# Forgotten Hope Public Forum

## Forgotten Hope 2 => Modding => Topic started by: blander on 25-02-2018, 06:02:01

Title: Berlin
Post by: blander on 25-02-2018, 06:02:01
Hello!

I started to learn how to map about 2 weeks ago, now I kicked off with a Berlin map. It´s in its very early stages.

It will have push mode, with 4 sectors to attack/defend, probably 2 flags each. I intend to create a Pantherturm with the existing Panther turret model and replace the french building sign textures with german ones.

1 IS-2
2 T34-85
1 SU-152
1 Katyusha (after capping first sector)

1 King Tiger (after losing first sector)
1 Panther (after losing first sector)

Any suggestions are more than welcome, beta-testers also!

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9e6PNe.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9eeqkQ.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9eeHOJ.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9eeSyou.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Seth_Soldier on 25-02-2018, 11:02:18
Remember not to do too much art (placing small things, creating complex defensive position ike trenches etc ...) but rather focus on a first gameplay version with raw building placement and provide a global idea how you want it to be played
(very difficult because players often can ruin you gameplay if you didn't think about every exploit possible)

Also remember what kind of ww2 experience you want your player to feel. You must unconsciously force them to experiment it and avoid them to break it with unrealistic/stupid behaviour.

If you can't reproduce a real location, it's fine. What is important is the ww2 feeling and the right content used.

From your first screenshot, i guess you want to go for the streets fights.
Some of my feelings about street fights are :
Quote
large deadly street dominated by german tank :
- long distance tank battle
- easiest way to advance if soviet succeed to destroy german tanks

These large deadly road could force the player to use parallel small deadly street (only one tank large), or it could be the next sector after the large street (this way, your gameplay can radically change each sector):
- deadly for tank without infantery
- panzerfaust fest (<- you must be carefull where you place open building and clise building - think about ramelle)
- infantery fight will be the most important.
- narrow street increase the action
- if the street aren't narrow to one tank, then place obstacle so only a tank can maneuver 1 at a time.

The beginning of the map should be relatively easy for the soviet. But the last sector should be a meat grinder.
Soviet get artillery.
German can have a nice mix of poor infantery class (carcano, obsolete stuff) and excellent class (stg44).
The map could be someting like 1st sector = berlin outskirt or openfield garden, 2nd sector = large street, 3rd sector = narrow street

Good luck !
As i often say, it takes 20% of the total time to create 80% of a map.
But you need 80% the total time to finish it !
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 25-02-2018, 14:02:00
Ambitious project :)

First thought: 4 sectors with 2 flags each: too much (unneeded complexity, esp for a first map). Focus on less sectors, for instance 3 with 2 flags each.

Second thought: what Seth said. Place yourself in the biggest troll out there and try to abuse every aspect of your map, then think about solutions to prevent it.

Last thought: like I said, ambitious project, but it'd be nice if it will be finished. I wish you a lot of stamina!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 25-02-2018, 23:02:52
I read the recommendations about mapmaking. The thing is, some times I just mix up the steps, not to get too bored or saturated of one task. Some times I place roads, other times I place buildings, fix exploits, add art, place buildings, modify textures and height, etc.

I don´t want to reproduce a real location. Instead, some parts of the map (like the first screenshot) will have similarities with real photos, all over the map. So it will look like Berlin to some degree.

The general infantry/tank balance idea would be that the only way the russians could effectively advance through the streets is with tank support on the front, which I want it to be a constant factor. What will change, from sector to sector, is what the germans have to deal with the soviet tanks. In some parts only faust/explosives/schreck, other sectors AT guns and tanks. View distance is set to high for long range combat.

I thought about the idea of obsolete weapons. Maybe the main kits (K98, StG44) could be limited, so a few people would be forced to use volksturm weapons.

It´s too late to make an outskirt sector. Kickoff for the russians is the first screenshot. It has 3 streets, connected in some points. The germans have a fixed 88 and a movable Pak40. Quite little to deal with 4 heavy tanks, but that´s the whole idea.

I have the whole map layout on paper, the next sector would be an open square, used as an AA site for the germans (based on real photo).

The 3rd sector should have a main very wide street and a Pantherturm at the end of it (based on real photo). I´m also thinking about modding a static Tiger I simulating it has no fuel, only turret usable. This sector should feature a long range tank/arty engagement.

The last sector should have very narrow streets, a total meat grinder.

It is an ambitious Project indeed. The initial idea of 4 sectors might be too much as you say, I´ll see how it goes as I create it, I hope I can include all 4. I do check every possible abuse regularly.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 26-02-2018, 00:02:05
High viewdistance is for flying. I assume you don't have planes on this map planned (and otherwise I advise you now to not put them on), so I'd lower the viewdistance.

Not only is medium enough for urban tank combat, but it will also prevent your map from lagging like hell. All visible objects will need to be generated, so with medium you will have less of those, improving the performance of your map. Closed buildings also improve the performance, so don't put too many open buildings in (a frequently made mistake by - starting - mappers).
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-02-2018, 01:02:42
There will be no planes here. The viewdistance is on the limit where you can see from one end to the other of the longest street. I know it increases lag, but otherwise tank combat would be too limited. As a general rule I used closed buildings as default. Then I replaced them with open ones only where I need them, to provide cover for the advancing/defending troops. I placed a zig-zag pattern of closed and open buildings on both sides of the street around the hot areas.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-03-2018, 05:03:25
I have a question: what do I have to do to replace an existing texture with one I made myself? For example, some buildings I used have french ads, I want to replace the original texture files and put german ads instead. Where should I place the files? How do I route the static to the new texture file?

Maybe I have to make a new static and add it to the map folder, all the same but just with a different texture?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Roughbeak on 02-03-2018, 17:03:47
Hi, this is called texture suffixing.

For an example in "Objects\StaticObjects\France\textures\" there is a texture called "france_propaganda_c.dds." As you can see there are some additional textures with suffixing including "_brest" and "_phl."
Perhaps, a mapper can explain this better than I can, but in order for the suffixes to work, a map's "Init.con" file needs to contain the characters such as "_brest" or "_phl" in the appropriate code spot.

For an example what I mean in the Init.con file:
Code: [Select]
if v_arg1 == BF2EditorLevelSettings.CustomTextureSuffix "brest"elsetexturemanager.customTextureSuffix "brest"endIf
In your case, you could make it as "berlin" (along with your new "_berlin" texture suffix). Hope this helps! :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-03-2018, 02:03:19
Thank you, I will look into it!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 03-03-2018, 05:03:05
Berlin was a HUGE battle. Impossible to duplicate in a FH2 map.

You should narrow your focus on a particular sector of the battle.

I hear Forgotten Hope: Secret Weapon has a Pretty nice Reichstag static that could be ported over to FH2.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/forgotten-hope-secret-weapon/images/fall-of-berlin

;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-03-2018, 06:03:59
Oh man that looks nice but I already have to figure out lots of stuff, I did not expect to replicate a real place, I would have to start the map from 0 using a 1:1 scale to include the Reichstag.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 04-03-2018, 14:03:48
Agreed on the panzerfausts and non-static Pak 40(s). Not too sure about the fixed 88, it would be always easy to wipe out from a distance, this would also apply to the Tiger I since it also opposes no threat to heavier Soviet tanks, esp. when facing head-on (IS-2's frontal armour is impenetrable).
Few Panzer IV/70(V) were used to defend Berlin, that might be suitable due it's low profile and rare appearance of the vehicle. Even one "Stuka zu fuß" might work well, considering it as a balance factor and the fact they were there.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-03-2018, 06:03:36
The only tank (in the map) that cannot be touched from the front by an 88 is the IS-2, besides the map design allows for German infantry to reach the tank before it gets in range of the first 88. In addition, the IS-2 driver might decide not to go through the main street where the 88 is. That´s were the strategy and human factor kicks in.

There were of course different kinds of German tanks in Berlin. I do not want to place more than 2 though to generate the feel of being low in tank numbers compared to the russians. Which could those 2 tanks be... I don´t know yet. Maybe I could just go for the ones that are more rarely used in the whole FH2 map pool. The Stuka zu fuß is a possibility too, though I initially thought of giving the germans no artillery at all, to simulate the same feel as with the tanks.

The idea about the static Tiger I was to simulate the lack of fuel, the tank to be used could be a different one.

It is important to make a decision about what tanks will the germans have. Now I started to make the 2nd sector where german armor gets into battle. The design of the map should make it easier for the german infantry to defend if they only had lets say a Jagdpanzer IV and a StuG III as tank force. But if instead of that a Tiger II and a Panther were the tanks available then I should change some things in the map.

Thanks for all the help and feedback, looking forward to making an enjoyable map!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 05-03-2018, 10:03:52
The idea about the static Tiger I was to simulate the lack of fuel, the tank to be used could be a different one.

Liking the idea. Maybe placing the Tiger behind some obstacle/another tank wreck would give it a bit more protection, similar to the one at Altonaer Straße:

(http://i2.tinypic.com/v8hgrp.jpg)

Absolutely agree on using more unique AFVs on the map, incl. "ad hoc" solutions or those that were not necessarily the latest or most efficient types. Sd.Kfz.251/22 and Sd.Kfz.234/4 (vehicles that we don't have ATM) were both very common in Berlin and in urban fighting scenario they'd probably function better than a non-static Pak 40 in terms of agility, speed. Anyway, looking forward to updates on this map  8)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-03-2018, 16:03:19
I will take the idea of that picture. I saw those debris barricades on other pics and I replicated them already. I will soon post some pics, though the art is rough still, but that doesn´t matter much at this point of the map. Now I´m focusing on finishing the last touches of the balancing of the first sector.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-03-2018, 01:03:53
What if I also modified the sound files of the tank ammo selection and reload to include voices like "load HE" and "loaded"? I wonder if the FH2 devs ever considered that and dumped it for practical reasons.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-03-2018, 10:03:29
how is that related to the map? I doubt devs ever considered such thing for a simple reason: there are no voice commands for that in 8 languages used in FH2.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-03-2018, 12:03:06
Just another minor detail that comes to my mind and that I guess I can easily implement. I will just need 2 languages here and they don´t need to match the mod´s voices.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-03-2018, 04:03:51
(https://i.imgur.com/bneAasj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7sr6MUE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3rQ1m4C.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aFpYANz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uOozxD7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HOcLhro.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bmlPntj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fuwAVpa.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8bVBeJ3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dtPzD4z.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LELrxYK.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 08:03:09
Looking good already. Grey Flak is a nice touch  :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 08-03-2018, 09:03:23
AFAIK wrong though for 1945.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 10:03:42
You could say the same thing about the half of German equipment left in April 1945. Sure, there were probably more Flak 36/37 in use, but visually it's pretty close match and it blends in with the overall grey-ish tone of the map.

(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/un-gi-assis-sur-un-canon-antiarien-allemand-le-reichstag-en-dtruit-picture-id690437294)

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6157/6188891188_989251038a_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 08-03-2018, 17:03:58
Looks great!
Make sure to chew up that nice little park a bit.
We can play test it during the scrim of the next campaign, maybe.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 18:03:27
The screens etc... are nice to see, but do you have a minimap that you can show? Something that shows the overall gameplay layout and how the player will move through the city and sectors?

Like this;
(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/devblog/Prokhorovka/prok_blog_3.jpg)
or this;
(http://i.imgur.com/tcdFQEM.png)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-03-2018, 18:03:00
Alright will change the Flak color then.

The green area is the second sector of the map which is completely raw, it has no detail at the moment.

To be honest I didn´t learn how to generate the minimap yet. Is it easy to do?

I still have to figure out how to re-texture town signs and how to make the static Tiger and Pantherturm. Right now I just want to finish at least the first 2 sectors of the map, I want to test it with players and check out the general balance.

About the map´s greyish look, the skybox and lightning are just test, I will look into that much later, don´t really care for the moment.

Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 18:03:05
With your map open in the level editor go to the Editor>General Bar on the right, click on the generate button, to get a very basic minimap.

Sometimes you have to go to the bottom tab and run the scripts:  minCulldistance 2000 and noLods 1 if certain buildings etc... don't show up
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 20:03:35
Alright will change the Flak color then.

Nooooo..  :o Not complaing about the colors at all. Greyish theme would be realistic, since the spring of '45 was rather cold (with a dull sun) as you can see in this picture from Berlin:

(http://c7.alamy.com/comp/DKYWNA/soldiers-of-the-german-wehrmacht-are-taken-as-prisoners-by-the-red-DKYWNA.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 20:03:35
I think he’s talking about the dunkelgrau flak gun. TS pointed out it should be dunkelgelb since the Germans switched to that as their base paint color in 1943.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 21:03:18
True, but if you look at the pictures from 1944-45 you will notice many of the German A.A. guns (from Flakvierling to Flak 40) were still in grey, even the ones mounted on otherwise camouflaged vehicles.

(http://c7.alamy.com/comp/BBNAGN/events-second-world-war-wwii-russia-1944-1945-german-88-mm-anti-aircraft-BBNAGN.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 22:03:23
I wouldn't say "many." It's certainly possible to have a dunkelgrau flak gun that survived until the end of the war, but I'd say that the vast majority of them would've been dunkelgelb by that point. Considering the directive went out in February of 1943, there's a much higher chance that a flak gun in '45 would've been created after that time.

It's also hard to judge B&W images when it comes to color. Lighting, contrast etc... can all effect how they look. The one that you posted in front of the Reichstag looks dark;
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-12.jpg)

while other photos look light;
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/berlin-place_9_17.jpg)
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-26.jpg)
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-29.jpg)
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-22.jpg)

It's also good to keep the 88 the same color as the pak40s etc... that are being used.

If the map is about a specific unit in Berlin, or a specific sector where there's evidence of dunkelgrau being used, then that would justify going against the status quo. But in general, dunkelgelb would've been much more common.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-03-2018, 00:03:32
Quote
With your map open in the level editor go to the Editor>General Bar on the right, click on the generate button, to get a very basic minimap.

I don´t find the generate button. I haven´t investigated at all about the minimap generation. Unless it´s something easy I don´t want ot waste too much time on it since not even half of the map´s main layout is done. I expect to finish that this week.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 09-03-2018, 08:03:54
Putting any type of applique armour on the AFVs was also strictly forbidden, but how many units followed this order? German High Command was busy giving all types of nitpicking directives even late as April '45, but not too many cared to follow any of them.

Anyways, Flak(s) you posted are not all the same, unless someone re-did the killrings and moved the position for (almost) each single shot. Majority of Berlin's Flak equipment area was already set (in reserve) between 1940-42, after the bombing campaigns lauched by the RAF. But sure, lets go camo or better yet, ambush camo on everything   :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 09-03-2018, 14:03:05
The "generate" minimap button is "show".  It's under minimap near the bottom of the right hand side menu.

Don't worry about your flak gun color at this point in your map.  That stuff is so easy to change at the last minute.  You wont finalize it until after a good play test.  Someone can help you make custom textures if you need it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-03-2018, 17:03:57
I thought that minimap would appear in-game but it doesn´t, its only in the editor. I guess I can take a screenshot from the editor so you can have a look.

I just extracted all the CMP files and was glad to see that they have a lot of great statics, now I have a wider set of buildings to place, the map is looking much nicer now since it was getting too reppetitive. I think no other map so far has so many clumped up buildings like this one.

I guess I will figure out how to make the textures and the new vehicles I need since I just need to modify existing stuff and I´ve done this in FH1. Nevertheless it would be great if somebody wanted to help me with that so I can finish the mapping faster.

The textures I need are:

- Replacing all existing french signs with german ones (ads and such things on buildings).
- Modifying other signs to make them unique for this map and sticking them to specific buildings around the map (Hotel, Restaurant, etc)
- Just a few building skins could have different touches to make them unique.
- Minor details to german and soviet vehicles.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-03-2018, 21:03:39
Buildings on the top left are not showing but you get the idea. Note you have to scroll right to see the whole pic.

First part has 3 long streets to go through, connected together in some points.

Second part has short streets, it´s gonna be more difficult for the tanks to survive there. There is also an anti-tank ditch and tank blockers. As a tanker I would sit on the open green part and soften up the first line of german defense. As russians conquer the first sector german tanks should spawn at the other end of the map. They should reach the second sector if the infantry manages to hold it long enough.

(https://i.imgur.com/2a22JHR.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 09-03-2018, 21:03:22
You have to rename the minimap "ingamemap" and then move it to your HUD/Minimap folder manually.
For the final version, follow some of these instructions to make it look great:
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f189-modding-tutorials/31987-how-make-perfect-minimap.html  Then compress it DXT1, I think.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 09-03-2018, 22:03:08
A little more in-depth about the minimap; when you click the 'generate' button it makes a file called minimap.dds in C:\Program Files (x86)\EA GAMES\Battlefield 2\mods\fh2\levels\(your_map_name)\Editor.

That's what I wanted to look at to get a better overview of the map, but the screenshot helps :)

To make that minimap show up in game you need to take that minimap file and copy it to your HUD/Minimap folder and name it ingamemap.dds. All the rest of that stuff in the PR tutorial is kinda when the map is finalized, a basic minimap is fine for now.

EDIT:
I took a look at the layout and I'm glad you have a nice plan going :) just a few notes that might help you as you develop;

Designing Forgotten Hope 2 Maps (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21296.msg350358#msg350358)
This is a nice write up TS did about sector push gameplay design. It's helpful to keep those things in mind as you map.

Also, considering an urban map like this, keep in mind other FH2 urban maps (the good and the bad) and take lessons about what works well (and what doesn't :D)

For example; Battle of Brest also has 3 main 'routes' into each flag, but those routes tend to get crowded with 100 players on a server and makes for very meat grinder/ stagnant gameplay.

Fall of Tobruk on the other hand is another example of an Urban map that is a bit more open and the gameplay flows a little better.

You've already got your 'sectors' laid out which is good. Keep those in mind as you map and how the map should progress. Most professional maps have a 'narrative' where each Sector is categorized by a certain 'theme' or 'feel.' That makes the map dynamic and fun for the player to progress through. for example Seelow has the player fighting through the flood plains in the first sector, the ridge/ trenches in the second sector and the destroyed town in the third (St Vith has a nice narrative too).

You don't have to think too much about specific buildings or adding detail statics just yet, but it's good to keep in mind your 'narrative' (i.e. first sector is ruins, second sector is fighting over the open square or whatever)

It's good to start by just placing the major statics at this point to get an idea for how the player will move through the map so I wouldn't worry about building textures or vehicle textures etc... just yet.

Good stuff! :D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 10-03-2018, 02:03:46
So much design reading got me dizzy. Will this be a meat grinder? Well, to a degree, yes. If the situation turns out to be unbareable I planned to just keep all building placements but move/remove flags and spawnpoints. That´s the main way I have here to balance the map after testing with players.

Since this could become a grenade fest I will probably limit grenade kits, at least on the german side. I tried to place open buildings in a way the defenders should have to occupy them all and the attackers would have to clear every house as they advance.

Maybe the map is already needing some testing, I wouldn´t like to add more art and details if say another street needs to be added to decompress the meat grinder.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 11-03-2018, 00:03:41
I'd love it if you wouldn't limit grenade kits per se, but solve it by limiting the number of grenades per kit (one instead of more than one), and make it hard to rearm them at an ammo point.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 11-03-2018, 00:03:55
I thought about having the main rifle kit without any grenades to simbolize the supplies and ammo shortage. It could also be limited to 1 grenade per kit as you say, I guess it needs testing with actual players to see what´s best.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 11-03-2018, 09:03:17
I made the second sector a bit bigger for more flanking. Here are some raw pics.

First flag:

(https://i.imgur.com/esvVW1z.jpg)

Approaches:

(https://i.imgur.com/rH2WsVt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/IWbh1w4.jpg)

Second flag (will probably become a hospital):

(https://i.imgur.com/cmAF57S.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ms8ncW1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2pNwcxm.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 11-03-2018, 17:03:15
Looking good there, but it's still a bit sterile (esp the last two). I assume you're gonna add details to make it more "alive" as soon as gameplay is finished?

The houses on the first one look superbright, but I guess you'll be able to fix that with lightmaps.

Make sure you upload it here when it's finished so we can test it ingame :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 07:03:10
I´m working on those details now... at least until I figure out what to do for the third sector. I thought about a river crossing but the bridge could end up being a new Ramelle, which I don´t want. Maybe it could be just for the looks, with no real fighting on it.

I guess it will take me 4-5 months to finish it 100%.

I can upload it whenever testers are available. Sector 1 and 2 are playable right now.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 12-03-2018, 16:03:21
If you really want a good test, have something playable in time for the opening of the next CMP campaign.  We can get you 40-80 players, depending on whether we put it in the scrims or just an opening day event.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 16:03:59
Where can I get more info about the CMP campaign? I need to speak to someone in charge of getting the maps set for the server and for distribution among the players. I suppose it´s done via Community Updater, right? How can I get to talk with those guys?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 12-03-2018, 16:03:48
Go to the website https://cmp-gaming.com/ and join their Discord or just post on the website.  I'll talk to them about adding you to the Dev team.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 12-03-2018, 17:03:41
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-03-2018, 20:03:26
If you really want a good test, have something playable in time for the opening of the next CMP campaign.  We can get you 40-80 players, depending on whether we put it in the scrims or just an opening day event.
That would be great for balance related stuff. If you need testing to see if the map works OK when it comes to memory usage, static placement, etc. then just upload it here so we can download it and try it out. For balance you would need a lot of players, for the other stuff not. There would smaller numbers be better actually, because the other players would simply distract too much from the testing.

For third sector I'd advise to do something simple, as the attacking team has to work through two sectors before they get there. So a bridge crossing would indeed be a bit much. Maybe a huge building in which they have to capture both the basement and the upper floors would work, or two different buildings opposite each other on a square or something.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: RayderPSG on 12-03-2018, 22:03:33
Where can I get more info about the CMP campaign? I need to speak to someone in charge of getting the maps set for the server and for distribution among the players. I suppose it´s done via Community Updater, right? How can I get to talk with those guys?

Blander, en la página cmp-gaming.com! Ya estás registrado de hecho jaja. Ahí hay mappers y demás, habla con ellos.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 22:03:26
Double post
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 22:03:54
Thank you! I will look into that. Gracias Rayder!

I have 2 sectors left to make, I thought that one could have a wide street or boulevard (Unter Den Linden stylish???) to have a less claustrophobic battlefield. It could include more open spaces like a square as you said, Slayer.

I wanted to save the huge building flag for last, but it could be done in the third sector. If that is the case, I have no idea of what to do (different) in the fourth sector. I have to take into consideration that all sectors have to be at least relatively tank-friendly. If I make a flag where tanks play no role then the logic says tank drivers would ditch them as soon as they get to the infantry-only area. The flag has to be made in a way that tanks can participate, even if they can´t get into the flagzone themselves. I did this in the first sector but it would be harder to do in a huge building. Maybe it could be layed out in a way that russian tanks still play a role cutting off german respawning players attempting to get into the flag building.

I would love to replicate a real place but it wouldn´t look good since I lack the specific statics.

All ideas are welcome to improve the map!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-03-2018, 23:03:37
Oh right, you have four sectors. Sorry, I still thought from the three sectors perspective ;)

You could bind the tankspawns to the second sector so that as soon as it's lost, they won't respawn: problem solved.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 13-03-2018, 00:03:26
It is indeed a good idea, but it is the opposite to what I planned. I expected to have a tank-to-tank battle around the last 2 sectors. I expected it to work the opposite way, the more the map progresses, the more vehicles become available.

This is what I have in mind so far for soviet tank/arty loadout:

* 1  IS-2
* 2  T-34/85
* 1  SU-152
* 1 Katyusha (after capping 1st sector)
* 1 T-34/76 (after capping 2nd sector)
* Maybe more arty for balance

* 1 Panther G (after losing 1st sector)
* 1 Tiger II (after losing 2nd sector)
* 1 Nebelwerfer at 2nd sector
* Multiple PaK40 and 88mm Flak
* Static Tiger I and Pantherthurm
* Maybe a Stuka zu Fuß if necessary for balance

There will be no wrench kit. Once static guns are destroyed there is no coming back to life. Tanks and other vehicles will have a long respawn time. The idea is to have players play smart and not waste the equipment. That´s an important flaw I find in some maps. I will also remove SL spawns. Distances are not long so there will not be too much boring running times, it´s all about playing smart and as a team, that is what I want to encourage.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FHMax3 on 13-03-2018, 10:03:31
I don't think a T-34 76 is needed.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 13-03-2018, 16:03:11
It is indeed a good idea, but it is the opposite to what I planned.
OK, it's your map ofc, so go ahead :) It's just a bit more ligical that if you fight yourself into a trwon's center, that it becomes more and more an infantry fight and that tanks should play less and less of a role. Think of it as outskirts - suburb - quarter - town center. Most vehicle traffic in peacetime would be in outskirts, and like in peacetime, vehicles have more trouble driving around in town center. So, that's my chain of thoughts, but it's all a matter of opinion of course.

There will be no wrench kit. Once static guns are destroyed there is no coming back to life. Tanks and other vehicles will have a long respawn time. The idea is to have players play smart and not waste the equipment. That´s an important flaw I find in some maps. I will also remove SL spawns. Distances are not long so there will not be too much boring running times, it´s all about playing smart and as a team, that is what I want to encourage.
I understand, but most players will not play smart, just take a look at an average public round. Not having a wrench might look like a nice plan, but it will cause frustration: players expect that they can repair static guns, vehicles and what not. Maybe try to encourage smart gameplay in different ways, so that you don't force them.

Same goes for SL spawn btw. I think you should try and finish the map first with all the "normal" gameplay properties of FH2, because that way it can be easily seen if things work out or not. After that you could try and experiment on things, like no SL spawn. If you do it rightaway, there is little to compare it to, and then the testing will be a little obsolete and just based on gut feelings.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 13-03-2018, 18:03:51
^ this.

You need to remember that when creating a map, especially your first map, you should accomodate to the mod and existing gameplay mechanics that come with it, not the other way around. That means your map supposed to work within the mod without any changes, especially to basic mechanics like SL spawn etc. Otherwise we are not talking about mapping here anymore, but about creating a minimod, so keep it simple.

Also note, that changing gameplay mechanics to YOUR LIKINGS, but only map side is probably not the best idea because, gameplay for the most part is, and should always be global (affect mod as a whole), and due to that fact, be well known and easily understandable by ALL players in game. Any deviation from that will be unclear, confusing or frustrating at least to some people and you don't want that. Not to mention that it is a simple matter of taste. You like when people play smart, others like to just run n' gun. A good map should satisfy them all.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-03-2018, 00:03:25
The outskirts - suburb - quarter - town center is a nice setup for the map but since I started out with lots of tall appartments it´s already too late to go for that, unfortunately I didn´t think of that when I started the map.

I can leave the SL spawn but I am definately limiting the wrenches, maybe even just to a few pickups. Think of Ramelle. A guy sitting on the Tiger spamming F2 F3 F4 to dodge bullets like in Matrix while repairing a tank on the move in the middle of a fight in a clogged up street? I don´t want that for my map. It´s not about my likings, it´s about avoiding exploits.

About the T34 76, I saw a picture with one in Berlin. It´s just an idea, nothing final.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 15-03-2018, 05:03:29
I wouldn't worry too much about the gameplay and loadout stuff too much right now.  Just get your map looking good.  That stuff is pretty easy to change when the time comes.
I don't know if you have figured it out yet, but there is no way the FH2 Devs are going to take and release your map in the official mod, so you should consider what will become of it.  Your only real hope is to get it released by the custom community.  It may end up in a tournament.  It might end up getting nav-meshed for single player.  And it might end up released as a pubby map in the CMP map pack.  In each case, you would have different set up and gameplay concerns.  BTW, the current Pacific maps with ships in the CMP don't have spawn-in wrench kits.  This is to avoid ship repair exploit.  Players complain in all-chat but they are certainly used to not being able to repair everything.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-03-2018, 05:03:10
Yes, my goal is to have the map in the CMP pool. I´m using CMP statics to have more variation. Some are sorta buggy, I´m doing my best to keep them and making bugs the least noticeable.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-03-2018, 06:03:19
I found out map CTD when I spot for arty with binoculars. What could this be?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 15-03-2018, 14:03:22
“Your crash is caused by your tmp.con being empty. You need to add the following lines to it to solve the crashes:

run ClientArchives.con

run ../../objects/Common/CommonSpawners.con

physics.airDensityZeroAtHeight 3000
windmanager.globalWindSpeed 1
windmanager.globalWinddirection 0.66/-0.5/0.66”
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 15-03-2018, 20:03:17
I wouldn't worry too much about the gameplay and loadout stuff too much right now.  Just get your map looking good.
Lol, this is exactly what he should not do. Gameplay comes first, and then I don't mean balance, but what you need to place static wise, where the routes to flags are, how many routes to the same flag there are etc. etc. That's first. If that fails, the map will never work, as we can see in various examples on #1.

Making the map "look good" is the last thing you do, after everything is set in stone what the map is gonna play like.

And stating that players are "used to" not being able to repair everything while there are 45 stock maps and I don't know how many CMP maps of which there are 4 (?) on which you can't repair sh*t (I understand the goal of it but the means is way too harsh imo because it effects land battle too much), well, that's just overstating things dramatically.

...but I am definately limiting the wrenches, maybe even just to a few pickups.
Limiting stuff is OK if things become too spammy. There are other ways to prevent people to zap-repair things like the Tiger. For example you could make it necessary to keep a number of footsoldiers for capping flags (plaving them inside a courtyard or something, so tanks can't reach them), otherwise the team can't win.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-03-2018, 09:03:29
Thanks Matthew_Baker, that fixed the spotting problem.

Speaking of german spawnable kits. Is it possible (im 99% sure it is) to have different uniforms depending on the kit? If it is, would it fit the map? For example I could have some kits wearing feldgrau uniforms and others with a cammo pattern. I guess this would be quite historical in fact. What do you think about it? Would it look good and/or be correct?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 17-03-2018, 11:03:31
Yes, that is how it works. Just look at any init.con to see the different models.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 18-03-2018, 10:03:52
I used a CMP static which is causing trouble. It´s a cobblestone sidewalk. It looks great but something is wrong with the colmesh maybe. Vehicles act strange on it. In the best case they just turn super mega fast on it. In the worst case they just do crazy things and can even get launched into the air.

I want to keep the static, even though it is taking me hours to figure out how to fix this. I have 2 ways:

1. Bypass the bug, set the static with no colmesh and tweak the terrain so that it is just below the sidewalk, so you won´t notice it has no colmesh.

2. Find and fix the bug.

I tried creating a copy of the static with a new name and just replaced the material used. I put sand in instead of the original concrete. The buggy effect on vehicles was unaffected.

What do you recommend?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 18-03-2018, 15:03:17
I recommend you get on discord and the CMP map pack channel and we can see if we can hunt down the bug.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-03-2018, 06:03:34
Will do. One CMP building also has awful lighting and it´s an important building in the map cause it´s a flag and it´s quite big. I realised I can´t stop and fix these issues, I would never be able to complete the map at this pace. I just made those bugs less noticeable and moved on. More pics coming soon.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 22-03-2018, 05:03:35
The last thing I did was placing trees and now the map crashes.

14%
check mapdata file
check gameplay.con
Crash on dedicated server (server side crash) - Missing surrounding terrain .raw files
Check your navmesh (possible isolated vertices)

I didn´t use overgrowth, just manual tree placing. Could there be some buggy tree that you know? What is the easiest way to fix this? I don´t want to remove all the trees, you understand.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 22-03-2018, 18:03:09
There are definitely some buggy trees that crash the game or even editor.  Usually it happens when you use them as overgrowth.  I guess it can happen the other way too.  What trees are you using?

Sometimes with vegetation in staticobjects.con there is the line:  Object.isOvergrowth 1
You can delete that or add it if it's not there and see if it fixes the crash.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 24-03-2018, 11:03:38
Alright I found the damn buggy tree... took it out already, thanks for the info!

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzgVQ.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzKEK.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzTQw.jpg)

3rd sector WIP:

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmAAGG.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzuM6.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmA5J3.jpg)

(http://i2.tinypic.com/v8hgrp.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmAg3t.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2018, 13:03:19
Who needs creativity when you can just copy photos...

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdGoPml.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdGj74l.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdGouCp.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 26-03-2018, 14:03:26
Looking pretty good...  I take the building on the right is accessible? It would make a fair strong point to KO the Tiger with a captured Panzerfaust. Another thing - do you have extremely slow, hand cranked traverse on the Tiger's turret or is it power assisted?

And have you thought of scaling down some of the buildings, because in the screenshots they look yooge?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 26-03-2018, 16:03:15
This is a map project.  I don't think he has the ability to make new buildings or new Tigers
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2018, 16:03:43
You mean the red building? I initially placed a half-destroyed one for infantry to fight for but the red one looks closer to the one in the real photo. The tiger will be immobile and could have a slower moving turret, I bet that´s not hard to do.

What huge buildings are you talking about? The appartments on the right of the Tiger screenshot? I made them extra tall on purpose, like in the real photo. 5 storey to be precise.

Bare in mind I just try to copy some aspects of the photos just for fun, no real intention of making 1:1 replicas.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2018, 16:03:44
What would be the most correct spawnable russian anti-tank kit here? I´m not fond of spawnable panzerfausts like in Seelow but if it´s historically accurate then I´ll take it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 26-03-2018, 16:03:12
n/m
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 26-03-2018, 18:03:57
What would be the most correct spawnable russian anti-tank kit here? I´m not fond of spawnable panzerfausts like in Seelow but if it´s historically accurate then I´ll take it.
It is. Russians captured shit tons of panzerfausts and used them themelves untill the end of the war.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 28-03-2018, 07:03:10
nvm, just copying python scripts from seelow
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 28-03-2018, 10:03:03
How do you set the out of bounds but just for 1 team? In this case, I don´t want the germans to enter the russian mainbase and viceversa.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-03-2018, 10:03:09
You make an oob just for the Germans and leave out the russian mainbase. You can set teams in the tweak bar.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-03-2018, 08:03:12
Thanks!

I got a minor question. When I manually write down the pickup kits in the .con file they show up in-game just fine. But when I work in the editor and then I save objects the pickup kits go blank again in the .con file. What´s the best solution for this?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-03-2018, 10:03:21
Two more:

1. I placed a nebelwerfer spawner. In the editor all the buildings around it are lit bright. After doing the lightmaps the light on the buildings remained in-game. Is it a known bug? If that´s the case, next time I will just remove the nebel spawner before creating the lightmaps.

2. I worked (due to my ignorance at the time) with the editor´s default layer. This caused that the 16, 32 and 64 player layers were generated. So now I created from the editor a 64 layer identical to default layer and I disabled the default layer. The problem is, all 16, 32 and 64 versions keep appearing in the game´s menu. How do I remove the 16 and 32 options?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 31-03-2018, 16:03:58
You need to generate a lightmap atlas.  That's what the game uses, not the individual lightmap object files.

The 64, 32, and 16 you see in the menu is from the .desc file in the info folder.  You have to edit that.  Just delete the lines that refer to them.  Maybe there is a way to do that in the editor.  I am not sure.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-03-2018, 19:03:38
AFAIK the editor creates the atlas right after finishing the lightmaps. At least that´s what the debugger says, but I´ll look further into it.

Alright, I will fix that .desc file, I found those lines. Thank you!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 31-03-2018, 22:03:37
No,
There is a "generate atlas lightmaps" option under compile/lightmaps.  It gives you some choice about size and dxt compression(I use default), then it asks to look for obsolete lightmaps.    If you didn't do that, you don't have it.  Those atlas images are the only ones that get packed into the map.  The individuals ones are just used by the editor.

At some point you need to start getting familiar with the files and checking that the editor did the right thing and that the packing script worked as well.  The editor is notorious for screwing up and not saving correctly, etc.

~edit:  I checked your map in game.  Most everything is lightmapped.  I see a few missing on buildings I've never seen before.  You probably don't have the samples for those or for some reason they didn't get added to the atlas.  At this point you can try to fix that and lightmap them idividually, then "generate atlas lightmaps" when done.  You don't have to lightmap everything again.  I'm not sure what problem you are having with the nebelwerfer.  Those player controlled objects don't take lightmaps or leave affect the lightmaps of other things.  They have dynamic shadows in game.  It should break a lightmap but wont help make one either.   Otherwise it's looking pretty good.  You can fix those missing lightmaps later.

If you don't see any lightmaps in gmae, it's because your graphics settings are too low.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-04-2018, 01:04:32
For some reason my bf2editor seems to generate lightmap atlas right after generating the lightmap.

There are buildings and other CMP objects that lack lightmap samples or either have faulty ones. I´ll just replace them with other buildings, I don´t have time to fix unfinished models.

About the nebel, it does affect the lightmapping. I don´t care to understand why. I will just remove it before making the final lightmap. When it´s done I´ll add back again the nebel, hoping that will fix the problem.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 03-04-2018, 02:04:08
It's normal that the atlas is created automatically after lightmapping.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-04-2018, 04:04:13
How do you port a static from bf 1942?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 08-04-2018, 02:04:57
Get 3dsmax7 and the bf42 tools. Resave. Open in a newer version of 3dsmax (used to be 9, but the newer tools work with later versions aswell). After that it's some UV-rearranging and other stuff of course.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-04-2018, 05:04:50
Dang... too much time invested for little reward. Thanks, maybe I can find other statics in other BF2 mods that I could use, I guess that would require much less work since it´s the same game.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 20-04-2018, 02:04:17
Hello and welcome back to another question by Blander.

1. Soldiers glow in the map, I heard it has something to do with Hemimaps but I know nothing about Hemimaps. Help please?

2. Loading music. I couldn´t figure how to create correctly the .ogg file. How do I do it?

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 20-04-2018, 02:04:10
1. generate groundhemi   I think it is under compile below generate lightmaps, etc.

2. you need BF soundtools to get the right .ogg that works with Bf2.  It needs to be in the correct wave for to do that.  Look it up and have fun or just give me your music file and I will do it.  Contact me at CMP forum or in Discord.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 20-04-2018, 04:04:50
There is a batch file under tools that you just drag music onto. It will convert it into the right ogg-format.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: SgtAlex on 20-04-2018, 04:04:44
About the Nebel thing, I noticed the same thing with Katyusha, it acted like a light source and lighted all the buildings close to it, no need to lightmap, can be seen on editor, I supposed that kind of vehicles have actually a small light source that is activated when a rocket is fired, and editor recognise it and draw it as a light.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 20-04-2018, 11:04:48
Exactly. Dont lightmap with the gameplay layers on.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-04-2018, 17:04:13
I generated groundhemi. Glow is gone but vehicles look too dark now. How do I correct that?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 26-04-2018, 18:04:33
Well, you could lighten it, in GIMP or PS.
BTW, why don't you join Discord?  You would get quick answers to these basic questions.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-04-2018, 22:04:45
Alright, will do that in the near future.

The answer is that lately I haven´t had a lot of time for mapping. I actually spent my time watching documentaries and pictures to recreate the correct feel. I hope to have more time to finish the map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 26-04-2018, 23:04:13
I guess another thing you could do is temporarily change your lighting settings then generate the ground hemi.  You could use the "Day" preset.  Just don't save lighting settings when you are done.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 27-04-2018, 01:04:34
Ah that´s a neat idea. I will implement it and see what happens. Thanks!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-05-2018, 09:05:10
I haven´t had much time lately due to work... damn mapping takes time. Here goes some progress:

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 09-05-2018, 12:05:54
Looking good blander. The harsh spring sun is nice and realistic touch.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-05-2018, 13:05:30
All the new statics have not been lightmapped yet, that´s why they look like that.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 09-05-2018, 15:05:36
Well don't take me wrong, it looks pretty good   :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-05-2018, 14:05:32
Hello!

This is my goal: to make a Tiger I not able to move.

I will figure it out eventually but maybe if you can help me I can do it quicker.

1) Do I have to make a new object and name it something like "Static Tiger" and then add it to the map folder or is it possible to override a normal Tiger and just change its values for this specific map?

2) Is there a line in the code that I have to change to make the tank non-movable or is it more complicated?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: hitm4k3r on 19-05-2018, 19:05:38
In theory you only have do disable the driver seat of the vehicle pretty similar to how you disable the different seats for the non usable vehicles on objective maps. But keep in mind that you won't be able to have the same asset with driver and without a driver position on the same layer. I you want to have a static and a non static version on the same layer you will have to clone the tank obviously.

How you disable the seats/enterable positions is something that you can check out on allready existent objective maps in the mod ;)

If you need further assistence then let me know. Would check it out myself, but pretty low on time right now  ;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 19-05-2018, 21:05:41
Try something like this in tmp.con

Objecttemplate.activesafe PlayerControlObject Tiger(whatevernameithas)
Objecttemplate.activesafe Engine Tiger_Engine(whatevertheengineiscalled) (find out in the .tweak file of the tiger)
ObjectTemplate.setTorque 0
ObjectTemplate.setDifferential 0
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 20-05-2018, 14:05:59
Stubb's method works.  I tested it with:

Objecttemplate.activesafe PlayerControlObject tiger_late_132
Objecttemplate.activesafe Engine tiger_late_132_aaMotor
ObjectTemplate.setTorque 0
ObjectTemplate.setDifferential 0

at the bottom of the tmp.con.
You can still use the turret, which I assume is what you want.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 21-05-2018, 04:05:52
Awesome!

Now it just needs to be silent since the motor sounds still work.

Next step: the Pantherturm.

What would be the easiest and fastest way to make it? I´m thinking maybe I could immobilize a Panther, the same way the Tiger is. Then I could just bury it and enable Holdobject from the editor. The problem is that in the editor you cannot bury a tank, or at least it doesn´t go under ground visually.

I guess the hard way would be to strip off the whole hull bundle from the Panther, just leaving the turret. What do you recommend?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 21-05-2018, 10:05:06
The best way would be to re-export the thing with only the turret. Like seen on Omaha with the french turret.
It's perhaps possible to do some hacks other ways, but the above one would be the preferred way for sure.
Perhaps i can help with this later, but for testing just stick some static AT gun or something there for now. Or the french turret.

For the tiger, perhaps try to add some more lines from the engine into tmp.con, like maxspeed and such to 0 and see if that will get rid of the sounds.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Robbanswe48 on 29-05-2018, 20:05:38
If I can come with any suggestions:  :-*

Germans have class with including

- maybe shotgun (limited) Luftwaffen-Drilling M30
- Volkssturmgewehr 45
- Stg 44 (limited)

Soviets have class with

- STV 40

other than that it is really nice that folks are doing EF city maps, I want to make Breslau 45 or Warsaw 45 (when I have time and energy).

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 29-05-2018, 20:05:49
Why the SVT40?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Robbanswe48 on 29-05-2018, 21:05:27
Why the SVT40?

Why not? I thinking the germans will have best weapon they could get. Which mean the soviets should have pretty good weapons too. 400.000 G43's was produced in WW2 so why should SVT 40 be so rare? SVT 40 was produced in 1.400.000 during WW2. (source: wikipedia)

Overall the SVT 40 should be appearring more.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 29-05-2018, 22:05:47
But not in 1945. The SVT40 was mostly used in 1941 and 1942, after that is became progressively more rare. Instead they went with the PPsh41 / Mosin Nagant combo.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: SgtAlex on 30-05-2018, 14:05:41
Awesome!

Now it just needs to be silent since the motor sounds still work.

Next step: the Pantherturm.

What would be the easiest and fastest way to make it? I´m thinking maybe I could immobilize a Panther, the same way the Tiger is. Then I could just bury it and enable Holdobject from the editor. The problem is that in the editor you cannot bury a tank, or at least it doesn´t go under ground visually.

I guess the hard way would be to strip off the whole hull bundle from the Panther, just leaving the turret. What do you recommend?

About this, I think you could do the same as you did with the Tiger, just make a hole in the ground with the terrain editor, big enough to fit the Panther and as deep as its chassis height, leaving the turret out of the hole, then place some statics around the turret to hide the hole and the tank chasis, can be done with sandbags for example.
Finally, tweak it as you did with the Tiger to disable engine.

(https://orig00.deviantart.net/11e1/f/2011/342/5/4/02_panther_ostwallturm_by_wolfenkrieger-d4ii4ze.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 30-05-2018, 17:05:02
*Ahem* if you want to keep this realistic, turn off "power-assisted" turret traverse (the rotation speed was dependent on the engine RPM) - in both the Tiger and the Pantherturm.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 30-05-2018, 22:05:06
Robbanswe48:

Interesting choice for the music, I had this one in mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrVjtqx4MEc&index=45&list=PLbnRRNfFcoWdHL5wYorCswKRT4UtpUfh-

Volksturm and StG-44 will be included, dont´t think so about the SVT-40.

SgtAlex:

I thought about that solution but it just wouldn´t look good enough. Besides if I use objects to cover the Panther´s hull the colmeshes would collide causing trouble, most likely.

nysä:

Yes, I have it in mind!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-06-2018, 05:06:25
I just realised what a problem it can be to include artillery in an urban map. If someone spots for artillery with binoculars, the arty gunner will have a floating camera over the target. Problem is, the target could be close to an "empty" part of the map, which is not intended to be visible for the players.

I thought of 2 solutions for this:

1. Modify the spotter´s "floating" camera height. If I can get it low enough to avoid out of bounds areas to be seen by the arty gunner, that would solve the problem.

2. Get rid of arty.

Any oppinions?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 05-06-2018, 09:06:54
I don't really get what the problem is. Shooting off map can be avoided by checking the map as arty gunner. Do you mean spotting a high target next to an ABC line to circumvent the "no spot" dome on it?

1. The arty camera is directly connected to the target that the spotter marked. If that target is a high church tower, it will be marked high. Skilled spotters can use that knowledge by putting "high" targets for mortars and "low" ones for howitzers for maximum efficiency. I doubt that making it of fixed height would solve a lot of problems but it would definitely cause a lot of unnecessary ones like a lot of unusable spots and way less flexibility.

2. I like arty, as annoying as it can be on the receiving end. It's one of the last weapons that require a minimum of teamwork and communication in FH2 and I'd rather have it in, especially to deal with AT guns and the likes.

3. If you mean the ABC line abuse, a "dome" around the ABC line like PR has it could be an answer to that. To my knowledge, artillery and even airplane weaponry cannot pass through it if you're high enough but it won't stop the plane to fly through it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 05-06-2018, 14:06:42
I don't really get what the problem is.
He doesn't want the arty guy to see the edge of the map (usually it looks like something fluorescent green in my experience, it's very ugly).

@blander: best solution is not to use the map edges at all, make OOB at the edges and put the playable area far enough from the edges so that arty guys can't see it anymore. Build statics in the OOB anyway, so it doesn't look like the map "ends" where the OOB starts: this will also prevent arty guys from seeing anything weird when a scout misspots something.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 05-06-2018, 21:06:14
Oh okay, I never saw it except for back when I tried making maps for BF2 :P Seems like a minor annoyance, maybe getting rid of arty completely because of it is a bit harsh ;D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 06-06-2018, 04:06:40
The problem is not the map edge, it´s the OOB edge. If I had to cover all those with more statics to make them look "decent" from an arty gunner´s view then I would have to load the map with a TON more buildings, leading to excessive lag.

I guess I will have to test it. I will spot next to the OOBs on different areas of the map and see how the target looks from an arty asset. If testing suggests I will need to add 200 (my rough estimate) more statics then I will just get rid of arty.

Arty might just break gameplay after all, I think there is a reason for not having any arty asset in Battle of Brest for example. It´s a pity not to have any arty in Berlin because it was heavily used by the russians to destroy well-defended buildings.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Oberst on 06-06-2018, 15:06:41
Compare to Brest for instance. Mortar should still be available there.

From the art point of view it is important, that even from an infantry perspective the map not suddenly ends behind the next corner. Which may also require a few OOB buildings. This kills immersion.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 06-06-2018, 17:06:28
Look at Brest's OOB as that's the best way to do it while minimizing static use. It also has a mortar and I never see the OOB area with it. tbh I care less about what the arty gunner sees as it's more important that the other 99 players don't see the outside of the map.

If you can screenshot a problem area, maybe we can come up with more creative solutions.

tbh, arty on urban maps can be hell. At most you'd want to give it a mortar. You can give the Russians the 120mm, that packs plenty of punch. :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 06-06-2018, 17:06:29
Oh Brest has a mortar? Sorry, I didn´t notice that. But still, I thought about it thoroughly. I don´t want the gameplay to be broken. I think the first version will have no artillery. If balance adjustments are required after testing in a full server then we could try adding a mortar or some rocket launchers.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 06-06-2018, 19:06:40
I'm pretty sure only mortars would work on that map.  The trajectory of the other arty would be useless with all those building.  You can still use the Wespe and SU 152 as point and shoot arty.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 07-06-2018, 08:06:01
Mortars on Brest can be highly devastating for sure, especially on highly populated servers. Then again on a map with so much bottlenecks it would be unwise to remove it completely because it can be already tough enough to break through a line of several refilling squads. I think limiting it to one mortar is good because that limits the terror and also still gives the defenders a bit of room to create defences.

GeoPat is right, howitzers and Katyushas will only lead to mass TK because your shells land anywhere but where you aimed at, leading to frustration of the users and the random victims. Some of the CMP maps suffer from this issue.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 07-06-2018, 20:06:12
The problem is not the map edge, it´s the OOB edge.
OK, that's a bit less of a problem then: just paint terrain there, don't place any statics if not necessary for the vew of the other 99 players. That way the arty gunner will just know that it is a useless spot he is looking at because he doesn't see the city anymore. I don't think you will get many complaints about that, it is actually helpful :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-06-2018, 11:06:52
U-Bahn WIP

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-06-2018, 14:06:54
Cool, is it just for show or can you also go and fight underground?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-06-2018, 17:06:43
I thought of it. I also thought about an underground bunker but in the end it wouldn´t work as a flag to fight for. 40 players in such a constrained space wouldn´t be fun so it´s just for the looks. Who knows, maybe in a future version (balance adjustments will be needed for sure) I could replace one of the flags with an underground layout.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-06-2018, 17:06:39
OK, fair enough. I think it could work, just look at the airfield building on Sidi Rezegh, it has an underground flagzone as well. But I can imagine that it brings several problems with it if you expand underground :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 13-06-2018, 11:06:58
howitzers and Katyushas will only lead to mass TK because your shells land anywhere but where you aimed at, leading to frustration of the users and the random victims. Some of the CMP maps suffer from this issue.

On the other hand, isn't this quite realistic? Even mainstream historians such as Anthony Beevor estimate that possibly as many as 40% of Russian casualties were caused by their own artillery fire.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 14-06-2018, 08:06:36
Heh, yes, it might be but it will not be fun in any way and people will get kicked from the server because of it. Besides, most of the FH gameplay is far from realistic but feels more like arcade with a hardcore damage model which makes it both unique and fun or frustrating; depends on the day, really ;D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-07-2018, 08:07:14
How do you draw tank tracks on the ground? Is it with the road tool? I don´t know how to use that.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-07-2018, 10:07:55

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 16-07-2018, 13:07:55
Looking good,I'm getting the imprtession that this map is HUGE. Can't wait to test it out :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 16-07-2018, 14:07:14
Sweet! How's the progress with the Pantherturm?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 16-07-2018, 15:07:15
tracks is with a road tool yea. you just need to find the right mesh
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 16-07-2018, 17:07:52
Texture load on this map is going to be ridiculous.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-07-2018, 19:07:09
It became much bigger than I expected, I hope that contributes for a new gameplay feel.

I have not worked on the Pantherturm yet. I started to realise how big the map is when I started to add detail. It takes a lot longer than I thought.

I´ll try to figure out the road tool and if I fail I will ask for help, thanks!

The map doesn´t take too much to load right now. Will that change when I paint all the OOBs? Or do the lightmaps make the loading longer?

To be realistic I guess I will be finishing this map by Christmass.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 16-07-2018, 21:07:00
If you really think it's too big, then don't be afraid to cut parts out. You don't have to delete those, just don't include them in the gameplay area. This will give you the opportunity to lower the texture load, add more closed instead of open buildings in those areas and thus improve the performance.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-07-2018, 01:07:08
When I was working on one of the last flags, specially on the underground bunker which was going to be a spawn point, the editor crashed and I lost all the work of the day. I´m still pissed about it so I might go ahead and just remove all that sector, including the flag.

So yeah, I will probably go with your suggestion Slayer. You just saved me like an extra month of work hehe.

But still, it is a big map. I didn´t want it to be a new Battle of Brest. There are plenty tanks and lots of space for tactics and flanking, not a straight forward meat grinder like Ramelle.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 17-07-2018, 02:07:01
You definitely want to make sure you optimize your map as best you can. Some things to look out for off the top of my head;

Texture Load: make sure not to load too many or necessary textures. For example, if you have a 'Normandy' camouflaged panther, don't also use the 'Autumn' camouflaged panther. This makes the game load 2 textures for the same tank and eats memory. Same goes for other things like Pak40s, 88s cars, trucks halftracks w/e.

Open Buildings: make sure not to use too many of them. They eat a lot of memory and require more power to render since they have more polygons and textures to load. Stick to placing open buildings in important places like flag zones or if you need a player to move through them to get to a certain area etc... leave the rest of the areas as closed buildings.

Not to mention that you need to fill them with furniture etc... to make them look good, which adds to the static count.

Unique Objects & Static Objects: Afaik it's good practice to keep you object count low. In the Level Editor, if you look on the bottom bar, there should be a "Level Info" button that will show you specific things about your map. Unique objects are something to keep an eye on since each object typically loads a new texture sheet which loads more memory etc... also the total static object count. I think some of the higher counts I've seen are ~6000 static objects in total. Just good to keep an eye on.

View Distance: Obviously with a city map, you shouldn't need a gigantic view distance. I think a lower view distance will help keep people's frame up because the map doesn't need to render the objects it doesn't see etc...

Just things to keep in mind :) more experienced mappers could have other tips.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-07-2018, 04:07:51
Interesting tips!

Right now there are 5605 static objects. I plan on adding more little objects, so in return i will make the playable area smaller and thus delete many buildings.

About the Panther example, I plan on having 2 different Panther textures, one of them being new (if I have enough time to make it). Same goes for other vehicles. I also want to clone some buildings to have 2 different textures for the same building on the same map. Keep in mind this map is (I think) the biggest city map made for FH2 and it´s hard to make sectors look different since there is a limited number of buildings to choose from.

Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.

There are long streets and lots of tanks and AT guns on the map. I tryied to keep the view distance at a point were PC performance is not crushed and tanks keep a high value.

All kinds of tips and suggestions are welcome, lets all make this a great new map!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 17-07-2018, 19:07:44
About the Panther example, I plan on having 2 different Panther textures, one of them being new (if I have enough time to make it). Same goes for other vehicles.

Curious, what type of texture you are planning to make?
This map could really use a late (standardized) factory camouflages on some of the vehicles, like a generic MAN factory cam on the Panther Ausf G or Alkett factory camo on the StuG III Ausf G (if there is one).
Dot and disc camos were mostly experimental, used only for a brief production period only.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 17-07-2018, 20:07:54
Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.
Try to avoid this as much as possible, because even if you close it off, the textures of the interior will be loaded anyway.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-07-2018, 20:07:32
Pz.Kpfw. V Panther Ausf. G, coded “333”, of 5th Panzer Battalion, 25th Panzer Grenadier Division; area east of Berlin, April 1945. [Painted by Arkadiusz Wróbel]

(http://www.kagero.pl/images/nicewatermark/occnvai23901-pz-kpfw-v-panthercati101iti705limitstart2-27_tc01shopkager8.jpg)

I plan on having a KT, 2 Panthers and 1 Jagdpanzer IV L/70 on the map. If you have any interesting pictures with cammo patterns suited for Berlin please let me know. I also want to change the markings on soviet tanks, that´s much easier to do.

Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.
Try to avoid this as much as possible, because even if you close it off, the textures of the interior will be loaded anyway.

Yesterday I removed lots of buildings to reduce the gameplay area. If that´s not enough then I will remove more open buildings. Is there a way to know if the CPU usage is correct for the map?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 17-07-2018, 21:07:21
Just some advice from my experience of being a tester and hearing mappers talk about the problems they've faced.

I plan on having 2 different Panther textures, one of them being new (if I have enough time to make it). Same goes for other vehicles.

I would just keep it to one for now. You can use a placeholder (like the Normandy one or w/e) and reskin that one with the new texture after the map is complete. IF you have the space after the map is finished you can add a 2nd panther texture. Changing the types of vehicles is always relatively easy to do even after the map is complete.

It's really cool for tanks to have slightly different camos and vehicle numbers like irl. But tbh, people don't really notice that stuff in the heat of battle. Overall the memory that is saves is more beneficial than the 'aesthetic' factor.

Quote
I also want to clone some buildings to have 2 different textures for the same building on the same map. Keep in mind this map is (I think) the biggest city map made for FH2 and it´s hard to make sectors look different since there is a limited number of buildings to choose from.

Same advice as above. It's best right now to keep the building's textures the same so you don't load too many at once. IF you have memory left over after the map is finished and the areas still look too repetitive, then I'd look into re-skinning it.

Lots of games re-use assets throughout a map to save memory. The trick is spreading out the similar buildings so the player doesn't encounter them in the same view. The important places are flag areas where players will generally spend most of their time. That's where you can utilize the unique statics so no two flag zones look the same.

If you have two areas with the same set of buildings in them. I would try a different approach of making the details different first; i.e. re-ordering the buildings so they're not in the same order. Making the street scene different (different debris in the road, lay out the cover differently etc...) so the player can't automatically tell that the same buildings are used.

It's definitely one of the tougher parts of urban mapping, but if you show some problem areas. We could certainly take a look and make some suggestions. :)

Quote
Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.

Like Slayer said, I would look for other statics to fill that area. If you simply close off an open building, the textures inside that building will still be loaded and the lightmaps will still be generated for an area that a player can't access. If you want to go really hardcore, you could make a closed version of that static after the map is done. But that seems unnecessary, since most times you can just find other statics to take it's place.

Panther texture is nice. 8) In my experience I would just worry about vehicle textures last. If the map is well optimized and has good gameplay, someone maybe able to save you the trouble of re-skinning a tank from scratch. Overall, you want to have a strong map that plays well and runs well on everyone's computer so it can be played for many years to come. :D

EDIT:
Also, pretty sure Toddel made the Panther texture in a clever way so that it can have two different sets of turret numbers on the same map. Best to save that till the end.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 18-07-2018, 06:07:40
I plan on having a KT, 2 Panthers and 1 Jagdpanzer IV L/70 on the map. If you have any interesting pictures with cammo patterns suited for Berlin please let me know.

Panthers fighting in the Berlin area were mainly with MAN factory camo, but naturally other variants existed as well (few Ausf Ds were also there):

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2z5t5yf.jpg)

For more accurate tones: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/f8/ea/b6f8ea46cae2be5e95a0ebc726d0ff66.jpg

Panzer IV/70 photographed in Berlin had fairly soft edged camo, similar to this (w. dominant olive green):
(http://i68.tinypic.com/347aepx.jpg)

Overall, I would suggest dominant dark brown and olive green with some "dark yellow" stripes.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 18-07-2018, 07:07:39
Alright, I´ve taken all tips into consideration.

I´ve shrinken the gameplay area once again and moved the flags closer together. I also replaced lots of open buildings with closed variants and removed excessive small objects that are too far from flagzones.

I´d really like to have the map out when the CMP maps get updated and back into play. In that case I will have to skip all the reskining work for the time being. It could be done in a future patch though, along with other fixes.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-08-2018, 09:08:59
Does any vehicle or gun in FH2 have a sound that could fit for the manually-traversed turrets from the Pantherturm and Tiger? Or should it be completely silent?

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 02-08-2018, 12:08:14
Does any vehicle or gun in FH2 have a sound that could fit for the manually-traversed turrets from the Pantherturm and Tiger? Or should it be completely silent?
Panzer III, dunno if all models, but at least some of them definitely have the hand cranked manually traversed turrets.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 02-08-2018, 12:08:32
Edit: like jan_kurator already pointed out, Pz III seems to have rather decent manual traverse sound f/x.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-08-2018, 06:08:26
I removed the engine sounds and corrected the turret traverse speed and sound.

I failed though to make the whole tank behave properly. Even though I managed to sink it underground, the whole tank will pop up on ground level for a second after being shaked by a shot or even a grenade exploding close to it, after that the tank will sink back to it´s original position.

I tried to fix that but I failed. Besides I don´t think it´s possible to remove things like the top MG, hull MG and passenger seats without having to create a whole new player controlled object, which I can´t do because I lack the knowledge and it would take me too much time to learn.

Unless someone can give me a hint on coding, I plan on having a static panther instead, just like the Tiger. I would not be able to sink it under the ground like I did in the previous screenshot though I could protect it with some rubble. It would not look as cool (and new) as a Pantherturm though I guess.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 04-08-2018, 10:08:43
I wouldn't worry about it. There were actually few dug in Panthers in Berlin area - basically gutted out Panthers, originally sent back for factory overhaul or rebuild.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/4uuo1s.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/29/f8/2b29f820bc0c4de01348bc43d5221728.jpg)

Regarding removing the cupola MG, maybe you could try panther_g_ard_alt or panthera_late_alt ??

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 04-08-2018, 17:08:15
For what you are trying to do Blander, it is best to make a "clone".  Then you can change just about everything you want.  I did that for the campaign.  It's pretty easy.

You just give a new name to the .con, tweak, and bundlemesh.  Edit the con and tweak "replace all" the old name with the new name.  Find everywhere it says collisionmesh in the con and tweak and give it the old name there(because you don't rename the collisionmesh).

Then try to figure out all the values to change or delete.  Maybe look at the that turret gun on Omaha.  Get rid of every thing it doesn't have.

The best thing about a clone is that you can have the real tank and your clone on the same map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-08-2018, 19:08:15
I tried to clone it but it seems the collisionmesh of the hull behaves buggy when dug in. I was not able to remove it. I checked the turret gun on Omaha but it´s different from the real tank´s geometry, the mesh file is different. I basically tried to strip off the hull entirely but I failed.

Long story short, I don´t want to waste more time on this so I´ll go for this setup, which is much easier to achieve:

(http://i63.tinypic.com/4uuo1s.jpg)

You are right nysä, panthera_late_alt has no cupola MG, I´ll use that one.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 06-08-2018, 11:08:08
I´ve been trying to figure out how to create .ogg files for the map but I cannot follow instructions because tutorials are very old with outdates links. Where can I find all the sound tools and info I need?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-08-2018, 09:08:50
The total object count went up to 6300 so I shrunk the gameplay area once again to cut off the object count. My goal is to finish the map under 6000 objects. Added a new flag for less walking and more action (the map is still big). Also redid all russian tank spawns so they gradually spawn closer to the frontline, eliminating the previous spawners, like it was done in Ogledow.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Wilhelm on 19-08-2018, 15:08:32
Looking good!  ;D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 19-08-2018, 15:08:06
Screens are looking nice. The real bread and butter is when you show the overview minimap/ layout.

I'm glad you're still working on this and that it's coming along! :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 19-08-2018, 15:08:56

Im still hoping at some point you would consider porting over the Reichstag static from FHSW map "Fall Of Berlin" to use in your map as a centerpiece.

I envision a push map starting with flags on the exterior of Berlin, ending at the Reichstag........one can dream.

Keep up the good work soldier!
8)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Seth_Soldier on 19-08-2018, 16:08:11
It looks good.
Remember to test gameplay too.

About ambiance, imo you should go for a dark and high smoke map but not the night. More like a burning city feeling.
Something like cod waw berlin and FH1 berlin streets
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 19-08-2018, 17:08:11
Looking good indeed! I agree with Seth about the atmosphere, it looks a bit too bright still, but maybe that also has to do with lightmapping. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 19-08-2018, 21:08:38
Oh wow, I didn't see the minimap before :). Just some more comments;

There are some parts that seem very narrow for 100 players (like the approaches to Ruins/ Yard & Boulevard). They might not be, but just keep in mind that you don't want to create too many hardcore bottlenecks. The result is something like Brest where American's can't push past the mob of defenders and it ends up as Op Metro. I count 3 main streets to the Yard/ Ruins sector but as long as the blocks in between have many places to cross between each road/ even push the flags it should be ok. :)

As long as there's multiple routes to attack a flag so player density isn't too high.

I'm not sure how the sectors work (I'm counting 5 or 6?) but it looks like they have nice progression and each sector is distinct and separate on the minimap. I wouldn't add any more sectors as this seems like enough.

Curious to see how it plays! :D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 21-08-2018, 12:08:02
I would have liked to create a more ruined city but there's a lack of destroyed statics. I placed as many as I could without being too repetitive.

The lightmap will be created when I finish adding small objects. I saved the lightmap settings I liked after days of testing, it is not nearly as dark and grim as the FH1 version, that one seemed really exagerated imo.

I checked the FHSW map and it was made in 1:1 scale apparently. That would make it impossible to combine the city's outskirts and the Reichstag obviously. Even if I managed to impot the Reichstag in the future I would save it for a 1:1 scaled map like FHSW, even though the surrounding statics would not look appropiate and if I am not mistaken the Reichstag model is closed, it has no interior to fight for.

Any changes are welcome though, even if they are major, as long as they enrich the map since I guess no one else will ever make another Berlin map for this mod (I hope I'm wrong).

1. Ruins / Yard

It was briefely tested with about 12 players, I like how it did. That is all the map testing I got and will ever get, at least from CMP. The 3 streets are connected. I added a fourth one and then I removed it. Russians start off with 4 tanks, that should be enough to break through eventually. Germans only have a pair of static AT guns.

2. Hospital / Supply Dump

Approaches are very open. Germans have 3 static guns and 2  tanks. Russians get 7 tanks.

3. Boulevard

Recently added to link up with the next sector. It should mainly serve as a spawn point for the russians. It's very open and easy to take with superior tank numbers.

4. Square / Altona

Wide, long and open streets. Little cover, long range engagements. Tank dominance. 4 german tanks along with 2 immobilized used as pillboxes. Russians get 9 tanks. I expect this sector to be the defining one, it's hard to capture.

5. Last flags

Short range engagements. Even though bloody, I expect the russians to end it quickly because they are close to eachother and close to Altona. In short, a very action packed ending, no more than 5 mins.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 21-08-2018, 18:08:32
Well I'm glad someone's attempting one. :) I know there's not a lot of statics to choose from, but that could always be changed by some eager modelers or texture work. All that's important right now is that it plays well imo, the aesthetic stuff could come later.

All those tanks seem like a lot for urban combat, since there's only a few routes for them to move. Hopefully it won't create too much explosive spam. That seems to be the biggest issue with urban maps.

It's nice that you got to test it with CMP, that's huge. it would be nice to test it on a pub server with proper player amounts. Maybe when the updated version of the CMP is complete, we could hold a few days of testing on it.

What do you plan on doing with the map in the future?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 22-08-2018, 01:08:02
There are a lot of tanks, yes. The soviets fielded lots of armor for this battle so I think it's fine. For example I hate to play Tobruk as allies because of the constant deaths to enemy artillery. But hey, if the real battle was like that then I respect it.

I carefully placed open buildings and cover for the german AT infantry to hide in. Besides, there are plenty AT guns, it's not like every soviet tank will be alive all the time through the whole map.

Right now I'd say 90% of the map is complete. Little things are missing like cables, ambient sounds, french sign textures need to be replaced, lightmap, combat area, etc.

My goal is to have the map incorporated into the CMP pool. Tournament usage has been taken out of the question because it's a straight forward push map.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-09-2018, 07:09:31

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 03-09-2018, 08:09:47
Looks quite good to me but I have a few observations to make: The rooms look a little empty at times and seem too orderly (There are a lot of 90° and 45° angles here) and I would assume that some of the places were left in a hurry - like that bar/restaurant e.g. or even if not, you would rarely see such perfection. That makeshift hospital nails that better in my opinion but you could maybe spice it up even more with the beds. I take it that you're conservative with the objects to keep the performance high?
Anyway, it's cool to see the WIPs :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 03-09-2018, 08:09:49
Looks promising! Another suggestion, the walls could use some random morale scribbles like "Berlin bleibt deutsch", as seen in the Seelow Heights. And perhaps some bicycles?

(https://berlinshots.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/sam_8914.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-09-2018, 08:09:08
I´m worried about performance. I don´t know the details about CPU usage limit and stuff like that. In general I try to copy the object saturation from other maps. I´d like to add a ton of details (and I had) but I chose to remove hundreds of objects to have 6000 max in total.

I am kind of measuring the performance with the FPS since my computer is old and it goes up and down considerably depending on the static objects´ saturation. FPS drop at the hospital area so I´m only adding what is 100% necessary.

What parameter should I take into consideration to know if the amount of statics I´m placing is within acceptable limits?

I´ll stuff up those rooms a bit more and give them a more chaotic feel.

I added a lot more smoke columns everywhere. Do they consume too much memory? Should I be careful with that or is it acceptable to have lots of smoke around all the map?

Quote
Looks promising! Another suggestion, the walls could use some random morale scribbles like "Berlin bleibt deutsch", as seen in the Seelow Heights. And perhaps some bicycles?

I used 2 or 3 from Seelow already and I plan on having at least 1 new one. I might ask for suggestions here when I get to that phase. I also gathered lots of signs from different maps to have them re-textured to "Friseur", "Lebensmittel-Geschäft", "Brauerei", "Apotheke", "Hotel-Pension" etc. The bar will have a Fanta ad.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 03-09-2018, 09:09:26
I used 2 or 3 from Seelow already and I plan on having at least 1 new one. I might ask for suggestions here when I get to that phase. I also gathered lots of signs from different maps to have them re-textured to "Friseur", "Lebensmittel-Geschäft", "Brauerei", "Apotheke", "Hotel-Pension" etc. The bar will have a Fanta ad.

Great. "Lieber tot als Sklave" was also another endkampf slogan, also found on Berlin Zoo Bunker
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 03-09-2018, 16:09:35
I´m worried about performance. I don´t know the details about CPU usage limit and stuff like that. In general I try to copy the object saturation from other maps. I´d like to add a ton of details (and I had) but I chose to remove hundreds of objects to have 6000 max in total.

I am kind of measuring the performance with the FPS since my computer is old and it goes up and down considerably depending on the static objects´ saturation. FPS drop at the hospital area so I´m only adding what is 100% necessary.

Measuring your own FPS is good. Also, I think you can alt tab with the map open and open task manager to see how much ram it uses. Around 2GB is the upper limit. (I think)

Quote
What parameter should I take into consideration to know if the amount of statics I´m placing is within acceptable limits?

Personally I’d crack open Seelow and try to keep static count around the same as that map.

Quote
I added a lot more smoke columns everywhere. Do they consume too much memory? Should I be careful with that or is it acceptable to have lots of smoke around all the map?

AFAIK smoke can cause FPS drops more than most things.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-10-2018, 05:10:09
The map is crashing at 14%.

I checked and double-checked the map crash percentages thread but I failed to find a solution.

I tried deleting gameplayobjects.con and staticobjects.con, among other things, but that didn´t fix it. In one of the ocations I had a memory error message, I don´t remember what it said exactly.

I really don´t know what else to try. I took a break from working on this map 15 days ago so now I don´t remember exactly what was the last thing I did to the map that could be causing this problem. I added a few more static objects, that´s for sure, but I think that wouldn´t be the reason of this crash.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 02-10-2018, 12:10:47
Probably overgrowth.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-10-2018, 20:10:45
It has no overgrowth, only static trees and undergrowth. How can I discard possibilities?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-10-2018, 08:10:26
Fixed. The secondary terrain was corrupted.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FiveStars on 25-10-2018, 15:10:40
Wonderful project! I don't really know the capabilities of your mapping, but if it turns out well enough, it could be in FH 2.55 or 2.6  ;D. A few pointers anyway: The FHSW Reichstag's is open AFAIK, and it would make a very good separate map, maybe even the fhurer bunker there could be incorporated. I would guess, although I may be wrong, there may be some devs who could lease a helping hand  ;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-10-2018, 02:10:37
The map will come out in the community map pack, not an official FH2 update. I´m relatively new to mapping so I don´t know how to port stuff from FHSW.

After the map is released I will work on a balance patch and I will try to finish some half-done statics to add more unique content for the map (there are a couple of previously unused buildings already). I´m delighted to have the new ISU-152 and ISU-122 available right in time before finishing the map, I will definately add them.

Since it´s the first map I make, I lost a lot of time figuring things out and re-doing and improving things over and over again. Right now I´m adressing minor aesthetic details, the gameplay work is complete.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 26-10-2018, 17:10:23
I´m delighted to have the new ISU-152 and ISU-122 available right in time before finishing the map, I will definately add them.
Don't. Just use the ISU-152 with the DShK (a proper variant for the Battle of Berlin) and avoid using too many vehicles of different types for no reason. Those affect map performance.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FiveStars on 26-10-2018, 18:10:59
Don't. Just use the ISU-152 with the DShK (a proper variant for the Battle of Berlin) and avoid using too many vehicles of different types for no reason. Those affect map performance.
I agree. Plus the DSHK ISU-152 version will be a perfect addition, both as an assault gun, and a heavy IFV
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 28-10-2018, 21:10:50
Wow  nice project. Where do you get time for this level of detail to do  :D :D And plus that old computer, I know how shit it can be to work with

Would like to see more pic, and some from sky to see how big it would be on end.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-10-2018, 09:10:13

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FiveStars on 31-10-2018, 10:10:39
I think Flippy or Jan said this, but it would be better to have the DSHK version of the ISU
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-10-2018, 10:10:26
Yeah, I didn´t really pay attention when I selected it. I´m hoping to finish placing statics soon so I can do the lightmap.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Knochenlutscher on 01-11-2018, 15:11:00
My grandpa was wounded in Seelow, then taken to Lazaret in Müncheberg.
End of April 1945 he received leave and should assign at new Service.
Which he didn't instead walked to Berlin by Foot.
Throwing away the new postings, he made his way to his parents flat
in Charlottenburg, right in time when Berlin was under Siege.
I know he went there via Straussberg and Pankow
through thin opened corridors. He slept 1 day at his Aunt in Pankow and continued his way
to Charlottenburg.
There where either ruins or in the intact houses 2 types of flats,
completely housed/closed flats or robbed out/opened.
At the beginning of WW2 Closed flats where of the inhabitants
flew outside Berlin and the remaining Neighbours quickly opened and emptied these
(robbery,vandalizing) in the late war era. My grandpa caught the neighbours in act doing so
at my great grandparents flat, who lived near Borgsdorf in their Gardenresidence.
He mocked away the neighbours and recollected every piece from the street, floor building
and out of the hands of the neighbours he could get. All familly values, Meißner Porcelaine,
was stolen. That was high life in wartime Berlin.

Apart from the battledamage/bombing etc., my grandpa told me, his Berlin was a trash dump,
litter everywhere. Only small areas kept buisilly clean, like the neighbourhouse at Kaminerstr.
where a 90 year old chap cleaned the yard in daily manner. The rest, nobody seemed to care,
maybe they ate the broomsticks or fired it at each other while stealing stuff...
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 01-11-2018, 20:11:27
That´s sad to hear. From the pictures I´ve seen the city was quite littered as you say. The problem is that I´m at the limit of static objects I can place. I´m not sure wether performance will be good. I´d like to release the map with 6000 statics. If it proves to be unstable I will have to remove statics up to the point where it becomes playable.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Knochenlutscher on 01-11-2018, 22:11:46
All good, I'm following your Map works with eager patience.
I like the effort you put through and how you think about
getting us some specialties, like the dugin tanks and barricades.
I'm sure it's worth it's stand.
Keep up the good job
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 02-11-2018, 11:11:23
If you ever got the time, I'd recommend doing little mashup on the Tiger I.
This would require some modelling & texturing skills, but basically what you need is an early chassis with a turret from the late production. The chassis from "DAK Tiger" would do great, if you have skills to remove the Feifel air filters + the non-standard mudguards, exhaust heat shields, headlights. This would actually represent very typical Tiger I in 1945, since the last 50+ were produced from recycled early chassis' with upgraded/rebuild turret...

The only unit that had few late production Tigers left (after January '45) was Panzer-Abteilung (Funklenk) 301, but their battles ended in Ruhr (sources: "Tigers in Combat" by W. Schneider and "Germany's Tiger Tanks: D.W. to Tiger I" by Jentz & Doyle)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-11-2018, 18:11:54
That´s interesting though way too complicated for my knowledge. The next thing I want to try is bringing back to life the old Pavlov´s house from FH1. It´s in the test folder from static objects. It´s missing the LODs. I´ll try to create those once the map is released. If I ever get to fix the building I will add it to the map, replacing other generic houses.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-11-2018, 10:11:25
Testing some textures

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Yakovlev on 04-11-2018, 00:11:17
Great effort man i wish you all the best with your project !!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 04-11-2018, 01:11:35
I think the Friseur looks OK, the others are waiting for some imporvement: the letters look pretty fake on the buildings. I know this is hard to get right, but as it is this is a bit of an mmersion killer, not in the least because of the font type you chose (esp Apotheke should be in different letters imo).
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 04-11-2018, 10:11:10
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/1023/10239444.jpg)(http://www.sampor.de/assets/images/alles-aus-papier/ansichtskarten/berlin/ak_kuchen_kaiser_01.jpg) (https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/konditorei-und-cafe-in-der-nrnberger-strasse-das-russische-john-picture-id542359113) (http://www.ansichtskarten-center.de/webshop/shop/ProdukteBilder/16824/AK_13411663_gr_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Tyler on 04-11-2018, 15:11:15
Screens are looking good!

Overall, I would suggest to add some sandbags,crates,barrels,etc in this area near to the Control Point.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 04-11-2018, 16:11:16
Have you tried a playtest with the CMP guys yet? Very curious to know how this plays on a pub server. :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-11-2018, 17:11:19
That was my first attempt. I accidentially deleted the alpha channel, that´s why some signs don´t blend properly. They have detail but it doesn´t show in the screenshots due to the lacking lightmap.

I´m loving those pictures, very helpful. I still got plenty signs to make.

Yes, I added more objects everywhere. Keep in mind I try to stay at the bare minimum for the first release.

We only tested it with around 15 people many months ago. I haven´t had another chance since then.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 04-11-2018, 17:11:55
think it could be ready for their next CMP pack? I'd like it to be polished before it's in the public rotation tbh, but I would like to try it
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 04-11-2018, 17:11:00
OK, so they will loook better when lightmaps are final, I guess.

Looking forward to play this, so when a playtest comes up, please post in here :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 04-11-2018, 21:11:55
Can say one suggestion, instead of Katyusa it would be cool to take M30 122mm and make it mobile . Then infantry can push it around for point blank arty support like in real life. I mean, there is already lot of tanks but thats just instead of Katyusa if you plan to put it.

Or it would be nice for Germans, as their artilery in city did last stand, to place one movable LeFh105 . That would be used to support defense as they dont have much tanks. Disable that look-from-air that arty usualy has so it can just fire at point blank direct fire. And make it from third sector avaible. Take code from Pak or some other movable gun. And as its slow, germans will need to place it clever and retreat when too close to enemy.

Just something I taught as I looked some videos of battle of berlin.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-11-2018, 23:11:07
It´s taking a lot more time than I expected. I doubt it will be ready in a month.

I removed all artillery. It just doesn´t fit the map. It would be different if buildings were destroyable. I did place a towable pak40 to make the defence a bit more dynamic.

Changes and improvements of course are welcome once the map is tested with the current assets.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 14-11-2018, 05:11:27
Almost ready to do the final lightmaps. Next step: textures.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 14-11-2018, 09:11:11
Really nice work with the street blocks, overall rubble.
Not sure if I remember wrong, but isn't there a industrial cabel reel in the static objects? Just a thought, since these were quite commonly seen laying around on the urban battlefields

Anyway, cannot wait until the map is ready and online.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 14-11-2018, 12:11:43
Yes, I used all the cable reel variants, in fact one shows in one of the screenshots. Not many are around though I´m at 6254 objects right now, a little over expected.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 14-11-2018, 12:11:49
How many different static types, ie. unique statics, are you at?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 14-11-2018, 20:11:30
First: Really nice and detailed map blander! Very good looking and I hope to see minimap soon.  ;)

Almost ready to do the final lightmaps. Next step: textures.

Second: Is that some magic code that made towable guns working????  :o
Or is that staged as towing?
Or is towing working less laggy if its driving over good terrain?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 15-11-2018, 00:11:57
Looking good so far.

Just wondering blander will the street layouts historically accurate or no?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-11-2018, 05:11:39
Static objects: 6254
Unique objects: 524
Mesh memory: 3547275 kb

I posted a minimap screen earlier. It hasn´t changed a lot since then, just cosmethics.

That towable PAK40 became available since the last patch if I remember correctly. It works fairly well on the map, maybe because it´s all flat, except for the rubble.

The street layouts are not historically accurate at all. I just made a mix of many reference pictures and tried to create different gameplay possibilities across the different sectors of the map. In short, many areas of the map are "based" on real pictures, the rest are completely fictional.

Copying a real place in a 1:1 scale would have been bad because:

1. Inappropiate statics
2. Limited gameplay possibilities
3. Lack of mapping skills
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: LuckyOne on 15-11-2018, 07:11:32

That towable PAK40 became available since the last patch if I remember correctly.

Wait, what? I thought the consensus was that it can't be done at all! :O

Anyway nice map, can't wait to see it finished!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 15-11-2018, 16:11:49
We don’t have towable Pak40s
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 15-11-2018, 16:11:03
524 unique objects is "a bit" rough.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-11-2018, 16:11:07
Well, the towable PAK works. Perhaps it´s CMP´s?

Unique objects number can be decreased, for sure. Total number of statics too. Lets see what the performance is like first.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 17-11-2018, 07:11:32
The towable pak is in FH2.  It's just not on a map maybe.

fh2\objects_vehicles_server.zip\Vehicles\Land\DE\sdkfz7\sdkfz7_pak40

I think there is a Bedford QLT with a 6 pdr in its bed too.  They've both been there for years.

IIRC they are less buggy than most CMP stuff but maybe too buggy for FH2 to actually put it on a map.
MAybe they were on Aberdeen or some other discontinued map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 17-11-2018, 15:11:26

The street layouts are not historically accurate at all. I just made a mix of many reference pictures and tried to create different gameplay possibilities across the different sectors of the map. In short, many areas of the map are "based" on real pictures, the rest are completely fictional.

Copying a real place in a 1:1 scale would have been bad because:

1. Inappropiate statics
2. Limited gameplay possibilities
3. Lack of mapping skills

Yeah i see what you mean. Due to the enormous size of the city of Berlin, i always envisioned a map based off a sector of Berlin, say "The Brandenburg Gate" area.

(https://venets.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/d9a7e-berlin2bat2bthe2bend2bof2bthe2bwar2bin2b19452b1.jpg)

However im sure nobody in ANY gaming community has ever made a static of the gate.

;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 24-11-2018, 04:11:48
I tried to lightmap on low quality. It worked on half of the objects and then crashed. I tried to resume the lightmapping but it crashes. These are the last debug lines before crashing:

D:\bf2editor\Code\BF2\RendDX9\TextureManager.cpp(471): Failed to create dx texture. Created from code. Invalid call
Creation parameters:
Width: 2
Height: 2
Depth: 1
Format: D3DFMT_DXT1
Miplevels: 0
Usage: 0
D:\bf2editor\Code\BF2\Geom\LightmapGeneration\MeshLightSampling.cpp(162): Failed to create conversion texture

How can I find the problem?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 25-11-2018, 10:11:01
We will probably have a playtest on a russian server next sunday 19:00 UTC.

I will make some sort of announcement with a download link for anyone that wants to join.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 25-11-2018, 13:11:08
ok
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-11-2018, 22:11:19
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 26-11-2018, 23:11:54
Hey I made those lightposts :D

was that the buggy lightmap culprit?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-11-2018, 23:11:35
Yeah? They are great. Haven´t they been used in a map before?

I changed a bit that pacific building´s texture to make it somewhat different. Still a WIP.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: fighterpil on 26-11-2018, 23:11:47
Looking great! I'm assuming the lighting will be added on later when the map is finished?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 27-11-2018, 02:11:59
I´m struggling with lightmaps at the moment. That´s why I want to have a playtest, to make sure all statics are final so I can focus heavily on fixing lightmap problems and forget about adding/removing/moving statics.

Once that is done I´ll work on textures and sounds. I guess the map will be finished around january/february.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 30-11-2018, 01:11:22

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 30-11-2018, 10:11:52
Great work blander, looks very götterdämmerung-ish.

Not sure about the Tiger II texture tho?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-11-2018, 13:11:23
Yeah, German vehicles should use the ambush style of camo scheme, the same Seelow Heights use.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 01-12-2018, 19:12:57
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21860.0
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 02-12-2018, 13:12:40
Couldn't resist testing it out. Floating objects here and there, but so far so good. Actually, quite suprised how smoothly it ran on my rather outdated system. Great work on the dug-in tanks, they really add authenticity and I like the random but convenient pickup kits left on the streets.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-12-2018, 17:12:09
I´ll address the KT texture later, noted. Yes, the map still needs a few months of work. I was really worried about the performance, I´m glad it ran smoothly for you. Since it is not a scaled map I just wanted it to have a Berlin feel, as much as possible.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 02-12-2018, 18:12:25
Yes, many of the textures would need to be redone to make it look ‘finished’ but it ran ok on my system and had some nice wider corridors which I didn’t expect. I’ll really want to see how it plays on a full server
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 03-12-2018, 00:12:13
-You can easily stuck beetween static tiger and that barrier. So make more distance between tiger and barrier
- Why non-movable AT gun in russian main base? Germans cant get there even if they want
- I would remove Sdkfz7 with towed Pak40. Towing is not working properly and if you hit something with Pak40 while driving you explode. I would replace it with StukaZuFus

Thats for now
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-12-2018, 00:12:09
I knew about the static tiger barrier. It should be made with a single custom static instead of that mashup I made. I had to reach a balance between not getting stuck and making it look good. I´ll see how I can improve that, it will be hard because I don´t know how to model, I have to stick to the mapping tools.

The non-movable AT gun is just for the looks, just like the vierling. They could be removed but I think they add a touch to the map.

The towed Pak40 has to be driven through even streets, otherwise it will get damaged or destroyed (just like in real life). It works wrong if you use it wrong, that´s the point. My recomendation is to drive slowly and conciously.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 03-12-2018, 05:12:47
The beta test went well, but can you expand the map in some places?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 03-12-2018, 05:12:45
@kutuzovrusss can you show which areas should be expanded and explain why? It would be helpful for blander to know.

[imgur is being a bitch right now so I'll try and upload pics later]

I couldn't make the test today, but I'd like to try to make the next one. Maybe a week or 2 heads up beforehand so there's a possibility of a full server. :D

I had a look around locally and it seems like there's a good base to work with. The sector push makes sense and it seems open enough to not get too bottle-necked. You said the test with 30ish people seemed to go well, so that's promising, but I'd really like to see it with a full server. It seems less like Brest and more like Ramelle (in terms of openness) or a mix of the two which isn't bad.

In terms of aesthetic it still has a long way to go, but I think that once some solid gameplay is laid out, it could be put through the paces to make it look more polished. My advice would be to treat this version as a 'white box' similar to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKQ3fyes5cQ) where the textures and details will come later, and it's more about the statics and terrain being placed and tweaked for gameplay.

I would suggest taking people's gameplay suggestions into account and adjusting the map into a new iteration to be play tested again (and again, and again if necessary) until the gameplay is where you want it. THEN, things like details, textures, effects, floaters, etc... can be commented on and improved.

Other than gameplay (which I won't comment much on since I didn't playtest) there are some things I noticed that I think you could look at improving for your next iteration;

Performance:
I got the flag bug the first time I played and there were also some FPS drops in areas with lots of smoke etc... A few suggestions;

Textures:
I forget how many unique statics you're at, but you should look at trimming the number down. I saw some vehicle wrecks that aren't also Player Controlled vehicles (ie an LRDG Chevy). As a rule of thumb you should try to only place vehicle wrecks that are also vehicles on your map. Otherwise the map is loading a texture that's only being used on a wreck. Also, the T-34 uses 2 textures when it could use one. And the German tanks can all use the '45 Seelow textures for now (custom stuff can come later).

Types of Statics:
You should also try to avoid using 'map-specific' statics (I saw the Pegasus Cafe a few times) as they're very distinct and made for that one map. I would stick to using only building types from 'France' and 'East Front' and swap out statics that aren't from those folders. In general, it would be good to comb through the map static folder in the Editor and look at statics that are used only 1 or 2 times and think about replacing them with others. (this is what I'm doing on my map now). For example you use two types of light posts, when you really only need 1 type. (the player doesn't notice the 2 types in the heat of battle).

Open Buildings:
There are some areas where you use open buildings but they're not really useful (I'm thinking of one on the road to the ruins flag) where it's a large open building that loads many textures and gets many lightmaps, but it doesn't allow you to overlook a flag, it isn't a building that is located in a flag and it doesn't lead the player to a new route or path. So imo it's just a performance waste. In general, I would keep open buildings (especially with an urban map this big, with some many ruins) in the flag zones. The rest of the areas can use closed buildings. I would go through and trim your open buildings.

Smoke
Smoke is a big performance hog so I would use it more sparingly. I like the effect of a ruined city that it gives, but it can definitely be trimmed. Sometimes I'll turn a corner and see 4-5 smoke plumes at one time. If you think about where to place them, you can place them so that the player only ever sees 1-2 at a time but almost always sees one wherever he goes. So he's constantly seeing smoke plumes but never too many at once.

Player Movement
There are lots of places where it's tough to get into doors, you have to jump over obstacles, or can get stuck etc.... I would look for those areas and run around yourself to make sure the player can move freely and easily through the map.

There is also an area on the road to Ruins where you can access an area that I don't think you want the player accessing. It's just a matter of building up the terrain around it more.

I think there's a lot of work to be done, but I do see potential in the map. Especially if people enjoyed the way it played. If you're willing to put in the work and time, I think it could be something really cool. If you feel like scrapping it and taking what you've learned and moving on, that's fine too.

I hope it can be made into something polished and fun to play tho. Not every day we get a Berlin map in the works  :)

EDIT: Here's the images I wanted to add before;
https://imgur.com/a/NbGUmBH (https://imgur.com/a/NbGUmBH)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-12-2018, 06:12:18
I think there must be a really good reason to expand the map. That would require even more objects, which I am avoiding. If I were to open it up then I would probably need to shrink/close another sector to reduce the object count.

In the future I plan on modifying some buildings and reduce them to just 1 wall instead of 4. That will help reduce the memory usage. This will be in a future patch though, first I have to learn how to do that.

I didn´t know that about the wrecks, I will replace those. I´m against having just 1 texture for all the T-34s and Panthers. I know I have to work on performance but I think that would just be too plain. Currently there are 3 Panther textures in use, I will reduce it to 2.

What is the Pegasus cafe you are talking about? If you can get me a screenshot or the static´s name I´ll have a look. In general, there are not many buildings to choose from. Maybe a texture tweak could help to make it different. I think there are 3 types of light posts. I could reduce them to 2.

About that open building you say, yes, it is pretty huge and useless. There has been some action there but I´m not sure if it is worthy. The original design idea was to have panzerfausts there. There are other open buildings which I plan on closing.

I´ll do what you say with the smoke columns.

I was aware of the various glitches, I just didn´t care too much on fixing those before the test because they wouldn´t affect gameplay. The test helped me to find more and to realise where rubble objects should be removed to allow a better flow for the tanks.

Thanks for the feedback. I´d like to have another test in january after I fix some of this stuff.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 03-12-2018, 13:12:51
If you have the static modeling skill to make sets of buildings without rear faces for the map boundaries, that would be ideal. The trick is making them modular as well so they can be used on other maps, and also come in set sizes (2m, 4m, 6m, 8m etc... similar to how our trenches and walls are set up).

In the end, this map might require a static modeling expert, it’s just a matter of if you wear both of those hats or not. (It would take a lot of time) I think if the models we have are placed right, a retexture can make it convincing.

Whatever you do to the map, you want to get it to a point where it doesn’t cause the flag bug or severe FPS drops, otherwise, it won’t be played on a public server. It’s always a balance of gameplay (I want this open building here for people to fight in) vs performance (I need to close this building to improve the maps performance) so those are just some tips to improve the latter.

I’ll upload the pics when I’m home and imgur let’s me
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 03-12-2018, 22:12:36
I think there must be a really good reason to expand the map. That would require even more objects, which I am avoiding. If I were to open it up then I would probably need to shrink/close another sector to reduce the object count.
If it played well according to your wishes in terms of gameplay, no expansion is needed.

What is the Pegasus cafe you are talking about? If you can get me a screenshot or the static´s name I´ll have a look.

This is the Pegasus Cafe, the Café Gondrée: (http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/150830/pega06.jpg)
(the building in the middle)

I think there are 3 types of light posts. I could reduce them to 2.
Or one ;)

About that open building you say, yes, it is pretty huge and useless. There has been some action there but I´m not sure if it is worthy. The original design idea was to have panzerfausts there. There are other open buildings which I plan on closing.
Sounds like it can be closed without much hesitation.

Thanks for the feedback. I´d like to have another test in january after I fix some of this stuff.
I'd like to test it too, but Sunday evening is also regular testing for FH2 as a whole, so if you want FH2 devs and/or testers to join the test, please pick another evening :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-12-2018, 02:12:00
I used that static way too much to have it replaced easily. I´ll see if I can retexture it and make it look different. If I fail I´ll think about removing it.

Alright, I´ll have just 1 lightpost type.

Good to know when you test official FH2 stuff. CMP campaign battles are on fridays so saturdays are left. Next playtest should be on saturday.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-12-2018, 03:12:58

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 05-12-2018, 17:12:47
Nice train car, who made it?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Turkish007 on 05-12-2018, 17:12:13
Looks like the Stalingrad tram from Battlegroup: Frontlines mod.

(https://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/8/7830/thumb_620x2000/tramrender1.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 05-12-2018, 17:12:32
so you got the permission to use their content after all?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-12-2018, 18:12:36
I failed to get in contact so far.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 05-12-2018, 19:12:46
Hi.
When will the next beta test be?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-12-2018, 19:12:23
Saturday 15th of december 18:00 UTC, 21:00 Moscow. Announcement will come shortly.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 05-12-2018, 21:12:27
Try not to use anyone’s content in the playtest unless they give permission.

I look forward to the next one tho :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: fighterpil on 07-12-2018, 02:12:33
Map is looking great! I'm impressed. Now in case you're looking for a loading song, I have the perfect one for you. It's called "Hot Time In The Town Of Berlin", which I think would fit perfectly. Here is a link:

Let me know what you think! I hope this helped in some way.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 02:12:22
Interesting!

What I don´t like about it is that it is in english and speaks about the americans, it kind of kills the mood imo. I was thinking about this:

There are also many interesting songs in russian of course.

This is another possibility (it gives me chills):

I will also have something like this as ambient sound for the first 15 minutes:

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 07-12-2018, 05:12:13
I would recommend to put the Russian composition when loading the map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 06:12:34
I´m improving these textures still.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 07-12-2018, 06:12:47
Isn't that the stalingrad univermag building? you shouldn't use these kinds of specific statics on a map they don't belong in.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 07:12:13
I took away the pacific buildings because they had no LODs, instead I put this one. It´s always the same problem. Pacific buildings, Pavlov´s house and Univermag building don´t belong in Berlin´s map. A lot of other stuff don´t belong either. There is not much to choose from. As fair as I know, nobody is making a Stalingrad map to use these things in. This is what I have to make a less generic map, if I get something better in the future to replace it I will for sure.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 13:12:11
Are you the one exporting these statics into the game yourself? I ask because if you have that knowledge and skill, you can make a block out of buildings in a modeling program and export them to be modeled properly in the future.

Imo it would be best to use the stuff in the “vanilla” FH folder for now (even if it’s repetative) and make note of the places that would need a custom static to be replaced later. Ultimately that’s what this map would need in the end, and right now you’re still focusing on gameplay.

Plus these unique buildings (if not exported propoerly) could be causing some lag or memory issues and prevent you from finding out if you map is optimized or not.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 14:12:47
They are from BGF mod for BF2, the export is very easy, specially because they are just statics. Last time I used 3dsmax was 11 years ago for WaW, I remember nothing about it.

I went through most buildings in the meshviewer and I removed all the heavy ones and replaced them with light poly but yet very good looking buildings. This map will never get proper statics done, nobody will make them.

I used previously unused CMP stuff and added a couple of BGF statics (I will add more in the future). I put this stalingrad building because the previous one that was there lagged too much because it had no LODs. This one only has LOD0 and LOD1, it´s better than nothing.

That location is a placeholder, if that building doesn´t work I´ll see what I put there.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 14:12:25
So you’re not exporting them from 3ds max then.

Is this a map you’re hoping to add to the CMP map-pack or are you trying to add it to the mod officially one day?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 14:12:33
No, I just grab the files and put them into the map´s folder. Since they are from another BF2 mod, they work fine.

I´d like to add the map to the CMP map-pack once it´s finished. As I said before, it will never have proper statics simply because nobody is going to make them. My goal is to contribute to this great mod and community by delivering a fun new map to play even though it is not historically accurate.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-12-2018, 15:12:12
Just a reminder that you need a permission from BGF devs to use their content, otherwise you can’t legally distribute download links to your map, if you keep ignoring that fact, I hope moderators will take care of it.

...As I said before, it will never have proper statics simply because nobody is going to make them. My goal is to contribute to this great mod and community by delivering a fun new map to play even though it is not historically accurate.
The fact there are not statics for it is one of the main resons we don’t have maps like Berlin or Stalingrad. You need to aim for achievable, you can’t just take content from other mods to finish your map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 16:12:04
Yea, maybe CMP or someone has gotten permission. But make sure not to release it without getting permission to use the stuff. We have to respect other people’s work, no matter how old it is.

Honestly, if the map is good, someone could come along a make some statics for it one day, you never know. Just concentrate on gameplay, I believe people liked the first test, so with tweaks hopefully it can be better on the 2nd test.

I think that once gameplay is where you want it, you can comb through an polish it to fix things like player movement and FPS drops and memory issues. Then things like textures, statics and lightmaps could be worked on to make it feel finished.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 16:12:52
I created a thread in the BG42 forum which has less than 10 threads in total. It is the only possibly active place someone could know about the devs. Places where there actually is a conversation about this are from 2008. I will probably never get an answer from someone that ditched the mod.

Mat, I will not wait a hundred years until a savior modeler arrives. I will release the map as soon as it is ready with whatever assets I have available. After all, I won´t make another map, I just wanted to contribute with something nice.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 16:12:37
If that’s the case, we’d have to make sure the assets are allowed to be used, otherwise nobody will release the map.

I’d hope you’re willing to make sure the map runs and plays well with the assets that you’re using, and do as much as you can to polish it before ‘finishing’ it. It might not include making statics, but it will still be a lot of work to polish as much as possible.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-12-2018, 19:12:38
I created a thread in the BG42 forum which has less than 10 threads in total. It is the only possibly active place someone could know about the devs. Places where there actually is a conversation about this are from 2008. I will probably never get an answer from someone that ditched the mod.
Then don’t use their content, ”ditched” or not, it is still copyrighted material you are not allowed to use.

Mat, I will not wait a hundred years until a savior modeler arrives. I will release the map as soon as it is ready with whatever assets I have available. After all, I won´t make another map, I just wanted to contribute with something nice.
BGF assets are not available for you without owners permission. Welcome to the world of modding.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 08-12-2018, 00:12:50
I created a thread in the BG42 forum which has less than 10 threads in total. It is the only possibly active place someone could know about the devs. Places where there actually is a conversation about this are from 2008. I will probably never get an answer from someone that ditched the mod.
Then don’t use their content, ”ditched” or not, it is still copyrighted material you are not allowed to use.

Mat, I will not wait a hundred years until a savior modeler arrives. I will release the map as soon as it is ready with whatever assets I have available. After all, I won´t make another map, I just wanted to contribute with something nice.
BGF assets are not available for you without owners permission. Welcome to the world of modding.

Seems to me....

1. If the community is dead & an honest effort has went into contacting someone after a reasonable period of time without any contact = Public domain.

2. Its not like he is selling this map for a profit. Its free to the community

I made a Pearl harbor map for 42 back in 2010 using content from several mods without permission & shared it with my clan. No lawyers came knocking on my door.

3. There is always "Fair Use".

Fair use is a doctrine in the law of the United States that permits limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder. Fair use is one of the limitations to copyright intended to balance the interests of copyright holders with the public interest in the wider distribution and use of creative works by allowing as a defense to copyright infringement claims certain limited uses that might otherwise be considered infringement.

Anyways.....Good Luck.....

:-*
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Yakovlev on 08-12-2018, 04:12:31
Hey blander if you ever interested by a historical soviet song about the battle of berlin i recommand you the song of Leonid Utyosov - Road to Berlin , it was written by Leonid in 1945 at the last months of the collapsing third reich.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-12-2018, 05:12:47
Interesting song. I don´t personally like the music itself though the lyrics are very adequate. There´s still a lot of work until the map is finished, there´s more than enough time to choose a song.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 08-12-2018, 07:12:32
photo must also be put at boot
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-12-2018, 17:12:44
@Jimi I don’t wanna derail this thread
Spoiler
that’s all well and good, but fair use doesn’t apply here. There’s no law saying that we can’t use that content. Even the Chinese mods that steal FH2s stuff get no real reprocussion because nobody has the time or patience to follow up on that stuff.

It’s more a question of morality. Those people worked really hard on their models and textures, and there’s no telling if they would’ve really been okay with others using their work for something else. Some (most) of them might not give a fuck, some of them might get legitimately angry that someone is using their work out of context. It’s not our position to say what they would’ve wanted.

Also, if we start just taking content for use in our own projects, it gives us no moral backup when we see others stealing our content.

To top that off, afaik the FH and CMP devs won’t release anything that hasn’t gotten explicit permission from the previous owner to be used. This is just a courtesy to other modders.

Keep working on the map, I’m curious to see how it plays.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: SgtAlex on 08-12-2018, 18:12:30
It would be easier if mods defined licenses for their content (creative commons for example)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 08-12-2018, 22:12:56
@Jimi I don’t wanna derail this thread
Spoiler
that’s all well and good, but fair use doesn’t apply here. There’s no law saying that we can’t use that content. Even the Chinese mods that steal FH2s stuff get no real reprocussion because nobody has the time or patience to follow up on that stuff.

It’s more a question of morality. Those people worked really hard on their models and textures, and there’s no telling if they would’ve really been okay with others using their work for something else. Some (most) of them might not give a fuck, some of them might get legitimately angry that someone is using their work out of context. It’s not our position to say what they would’ve wanted.

Also, if we start just taking content for use in our own projects, it gives us no moral backup when we see others stealing our content.

To top that off, afaik the FH and CMP devs won’t release anything that hasn’t gotten explicit permission from the previous owner to be used. This is just a courtesy to other modders.

Keep working on the map, I’m curious to see how it plays.

Agreed. Its a fascinating project!

8)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: LuckyOne on 08-12-2018, 23:12:38
It might be best to get to BGF devs through someone else. If anyone knows where to find them, it's this guy:

https://www.moddb.com/members/anthony817

So contact him first and he might give you some leads.

Also, try posting in this group, maybe someone from the original devs is in it and will see the comment:

https://www.moddb.com/groups/battlefield-mod-developers
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 13-12-2018, 12:12:56
We´re testing it on saturday:

http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21865.msg359471#new (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21865.msg359471#new)