Is it even still possible to purchase BF2? I bought it back when it came out what...13 years ago? Lost the CD in one of my many housing moves, and as a matter of fact my current laptop doesn't even have a CD drive. Sucks it means the FH2 is going to be unable to grow since BF2 is no longer available and using pirated 13 year old software that's no longer supported is frowned upon.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 26-05-2018, 01:05:40
Is it even still possible to purchase BF2?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electronic-Arts-Battlefield-PC-DVD/dp/B0006VSLEU/ref=sr_1_2?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1527293746&sr=1-2&keywords=battlefield+2+pc

https://www.amazon.com/Battlefield-2-PC/dp/B0006SL93I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1527293718&sr=8-2&keywords=battlefield%2B2%2Bpc&dpID=51SRQE869DL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch&th=1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Battlefield-2-PC-game-CD-ROM-complete-EA-Games/392019932144?epid=30736549&hash=item5b463573f0:g:Re4AAOSwgpha0lor

Amazon UK has them for less than one GBP.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 26-05-2018, 13:05:50
I play coop as I find MP to get a little boring & tedious after 15min or so just mostly staring at the respawn screen. I can't compete with the few players who are able to achieve 60+ kills and 2 deaths. Also I have a ton of my own mods such as the MG15 which can be carried rather than just fixed, I have AI coded all of the CMP vehicles + weapons, added several custom weapons such as the M1895 Nagant, C96 Mauser, MAS-36, created dozens of custom kits, map modifications, etc. I like to play outnumbered with bots usually around 2:1 against me depending if I'm on the defending team or attacking. I'm very much hoping to see if bot support is ever made for the new EF maps. If not then once I get navmesh.exe working I'll do it myself no problem. 
   
Also I downloaded my copy of BF2 from that website that had it up for free for awhile, can't remember the name of it before EA shut them down. As a matter of fact was listed here on the FH2 forums & recommended by several members of this community. Is it even still possible to purchase BF2? I bought it back when it came out what...13 years ago? Lost the CD in one of my many housing moves, and as a matter of fact my current laptop doesn't even have a CD drive. Sucks it means the FH2 is going to be unable to grow since BF2 is no longer available and using pirated 13 year old software that's no longer supported is frowned upon.

You AI coded all the CMP vehicles ?!  :o I intend to learn how to navmesh maps such as this as well as the new FH releases, unless others get their before me. If they don't then inevitably I will probably get time to do it but that could 6 to 12 months down the line.

Could you help with coding the other smoke grenades (I already have the American M whatever it is grenade that was provided by Maxp) ? If the FH devs don't have time to test and include this (no doubt they are resting after the last huge release!) then a non-official addon and installer could be made.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: VolkssturmGewehr on 27-05-2018, 04:05:52
Lol, "used". I can see it now: people buying BF2 just to be able to play FH2 then being unable to install since it came with a bad key, or...how many PC's now do not have a disc drive. 
 



You AI coded all the CMP vehicles ?!  :o I intend to learn how to navmesh maps such as this as well as the new FH releases, unless others get their before me. If they don't then inevitably I will probably get time to do it but that could 6 to 12 months down the line.

Could you help with coding the other smoke grenades (I already have the American M whatever it is grenade that was provided by Maxp) ? If the FH devs don't have time to test and include this (no doubt they are resting after the last huge release!) then a non-official addon and installer could be made.
 
 
I'm sure I can definitely help. I read thru the thread about AI smoke grenades but got sort of lost with what exactly was going on. I'm assuming Maxp sent you some code through a PM and that's what I'm missing. 
 
I'm already very familiar with navmeshing and know how to do it, but navmesh.exe shuts down without an error message after running for a few seconds. Still trying to figure that out. Without an error to clue me in it's difficult. Once I get it working, I'll start navmeshing all of the new maps along with some of the CMP maps. 
   
Yep, all of the CMP vehicles + weapons I have working with AI. The Avro Lancaster, Me-262, and Bf-110 are especially fun :). I've seen bots rip enemy aircraft apart with the Me-262, and they'll bomb the sh*t out of them with the medium & heavy bombers. Also added a very nice SU-85.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 27-05-2018, 08:05:59
I'm already very familiar with navmeshing and know how to do it, but navmesh.exe shuts down without an error message after running for a few seconds. Still trying to figure that out. Without an error to clue me in it's difficult. Once I get it working, I'll start navmeshing all of the new maps along with some of the CMP maps. 
That's a good news. I bet many singleplayer fans will be happy to see that.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 27-05-2018, 14:05:01

You AI coded all the CMP vehicles ?!  :o I intend to learn how to navmesh maps such as this as well as the new FH releases, unless others get their before me. If they don't then inevitably I will probably get time to do it but that could 6 to 12 months down the line.

Could you help with coding the other smoke grenades (I already have the American M whatever it is grenade that was provided by Maxp) ? If the FH devs don't have time to test and include this (no doubt they are resting after the last huge release!) then a non-official addon and installer could be made.
 
 
I'm sure I can definitely help. I read thru the thread about AI smoke grenades but got sort of lost with what exactly was going on. I'm assuming Maxp sent you some code through a PM and that's what I'm missing.
 
I'm already very familiar with navmeshing and know how to do it, but navmesh.exe shuts down without an error message after running for a few seconds. Still trying to figure that out. Without an error to clue me in it's difficult. Once I get it working, I'll start navmeshing all of the new maps along with some of the CMP maps.

Check your PM's. That sounds really promising VolkssturmGewehr  8) ! I can help with testing. I have some experience with setting up installers.
   
Quote
Yep, all of the CMP vehicles + weapons I have working with AI. The Avro Lancaster, Me-262, and Bf-110 are especially fun :). I've seen bots rip enemy aircraft apart with the Me-262, and they'll bomb the sh*t out of them with the medium & heavy bombers. Also added a very nice SU-85.

Is that Clivewil's Lancaster ?
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: GIJordncc1701d on 27-05-2018, 16:05:00
I feel like I could add a bit here in regards to the amount of offline players.

I've almost always played offline, but I think it started that way for me because of an unfortunate circumstance: bad internet. I had dial up internet until 2010 (whooray for rural Texas), after which I only got slightly faster internet, but still nothing capable of playing even FH2 online. So therefore, all of my gaming is centered around offline play. I can't say this is the case of most offline players, but if there's one thing I've learned in life, where there's one, there's more (this is especially true for scorpions, which we have plenty of in Texas). I have two other friends who used to play FH2 offline a lot, and up until a few years ago we played regularly every Sunday. I'm the only one of us who still plays, most of them being terrible traitors to the newer battlefield games. I've kind of gotten out of most gaming, as being married, being into cars, into photography, and working a 60+ hour a week job takes a lot of time. FH2 is the only game I still play at all, and it's almost always offline, as when I do go on at random, the servers are empty and I'm only looking for ~30 minutes of gameplay.

So, I'd bet there are a lot of people playing offline like me, as it can be a great game for quick, fun action with very little time commitment. I think improving offline play would be greatly appreciated by quite a few people, myself very much included!
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Slayer on 27-05-2018, 18:05:43
Lol, "used". I can see it now: people buying BF2 just to be able to play FH2 then being unable to install since it came with a bad key, or...how many PC's now do not have a disc drive. 
Look, you asked a question, I gave you an answer. If you don't wanna run the risk of a used cd key, buy a new one, they are still available as well.
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: jan_kurator on 27-05-2018, 19:05:15
Lol, "used". I can see it now: people buying BF2 just to be able to play FH2 then being unable to install since it came with a bad key, or...how many PC's now do not have a disc drive. 
Look, you asked a question, I gave you an answer. If you don't wanna run the risk of a used cd key, buy a new one, they are still available as well.
As far as I understand, there's no need for that anymore, and no need to argue about it either. Looks like radiosmersh's new standalone installer solved this problem once and for all:

From now on, CD-key is automatically generated from current date/time and hardware (like CPU model, HDD serial number, etc.), which provides for its absolute uniqueness

 8)
Title: Re: Inclusion of now tested and working bot blocking smoke in SP/Coop
Post by: Gattobuono on 31-05-2018, 20:05:10
but I don't doubt that the large majority plays SP (God knows why).

I play exclusively SP.

In the past I've put 100's of hours into MP on RO2, BFBC2, BF3, and many other games.
TBH, I got sick and tired of playing with or against random idiots on the internet. Got tired of the bunny hopping trolls, the team-killers, the kill-streakers, and, last but not list, the pseudo-operator milsim tough guys that dominate games such as PR.

I'd rather play with AI, if they do stupid stuff at least they've got an excuse ... they're bots!

... and besides, for tactical team-work with real friends I have my milsim style airsoft group.

So please give SP more love, I know of a lot of people who feel just like me, and SP is becoming a real rarity these days. Look at Post Scriptum and Hell Let Loose ... no single player! :-(

Thanks for an amazing mod! :-)