# Forgotten Hope Public Forum

## Forgotten Hope 2 => Modding => Topic started by: blander on 25-02-2018, 06:02:01

Title: Berlin
Post by: blander on 25-02-2018, 06:02:01
Hello!

I started to learn how to map about 2 weeks ago, now I kicked off with a Berlin map. It´s in its very early stages.

It will have push mode, with 4 sectors to attack/defend, probably 2 flags each. I intend to create a Pantherturm with the existing Panther turret model and replace the french building sign textures with german ones.

1 IS-2
2 T34-85
1 SU-152
1 Katyusha (after capping first sector)

1 King Tiger (after losing first sector)
1 Panther (after losing first sector)

Any suggestions are more than welcome, beta-testers also!

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9e6PNe.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9eeqkQ.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9eeHOJ.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/H9eeSyou.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Seth_Soldier on 25-02-2018, 11:02:18
Remember not to do too much art (placing small things, creating complex defensive position ike trenches etc ...) but rather focus on a first gameplay version with raw building placement and provide a global idea how you want it to be played
(very difficult because players often can ruin you gameplay if you didn't think about every exploit possible)

Also remember what kind of ww2 experience you want your player to feel. You must unconsciously force them to experiment it and avoid them to break it with unrealistic/stupid behaviour.

If you can't reproduce a real location, it's fine. What is important is the ww2 feeling and the right content used.

From your first screenshot, i guess you want to go for the streets fights.
Some of my feelings about street fights are :
Quote
large deadly street dominated by german tank :
- long distance tank battle
- easiest way to advance if soviet succeed to destroy german tanks

These large deadly road could force the player to use parallel small deadly street (only one tank large), or it could be the next sector after the large street (this way, your gameplay can radically change each sector):
- deadly for tank without infantery
- panzerfaust fest (<- you must be carefull where you place open building and clise building - think about ramelle)
- infantery fight will be the most important.
- narrow street increase the action
- if the street aren't narrow to one tank, then place obstacle so only a tank can maneuver 1 at a time.

The beginning of the map should be relatively easy for the soviet. But the last sector should be a meat grinder.
Soviet get artillery.
German can have a nice mix of poor infantery class (carcano, obsolete stuff) and excellent class (stg44).
The map could be someting like 1st sector = berlin outskirt or openfield garden, 2nd sector = large street, 3rd sector = narrow street

Good luck !
As i often say, it takes 20% of the total time to create 80% of a map.
But you need 80% the total time to finish it !
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 25-02-2018, 14:02:00
Ambitious project :)

First thought: 4 sectors with 2 flags each: too much (unneeded complexity, esp for a first map). Focus on less sectors, for instance 3 with 2 flags each.

Second thought: what Seth said. Place yourself in the biggest troll out there and try to abuse every aspect of your map, then think about solutions to prevent it.

Last thought: like I said, ambitious project, but it'd be nice if it will be finished. I wish you a lot of stamina!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 25-02-2018, 23:02:52
I read the recommendations about mapmaking. The thing is, some times I just mix up the steps, not to get too bored or saturated of one task. Some times I place roads, other times I place buildings, fix exploits, add art, place buildings, modify textures and height, etc.

I don´t want to reproduce a real location. Instead, some parts of the map (like the first screenshot) will have similarities with real photos, all over the map. So it will look like Berlin to some degree.

The general infantry/tank balance idea would be that the only way the russians could effectively advance through the streets is with tank support on the front, which I want it to be a constant factor. What will change, from sector to sector, is what the germans have to deal with the soviet tanks. In some parts only faust/explosives/schreck, other sectors AT guns and tanks. View distance is set to high for long range combat.

I thought about the idea of obsolete weapons. Maybe the main kits (K98, StG44) could be limited, so a few people would be forced to use volksturm weapons.

It´s too late to make an outskirt sector. Kickoff for the russians is the first screenshot. It has 3 streets, connected in some points. The germans have a fixed 88 and a movable Pak40. Quite little to deal with 4 heavy tanks, but that´s the whole idea.

I have the whole map layout on paper, the next sector would be an open square, used as an AA site for the germans (based on real photo).

The 3rd sector should have a main very wide street and a Pantherturm at the end of it (based on real photo). I´m also thinking about modding a static Tiger I simulating it has no fuel, only turret usable. This sector should feature a long range tank/arty engagement.

The last sector should have very narrow streets, a total meat grinder.

It is an ambitious Project indeed. The initial idea of 4 sectors might be too much as you say, I´ll see how it goes as I create it, I hope I can include all 4. I do check every possible abuse regularly.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 26-02-2018, 00:02:05
High viewdistance is for flying. I assume you don't have planes on this map planned (and otherwise I advise you now to not put them on), so I'd lower the viewdistance.

Not only is medium enough for urban tank combat, but it will also prevent your map from lagging like hell. All visible objects will need to be generated, so with medium you will have less of those, improving the performance of your map. Closed buildings also improve the performance, so don't put too many open buildings in (a frequently made mistake by - starting - mappers).
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-02-2018, 01:02:42
There will be no planes here. The viewdistance is on the limit where you can see from one end to the other of the longest street. I know it increases lag, but otherwise tank combat would be too limited. As a general rule I used closed buildings as default. Then I replaced them with open ones only where I need them, to provide cover for the advancing/defending troops. I placed a zig-zag pattern of closed and open buildings on both sides of the street around the hot areas.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-03-2018, 05:03:25
I have a question: what do I have to do to replace an existing texture with one I made myself? For example, some buildings I used have french ads, I want to replace the original texture files and put german ads instead. Where should I place the files? How do I route the static to the new texture file?

Maybe I have to make a new static and add it to the map folder, all the same but just with a different texture?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Roughbeak on 02-03-2018, 17:03:47
Hi, this is called texture suffixing.

For an example in "Objects\StaticObjects\France\textures\" there is a texture called "france_propaganda_c.dds." As you can see there are some additional textures with suffixing including "_brest" and "_phl."
Perhaps, a mapper can explain this better than I can, but in order for the suffixes to work, a map's "Init.con" file needs to contain the characters such as "_brest" or "_phl" in the appropriate code spot.

For an example what I mean in the Init.con file:
Code: [Select]
if v_arg1 == BF2EditorLevelSettings.CustomTextureSuffix "brest"elsetexturemanager.customTextureSuffix "brest"endIf
In your case, you could make it as "berlin" (along with your new "_berlin" texture suffix). Hope this helps! :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-03-2018, 02:03:19
Thank you, I will look into it!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 03-03-2018, 05:03:05
Berlin was a HUGE battle. Impossible to duplicate in a FH2 map.

You should narrow your focus on a particular sector of the battle.

I hear Forgotten Hope: Secret Weapon has a Pretty nice Reichstag static that could be ported over to FH2.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/forgotten-hope-secret-weapon/images/fall-of-berlin

;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-03-2018, 06:03:59
Oh man that looks nice but I already have to figure out lots of stuff, I did not expect to replicate a real place, I would have to start the map from 0 using a 1:1 scale to include the Reichstag.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 04-03-2018, 14:03:48
Agreed on the panzerfausts and non-static Pak 40(s). Not too sure about the fixed 88, it would be always easy to wipe out from a distance, this would also apply to the Tiger I since it also opposes no threat to heavier Soviet tanks, esp. when facing head-on (IS-2's frontal armour is impenetrable).
Few Panzer IV/70(V) were used to defend Berlin, that might be suitable due it's low profile and rare appearance of the vehicle. Even one "Stuka zu fuß" might work well, considering it as a balance factor and the fact they were there.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-03-2018, 06:03:36
The only tank (in the map) that cannot be touched from the front by an 88 is the IS-2, besides the map design allows for German infantry to reach the tank before it gets in range of the first 88. In addition, the IS-2 driver might decide not to go through the main street where the 88 is. That´s were the strategy and human factor kicks in.

There were of course different kinds of German tanks in Berlin. I do not want to place more than 2 though to generate the feel of being low in tank numbers compared to the russians. Which could those 2 tanks be... I don´t know yet. Maybe I could just go for the ones that are more rarely used in the whole FH2 map pool. The Stuka zu fuß is a possibility too, though I initially thought of giving the germans no artillery at all, to simulate the same feel as with the tanks.

The idea about the static Tiger I was to simulate the lack of fuel, the tank to be used could be a different one.

It is important to make a decision about what tanks will the germans have. Now I started to make the 2nd sector where german armor gets into battle. The design of the map should make it easier for the german infantry to defend if they only had lets say a Jagdpanzer IV and a StuG III as tank force. But if instead of that a Tiger II and a Panther were the tanks available then I should change some things in the map.

Thanks for all the help and feedback, looking forward to making an enjoyable map!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 05-03-2018, 10:03:52
The idea about the static Tiger I was to simulate the lack of fuel, the tank to be used could be a different one.

Liking the idea. Maybe placing the Tiger behind some obstacle/another tank wreck would give it a bit more protection, similar to the one at Altonaer Straße:

(http://i2.tinypic.com/v8hgrp.jpg)

Absolutely agree on using more unique AFVs on the map, incl. "ad hoc" solutions or those that were not necessarily the latest or most efficient types. Sd.Kfz.251/22 and Sd.Kfz.234/4 (vehicles that we don't have ATM) were both very common in Berlin and in urban fighting scenario they'd probably function better than a non-static Pak 40 in terms of agility, speed. Anyway, looking forward to updates on this map  8)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-03-2018, 16:03:19
I will take the idea of that picture. I saw those debris barricades on other pics and I replicated them already. I will soon post some pics, though the art is rough still, but that doesn´t matter much at this point of the map. Now I´m focusing on finishing the last touches of the balancing of the first sector.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-03-2018, 01:03:53
What if I also modified the sound files of the tank ammo selection and reload to include voices like "load HE" and "loaded"? I wonder if the FH2 devs ever considered that and dumped it for practical reasons.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-03-2018, 10:03:29
how is that related to the map? I doubt devs ever considered such thing for a simple reason: there are no voice commands for that in 8 languages used in FH2.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-03-2018, 12:03:06
Just another minor detail that comes to my mind and that I guess I can easily implement. I will just need 2 languages here and they don´t need to match the mod´s voices.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-03-2018, 04:03:51
(https://i.imgur.com/bneAasj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7sr6MUE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3rQ1m4C.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aFpYANz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uOozxD7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HOcLhro.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bmlPntj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fuwAVpa.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8bVBeJ3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dtPzD4z.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LELrxYK.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 08:03:09
Looking good already. Grey Flak is a nice touch  :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 08-03-2018, 09:03:23
AFAIK wrong though for 1945.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 10:03:42
You could say the same thing about the half of German equipment left in April 1945. Sure, there were probably more Flak 36/37 in use, but visually it's pretty close match and it blends in with the overall grey-ish tone of the map.

(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/un-gi-assis-sur-un-canon-antiarien-allemand-le-reichstag-en-dtruit-picture-id690437294)

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6157/6188891188_989251038a_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 08-03-2018, 17:03:58
Looks great!
Make sure to chew up that nice little park a bit.
We can play test it during the scrim of the next campaign, maybe.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 18:03:27
The screens etc... are nice to see, but do you have a minimap that you can show? Something that shows the overall gameplay layout and how the player will move through the city and sectors?

Like this;
(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/devblog/Prokhorovka/prok_blog_3.jpg)
or this;
(http://i.imgur.com/tcdFQEM.png)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-03-2018, 18:03:00
Alright will change the Flak color then.

The green area is the second sector of the map which is completely raw, it has no detail at the moment.

To be honest I didn´t learn how to generate the minimap yet. Is it easy to do?

I still have to figure out how to re-texture town signs and how to make the static Tiger and Pantherturm. Right now I just want to finish at least the first 2 sectors of the map, I want to test it with players and check out the general balance.

About the map´s greyish look, the skybox and lightning are just test, I will look into that much later, don´t really care for the moment.

Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 18:03:05
With your map open in the level editor go to the Editor>General Bar on the right, click on the generate button, to get a very basic minimap.

Sometimes you have to go to the bottom tab and run the scripts:  minCulldistance 2000 and noLods 1 if certain buildings etc... don't show up
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 20:03:35
Alright will change the Flak color then.

Nooooo..  :o Not complaing about the colors at all. Greyish theme would be realistic, since the spring of '45 was rather cold (with a dull sun) as you can see in this picture from Berlin:

(http://c7.alamy.com/comp/DKYWNA/soldiers-of-the-german-wehrmacht-are-taken-as-prisoners-by-the-red-DKYWNA.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 20:03:35
I think he’s talking about the dunkelgrau flak gun. TS pointed out it should be dunkelgelb since the Germans switched to that as their base paint color in 1943.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 08-03-2018, 21:03:18
True, but if you look at the pictures from 1944-45 you will notice many of the German A.A. guns (from Flakvierling to Flak 40) were still in grey, even the ones mounted on otherwise camouflaged vehicles.

(http://c7.alamy.com/comp/BBNAGN/events-second-world-war-wwii-russia-1944-1945-german-88-mm-anti-aircraft-BBNAGN.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-03-2018, 22:03:23
I wouldn't say "many." It's certainly possible to have a dunkelgrau flak gun that survived until the end of the war, but I'd say that the vast majority of them would've been dunkelgelb by that point. Considering the directive went out in February of 1943, there's a much higher chance that a flak gun in '45 would've been created after that time.

It's also hard to judge B&W images when it comes to color. Lighting, contrast etc... can all effect how they look. The one that you posted in front of the Reichstag looks dark;
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-12.jpg)

while other photos look light;
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/berlin-place_9_17.jpg)
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-26.jpg)
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-29.jpg)
(http://vn-parabellum.com/images/battles/berlin/reichstag-defence-22.jpg)

It's also good to keep the 88 the same color as the pak40s etc... that are being used.

If the map is about a specific unit in Berlin, or a specific sector where there's evidence of dunkelgrau being used, then that would justify going against the status quo. But in general, dunkelgelb would've been much more common.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-03-2018, 00:03:32
Quote
With your map open in the level editor go to the Editor>General Bar on the right, click on the generate button, to get a very basic minimap.

I don´t find the generate button. I haven´t investigated at all about the minimap generation. Unless it´s something easy I don´t want ot waste too much time on it since not even half of the map´s main layout is done. I expect to finish that this week.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 09-03-2018, 08:03:54
Putting any type of applique armour on the AFVs was also strictly forbidden, but how many units followed this order? German High Command was busy giving all types of nitpicking directives even late as April '45, but not too many cared to follow any of them.

Anyways, Flak(s) you posted are not all the same, unless someone re-did the killrings and moved the position for (almost) each single shot. Majority of Berlin's Flak equipment area was already set (in reserve) between 1940-42, after the bombing campaigns lauched by the RAF. But sure, lets go camo or better yet, ambush camo on everything   :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 09-03-2018, 14:03:05
The "generate" minimap button is "show".  It's under minimap near the bottom of the right hand side menu.

Don't worry about your flak gun color at this point in your map.  That stuff is so easy to change at the last minute.  You wont finalize it until after a good play test.  Someone can help you make custom textures if you need it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-03-2018, 17:03:57
I thought that minimap would appear in-game but it doesn´t, its only in the editor. I guess I can take a screenshot from the editor so you can have a look.

I just extracted all the CMP files and was glad to see that they have a lot of great statics, now I have a wider set of buildings to place, the map is looking much nicer now since it was getting too reppetitive. I think no other map so far has so many clumped up buildings like this one.

I guess I will figure out how to make the textures and the new vehicles I need since I just need to modify existing stuff and I´ve done this in FH1. Nevertheless it would be great if somebody wanted to help me with that so I can finish the mapping faster.

The textures I need are:

- Replacing all existing french signs with german ones (ads and such things on buildings).
- Modifying other signs to make them unique for this map and sticking them to specific buildings around the map (Hotel, Restaurant, etc)
- Just a few building skins could have different touches to make them unique.
- Minor details to german and soviet vehicles.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-03-2018, 21:03:39
Buildings on the top left are not showing but you get the idea. Note you have to scroll right to see the whole pic.

First part has 3 long streets to go through, connected together in some points.

Second part has short streets, it´s gonna be more difficult for the tanks to survive there. There is also an anti-tank ditch and tank blockers. As a tanker I would sit on the open green part and soften up the first line of german defense. As russians conquer the first sector german tanks should spawn at the other end of the map. They should reach the second sector if the infantry manages to hold it long enough.

(https://i.imgur.com/2a22JHR.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 09-03-2018, 21:03:22
You have to rename the minimap "ingamemap" and then move it to your HUD/Minimap folder manually.
For the final version, follow some of these instructions to make it look great:
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f189-modding-tutorials/31987-how-make-perfect-minimap.html  Then compress it DXT1, I think.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 09-03-2018, 22:03:08
A little more in-depth about the minimap; when you click the 'generate' button it makes a file called minimap.dds in C:\Program Files (x86)\EA GAMES\Battlefield 2\mods\fh2\levels\(your_map_name)\Editor.

That's what I wanted to look at to get a better overview of the map, but the screenshot helps :)

To make that minimap show up in game you need to take that minimap file and copy it to your HUD/Minimap folder and name it ingamemap.dds. All the rest of that stuff in the PR tutorial is kinda when the map is finalized, a basic minimap is fine for now.

EDIT:
I took a look at the layout and I'm glad you have a nice plan going :) just a few notes that might help you as you develop;

Designing Forgotten Hope 2 Maps (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21296.msg350358#msg350358)
This is a nice write up TS did about sector push gameplay design. It's helpful to keep those things in mind as you map.

Also, considering an urban map like this, keep in mind other FH2 urban maps (the good and the bad) and take lessons about what works well (and what doesn't :D)

For example; Battle of Brest also has 3 main 'routes' into each flag, but those routes tend to get crowded with 100 players on a server and makes for very meat grinder/ stagnant gameplay.

Fall of Tobruk on the other hand is another example of an Urban map that is a bit more open and the gameplay flows a little better.

You've already got your 'sectors' laid out which is good. Keep those in mind as you map and how the map should progress. Most professional maps have a 'narrative' where each Sector is categorized by a certain 'theme' or 'feel.' That makes the map dynamic and fun for the player to progress through. for example Seelow has the player fighting through the flood plains in the first sector, the ridge/ trenches in the second sector and the destroyed town in the third (St Vith has a nice narrative too).

You don't have to think too much about specific buildings or adding detail statics just yet, but it's good to keep in mind your 'narrative' (i.e. first sector is ruins, second sector is fighting over the open square or whatever)

It's good to start by just placing the major statics at this point to get an idea for how the player will move through the map so I wouldn't worry about building textures or vehicle textures etc... just yet.

Good stuff! :D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 10-03-2018, 02:03:46
So much design reading got me dizzy. Will this be a meat grinder? Well, to a degree, yes. If the situation turns out to be unbareable I planned to just keep all building placements but move/remove flags and spawnpoints. That´s the main way I have here to balance the map after testing with players.

Since this could become a grenade fest I will probably limit grenade kits, at least on the german side. I tried to place open buildings in a way the defenders should have to occupy them all and the attackers would have to clear every house as they advance.

Maybe the map is already needing some testing, I wouldn´t like to add more art and details if say another street needs to be added to decompress the meat grinder.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 11-03-2018, 00:03:41
I'd love it if you wouldn't limit grenade kits per se, but solve it by limiting the number of grenades per kit (one instead of more than one), and make it hard to rearm them at an ammo point.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 11-03-2018, 00:03:55
I thought about having the main rifle kit without any grenades to simbolize the supplies and ammo shortage. It could also be limited to 1 grenade per kit as you say, I guess it needs testing with actual players to see what´s best.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 11-03-2018, 09:03:17
I made the second sector a bit bigger for more flanking. Here are some raw pics.

First flag:

(https://i.imgur.com/esvVW1z.jpg)

Approaches:

(https://i.imgur.com/rH2WsVt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/IWbh1w4.jpg)

Second flag (will probably become a hospital):

(https://i.imgur.com/cmAF57S.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ms8ncW1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2pNwcxm.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 11-03-2018, 17:03:15
Looking good there, but it's still a bit sterile (esp the last two). I assume you're gonna add details to make it more "alive" as soon as gameplay is finished?

The houses on the first one look superbright, but I guess you'll be able to fix that with lightmaps.

Make sure you upload it here when it's finished so we can test it ingame :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 07:03:10
I´m working on those details now... at least until I figure out what to do for the third sector. I thought about a river crossing but the bridge could end up being a new Ramelle, which I don´t want. Maybe it could be just for the looks, with no real fighting on it.

I guess it will take me 4-5 months to finish it 100%.

I can upload it whenever testers are available. Sector 1 and 2 are playable right now.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 12-03-2018, 16:03:21
If you really want a good test, have something playable in time for the opening of the next CMP campaign.  We can get you 40-80 players, depending on whether we put it in the scrims or just an opening day event.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 16:03:59
Where can I get more info about the CMP campaign? I need to speak to someone in charge of getting the maps set for the server and for distribution among the players. I suppose it´s done via Community Updater, right? How can I get to talk with those guys?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 12-03-2018, 16:03:48
Go to the website https://cmp-gaming.com/ and join their Discord or just post on the website.  I'll talk to them about adding you to the Dev team.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 12-03-2018, 17:03:41
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-03-2018, 20:03:26
If you really want a good test, have something playable in time for the opening of the next CMP campaign.  We can get you 40-80 players, depending on whether we put it in the scrims or just an opening day event.
That would be great for balance related stuff. If you need testing to see if the map works OK when it comes to memory usage, static placement, etc. then just upload it here so we can download it and try it out. For balance you would need a lot of players, for the other stuff not. There would smaller numbers be better actually, because the other players would simply distract too much from the testing.

For third sector I'd advise to do something simple, as the attacking team has to work through two sectors before they get there. So a bridge crossing would indeed be a bit much. Maybe a huge building in which they have to capture both the basement and the upper floors would work, or two different buildings opposite each other on a square or something.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: RayderPSG on 12-03-2018, 22:03:33
Where can I get more info about the CMP campaign? I need to speak to someone in charge of getting the maps set for the server and for distribution among the players. I suppose it´s done via Community Updater, right? How can I get to talk with those guys?

Blander, en la página cmp-gaming.com! Ya estás registrado de hecho jaja. Ahí hay mappers y demás, habla con ellos.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 22:03:26
Double post
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-03-2018, 22:03:54
Thank you! I will look into that. Gracias Rayder!

I have 2 sectors left to make, I thought that one could have a wide street or boulevard (Unter Den Linden stylish???) to have a less claustrophobic battlefield. It could include more open spaces like a square as you said, Slayer.

I wanted to save the huge building flag for last, but it could be done in the third sector. If that is the case, I have no idea of what to do (different) in the fourth sector. I have to take into consideration that all sectors have to be at least relatively tank-friendly. If I make a flag where tanks play no role then the logic says tank drivers would ditch them as soon as they get to the infantry-only area. The flag has to be made in a way that tanks can participate, even if they can´t get into the flagzone themselves. I did this in the first sector but it would be harder to do in a huge building. Maybe it could be layed out in a way that russian tanks still play a role cutting off german respawning players attempting to get into the flag building.

I would love to replicate a real place but it wouldn´t look good since I lack the specific statics.

All ideas are welcome to improve the map!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-03-2018, 23:03:37
Oh right, you have four sectors. Sorry, I still thought from the three sectors perspective ;)

You could bind the tankspawns to the second sector so that as soon as it's lost, they won't respawn: problem solved.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 13-03-2018, 00:03:26
It is indeed a good idea, but it is the opposite to what I planned. I expected to have a tank-to-tank battle around the last 2 sectors. I expected it to work the opposite way, the more the map progresses, the more vehicles become available.

This is what I have in mind so far for soviet tank/arty loadout:

* 1  IS-2
* 2  T-34/85
* 1  SU-152
* 1 Katyusha (after capping 1st sector)
* 1 T-34/76 (after capping 2nd sector)
* Maybe more arty for balance

* 1 Panther G (after losing 1st sector)
* 1 Tiger II (after losing 2nd sector)
* 1 Nebelwerfer at 2nd sector
* Multiple PaK40 and 88mm Flak
* Static Tiger I and Pantherthurm
* Maybe a Stuka zu Fuß if necessary for balance

There will be no wrench kit. Once static guns are destroyed there is no coming back to life. Tanks and other vehicles will have a long respawn time. The idea is to have players play smart and not waste the equipment. That´s an important flaw I find in some maps. I will also remove SL spawns. Distances are not long so there will not be too much boring running times, it´s all about playing smart and as a team, that is what I want to encourage.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FHMax3 on 13-03-2018, 10:03:31
I don't think a T-34 76 is needed.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 13-03-2018, 16:03:11
It is indeed a good idea, but it is the opposite to what I planned.
OK, it's your map ofc, so go ahead :) It's just a bit more ligical that if you fight yourself into a trwon's center, that it becomes more and more an infantry fight and that tanks should play less and less of a role. Think of it as outskirts - suburb - quarter - town center. Most vehicle traffic in peacetime would be in outskirts, and like in peacetime, vehicles have more trouble driving around in town center. So, that's my chain of thoughts, but it's all a matter of opinion of course.

There will be no wrench kit. Once static guns are destroyed there is no coming back to life. Tanks and other vehicles will have a long respawn time. The idea is to have players play smart and not waste the equipment. That´s an important flaw I find in some maps. I will also remove SL spawns. Distances are not long so there will not be too much boring running times, it´s all about playing smart and as a team, that is what I want to encourage.
I understand, but most players will not play smart, just take a look at an average public round. Not having a wrench might look like a nice plan, but it will cause frustration: players expect that they can repair static guns, vehicles and what not. Maybe try to encourage smart gameplay in different ways, so that you don't force them.

Same goes for SL spawn btw. I think you should try and finish the map first with all the "normal" gameplay properties of FH2, because that way it can be easily seen if things work out or not. After that you could try and experiment on things, like no SL spawn. If you do it rightaway, there is little to compare it to, and then the testing will be a little obsolete and just based on gut feelings.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 13-03-2018, 18:03:51
^ this.

You need to remember that when creating a map, especially your first map, you should accomodate to the mod and existing gameplay mechanics that come with it, not the other way around. That means your map supposed to work within the mod without any changes, especially to basic mechanics like SL spawn etc. Otherwise we are not talking about mapping here anymore, but about creating a minimod, so keep it simple.

Also note, that changing gameplay mechanics to YOUR LIKINGS, but only map side is probably not the best idea because, gameplay for the most part is, and should always be global (affect mod as a whole), and due to that fact, be well known and easily understandable by ALL players in game. Any deviation from that will be unclear, confusing or frustrating at least to some people and you don't want that. Not to mention that it is a simple matter of taste. You like when people play smart, others like to just run n' gun. A good map should satisfy them all.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-03-2018, 00:03:25
The outskirts - suburb - quarter - town center is a nice setup for the map but since I started out with lots of tall appartments it´s already too late to go for that, unfortunately I didn´t think of that when I started the map.

I can leave the SL spawn but I am definately limiting the wrenches, maybe even just to a few pickups. Think of Ramelle. A guy sitting on the Tiger spamming F2 F3 F4 to dodge bullets like in Matrix while repairing a tank on the move in the middle of a fight in a clogged up street? I don´t want that for my map. It´s not about my likings, it´s about avoiding exploits.

About the T34 76, I saw a picture with one in Berlin. It´s just an idea, nothing final.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 15-03-2018, 05:03:29
I wouldn't worry too much about the gameplay and loadout stuff too much right now.  Just get your map looking good.  That stuff is pretty easy to change when the time comes.
I don't know if you have figured it out yet, but there is no way the FH2 Devs are going to take and release your map in the official mod, so you should consider what will become of it.  Your only real hope is to get it released by the custom community.  It may end up in a tournament.  It might end up getting nav-meshed for single player.  And it might end up released as a pubby map in the CMP map pack.  In each case, you would have different set up and gameplay concerns.  BTW, the current Pacific maps with ships in the CMP don't have spawn-in wrench kits.  This is to avoid ship repair exploit.  Players complain in all-chat but they are certainly used to not being able to repair everything.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-03-2018, 05:03:10
Yes, my goal is to have the map in the CMP pool. I´m using CMP statics to have more variation. Some are sorta buggy, I´m doing my best to keep them and making bugs the least noticeable.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-03-2018, 06:03:19
I found out map CTD when I spot for arty with binoculars. What could this be?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 15-03-2018, 14:03:22
“Your crash is caused by your tmp.con being empty. You need to add the following lines to it to solve the crashes:

run ClientArchives.con

run ../../objects/Common/CommonSpawners.con

physics.airDensityZeroAtHeight 3000
windmanager.globalWindSpeed 1
windmanager.globalWinddirection 0.66/-0.5/0.66”
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 15-03-2018, 20:03:17
I wouldn't worry too much about the gameplay and loadout stuff too much right now.  Just get your map looking good.
Lol, this is exactly what he should not do. Gameplay comes first, and then I don't mean balance, but what you need to place static wise, where the routes to flags are, how many routes to the same flag there are etc. etc. That's first. If that fails, the map will never work, as we can see in various examples on #1.

Making the map "look good" is the last thing you do, after everything is set in stone what the map is gonna play like.

And stating that players are "used to" not being able to repair everything while there are 45 stock maps and I don't know how many CMP maps of which there are 4 (?) on which you can't repair sh*t (I understand the goal of it but the means is way too harsh imo because it effects land battle too much), well, that's just overstating things dramatically.

...but I am definately limiting the wrenches, maybe even just to a few pickups.
Limiting stuff is OK if things become too spammy. There are other ways to prevent people to zap-repair things like the Tiger. For example you could make it necessary to keep a number of footsoldiers for capping flags (plaving them inside a courtyard or something, so tanks can't reach them), otherwise the team can't win.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-03-2018, 09:03:29
Thanks Matthew_Baker, that fixed the spotting problem.

Speaking of german spawnable kits. Is it possible (im 99% sure it is) to have different uniforms depending on the kit? If it is, would it fit the map? For example I could have some kits wearing feldgrau uniforms and others with a cammo pattern. I guess this would be quite historical in fact. What do you think about it? Would it look good and/or be correct?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 17-03-2018, 11:03:31
Yes, that is how it works. Just look at any init.con to see the different models.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 18-03-2018, 10:03:52
I used a CMP static which is causing trouble. It´s a cobblestone sidewalk. It looks great but something is wrong with the colmesh maybe. Vehicles act strange on it. In the best case they just turn super mega fast on it. In the worst case they just do crazy things and can even get launched into the air.

I want to keep the static, even though it is taking me hours to figure out how to fix this. I have 2 ways:

1. Bypass the bug, set the static with no colmesh and tweak the terrain so that it is just below the sidewalk, so you won´t notice it has no colmesh.

2. Find and fix the bug.

I tried creating a copy of the static with a new name and just replaced the material used. I put sand in instead of the original concrete. The buggy effect on vehicles was unaffected.

What do you recommend?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 18-03-2018, 15:03:17
I recommend you get on discord and the CMP map pack channel and we can see if we can hunt down the bug.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-03-2018, 06:03:34
Will do. One CMP building also has awful lighting and it´s an important building in the map cause it´s a flag and it´s quite big. I realised I can´t stop and fix these issues, I would never be able to complete the map at this pace. I just made those bugs less noticeable and moved on. More pics coming soon.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 22-03-2018, 05:03:35
The last thing I did was placing trees and now the map crashes.

14%
check mapdata file
check gameplay.con
Crash on dedicated server (server side crash) - Missing surrounding terrain .raw files
Check your navmesh (possible isolated vertices)

I didn´t use overgrowth, just manual tree placing. Could there be some buggy tree that you know? What is the easiest way to fix this? I don´t want to remove all the trees, you understand.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 22-03-2018, 18:03:09
There are definitely some buggy trees that crash the game or even editor.  Usually it happens when you use them as overgrowth.  I guess it can happen the other way too.  What trees are you using?

Sometimes with vegetation in staticobjects.con there is the line:  Object.isOvergrowth 1
You can delete that or add it if it's not there and see if it fixes the crash.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 24-03-2018, 11:03:38
Alright I found the damn buggy tree... took it out already, thanks for the info!

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzgVQ.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzKEK.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzTQw.jpg)

3rd sector WIP:

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmAAGG.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmzuM6.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmA5J3.jpg)

(http://i2.tinypic.com/v8hgrp.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmAg3t.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2018, 14:03:19
Who needs creativity when you can just copy photos...

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdGoPml.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdGj74l.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdGouCp.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 26-03-2018, 15:03:26
Looking pretty good...  I take the building on the right is accessible? It would make a fair strong point to KO the Tiger with a captured Panzerfaust. Another thing - do you have extremely slow, hand cranked traverse on the Tiger's turret or is it power assisted?

And have you thought of scaling down some of the buildings, because in the screenshots they look yooge?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 26-03-2018, 17:03:15
This is a map project.  I don't think he has the ability to make new buildings or new Tigers
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2018, 17:03:43
You mean the red building? I initially placed a half-destroyed one for infantry to fight for but the red one looks closer to the one in the real photo. The tiger will be immobile and could have a slower moving turret, I bet that´s not hard to do.

What huge buildings are you talking about? The appartments on the right of the Tiger screenshot? I made them extra tall on purpose, like in the real photo. 5 storey to be precise.

Bare in mind I just try to copy some aspects of the photos just for fun, no real intention of making 1:1 replicas.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2018, 17:03:44
What would be the most correct spawnable russian anti-tank kit here? I´m not fond of spawnable panzerfausts like in Seelow but if it´s historically accurate then I´ll take it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 26-03-2018, 17:03:12
n/m
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 26-03-2018, 19:03:57
What would be the most correct spawnable russian anti-tank kit here? I´m not fond of spawnable panzerfausts like in Seelow but if it´s historically accurate then I´ll take it.
It is. Russians captured shit tons of panzerfausts and used them themelves untill the end of the war.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 28-03-2018, 08:03:10
nvm, just copying python scripts from seelow
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 28-03-2018, 11:03:03
How do you set the out of bounds but just for 1 team? In this case, I don´t want the germans to enter the russian mainbase and viceversa.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-03-2018, 11:03:09
You make an oob just for the Germans and leave out the russian mainbase. You can set teams in the tweak bar.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-03-2018, 09:03:12
Thanks!

I got a minor question. When I manually write down the pickup kits in the .con file they show up in-game just fine. But when I work in the editor and then I save objects the pickup kits go blank again in the .con file. What´s the best solution for this?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-03-2018, 11:03:21
Two more:

1. I placed a nebelwerfer spawner. In the editor all the buildings around it are lit bright. After doing the lightmaps the light on the buildings remained in-game. Is it a known bug? If that´s the case, next time I will just remove the nebel spawner before creating the lightmaps.

2. I worked (due to my ignorance at the time) with the editor´s default layer. This caused that the 16, 32 and 64 player layers were generated. So now I created from the editor a 64 layer identical to default layer and I disabled the default layer. The problem is, all 16, 32 and 64 versions keep appearing in the game´s menu. How do I remove the 16 and 32 options?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 31-03-2018, 17:03:58
You need to generate a lightmap atlas.  That's what the game uses, not the individual lightmap object files.

The 64, 32, and 16 you see in the menu is from the .desc file in the info folder.  You have to edit that.  Just delete the lines that refer to them.  Maybe there is a way to do that in the editor.  I am not sure.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-03-2018, 20:03:38
AFAIK the editor creates the atlas right after finishing the lightmaps. At least that´s what the debugger says, but I´ll look further into it.

Alright, I will fix that .desc file, I found those lines. Thank you!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 31-03-2018, 23:03:37
No,
There is a "generate atlas lightmaps" option under compile/lightmaps.  It gives you some choice about size and dxt compression(I use default), then it asks to look for obsolete lightmaps.    If you didn't do that, you don't have it.  Those atlas images are the only ones that get packed into the map.  The individuals ones are just used by the editor.

At some point you need to start getting familiar with the files and checking that the editor did the right thing and that the packing script worked as well.  The editor is notorious for screwing up and not saving correctly, etc.

~edit:  I checked your map in game.  Most everything is lightmapped.  I see a few missing on buildings I've never seen before.  You probably don't have the samples for those or for some reason they didn't get added to the atlas.  At this point you can try to fix that and lightmap them idividually, then "generate atlas lightmaps" when done.  You don't have to lightmap everything again.  I'm not sure what problem you are having with the nebelwerfer.  Those player controlled objects don't take lightmaps or leave affect the lightmaps of other things.  They have dynamic shadows in game.  It should break a lightmap but wont help make one either.   Otherwise it's looking pretty good.  You can fix those missing lightmaps later.

If you don't see any lightmaps in gmae, it's because your graphics settings are too low.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-04-2018, 02:04:32
For some reason my bf2editor seems to generate lightmap atlas right after generating the lightmap.

There are buildings and other CMP objects that lack lightmap samples or either have faulty ones. I´ll just replace them with other buildings, I don´t have time to fix unfinished models.

About the nebel, it does affect the lightmapping. I don´t care to understand why. I will just remove it before making the final lightmap. When it´s done I´ll add back again the nebel, hoping that will fix the problem.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 03-04-2018, 03:04:08
It's normal that the atlas is created automatically after lightmapping.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-04-2018, 05:04:13
How do you port a static from bf 1942?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 08-04-2018, 03:04:57
Get 3dsmax7 and the bf42 tools. Resave. Open in a newer version of 3dsmax (used to be 9, but the newer tools work with later versions aswell). After that it's some UV-rearranging and other stuff of course.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-04-2018, 06:04:50
Dang... too much time invested for little reward. Thanks, maybe I can find other statics in other BF2 mods that I could use, I guess that would require much less work since it´s the same game.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 20-04-2018, 03:04:17
Hello and welcome back to another question by Blander.

1. Soldiers glow in the map, I heard it has something to do with Hemimaps but I know nothing about Hemimaps. Help please?

2. Loading music. I couldn´t figure how to create correctly the .ogg file. How do I do it?

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 20-04-2018, 03:04:10
1. generate groundhemi   I think it is under compile below generate lightmaps, etc.

2. you need BF soundtools to get the right .ogg that works with Bf2.  It needs to be in the correct wave for to do that.  Look it up and have fun or just give me your music file and I will do it.  Contact me at CMP forum or in Discord.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 20-04-2018, 05:04:50
There is a batch file under tools that you just drag music onto. It will convert it into the right ogg-format.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: SgtAlex on 20-04-2018, 05:04:44
About the Nebel thing, I noticed the same thing with Katyusha, it acted like a light source and lighted all the buildings close to it, no need to lightmap, can be seen on editor, I supposed that kind of vehicles have actually a small light source that is activated when a rocket is fired, and editor recognise it and draw it as a light.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 20-04-2018, 12:04:48
Exactly. Dont lightmap with the gameplay layers on.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-04-2018, 18:04:13
I generated groundhemi. Glow is gone but vehicles look too dark now. How do I correct that?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 26-04-2018, 19:04:33
Well, you could lighten it, in GIMP or PS.
BTW, why don't you join Discord?  You would get quick answers to these basic questions.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-04-2018, 23:04:45
Alright, will do that in the near future.

The answer is that lately I haven´t had a lot of time for mapping. I actually spent my time watching documentaries and pictures to recreate the correct feel. I hope to have more time to finish the map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 27-04-2018, 00:04:13
I guess another thing you could do is temporarily change your lighting settings then generate the ground hemi.  You could use the "Day" preset.  Just don't save lighting settings when you are done.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 27-04-2018, 02:04:34
Ah that´s a neat idea. I will implement it and see what happens. Thanks!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-05-2018, 10:05:10
I haven´t had much time lately due to work... damn mapping takes time. Here goes some progress:

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 09-05-2018, 13:05:54
Looking good blander. The harsh spring sun is nice and realistic touch.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 09-05-2018, 14:05:30
All the new statics have not been lightmapped yet, that´s why they look like that.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 09-05-2018, 16:05:36
Well don't take me wrong, it looks pretty good   :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-05-2018, 15:05:32
Hello!

This is my goal: to make a Tiger I not able to move.

I will figure it out eventually but maybe if you can help me I can do it quicker.

1) Do I have to make a new object and name it something like "Static Tiger" and then add it to the map folder or is it possible to override a normal Tiger and just change its values for this specific map?

2) Is there a line in the code that I have to change to make the tank non-movable or is it more complicated?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: hitm4k3r on 19-05-2018, 20:05:38
In theory you only have do disable the driver seat of the vehicle pretty similar to how you disable the different seats for the non usable vehicles on objective maps. But keep in mind that you won't be able to have the same asset with driver and without a driver position on the same layer. I you want to have a static and a non static version on the same layer you will have to clone the tank obviously.

How you disable the seats/enterable positions is something that you can check out on allready existent objective maps in the mod ;)

If you need further assistence then let me know. Would check it out myself, but pretty low on time right now  ;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 19-05-2018, 22:05:41
Try something like this in tmp.con

Objecttemplate.activesafe PlayerControlObject Tiger(whatevernameithas)
Objecttemplate.activesafe Engine Tiger_Engine(whatevertheengineiscalled) (find out in the .tweak file of the tiger)
ObjectTemplate.setTorque 0
ObjectTemplate.setDifferential 0
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 20-05-2018, 15:05:59
Stubb's method works.  I tested it with:

Objecttemplate.activesafe PlayerControlObject tiger_late_132
Objecttemplate.activesafe Engine tiger_late_132_aaMotor
ObjectTemplate.setTorque 0
ObjectTemplate.setDifferential 0

at the bottom of the tmp.con.
You can still use the turret, which I assume is what you want.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 21-05-2018, 05:05:52
Awesome!

Now it just needs to be silent since the motor sounds still work.

Next step: the Pantherturm.

What would be the easiest and fastest way to make it? I´m thinking maybe I could immobilize a Panther, the same way the Tiger is. Then I could just bury it and enable Holdobject from the editor. The problem is that in the editor you cannot bury a tank, or at least it doesn´t go under ground visually.

I guess the hard way would be to strip off the whole hull bundle from the Panther, just leaving the turret. What do you recommend?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 21-05-2018, 11:05:06
The best way would be to re-export the thing with only the turret. Like seen on Omaha with the french turret.
It's perhaps possible to do some hacks other ways, but the above one would be the preferred way for sure.
Perhaps i can help with this later, but for testing just stick some static AT gun or something there for now. Or the french turret.

For the tiger, perhaps try to add some more lines from the engine into tmp.con, like maxspeed and such to 0 and see if that will get rid of the sounds.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Robbanswe48 on 29-05-2018, 21:05:38
If I can come with any suggestions:  :-*

Germans have class with including

- maybe shotgun (limited) Luftwaffen-Drilling M30
- Volkssturmgewehr 45
- Stg 44 (limited)

Soviets have class with

- STV 40

other than that it is really nice that folks are doing EF city maps, I want to make Breslau 45 or Warsaw 45 (when I have time and energy).

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 29-05-2018, 21:05:49
Why the SVT40?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Robbanswe48 on 29-05-2018, 22:05:27
Why the SVT40?

Why not? I thinking the germans will have best weapon they could get. Which mean the soviets should have pretty good weapons too. 400.000 G43's was produced in WW2 so why should SVT 40 be so rare? SVT 40 was produced in 1.400.000 during WW2. (source: wikipedia)

Overall the SVT 40 should be appearring more.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 29-05-2018, 23:05:47
But not in 1945. The SVT40 was mostly used in 1941 and 1942, after that is became progressively more rare. Instead they went with the PPsh41 / Mosin Nagant combo.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: SgtAlex on 30-05-2018, 15:05:41
Awesome!

Now it just needs to be silent since the motor sounds still work.

Next step: the Pantherturm.

What would be the easiest and fastest way to make it? I´m thinking maybe I could immobilize a Panther, the same way the Tiger is. Then I could just bury it and enable Holdobject from the editor. The problem is that in the editor you cannot bury a tank, or at least it doesn´t go under ground visually.

I guess the hard way would be to strip off the whole hull bundle from the Panther, just leaving the turret. What do you recommend?

About this, I think you could do the same as you did with the Tiger, just make a hole in the ground with the terrain editor, big enough to fit the Panther and as deep as its chassis height, leaving the turret out of the hole, then place some statics around the turret to hide the hole and the tank chasis, can be done with sandbags for example.
Finally, tweak it as you did with the Tiger to disable engine.

(https://orig00.deviantart.net/11e1/f/2011/342/5/4/02_panther_ostwallturm_by_wolfenkrieger-d4ii4ze.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 30-05-2018, 18:05:02
*Ahem* if you want to keep this realistic, turn off "power-assisted" turret traverse (the rotation speed was dependent on the engine RPM) - in both the Tiger and the Pantherturm.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 30-05-2018, 23:05:06
Robbanswe48:

Interesting choice for the music, I had this one in mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrVjtqx4MEc&index=45&list=PLbnRRNfFcoWdHL5wYorCswKRT4UtpUfh-

Volksturm and StG-44 will be included, dont´t think so about the SVT-40.

SgtAlex:

I thought about that solution but it just wouldn´t look good enough. Besides if I use objects to cover the Panther´s hull the colmeshes would collide causing trouble, most likely.

nysä:

Yes, I have it in mind!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-06-2018, 06:06:25
I just realised what a problem it can be to include artillery in an urban map. If someone spots for artillery with binoculars, the arty gunner will have a floating camera over the target. Problem is, the target could be close to an "empty" part of the map, which is not intended to be visible for the players.

I thought of 2 solutions for this:

1. Modify the spotter´s "floating" camera height. If I can get it low enough to avoid out of bounds areas to be seen by the arty gunner, that would solve the problem.

2. Get rid of arty.

Any oppinions?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 05-06-2018, 10:06:54
I don't really get what the problem is. Shooting off map can be avoided by checking the map as arty gunner. Do you mean spotting a high target next to an ABC line to circumvent the "no spot" dome on it?

1. The arty camera is directly connected to the target that the spotter marked. If that target is a high church tower, it will be marked high. Skilled spotters can use that knowledge by putting "high" targets for mortars and "low" ones for howitzers for maximum efficiency. I doubt that making it of fixed height would solve a lot of problems but it would definitely cause a lot of unnecessary ones like a lot of unusable spots and way less flexibility.

2. I like arty, as annoying as it can be on the receiving end. It's one of the last weapons that require a minimum of teamwork and communication in FH2 and I'd rather have it in, especially to deal with AT guns and the likes.

3. If you mean the ABC line abuse, a "dome" around the ABC line like PR has it could be an answer to that. To my knowledge, artillery and even airplane weaponry cannot pass through it if you're high enough but it won't stop the plane to fly through it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 05-06-2018, 15:06:42
I don't really get what the problem is.
He doesn't want the arty guy to see the edge of the map (usually it looks like something fluorescent green in my experience, it's very ugly).

@blander: best solution is not to use the map edges at all, make OOB at the edges and put the playable area far enough from the edges so that arty guys can't see it anymore. Build statics in the OOB anyway, so it doesn't look like the map "ends" where the OOB starts: this will also prevent arty guys from seeing anything weird when a scout misspots something.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 05-06-2018, 22:06:14
Oh okay, I never saw it except for back when I tried making maps for BF2 :P Seems like a minor annoyance, maybe getting rid of arty completely because of it is a bit harsh ;D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 06-06-2018, 05:06:40
The problem is not the map edge, it´s the OOB edge. If I had to cover all those with more statics to make them look "decent" from an arty gunner´s view then I would have to load the map with a TON more buildings, leading to excessive lag.

I guess I will have to test it. I will spot next to the OOBs on different areas of the map and see how the target looks from an arty asset. If testing suggests I will need to add 200 (my rough estimate) more statics then I will just get rid of arty.

Arty might just break gameplay after all, I think there is a reason for not having any arty asset in Battle of Brest for example. It´s a pity not to have any arty in Berlin because it was heavily used by the russians to destroy well-defended buildings.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Oberst on 06-06-2018, 16:06:41
Compare to Brest for instance. Mortar should still be available there.

From the art point of view it is important, that even from an infantry perspective the map not suddenly ends behind the next corner. Which may also require a few OOB buildings. This kills immersion.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 06-06-2018, 18:06:28
Look at Brest's OOB as that's the best way to do it while minimizing static use. It also has a mortar and I never see the OOB area with it. tbh I care less about what the arty gunner sees as it's more important that the other 99 players don't see the outside of the map.

If you can screenshot a problem area, maybe we can come up with more creative solutions.

tbh, arty on urban maps can be hell. At most you'd want to give it a mortar. You can give the Russians the 120mm, that packs plenty of punch. :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 06-06-2018, 18:06:29
Oh Brest has a mortar? Sorry, I didn´t notice that. But still, I thought about it thoroughly. I don´t want the gameplay to be broken. I think the first version will have no artillery. If balance adjustments are required after testing in a full server then we could try adding a mortar or some rocket launchers.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 06-06-2018, 20:06:40
I'm pretty sure only mortars would work on that map.  The trajectory of the other arty would be useless with all those building.  You can still use the Wespe and SU 152 as point and shoot arty.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 07-06-2018, 09:06:01
Mortars on Brest can be highly devastating for sure, especially on highly populated servers. Then again on a map with so much bottlenecks it would be unwise to remove it completely because it can be already tough enough to break through a line of several refilling squads. I think limiting it to one mortar is good because that limits the terror and also still gives the defenders a bit of room to create defences.

GeoPat is right, howitzers and Katyushas will only lead to mass TK because your shells land anywhere but where you aimed at, leading to frustration of the users and the random victims. Some of the CMP maps suffer from this issue.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 07-06-2018, 21:06:12
The problem is not the map edge, it´s the OOB edge.
OK, that's a bit less of a problem then: just paint terrain there, don't place any statics if not necessary for the vew of the other 99 players. That way the arty gunner will just know that it is a useless spot he is looking at because he doesn't see the city anymore. I don't think you will get many complaints about that, it is actually helpful :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-06-2018, 12:06:52
U-Bahn WIP

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-06-2018, 15:06:54
Cool, is it just for show or can you also go and fight underground?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 12-06-2018, 18:06:43
I thought of it. I also thought about an underground bunker but in the end it wouldn´t work as a flag to fight for. 40 players in such a constrained space wouldn´t be fun so it´s just for the looks. Who knows, maybe in a future version (balance adjustments will be needed for sure) I could replace one of the flags with an underground layout.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 12-06-2018, 18:06:39
OK, fair enough. I think it could work, just look at the airfield building on Sidi Rezegh, it has an underground flagzone as well. But I can imagine that it brings several problems with it if you expand underground :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 13-06-2018, 12:06:58
howitzers and Katyushas will only lead to mass TK because your shells land anywhere but where you aimed at, leading to frustration of the users and the random victims. Some of the CMP maps suffer from this issue.

On the other hand, isn't this quite realistic? Even mainstream historians such as Anthony Beevor estimate that possibly as many as 40% of Russian casualties were caused by their own artillery fire.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 14-06-2018, 09:06:36
Heh, yes, it might be but it will not be fun in any way and people will get kicked from the server because of it. Besides, most of the FH gameplay is far from realistic but feels more like arcade with a hardcore damage model which makes it both unique and fun or frustrating; depends on the day, really ;D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-07-2018, 09:07:14
How do you draw tank tracks on the ground? Is it with the road tool? I don´t know how to use that.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-07-2018, 11:07:55

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 16-07-2018, 14:07:55
Looking good,I'm getting the imprtession that this map is HUGE. Can't wait to test it out :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 16-07-2018, 15:07:14
Sweet! How's the progress with the Pantherturm?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 16-07-2018, 16:07:15
tracks is with a road tool yea. you just need to find the right mesh
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 16-07-2018, 18:07:52
Texture load on this map is going to be ridiculous.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-07-2018, 20:07:09
It became much bigger than I expected, I hope that contributes for a new gameplay feel.

I have not worked on the Pantherturm yet. I started to realise how big the map is when I started to add detail. It takes a lot longer than I thought.

I´ll try to figure out the road tool and if I fail I will ask for help, thanks!

The map doesn´t take too much to load right now. Will that change when I paint all the OOBs? Or do the lightmaps make the loading longer?

To be realistic I guess I will be finishing this map by Christmass.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 16-07-2018, 22:07:00
If you really think it's too big, then don't be afraid to cut parts out. You don't have to delete those, just don't include them in the gameplay area. This will give you the opportunity to lower the texture load, add more closed instead of open buildings in those areas and thus improve the performance.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-07-2018, 02:07:08
When I was working on one of the last flags, specially on the underground bunker which was going to be a spawn point, the editor crashed and I lost all the work of the day. I´m still pissed about it so I might go ahead and just remove all that sector, including the flag.

So yeah, I will probably go with your suggestion Slayer. You just saved me like an extra month of work hehe.

But still, it is a big map. I didn´t want it to be a new Battle of Brest. There are plenty tanks and lots of space for tactics and flanking, not a straight forward meat grinder like Ramelle.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 17-07-2018, 03:07:01
You definitely want to make sure you optimize your map as best you can. Some things to look out for off the top of my head;

Texture Load: make sure not to load too many or necessary textures. For example, if you have a 'Normandy' camouflaged panther, don't also use the 'Autumn' camouflaged panther. This makes the game load 2 textures for the same tank and eats memory. Same goes for other things like Pak40s, 88s cars, trucks halftracks w/e.

Open Buildings: make sure not to use too many of them. They eat a lot of memory and require more power to render since they have more polygons and textures to load. Stick to placing open buildings in important places like flag zones or if you need a player to move through them to get to a certain area etc... leave the rest of the areas as closed buildings.

Not to mention that you need to fill them with furniture etc... to make them look good, which adds to the static count.

Unique Objects & Static Objects: Afaik it's good practice to keep you object count low. In the Level Editor, if you look on the bottom bar, there should be a "Level Info" button that will show you specific things about your map. Unique objects are something to keep an eye on since each object typically loads a new texture sheet which loads more memory etc... also the total static object count. I think some of the higher counts I've seen are ~6000 static objects in total. Just good to keep an eye on.

View Distance: Obviously with a city map, you shouldn't need a gigantic view distance. I think a lower view distance will help keep people's frame up because the map doesn't need to render the objects it doesn't see etc...

Just things to keep in mind :) more experienced mappers could have other tips.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-07-2018, 05:07:51
Interesting tips!

Right now there are 5605 static objects. I plan on adding more little objects, so in return i will make the playable area smaller and thus delete many buildings.

About the Panther example, I plan on having 2 different Panther textures, one of them being new (if I have enough time to make it). Same goes for other vehicles. I also want to clone some buildings to have 2 different textures for the same building on the same map. Keep in mind this map is (I think) the biggest city map made for FH2 and it´s hard to make sectors look different since there is a limited number of buildings to choose from.

Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.

There are long streets and lots of tanks and AT guns on the map. I tryied to keep the view distance at a point were PC performance is not crushed and tanks keep a high value.

All kinds of tips and suggestions are welcome, lets all make this a great new map!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 17-07-2018, 20:07:44
About the Panther example, I plan on having 2 different Panther textures, one of them being new (if I have enough time to make it). Same goes for other vehicles.

Curious, what type of texture you are planning to make?
This map could really use a late (standardized) factory camouflages on some of the vehicles, like a generic MAN factory cam on the Panther Ausf G or Alkett factory camo on the StuG III Ausf G (if there is one).
Dot and disc camos were mostly experimental, used only for a brief production period only.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 17-07-2018, 21:07:54
Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.
Try to avoid this as much as possible, because even if you close it off, the textures of the interior will be loaded anyway.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-07-2018, 21:07:32
Pz.Kpfw. V Panther Ausf. G, coded “333”, of 5th Panzer Battalion, 25th Panzer Grenadier Division; area east of Berlin, April 1945. [Painted by Arkadiusz Wróbel]

(http://www.kagero.pl/images/nicewatermark/occnvai23901-pz-kpfw-v-panthercati101iti705limitstart2-27_tc01shopkager8.jpg)

I plan on having a KT, 2 Panthers and 1 Jagdpanzer IV L/70 on the map. If you have any interesting pictures with cammo patterns suited for Berlin please let me know. I also want to change the markings on soviet tanks, that´s much easier to do.

Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.
Try to avoid this as much as possible, because even if you close it off, the textures of the interior will be loaded anyway.

Yesterday I removed lots of buildings to reduce the gameplay area. If that´s not enough then I will remove more open buildings. Is there a way to know if the CPU usage is correct for the map?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 17-07-2018, 22:07:21
Just some advice from my experience of being a tester and hearing mappers talk about the problems they've faced.

I plan on having 2 different Panther textures, one of them being new (if I have enough time to make it). Same goes for other vehicles.

I would just keep it to one for now. You can use a placeholder (like the Normandy one or w/e) and reskin that one with the new texture after the map is complete. IF you have the space after the map is finished you can add a 2nd panther texture. Changing the types of vehicles is always relatively easy to do even after the map is complete.

It's really cool for tanks to have slightly different camos and vehicle numbers like irl. But tbh, people don't really notice that stuff in the heat of battle. Overall the memory that is saves is more beneficial than the 'aesthetic' factor.

Quote
I also want to clone some buildings to have 2 different textures for the same building on the same map. Keep in mind this map is (I think) the biggest city map made for FH2 and it´s hard to make sectors look different since there is a limited number of buildings to choose from.

Same advice as above. It's best right now to keep the building's textures the same so you don't load too many at once. IF you have memory left over after the map is finished and the areas still look too repetitive, then I'd look into re-skinning it.

Lots of games re-use assets throughout a map to save memory. The trick is spreading out the similar buildings so the player doesn't encounter them in the same view. The important places are flag areas where players will generally spend most of their time. That's where you can utilize the unique statics so no two flag zones look the same.

If you have two areas with the same set of buildings in them. I would try a different approach of making the details different first; i.e. re-ordering the buildings so they're not in the same order. Making the street scene different (different debris in the road, lay out the cover differently etc...) so the player can't automatically tell that the same buildings are used.

It's definitely one of the tougher parts of urban mapping, but if you show some problem areas. We could certainly take a look and make some suggestions. :)

Quote
Same goes for open buildings. Some times I did not intend to place open buildings but some are unique (they don´t come in closed version) so that forces me to close them with wood planks and stuff like that.

Like Slayer said, I would look for other statics to fill that area. If you simply close off an open building, the textures inside that building will still be loaded and the lightmaps will still be generated for an area that a player can't access. If you want to go really hardcore, you could make a closed version of that static after the map is done. But that seems unnecessary, since most times you can just find other statics to take it's place.

Panther texture is nice. 8) In my experience I would just worry about vehicle textures last. If the map is well optimized and has good gameplay, someone maybe able to save you the trouble of re-skinning a tank from scratch. Overall, you want to have a strong map that plays well and runs well on everyone's computer so it can be played for many years to come. :D

EDIT:
Also, pretty sure Toddel made the Panther texture in a clever way so that it can have two different sets of turret numbers on the same map. Best to save that till the end.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 18-07-2018, 07:07:40
I plan on having a KT, 2 Panthers and 1 Jagdpanzer IV L/70 on the map. If you have any interesting pictures with cammo patterns suited for Berlin please let me know.

Panthers fighting in the Berlin area were mainly with MAN factory camo, but naturally other variants existed as well (few Ausf Ds were also there):

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2z5t5yf.jpg)

For more accurate tones: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/f8/ea/b6f8ea46cae2be5e95a0ebc726d0ff66.jpg

Panzer IV/70 photographed in Berlin had fairly soft edged camo, similar to this (w. dominant olive green):
(http://i68.tinypic.com/347aepx.jpg)

Overall, I would suggest dominant dark brown and olive green with some "dark yellow" stripes.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 18-07-2018, 08:07:39
Alright, I´ve taken all tips into consideration.

I´ve shrinken the gameplay area once again and moved the flags closer together. I also replaced lots of open buildings with closed variants and removed excessive small objects that are too far from flagzones.

I´d really like to have the map out when the CMP maps get updated and back into play. In that case I will have to skip all the reskining work for the time being. It could be done in a future patch though, along with other fixes.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-08-2018, 10:08:59
Does any vehicle or gun in FH2 have a sound that could fit for the manually-traversed turrets from the Pantherturm and Tiger? Or should it be completely silent?

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 02-08-2018, 13:08:14
Does any vehicle or gun in FH2 have a sound that could fit for the manually-traversed turrets from the Pantherturm and Tiger? Or should it be completely silent?
Panzer III, dunno if all models, but at least some of them definitely have the hand cranked manually traversed turrets.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 02-08-2018, 13:08:32
Edit: like jan_kurator already pointed out, Pz III seems to have rather decent manual traverse sound f/x.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-08-2018, 07:08:26
I removed the engine sounds and corrected the turret traverse speed and sound.

I failed though to make the whole tank behave properly. Even though I managed to sink it underground, the whole tank will pop up on ground level for a second after being shaked by a shot or even a grenade exploding close to it, after that the tank will sink back to it´s original position.

I tried to fix that but I failed. Besides I don´t think it´s possible to remove things like the top MG, hull MG and passenger seats without having to create a whole new player controlled object, which I can´t do because I lack the knowledge and it would take me too much time to learn.

Unless someone can give me a hint on coding, I plan on having a static panther instead, just like the Tiger. I would not be able to sink it under the ground like I did in the previous screenshot though I could protect it with some rubble. It would not look as cool (and new) as a Pantherturm though I guess.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 04-08-2018, 11:08:43
I wouldn't worry about it. There were actually few dug in Panthers in Berlin area - basically gutted out Panthers, originally sent back for factory overhaul or rebuild.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/4uuo1s.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/29/f8/2b29f820bc0c4de01348bc43d5221728.jpg)

Regarding removing the cupola MG, maybe you could try panther_g_ard_alt or panthera_late_alt ??

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 04-08-2018, 18:08:15
For what you are trying to do Blander, it is best to make a "clone".  Then you can change just about everything you want.  I did that for the campaign.  It's pretty easy.

You just give a new name to the .con, tweak, and bundlemesh.  Edit the con and tweak "replace all" the old name with the new name.  Find everywhere it says collisionmesh in the con and tweak and give it the old name there(because you don't rename the collisionmesh).

Then try to figure out all the values to change or delete.  Maybe look at the that turret gun on Omaha.  Get rid of every thing it doesn't have.

The best thing about a clone is that you can have the real tank and your clone on the same map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-08-2018, 20:08:15
I tried to clone it but it seems the collisionmesh of the hull behaves buggy when dug in. I was not able to remove it. I checked the turret gun on Omaha but it´s different from the real tank´s geometry, the mesh file is different. I basically tried to strip off the hull entirely but I failed.

Long story short, I don´t want to waste more time on this so I´ll go for this setup, which is much easier to achieve:

(http://i63.tinypic.com/4uuo1s.jpg)

You are right nysä, panthera_late_alt has no cupola MG, I´ll use that one.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 06-08-2018, 12:08:08
I´ve been trying to figure out how to create .ogg files for the map but I cannot follow instructions because tutorials are very old with outdates links. Where can I find all the sound tools and info I need?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-08-2018, 10:08:50
The total object count went up to 6300 so I shrunk the gameplay area once again to cut off the object count. My goal is to finish the map under 6000 objects. Added a new flag for less walking and more action (the map is still big). Also redid all russian tank spawns so they gradually spawn closer to the frontline, eliminating the previous spawners, like it was done in Ogledow.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Wilhelm on 19-08-2018, 16:08:32
Looking good!  ;D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 19-08-2018, 16:08:06
Screens are looking nice. The real bread and butter is when you show the overview minimap/ layout.

I'm glad you're still working on this and that it's coming along! :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 19-08-2018, 16:08:56

Im still hoping at some point you would consider porting over the Reichstag static from FHSW map "Fall Of Berlin" to use in your map as a centerpiece.

I envision a push map starting with flags on the exterior of Berlin, ending at the Reichstag........one can dream.

Keep up the good work soldier!
8)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Seth_Soldier on 19-08-2018, 17:08:11
It looks good.
Remember to test gameplay too.

About ambiance, imo you should go for a dark and high smoke map but not the night. More like a burning city feeling.
Something like cod waw berlin and FH1 berlin streets
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 19-08-2018, 18:08:11
Looking good indeed! I agree with Seth about the atmosphere, it looks a bit too bright still, but maybe that also has to do with lightmapping. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 19-08-2018, 22:08:38
Oh wow, I didn't see the minimap before :). Just some more comments;

There are some parts that seem very narrow for 100 players (like the approaches to Ruins/ Yard & Boulevard). They might not be, but just keep in mind that you don't want to create too many hardcore bottlenecks. The result is something like Brest where American's can't push past the mob of defenders and it ends up as Op Metro. I count 3 main streets to the Yard/ Ruins sector but as long as the blocks in between have many places to cross between each road/ even push the flags it should be ok. :)

As long as there's multiple routes to attack a flag so player density isn't too high.

I'm not sure how the sectors work (I'm counting 5 or 6?) but it looks like they have nice progression and each sector is distinct and separate on the minimap. I wouldn't add any more sectors as this seems like enough.

Curious to see how it plays! :D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 21-08-2018, 13:08:02
I would have liked to create a more ruined city but there's a lack of destroyed statics. I placed as many as I could without being too repetitive.

The lightmap will be created when I finish adding small objects. I saved the lightmap settings I liked after days of testing, it is not nearly as dark and grim as the FH1 version, that one seemed really exagerated imo.

I checked the FHSW map and it was made in 1:1 scale apparently. That would make it impossible to combine the city's outskirts and the Reichstag obviously. Even if I managed to impot the Reichstag in the future I would save it for a 1:1 scaled map like FHSW, even though the surrounding statics would not look appropiate and if I am not mistaken the Reichstag model is closed, it has no interior to fight for.

Any changes are welcome though, even if they are major, as long as they enrich the map since I guess no one else will ever make another Berlin map for this mod (I hope I'm wrong).

1. Ruins / Yard

It was briefely tested with about 12 players, I like how it did. That is all the map testing I got and will ever get, at least from CMP. The 3 streets are connected. I added a fourth one and then I removed it. Russians start off with 4 tanks, that should be enough to break through eventually. Germans only have a pair of static AT guns.

2. Hospital / Supply Dump

Approaches are very open. Germans have 3 static guns and 2  tanks. Russians get 7 tanks.

3. Boulevard

Recently added to link up with the next sector. It should mainly serve as a spawn point for the russians. It's very open and easy to take with superior tank numbers.

4. Square / Altona

Wide, long and open streets. Little cover, long range engagements. Tank dominance. 4 german tanks along with 2 immobilized used as pillboxes. Russians get 9 tanks. I expect this sector to be the defining one, it's hard to capture.

5. Last flags

Short range engagements. Even though bloody, I expect the russians to end it quickly because they are close to eachother and close to Altona. In short, a very action packed ending, no more than 5 mins.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 21-08-2018, 19:08:32
Well I'm glad someone's attempting one. :) I know there's not a lot of statics to choose from, but that could always be changed by some eager modelers or texture work. All that's important right now is that it plays well imo, the aesthetic stuff could come later.

All those tanks seem like a lot for urban combat, since there's only a few routes for them to move. Hopefully it won't create too much explosive spam. That seems to be the biggest issue with urban maps.

It's nice that you got to test it with CMP, that's huge. it would be nice to test it on a pub server with proper player amounts. Maybe when the updated version of the CMP is complete, we could hold a few days of testing on it.

What do you plan on doing with the map in the future?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 22-08-2018, 02:08:02
There are a lot of tanks, yes. The soviets fielded lots of armor for this battle so I think it's fine. For example I hate to play Tobruk as allies because of the constant deaths to enemy artillery. But hey, if the real battle was like that then I respect it.

I carefully placed open buildings and cover for the german AT infantry to hide in. Besides, there are plenty AT guns, it's not like every soviet tank will be alive all the time through the whole map.

Right now I'd say 90% of the map is complete. Little things are missing like cables, ambient sounds, french sign textures need to be replaced, lightmap, combat area, etc.

My goal is to have the map incorporated into the CMP pool. Tournament usage has been taken out of the question because it's a straight forward push map.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-09-2018, 08:09:31

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: |7th|Nighthawk on 03-09-2018, 09:09:47
Looks quite good to me but I have a few observations to make: The rooms look a little empty at times and seem too orderly (There are a lot of 90° and 45° angles here) and I would assume that some of the places were left in a hurry - like that bar/restaurant e.g. or even if not, you would rarely see such perfection. That makeshift hospital nails that better in my opinion but you could maybe spice it up even more with the beds. I take it that you're conservative with the objects to keep the performance high?
Anyway, it's cool to see the WIPs :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 03-09-2018, 09:09:49
Looks promising! Another suggestion, the walls could use some random morale scribbles like "Berlin bleibt deutsch", as seen in the Seelow Heights. And perhaps some bicycles?

(https://berlinshots.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/sam_8914.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-09-2018, 09:09:08
I´m worried about performance. I don´t know the details about CPU usage limit and stuff like that. In general I try to copy the object saturation from other maps. I´d like to add a ton of details (and I had) but I chose to remove hundreds of objects to have 6000 max in total.

I am kind of measuring the performance with the FPS since my computer is old and it goes up and down considerably depending on the static objects´ saturation. FPS drop at the hospital area so I´m only adding what is 100% necessary.

What parameter should I take into consideration to know if the amount of statics I´m placing is within acceptable limits?

I´ll stuff up those rooms a bit more and give them a more chaotic feel.

I added a lot more smoke columns everywhere. Do they consume too much memory? Should I be careful with that or is it acceptable to have lots of smoke around all the map?

Quote
Looks promising! Another suggestion, the walls could use some random morale scribbles like "Berlin bleibt deutsch", as seen in the Seelow Heights. And perhaps some bicycles?

I used 2 or 3 from Seelow already and I plan on having at least 1 new one. I might ask for suggestions here when I get to that phase. I also gathered lots of signs from different maps to have them re-textured to "Friseur", "Lebensmittel-Geschäft", "Brauerei", "Apotheke", "Hotel-Pension" etc. The bar will have a Fanta ad.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 03-09-2018, 10:09:26
I used 2 or 3 from Seelow already and I plan on having at least 1 new one. I might ask for suggestions here when I get to that phase. I also gathered lots of signs from different maps to have them re-textured to "Friseur", "Lebensmittel-Geschäft", "Brauerei", "Apotheke", "Hotel-Pension" etc. The bar will have a Fanta ad.

Great. "Lieber tot als Sklave" was also another endkampf slogan, also found on Berlin Zoo Bunker
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 03-09-2018, 17:09:35
I´m worried about performance. I don´t know the details about CPU usage limit and stuff like that. In general I try to copy the object saturation from other maps. I´d like to add a ton of details (and I had) but I chose to remove hundreds of objects to have 6000 max in total.

I am kind of measuring the performance with the FPS since my computer is old and it goes up and down considerably depending on the static objects´ saturation. FPS drop at the hospital area so I´m only adding what is 100% necessary.

Measuring your own FPS is good. Also, I think you can alt tab with the map open and open task manager to see how much ram it uses. Around 2GB is the upper limit. (I think)

Quote
What parameter should I take into consideration to know if the amount of statics I´m placing is within acceptable limits?

Personally I’d crack open Seelow and try to keep static count around the same as that map.

Quote
I added a lot more smoke columns everywhere. Do they consume too much memory? Should I be careful with that or is it acceptable to have lots of smoke around all the map?

AFAIK smoke can cause FPS drops more than most things.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-10-2018, 06:10:09
The map is crashing at 14%.

I checked and double-checked the map crash percentages thread but I failed to find a solution.

I tried deleting gameplayobjects.con and staticobjects.con, among other things, but that didn´t fix it. In one of the ocations I had a memory error message, I don´t remember what it said exactly.

I really don´t know what else to try. I took a break from working on this map 15 days ago so now I don´t remember exactly what was the last thing I did to the map that could be causing this problem. I added a few more static objects, that´s for sure, but I think that wouldn´t be the reason of this crash.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 02-10-2018, 13:10:47
Probably overgrowth.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-10-2018, 21:10:45
It has no overgrowth, only static trees and undergrowth. How can I discard possibilities?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-10-2018, 09:10:26
Fixed. The secondary terrain was corrupted.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FiveStars on 25-10-2018, 16:10:40
Wonderful project! I don't really know the capabilities of your mapping, but if it turns out well enough, it could be in FH 2.55 or 2.6  ;D. A few pointers anyway: The FHSW Reichstag's is open AFAIK, and it would make a very good separate map, maybe even the fhurer bunker there could be incorporated. I would guess, although I may be wrong, there may be some devs who could lease a helping hand  ;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-10-2018, 03:10:37
The map will come out in the community map pack, not an official FH2 update. I´m relatively new to mapping so I don´t know how to port stuff from FHSW.

After the map is released I will work on a balance patch and I will try to finish some half-done statics to add more unique content for the map (there are a couple of previously unused buildings already). I´m delighted to have the new ISU-152 and ISU-122 available right in time before finishing the map, I will definately add them.

Since it´s the first map I make, I lost a lot of time figuring things out and re-doing and improving things over and over again. Right now I´m adressing minor aesthetic details, the gameplay work is complete.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 26-10-2018, 18:10:23
I´m delighted to have the new ISU-152 and ISU-122 available right in time before finishing the map, I will definately add them.
Don't. Just use the ISU-152 with the DShK (a proper variant for the Battle of Berlin) and avoid using too many vehicles of different types for no reason. Those affect map performance.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FiveStars on 26-10-2018, 19:10:59
Don't. Just use the ISU-152 with the DShK (a proper variant for the Battle of Berlin) and avoid using too many vehicles of different types for no reason. Those affect map performance.
I agree. Plus the DSHK ISU-152 version will be a perfect addition, both as an assault gun, and a heavy IFV
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 28-10-2018, 21:10:50
Wow  nice project. Where do you get time for this level of detail to do  :D :D And plus that old computer, I know how shit it can be to work with

Would like to see more pic, and some from sky to see how big it would be on end.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-10-2018, 09:10:13

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: FiveStars on 31-10-2018, 10:10:39
I think Flippy or Jan said this, but it would be better to have the DSHK version of the ISU
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 31-10-2018, 10:10:26
Yeah, I didn´t really pay attention when I selected it. I´m hoping to finish placing statics soon so I can do the lightmap.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Knochenlutscher on 01-11-2018, 15:11:00
My grandpa was wounded in Seelow, then taken to Lazaret in Müncheberg.
End of April 1945 he received leave and should assign at new Service.
Which he didn't instead walked to Berlin by Foot.
Throwing away the new postings, he made his way to his parents flat
in Charlottenburg, right in time when Berlin was under Siege.
I know he went there via Straussberg and Pankow
through thin opened corridors. He slept 1 day at his Aunt in Pankow and continued his way
to Charlottenburg.
There where either ruins or in the intact houses 2 types of flats,
completely housed/closed flats or robbed out/opened.
At the beginning of WW2 Closed flats where of the inhabitants
flew outside Berlin and the remaining Neighbours quickly opened and emptied these
(robbery,vandalizing) in the late war era. My grandpa caught the neighbours in act doing so
at my great grandparents flat, who lived near Borgsdorf in their Gardenresidence.
He mocked away the neighbours and recollected every piece from the street, floor building
and out of the hands of the neighbours he could get. All familly values, Meißner Porcelaine,
was stolen. That was high life in wartime Berlin.

Apart from the battledamage/bombing etc., my grandpa told me, his Berlin was a trash dump,
litter everywhere. Only small areas kept buisilly clean, like the neighbourhouse at Kaminerstr.
where a 90 year old chap cleaned the yard in daily manner. The rest, nobody seemed to care,
maybe they ate the broomsticks or fired it at each other while stealing stuff...
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 01-11-2018, 20:11:27
That´s sad to hear. From the pictures I´ve seen the city was quite littered as you say. The problem is that I´m at the limit of static objects I can place. I´m not sure wether performance will be good. I´d like to release the map with 6000 statics. If it proves to be unstable I will have to remove statics up to the point where it becomes playable.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Knochenlutscher on 01-11-2018, 22:11:46
All good, I'm following your Map works with eager patience.
I like the effort you put through and how you think about
getting us some specialties, like the dugin tanks and barricades.
I'm sure it's worth it's stand.
Keep up the good job
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 02-11-2018, 11:11:23
If you ever got the time, I'd recommend doing little mashup on the Tiger I.
This would require some modelling & texturing skills, but basically what you need is an early chassis with a turret from the late production. The chassis from "DAK Tiger" would do great, if you have skills to remove the Feifel air filters + the non-standard mudguards, exhaust heat shields, headlights. This would actually represent very typical Tiger I in 1945, since the last 50+ were produced from recycled early chassis' with upgraded/rebuild turret...

The only unit that had few late production Tigers left (after January '45) was Panzer-Abteilung (Funklenk) 301, but their battles ended in Ruhr (sources: "Tigers in Combat" by W. Schneider and "Germany's Tiger Tanks: D.W. to Tiger I" by Jentz & Doyle)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-11-2018, 18:11:54
That´s interesting though way too complicated for my knowledge. The next thing I want to try is bringing back to life the old Pavlov´s house from FH1. It´s in the test folder from static objects. It´s missing the LODs. I´ll try to create those once the map is released. If I ever get to fix the building I will add it to the map, replacing other generic houses.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-11-2018, 10:11:25
Testing some textures

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Yakovlev on 04-11-2018, 00:11:17
Great effort man i wish you all the best with your project !!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 04-11-2018, 01:11:35
I think the Friseur looks OK, the others are waiting for some imporvement: the letters look pretty fake on the buildings. I know this is hard to get right, but as it is this is a bit of an mmersion killer, not in the least because of the font type you chose (esp Apotheke should be in different letters imo).
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 04-11-2018, 10:11:10
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/1023/10239444.jpg)(http://www.sampor.de/assets/images/alles-aus-papier/ansichtskarten/berlin/ak_kuchen_kaiser_01.jpg) (https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/konditorei-und-cafe-in-der-nrnberger-strasse-das-russische-john-picture-id542359113) (http://www.ansichtskarten-center.de/webshop/shop/ProdukteBilder/16824/AK_13411663_gr_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Tyler on 04-11-2018, 15:11:15
Screens are looking good!

Overall, I would suggest to add some sandbags,crates,barrels,etc in this area near to the Control Point.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 04-11-2018, 16:11:16
Have you tried a playtest with the CMP guys yet? Very curious to know how this plays on a pub server. :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-11-2018, 17:11:19
That was my first attempt. I accidentially deleted the alpha channel, that´s why some signs don´t blend properly. They have detail but it doesn´t show in the screenshots due to the lacking lightmap.

I´m loving those pictures, very helpful. I still got plenty signs to make.

Yes, I added more objects everywhere. Keep in mind I try to stay at the bare minimum for the first release.

We only tested it with around 15 people many months ago. I haven´t had another chance since then.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 04-11-2018, 17:11:55
think it could be ready for their next CMP pack? I'd like it to be polished before it's in the public rotation tbh, but I would like to try it
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 04-11-2018, 17:11:00
OK, so they will loook better when lightmaps are final, I guess.

Looking forward to play this, so when a playtest comes up, please post in here :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 04-11-2018, 21:11:55
Can say one suggestion, instead of Katyusa it would be cool to take M30 122mm and make it mobile . Then infantry can push it around for point blank arty support like in real life. I mean, there is already lot of tanks but thats just instead of Katyusa if you plan to put it.

Or it would be nice for Germans, as their artilery in city did last stand, to place one movable LeFh105 . That would be used to support defense as they dont have much tanks. Disable that look-from-air that arty usualy has so it can just fire at point blank direct fire. And make it from third sector avaible. Take code from Pak or some other movable gun. And as its slow, germans will need to place it clever and retreat when too close to enemy.

Just something I taught as I looked some videos of battle of berlin.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-11-2018, 23:11:07
It´s taking a lot more time than I expected. I doubt it will be ready in a month.

I removed all artillery. It just doesn´t fit the map. It would be different if buildings were destroyable. I did place a towable pak40 to make the defence a bit more dynamic.

Changes and improvements of course are welcome once the map is tested with the current assets.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 14-11-2018, 05:11:27
Almost ready to do the final lightmaps. Next step: textures.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 14-11-2018, 09:11:11
Really nice work with the street blocks, overall rubble.
Not sure if I remember wrong, but isn't there a industrial cabel reel in the static objects? Just a thought, since these were quite commonly seen laying around on the urban battlefields

Anyway, cannot wait until the map is ready and online.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 14-11-2018, 12:11:43
Yes, I used all the cable reel variants, in fact one shows in one of the screenshots. Not many are around though I´m at 6254 objects right now, a little over expected.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 14-11-2018, 12:11:49
How many different static types, ie. unique statics, are you at?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 14-11-2018, 20:11:30
First: Really nice and detailed map blander! Very good looking and I hope to see minimap soon.  ;)

Almost ready to do the final lightmaps. Next step: textures.

Second: Is that some magic code that made towable guns working????  :o
Or is that staged as towing?
Or is towing working less laggy if its driving over good terrain?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 15-11-2018, 00:11:57
Looking good so far.

Just wondering blander will the street layouts historically accurate or no?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-11-2018, 05:11:39
Static objects: 6254
Unique objects: 524
Mesh memory: 3547275 kb

I posted a minimap screen earlier. It hasn´t changed a lot since then, just cosmethics.

That towable PAK40 became available since the last patch if I remember correctly. It works fairly well on the map, maybe because it´s all flat, except for the rubble.

The street layouts are not historically accurate at all. I just made a mix of many reference pictures and tried to create different gameplay possibilities across the different sectors of the map. In short, many areas of the map are "based" on real pictures, the rest are completely fictional.

Copying a real place in a 1:1 scale would have been bad because:

1. Inappropiate statics
2. Limited gameplay possibilities
3. Lack of mapping skills
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: LuckyOne on 15-11-2018, 07:11:32

That towable PAK40 became available since the last patch if I remember correctly.

Wait, what? I thought the consensus was that it can't be done at all! :O

Anyway nice map, can't wait to see it finished!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 15-11-2018, 16:11:49
We don’t have towable Pak40s
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 15-11-2018, 16:11:03
524 unique objects is "a bit" rough.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 15-11-2018, 16:11:07
Well, the towable PAK works. Perhaps it´s CMP´s?

Unique objects number can be decreased, for sure. Total number of statics too. Lets see what the performance is like first.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: GeoPat on 17-11-2018, 07:11:32
The towable pak is in FH2.  It's just not on a map maybe.

fh2\objects_vehicles_server.zip\Vehicles\Land\DE\sdkfz7\sdkfz7_pak40

I think there is a Bedford QLT with a 6 pdr in its bed too.  They've both been there for years.

IIRC they are less buggy than most CMP stuff but maybe too buggy for FH2 to actually put it on a map.
MAybe they were on Aberdeen or some other discontinued map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 17-11-2018, 15:11:26

The street layouts are not historically accurate at all. I just made a mix of many reference pictures and tried to create different gameplay possibilities across the different sectors of the map. In short, many areas of the map are "based" on real pictures, the rest are completely fictional.

Copying a real place in a 1:1 scale would have been bad because:

1. Inappropiate statics
2. Limited gameplay possibilities
3. Lack of mapping skills

Yeah i see what you mean. Due to the enormous size of the city of Berlin, i always envisioned a map based off a sector of Berlin, say "The Brandenburg Gate" area.

(https://venets.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/d9a7e-berlin2bat2bthe2bend2bof2bthe2bwar2bin2b19452b1.jpg)

However im sure nobody in ANY gaming community has ever made a static of the gate.

;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 24-11-2018, 04:11:48
I tried to lightmap on low quality. It worked on half of the objects and then crashed. I tried to resume the lightmapping but it crashes. These are the last debug lines before crashing:

D:\bf2editor\Code\BF2\RendDX9\TextureManager.cpp(471): Failed to create dx texture. Created from code. Invalid call
Creation parameters:
Width: 2
Height: 2
Depth: 1
Format: D3DFMT_DXT1
Miplevels: 0
Usage: 0
D:\bf2editor\Code\BF2\Geom\LightmapGeneration\MeshLightSampling.cpp(162): Failed to create conversion texture

How can I find the problem?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 25-11-2018, 10:11:01
We will probably have a playtest on a russian server next sunday 19:00 UTC.

I will make some sort of announcement with a download link for anyone that wants to join.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 25-11-2018, 13:11:08
ok
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-11-2018, 22:11:19
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 26-11-2018, 23:11:54
Hey I made those lightposts :D

was that the buggy lightmap culprit?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-11-2018, 23:11:35
Yeah? They are great. Haven´t they been used in a map before?

I changed a bit that pacific building´s texture to make it somewhat different. Still a WIP.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: fighterpil on 26-11-2018, 23:11:47
Looking great! I'm assuming the lighting will be added on later when the map is finished?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 27-11-2018, 02:11:59
I´m struggling with lightmaps at the moment. That´s why I want to have a playtest, to make sure all statics are final so I can focus heavily on fixing lightmap problems and forget about adding/removing/moving statics.

Once that is done I´ll work on textures and sounds. I guess the map will be finished around january/february.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 30-11-2018, 01:11:22

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 30-11-2018, 10:11:52
Great work blander, looks very götterdämmerung-ish.

Not sure about the Tiger II texture tho?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-11-2018, 13:11:23
Yeah, German vehicles should use the ambush style of camo scheme, the same Seelow Heights use.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 01-12-2018, 19:12:57
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21860.0
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 02-12-2018, 13:12:40
Couldn't resist testing it out. Floating objects here and there, but so far so good. Actually, quite suprised how smoothly it ran on my rather outdated system. Great work on the dug-in tanks, they really add authenticity and I like the random but convenient pickup kits left on the streets.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-12-2018, 17:12:09
I´ll address the KT texture later, noted. Yes, the map still needs a few months of work. I was really worried about the performance, I´m glad it ran smoothly for you. Since it is not a scaled map I just wanted it to have a Berlin feel, as much as possible.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 02-12-2018, 18:12:25
Yes, many of the textures would need to be redone to make it look ‘finished’ but it ran ok on my system and had some nice wider corridors which I didn’t expect. I’ll really want to see how it plays on a full server
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 03-12-2018, 00:12:13
-You can easily stuck beetween static tiger and that barrier. So make more distance between tiger and barrier
- Why non-movable AT gun in russian main base? Germans cant get there even if they want
- I would remove Sdkfz7 with towed Pak40. Towing is not working properly and if you hit something with Pak40 while driving you explode. I would replace it with StukaZuFus

Thats for now
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-12-2018, 00:12:09
I knew about the static tiger barrier. It should be made with a single custom static instead of that mashup I made. I had to reach a balance between not getting stuck and making it look good. I´ll see how I can improve that, it will be hard because I don´t know how to model, I have to stick to the mapping tools.

The non-movable AT gun is just for the looks, just like the vierling. They could be removed but I think they add a touch to the map.

The towed Pak40 has to be driven through even streets, otherwise it will get damaged or destroyed (just like in real life). It works wrong if you use it wrong, that´s the point. My recomendation is to drive slowly and conciously.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 03-12-2018, 05:12:47
The beta test went well, but can you expand the map in some places?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 03-12-2018, 05:12:45
@kutuzovrusss can you show which areas should be expanded and explain why? It would be helpful for blander to know.

[imgur is being a bitch right now so I'll try and upload pics later]

I couldn't make the test today, but I'd like to try to make the next one. Maybe a week or 2 heads up beforehand so there's a possibility of a full server. :D

I had a look around locally and it seems like there's a good base to work with. The sector push makes sense and it seems open enough to not get too bottle-necked. You said the test with 30ish people seemed to go well, so that's promising, but I'd really like to see it with a full server. It seems less like Brest and more like Ramelle (in terms of openness) or a mix of the two which isn't bad.

In terms of aesthetic it still has a long way to go, but I think that once some solid gameplay is laid out, it could be put through the paces to make it look more polished. My advice would be to treat this version as a 'white box' similar to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKQ3fyes5cQ) where the textures and details will come later, and it's more about the statics and terrain being placed and tweaked for gameplay.

I would suggest taking people's gameplay suggestions into account and adjusting the map into a new iteration to be play tested again (and again, and again if necessary) until the gameplay is where you want it. THEN, things like details, textures, effects, floaters, etc... can be commented on and improved.

Other than gameplay (which I won't comment much on since I didn't playtest) there are some things I noticed that I think you could look at improving for your next iteration;

Performance:
I got the flag bug the first time I played and there were also some FPS drops in areas with lots of smoke etc... A few suggestions;

Textures:
I forget how many unique statics you're at, but you should look at trimming the number down. I saw some vehicle wrecks that aren't also Player Controlled vehicles (ie an LRDG Chevy). As a rule of thumb you should try to only place vehicle wrecks that are also vehicles on your map. Otherwise the map is loading a texture that's only being used on a wreck. Also, the T-34 uses 2 textures when it could use one. And the German tanks can all use the '45 Seelow textures for now (custom stuff can come later).

Types of Statics:
You should also try to avoid using 'map-specific' statics (I saw the Pegasus Cafe a few times) as they're very distinct and made for that one map. I would stick to using only building types from 'France' and 'East Front' and swap out statics that aren't from those folders. In general, it would be good to comb through the map static folder in the Editor and look at statics that are used only 1 or 2 times and think about replacing them with others. (this is what I'm doing on my map now). For example you use two types of light posts, when you really only need 1 type. (the player doesn't notice the 2 types in the heat of battle).

Open Buildings:
There are some areas where you use open buildings but they're not really useful (I'm thinking of one on the road to the ruins flag) where it's a large open building that loads many textures and gets many lightmaps, but it doesn't allow you to overlook a flag, it isn't a building that is located in a flag and it doesn't lead the player to a new route or path. So imo it's just a performance waste. In general, I would keep open buildings (especially with an urban map this big, with some many ruins) in the flag zones. The rest of the areas can use closed buildings. I would go through and trim your open buildings.

Smoke
Smoke is a big performance hog so I would use it more sparingly. I like the effect of a ruined city that it gives, but it can definitely be trimmed. Sometimes I'll turn a corner and see 4-5 smoke plumes at one time. If you think about where to place them, you can place them so that the player only ever sees 1-2 at a time but almost always sees one wherever he goes. So he's constantly seeing smoke plumes but never too many at once.

Player Movement
There are lots of places where it's tough to get into doors, you have to jump over obstacles, or can get stuck etc.... I would look for those areas and run around yourself to make sure the player can move freely and easily through the map.

There is also an area on the road to Ruins where you can access an area that I don't think you want the player accessing. It's just a matter of building up the terrain around it more.

I think there's a lot of work to be done, but I do see potential in the map. Especially if people enjoyed the way it played. If you're willing to put in the work and time, I think it could be something really cool. If you feel like scrapping it and taking what you've learned and moving on, that's fine too.

I hope it can be made into something polished and fun to play tho. Not every day we get a Berlin map in the works  :)

EDIT: Here's the images I wanted to add before;
https://imgur.com/a/NbGUmBH (https://imgur.com/a/NbGUmBH)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 03-12-2018, 06:12:18
I think there must be a really good reason to expand the map. That would require even more objects, which I am avoiding. If I were to open it up then I would probably need to shrink/close another sector to reduce the object count.

In the future I plan on modifying some buildings and reduce them to just 1 wall instead of 4. That will help reduce the memory usage. This will be in a future patch though, first I have to learn how to do that.

I didn´t know that about the wrecks, I will replace those. I´m against having just 1 texture for all the T-34s and Panthers. I know I have to work on performance but I think that would just be too plain. Currently there are 3 Panther textures in use, I will reduce it to 2.

What is the Pegasus cafe you are talking about? If you can get me a screenshot or the static´s name I´ll have a look. In general, there are not many buildings to choose from. Maybe a texture tweak could help to make it different. I think there are 3 types of light posts. I could reduce them to 2.

About that open building you say, yes, it is pretty huge and useless. There has been some action there but I´m not sure if it is worthy. The original design idea was to have panzerfausts there. There are other open buildings which I plan on closing.

I´ll do what you say with the smoke columns.

I was aware of the various glitches, I just didn´t care too much on fixing those before the test because they wouldn´t affect gameplay. The test helped me to find more and to realise where rubble objects should be removed to allow a better flow for the tanks.

Thanks for the feedback. I´d like to have another test in january after I fix some of this stuff.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 03-12-2018, 13:12:51
If you have the static modeling skill to make sets of buildings without rear faces for the map boundaries, that would be ideal. The trick is making them modular as well so they can be used on other maps, and also come in set sizes (2m, 4m, 6m, 8m etc... similar to how our trenches and walls are set up).

In the end, this map might require a static modeling expert, it’s just a matter of if you wear both of those hats or not. (It would take a lot of time) I think if the models we have are placed right, a retexture can make it convincing.

Whatever you do to the map, you want to get it to a point where it doesn’t cause the flag bug or severe FPS drops, otherwise, it won’t be played on a public server. It’s always a balance of gameplay (I want this open building here for people to fight in) vs performance (I need to close this building to improve the maps performance) so those are just some tips to improve the latter.

I’ll upload the pics when I’m home and imgur let’s me
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 03-12-2018, 22:12:36
I think there must be a really good reason to expand the map. That would require even more objects, which I am avoiding. If I were to open it up then I would probably need to shrink/close another sector to reduce the object count.
If it played well according to your wishes in terms of gameplay, no expansion is needed.

What is the Pegasus cafe you are talking about? If you can get me a screenshot or the static´s name I´ll have a look.

This is the Pegasus Cafe, the Café Gondrée: (http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/150830/pega06.jpg)
(the building in the middle)

I think there are 3 types of light posts. I could reduce them to 2.
Or one ;)

About that open building you say, yes, it is pretty huge and useless. There has been some action there but I´m not sure if it is worthy. The original design idea was to have panzerfausts there. There are other open buildings which I plan on closing.
Sounds like it can be closed without much hesitation.

Thanks for the feedback. I´d like to have another test in january after I fix some of this stuff.
I'd like to test it too, but Sunday evening is also regular testing for FH2 as a whole, so if you want FH2 devs and/or testers to join the test, please pick another evening :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 04-12-2018, 02:12:00
I used that static way too much to have it replaced easily. I´ll see if I can retexture it and make it look different. If I fail I´ll think about removing it.

Alright, I´ll have just 1 lightpost type.

Good to know when you test official FH2 stuff. CMP campaign battles are on fridays so saturdays are left. Next playtest should be on saturday.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-12-2018, 03:12:58

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 05-12-2018, 17:12:47
Nice train car, who made it?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Turkish007 on 05-12-2018, 17:12:13
Looks like the Stalingrad tram from Battlegroup: Frontlines mod.

(https://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/8/7830/thumb_620x2000/tramrender1.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 05-12-2018, 17:12:32
so you got the permission to use their content after all?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-12-2018, 18:12:36
I failed to get in contact so far.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 05-12-2018, 19:12:46
Hi.
When will the next beta test be?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-12-2018, 19:12:23
Saturday 15th of december 18:00 UTC, 21:00 Moscow. Announcement will come shortly.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 05-12-2018, 21:12:27
Try not to use anyone’s content in the playtest unless they give permission.

I look forward to the next one tho :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: fighterpil on 07-12-2018, 02:12:33
Map is looking great! I'm impressed. Now in case you're looking for a loading song, I have the perfect one for you. It's called "Hot Time In The Town Of Berlin", which I think would fit perfectly. Here is a link:

Let me know what you think! I hope this helped in some way.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 02:12:22
Interesting!

What I don´t like about it is that it is in english and speaks about the americans, it kind of kills the mood imo. I was thinking about this:

There are also many interesting songs in russian of course.

This is another possibility (it gives me chills):

I will also have something like this as ambient sound for the first 15 minutes:

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 07-12-2018, 05:12:13
I would recommend to put the Russian composition when loading the map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 06:12:34
I´m improving these textures still.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 07-12-2018, 06:12:47
Isn't that the stalingrad univermag building? you shouldn't use these kinds of specific statics on a map they don't belong in.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 07:12:13
I took away the pacific buildings because they had no LODs, instead I put this one. It´s always the same problem. Pacific buildings, Pavlov´s house and Univermag building don´t belong in Berlin´s map. A lot of other stuff don´t belong either. There is not much to choose from. As fair as I know, nobody is making a Stalingrad map to use these things in. This is what I have to make a less generic map, if I get something better in the future to replace it I will for sure.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 13:12:11
Are you the one exporting these statics into the game yourself? I ask because if you have that knowledge and skill, you can make a block out of buildings in a modeling program and export them to be modeled properly in the future.

Imo it would be best to use the stuff in the “vanilla” FH folder for now (even if it’s repetative) and make note of the places that would need a custom static to be replaced later. Ultimately that’s what this map would need in the end, and right now you’re still focusing on gameplay.

Plus these unique buildings (if not exported propoerly) could be causing some lag or memory issues and prevent you from finding out if you map is optimized or not.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 14:12:47
They are from BGF mod for BF2, the export is very easy, specially because they are just statics. Last time I used 3dsmax was 11 years ago for WaW, I remember nothing about it.

I went through most buildings in the meshviewer and I removed all the heavy ones and replaced them with light poly but yet very good looking buildings. This map will never get proper statics done, nobody will make them.

I used previously unused CMP stuff and added a couple of BGF statics (I will add more in the future). I put this stalingrad building because the previous one that was there lagged too much because it had no LODs. This one only has LOD0 and LOD1, it´s better than nothing.

That location is a placeholder, if that building doesn´t work I´ll see what I put there.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 14:12:25
So you’re not exporting them from 3ds max then.

Is this a map you’re hoping to add to the CMP map-pack or are you trying to add it to the mod officially one day?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 14:12:33
No, I just grab the files and put them into the map´s folder. Since they are from another BF2 mod, they work fine.

I´d like to add the map to the CMP map-pack once it´s finished. As I said before, it will never have proper statics simply because nobody is going to make them. My goal is to contribute to this great mod and community by delivering a fun new map to play even though it is not historically accurate.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-12-2018, 15:12:12
Just a reminder that you need a permission from BGF devs to use their content, otherwise you can’t legally distribute download links to your map, if you keep ignoring that fact, I hope moderators will take care of it.

...As I said before, it will never have proper statics simply because nobody is going to make them. My goal is to contribute to this great mod and community by delivering a fun new map to play even though it is not historically accurate.
The fact there are not statics for it is one of the main resons we don’t have maps like Berlin or Stalingrad. You need to aim for achievable, you can’t just take content from other mods to finish your map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 16:12:04
Yea, maybe CMP or someone has gotten permission. But make sure not to release it without getting permission to use the stuff. We have to respect other people’s work, no matter how old it is.

Honestly, if the map is good, someone could come along a make some statics for it one day, you never know. Just concentrate on gameplay, I believe people liked the first test, so with tweaks hopefully it can be better on the 2nd test.

I think that once gameplay is where you want it, you can comb through an polish it to fix things like player movement and FPS drops and memory issues. Then things like textures, statics and lightmaps could be worked on to make it feel finished.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-12-2018, 16:12:52
I created a thread in the BG42 forum which has less than 10 threads in total. It is the only possibly active place someone could know about the devs. Places where there actually is a conversation about this are from 2008. I will probably never get an answer from someone that ditched the mod.

Mat, I will not wait a hundred years until a savior modeler arrives. I will release the map as soon as it is ready with whatever assets I have available. After all, I won´t make another map, I just wanted to contribute with something nice.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 07-12-2018, 16:12:37
If that’s the case, we’d have to make sure the assets are allowed to be used, otherwise nobody will release the map.

I’d hope you’re willing to make sure the map runs and plays well with the assets that you’re using, and do as much as you can to polish it before ‘finishing’ it. It might not include making statics, but it will still be a lot of work to polish as much as possible.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 07-12-2018, 19:12:38
I created a thread in the BG42 forum which has less than 10 threads in total. It is the only possibly active place someone could know about the devs. Places where there actually is a conversation about this are from 2008. I will probably never get an answer from someone that ditched the mod.
Then don’t use their content, ”ditched” or not, it is still copyrighted material you are not allowed to use.

Mat, I will not wait a hundred years until a savior modeler arrives. I will release the map as soon as it is ready with whatever assets I have available. After all, I won´t make another map, I just wanted to contribute with something nice.
BGF assets are not available for you without owners permission. Welcome to the world of modding.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 08-12-2018, 00:12:50
I created a thread in the BG42 forum which has less than 10 threads in total. It is the only possibly active place someone could know about the devs. Places where there actually is a conversation about this are from 2008. I will probably never get an answer from someone that ditched the mod.
Then don’t use their content, ”ditched” or not, it is still copyrighted material you are not allowed to use.

Mat, I will not wait a hundred years until a savior modeler arrives. I will release the map as soon as it is ready with whatever assets I have available. After all, I won´t make another map, I just wanted to contribute with something nice.
BGF assets are not available for you without owners permission. Welcome to the world of modding.

Seems to me....

1. If the community is dead & an honest effort has went into contacting someone after a reasonable period of time without any contact = Public domain.

2. Its not like he is selling this map for a profit. Its free to the community

I made a Pearl harbor map for 42 back in 2010 using content from several mods without permission & shared it with my clan. No lawyers came knocking on my door.

3. There is always "Fair Use".

Fair use is a doctrine in the law of the United States that permits limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder. Fair use is one of the limitations to copyright intended to balance the interests of copyright holders with the public interest in the wider distribution and use of creative works by allowing as a defense to copyright infringement claims certain limited uses that might otherwise be considered infringement.

Anyways.....Good Luck.....

:-*
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Yakovlev on 08-12-2018, 04:12:31
Hey blander if you ever interested by a historical soviet song about the battle of berlin i recommand you the song of Leonid Utyosov - Road to Berlin , it was written by Leonid in 1945 at the last months of the collapsing third reich.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 08-12-2018, 05:12:47
Interesting song. I don´t personally like the music itself though the lyrics are very adequate. There´s still a lot of work until the map is finished, there´s more than enough time to choose a song.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: kutuzovrusss on 08-12-2018, 07:12:32
photo must also be put at boot
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 08-12-2018, 17:12:44
@Jimi I don’t wanna derail this thread
Spoiler
that’s all well and good, but fair use doesn’t apply here. There’s no law saying that we can’t use that content. Even the Chinese mods that steal FH2s stuff get no real reprocussion because nobody has the time or patience to follow up on that stuff.

It’s more a question of morality. Those people worked really hard on their models and textures, and there’s no telling if they would’ve really been okay with others using their work for something else. Some (most) of them might not give a fuck, some of them might get legitimately angry that someone is using their work out of context. It’s not our position to say what they would’ve wanted.

Also, if we start just taking content for use in our own projects, it gives us no moral backup when we see others stealing our content.

To top that off, afaik the FH and CMP devs won’t release anything that hasn’t gotten explicit permission from the previous owner to be used. This is just a courtesy to other modders.

Keep working on the map, I’m curious to see how it plays.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: SgtAlex on 08-12-2018, 18:12:30
It would be easier if mods defined licenses for their content (creative commons for example)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 08-12-2018, 22:12:56
@Jimi I don’t wanna derail this thread
Spoiler
that’s all well and good, but fair use doesn’t apply here. There’s no law saying that we can’t use that content. Even the Chinese mods that steal FH2s stuff get no real reprocussion because nobody has the time or patience to follow up on that stuff.

It’s more a question of morality. Those people worked really hard on their models and textures, and there’s no telling if they would’ve really been okay with others using their work for something else. Some (most) of them might not give a fuck, some of them might get legitimately angry that someone is using their work out of context. It’s not our position to say what they would’ve wanted.

Also, if we start just taking content for use in our own projects, it gives us no moral backup when we see others stealing our content.

To top that off, afaik the FH and CMP devs won’t release anything that hasn’t gotten explicit permission from the previous owner to be used. This is just a courtesy to other modders.

Keep working on the map, I’m curious to see how it plays.

Agreed. Its a fascinating project!

8)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: LuckyOne on 08-12-2018, 23:12:38
It might be best to get to BGF devs through someone else. If anyone knows where to find them, it's this guy:

https://www.moddb.com/members/anthony817

So contact him first and he might give you some leads.

Also, try posting in this group, maybe someone from the original devs is in it and will see the comment:

https://www.moddb.com/groups/battlefield-mod-developers
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 13-12-2018, 12:12:56
We´re testing it on saturday:

http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21865.msg359471#new (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=21865.msg359471#new)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Alubat on 16-12-2018, 12:12:30
Looks and plays great.
Only thing I would change a bit if engine can handle it
Put more smoke & flames in the streets. Its possible to watch from one end to the other in most streets.

Cant wait to play on a full server
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 16-12-2018, 13:12:23
Only thing I would change a bit if engine can handle it
Put more smoke & flames in the streets. Its possible to watch from one end to the other in most streets.
Engine cant' handle that unfortunately, smoke drastically affects the performance in BF2. View distance can be always limited to help it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 16-12-2018, 15:12:46
OK, I made an imgur album with my screenshots, and in the screenshots it says why I took it: https://imgur.com/a/wZJKJj2

Some points:
- I can see you put a lot of work into this map, good job!
- When walking around the map I get the feeling that I'm in a big city, which is good.
- The level of destruction varies quite a lot: one street is clean, the next one is full of rubble. A bit more consistency would be nice, overall I think too many streets look very clean. More rubble would not only make it look better, but it would also provide more cover for infantry.
- Some vehicles spawn in a weird postion, like slightly uphill or partially into a sidewalk. It looks bad so better move them forward a bit.
- There is a tankditch in the SW corner of the map, I think it's a cool feature but it's also a bit useless because you can just drive into teh next street and pass the ditch that way.
- The Hospital building is a bit too big, it's almost a map in itself. I would close a part of it, so people will only go into the relevant parts. Also, the flagzone is a bit too low atm: vehicles can cap from outside
- When you're gonna cut down on open buildings, delete the ones which are not in a flagzone first (I have one example in the screenshots).
- I also gave some examples of stuff which doesn't seem natural or logical, like a street full of destruction with nice and tidy trees growing in them. I'd replace those trees with burnt treest wherever possible, so the complete picture looks better.

In the testing the Boulevard flag was being defend by one KT and the flanking options were non-existent. Of course this needs to be tested with more people, but keep in mind that it might be too much of a bottleneck, maybe open up some small sidestreets for infantry so they can flank the big cats and faust them.

All in all good job on this map so far, it really feels like a big city, it doesn't really feel like Berlin (yet) but you would need mapspecific statics for that. Maybe you can find some modeler willing to make a Berlin building or two for you, that would be great.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: ahalol on 16-12-2018, 18:12:45
After playing it on Saturday, I found this map very fun. I can see it has great potentials! I have some recommendations:
• I liked the large number of enter-able buildings, it makes the map into an urban combat zone. It would be better if you can add even more ;).
• With that being said, I think it is going to be hard for the Russians to capture 2 flags at the same time (especially the hospital) in order to move on the next zone. Why don't you make it so that each flag is not recappable by the German?
• In addition, I would love to see more Panzerschreck. I was only able to find one.

Nevertheless, thank you for the efforts!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 16-12-2018, 21:12:12
• I liked the large number of enter-able buildings, it makes the map into an urban combat zone. It would be better if you can add even more ;).
You know open buildings are a large burden on performance, right? Adding more is not only unnecessary, but it will make performance suffer when greater numbers if players will be playing on the map.

On a performance note: I forgot to mention that I had fps between 100 and 200 mostly, average of 140, with some peaks to above 250. That's quite nice considering this map has so many statics.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-12-2018, 23:12:53
Thank you for coming and for your feedback, it´s going to help improve the map a lot.

About smoke and flames. After the first test I removed around 40 smoke effects and 10 fire effects. As a result of this, performace improved a whole lot during the second test.

- There is a tankditch in the SW corner of the map, I think it's a cool feature but it's also a bit useless because you can just drive into teh next street and pass the ditch that way.

I put the ditch there to prevent tanks from spamming the german spawnpoints, which are right after the ditch. It has a gameplay purpose and also the germans IRL blocked some streets to bottleneck the russian tanks into traps so it doesn´t look so off to me. If you still think it looks off then I could just replace it with a row of buildings to protect the spawnpoints, let me know what you think about it.

Quote
- The Hospital building is a bit too big, it's almost a map in itself. I would close a part of it, so people will only go into the relevant parts. Also, the flagzone is a bit too low atm: vehicles can cap from outside

"Hospital" is just a placeholder name, btw. The buildings that were there on the previous test-game were just as big. It didn´t look bad in my oppinion with enough players, last time we were just too few to test properly. I like how this building has a lot of room for fighting, I really think closing areas would be a waste and would become too grenade spammy on a full server. Capzone will be higher and smaller, yes.

Quote
- I also gave some examples of stuff which doesn't seem natural or logical, like a street full of destruction with nice and tidy trees growing in them. I'd replace those trees with burnt treest wherever possible, so the complete picture looks better.

(https://i.imgur.com/AhxMQpT.jpg)

Does it look so different? There is a lot of trash and rubble though also trees.

(https://i.imgur.com/EJ1be04.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmAAGG.jpg)

There doesn´t seem to be much destruction here either.

(https://i.imgur.com/4LdhblQ.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/cf/7a/f6cf7a4d868dd19876fbd559b6948cac.jpg)

Not the best looking but decent I think.

Quote
In the testing the Boulevard flag was being defend by one KT and the flanking options were non-existent. Of course this needs to be tested with more people, but keep in mind that it might be too much of a bottleneck, maybe open up some small sidestreets for infantry so they can flank the big cats and faust them.

In the previous test Boulevard flag was way too easy to capture for the russians (15 vs 15). To improve this I added an unlock timer and a fixed defensive MG42. Keep in mind that the russians have about twice (or more) as many tanks as the germans so a single KT shouldn´t be a match for 4 tanks flanking it. Of couse it is not the same in a 6 vs 6 scenario.

Quote
All in all good job on this map so far, it really feels like a big city, it doesn't really feel like Berlin (yet) but you would need mapspecific statics for that. Maybe you can find some modeler willing to make a Berlin building or two for you, that would be great.

After I release the map for public play I intend to learn modeling and make some optimized custom assets to enhance the map´s performance. I could attempt a specific building but which one? The map is not historically accurate, it´s just an invention. What building (non generic) do you think could be a good addition for the map?

Quote
With that being said, I think it is going to be hard for the Russians to capture 2 flags at the same time (especially the hospital) in order to move on the next zone. Why don't you make it so that each flag is not recappable by the German?
In addition, I would love to see more Panzerschreck. I was only able to find one.

Russians are favored to win, in both play-tests. I think making flags non recappable would make it just impossible for the germans. I will add more pickups in general for both sides. I didn´t care much about that for the tests because those details can be address in the final stages.

Quote
On a performance note: I forgot to mention that I had fps between 100 and 200 mostly, average of 140, with some peaks to above 250. That's quite nice considering this map has so many statics.

I opened many buildings in Meshviewer and sorted out the most optimized ones. The ones with missing LODs or just too poly-heavy were discarded or reduced in numbers. I´m glad I reached a playable level.

My plan now is to optimize the map even more, add more destroyed buildings, add more rubble and trash on the streets, fix all textures, lightmaps and little details.

After all that is done (will take at least 2 months) maybe we can have a final playtest in search of any kind of mistake or bug, not just gameplay.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 16-12-2018, 23:12:29
I put the ditch there to prevent tanks from spamming the german spawnpoints, which are right after the ditch. It has a gameplay purpose and also the germans IRL blocked some streets to bottleneck the russian tanks into traps so it doesn´t look so off to me. If you still think it looks off then I could just replace it with a row of buildings to protect the spawnpoints, let me know what you think about it.
OK, fair enough. I didn't know about the spawn protection. It just looks a bit odd that you can simply turn your tank and then drive into the next street, but it's totally fine if you want to keep it like this.

- I also gave some examples of stuff which doesn't seem natural or logical, like a street full of destruction with nice and tidy trees growing in them. I'd replace those trees with burnt treest wherever possible, so the complete picture looks better.

(https://i.imgur.com/AhxMQpT.jpg)

Does it look so different? There is a lot of trash and rubble though also trees.

(https://i.imgur.com/EJ1be04.jpg)

(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HdmAAGG.jpg)

There doesn´t seem to be much destruction here either.
From when were those pictures? The Hetzer one is from Warsaw if I have to believe the url. The one with the ISU seems from after the battle, in a street which didn't see much action. Still, there is a knocked over tree on the left there, probably because tanks drove over it.

edit: what I can find about this pic is that it was taken in May 1945, so chances are pretty big that it was after the battle.

What I'm trying to get across is that you are depicting a battle in the streets of Berlin and the streets just don't look much like they were fought in.

(https://i.imgur.com/4LdhblQ.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/cf/7a/f6cf7a4d868dd19876fbd559b6948cac.jpg)

Not the best looking but decent I think.
If it doesn't affect performance all that much, it's a cool feature to keep.

Keep in mind that the russians have about twice (or more) as many tanks as the germans so a single KT shouldn´t be a match for 4 tanks flanking it. Of couse it is not the same in a 6 vs 6 scenario.
Problem is that you couldn't flank the KT properly. From the front it can only be hurt much by the IS2 and the ISU, both vehicles with a much longer reload time than the KT, therefore offering the KT an easy job by 2-shotting the Russians. Let's see, maybe it's not a problem at all with more players, but the KT could now pretty easily pick the tanks one by one and keeping the flag safe.

What building (non generic) do you think could be a good addition for the map?
Maybe an Opera House, like Berlin has on Unter den Linden? I'll think about this a little more and if I come up with more options I'll post them.

My plan now is to optimize the map even more, add more destroyed buildings, add more rubble and trash on the streets, fix all textures, lightmaps and little details.
Sounds great!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 17-12-2018, 18:12:04
Keep up the good work blander. We are all watching the progress.

8)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 24-12-2018, 05:12:15
Some more destruction and cover for infantry

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 24-12-2018, 09:12:02
Nice, keep it up  :)

Maybe a crater in the road here and there to break things up nicely.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 24-12-2018, 09:12:25
Generally speaking when making cover for infantry it is best to cluster the objects a bit so they are more useful for that purpose.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 24-12-2018, 14:12:44
Alright, will do. I noticed during tests that tanks have trouble going through some places. Problem is statics like lamp posts, little crates and barrels completely block tanks, which does not happen IRL. The solution I came up with is making enough room for tanks to maneuver. I could probably put on the streets objects with colmeshes that don´t affect tanks. What I don´t like about that is that you have to guess which objects have "antitank" colmeshes and which are free to roll through.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: SgtAlex on 30-12-2018, 21:12:29
Another option is to make the lightposts destroyable, I remember that there is a stop sign in BF2 that is destroyable by any vehicle, you can drive over it and destroy it. There is a tutorial about how to do destroyable statics in the editor itself, help tab iirc. Maybe it can be done via tmp.con, so no need of a new static. This last thing is just a supposition.

There is a big lack of destroyable objects in the mod, I read once that they affected perfomance or something like that, cant remember exactly what was the reason, but 15 years later of BF2 launch, I dont think a little more of workload will significantly affect perfomance, but of course I doubt it's matter of hardware, but the engine itself. However, BF2 had many destroyable objects, fuel barrels, bridges, road signs, wooden walls, wooden crates... and perfomance was good back then, so...
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 30-12-2018, 23:12:29
Those affect performance indeed, and it's an engine issue and not hardware related, it can make map lag no matter what (or cause dozen of other weird bugs). Then it raises the question, why object X is destructible but Y is not. Keep in mind that BF2 is also so much less demanding than FH2. This mod is pushing engine to the limits in some aspects already.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-02-2019, 09:02:54
We should be testing the map again on february 16th along with other maps.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 02-02-2019, 16:02:44
Looking good, the first two and the last two pictures really show the city coming to life :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 02-02-2019, 21:02:11
On first pic, I see new building on left? Its nice, from where?
Nice looking city, watch out people cant stuck beetwen that chairs and rest! And did you expand a little bit that first sector? It looked for me too small for big number of people.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ts4EVER on 02-02-2019, 21:02:09
I think that is the Stalingrad Univermag.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 02-02-2019, 22:02:48
Yeah, it is from Stalingrad. The first and last sectors are small but they are supposed to last the shortest. Middle sectors are wide and should be where most of the fighting goes on.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Alubat on 16-02-2019, 12:02:11
running outside battle area
https://youtu.be/vF67DseReck
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 16-02-2019, 14:02:30
Thanks for that. I already knew it though, along with other similar glitches. I did not address those kind of issues yet because I want to test the gameplay and team balance first. For instance, there is an area of the map I plan on deleting thus it wouldn´t make sense to polish it yet. It will depend on how the final test goes today.

Any more bugs/glitches/suggestions are welcome!
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 17-02-2019, 00:02:21
Feedback from the test session 16/2/19:
That map was way more fun than I thought! :) gj on the layout. The map reminds me a lot of Ramelle, which imo is a pretty good city map. It certainly seemed to flow a bit better than Ramelle, but we didn't have a full 100 players afaik. I think this map will play a lot more like Ramelle with 100 players, so it could get stalemated very easily, or flow nicely and be more fun.

For what it's worth, Ramelle is (imo) the 2nd best urban map in the mod right now. So that's saying something. (Fall of Tobruk is my favorite)

Gameplay Observations
-In general the map seemed to progress nicely, but there just never seemed like enough time for the Russians to cap the whole map. I think removing the last sector could fix this. Adding tickets or adding assets could make it drag on or be spammy.

-There wasn't as much spam from the heavy tanks as I thought there would be. It seemed to be at a good level imo. Maybe some grenade limiting to 1 per kit couldn't hurt tho. That's usually the standard.

-The streets are more open than something like Brest which is really nice and allows the tanks to move more freely.

-I still got lots of FPS drops in areas. It's way better than before, but will need some more optimization

-Fighting in the BGF static in the 'Store' flag gave me 'Grain Elevator' feels :) that was nice.

Suggestions
-I think that maybe the last 2 flags could just be an uncapable main base, and the Altona and Square sector could be the last sector. This would shorten the map and give the Russians a chance to actually win. Altona would maybe need to be moved in this scenario.

-I think Boulevard should be uncap after it falls. It's already tough on the Russians. Don't want to have a person sneak back there, pop out a squad, and then the Russians lose a bunch of momentum having to go back and get it. It's a tough flag to take and the map should be straight 'sector push' imo.

Overall this map was way better than I expected. I'll be honest and say it was my favorite map of the night, so great job. It's clear that you put a lot of work into it and I'm really happy you've decided to test the gameplay as thoroughly as you have.

Towards the Future
Honestly, I would like to see this map become official one day (even if that day is months or years in the future). That would take a lot of work and dedication (as much as you've already put into it) but I think it could be done.

I'd like to comb through the map sometime and list out the things needed for it to be polished. From there, it could give us a better idea of if it's feasible to make it a 'real' Berlin map. I believe that with a few custom statics and other stuff, it could become convincing. Not to make it sound like it would be easy, but the map plays well and has lots of potential imo.

Let me know what your plans are for the future with it :D
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 17-02-2019, 00:02:41
Today was my second test on this map and there were more players so it gave a good idea of how this map would play in public.

Room for improvement:

Sectors:
First sector should fall soon, this didn't happen when I played as Russian, but it did happen when I played German, so maybe it was the teams.

Some sectors have real tight bottlenecks with no real options for flanking. I say again, like after the first test, that Boulevard is too hard for the Russians and it hampers the flow of the battle too much imo. Even though the Russians capped it in both rounds they didn't get much further after that (because of tickets running out or because of the fight getting bogged down).

The last sector should fall easily according to your plans, but i both rounds the Soviets didn't get to it, so maybe some gameplaychanges could be done to achieve that:
- opening up more flanking routes, especially around Boulevard, or
- make Boulevard unrecappable so Soviets will push forward harder and not stay back in case of a German recap

Performance:
There are still way too many open buildings. For example: the chateau next to Fueldump and the church next to Square: it is nice to have them open, but performance is not good on this map. I had a steady fps of ~40, whereas I have an fps of 100-150 on most FH2 maps, on some even 300-400. I even had some real hickups and teleporting a short distance (didn't have that on the other maps afair). So less open buildings and maybe close off some parts if you don't want to close them entirely. You could also try and make a heatmap and close off the least used streets and save textures that way. Don't be afraid oif getting repeptitive with closed buildings: you can place them in various ways, reskin them and alternate with destroyed buildings inbetween them. Because you fight in different sectors, you can easily place the same statics in sector 1 and 3 and then others in 2 and 4.

Player movement:
When spawning as a German at the location of the static Tiger, it is hard to get out of there, maybe try to make the collision of the rubble in front of it easier to pass through. As it is, I had to keep jumping to get out.

Good stuff:

I love the way you added more rubble and made the city look more like a destroyed place.

Good move of the flagzone in the Store flag!

I had good fun on the map, I think I died a thousand times, but good work! To make it more "Berlin" you would have to get rid off the Stalingrad building and have someone make a unique static for you (and no, that doesn't have to be the Reichstag ;))
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 17-02-2019, 05:02:13
Also, some other notes to piggy back on Slayer's comments. He's right that the first sector should be easy to take (want to keep that progression going). It's good that Germans get no tanks in this sector. But to make it a bit easier on the Russians I can suggest 2 things.

This first flag (I forget the names, sorry)
(https://i.imgur.com/x2x5Rdn.jpg)

A second path to attack from the other side would be wonderful. This way the Russian's can come from 2 sides instead of being bottle necked down one road.

Yard, if you make the flag zone a bit larger to encompass these buildings, it will give the Russians a better chance. I noticed that I couldn't cap until way into the flag zone well within grenade range of the Germans where our tanks couldn't help us too much.
(https://i.imgur.com/caQdE4V.jpg)

Also, what Slayer was saying about performance intense statics.
For example: the chateau next to Fueldump and the church next to Square: it is nice to have them open, but performance is not good on this map.

These two;
(https://i.imgur.com/nnlnwxP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1znJwx3.jpg)

These statics are large, with interiors that then need to be decorated and lightmapped. That makes them very performance intensive. These are best served as 'set pieces' in a flag zone where players can cap the flag from and will fight over constantly.

Right now they're just used as cover for Germans defending outside the flag zone. I'd replace them with the typical destroyed ruins that will serve the same purpose and won't ruin the atmosphere or look repetitive imo.

Also, as I said before, I think it would be great to limit frag grenades to 1 per kit on this map.

Just some more thoughts. :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-02-2019, 06:02:04
On the topic of optimization:

There are non-stock FH2 buildings that don´t have proper LODs and thus they tend to lag the game. I think those are the number one problem behind lag right now. The thing is I have to learn how to fix those models myself and I don´t even know if I will ever achieve it since I know little to nothing about modeling.

My goal is to release a playable Berlin as soon as possible and afterwards work on a patch with a variety of improvements regarding gameplay, optimization, aesthetics, etc.

There are yet lots of things to do to make the map ready for the new map-pack so first I want to address the most important stuff.

In general I need to keep the staticobject count where it is now (less would be even better). In order to widen/open an area of the map I would need to close/delete another area first to keep the number of statics fairly even.

I will analyze the first round we played since it had around 70 players.

----

1st Sector:

It resulted in a horrible bottleneck-grenade-fest so definately something has to be done about it. Originally there was an extra passage appart from the 3 streets. I ended up taking it away but maybe I will have to either re-open it or make the streets a bit wider. Connected ruined buildings and wider flagzones could definately help avoid the grenade spam.

2nd Sector:

Again, too many players for too few narrow streets. Expanding this sector is not an option since it lags the most so I would rely on weakening the german assets. Maybe limit more the machineguns and statics AT guns.

3rd Sector:

Make Boulevard flag un-recappable and add some infantry-only passage to allow some flanking through the ruins to get out of the choke point. This is where the main battle goes on and it´s a very wide sector so I wouldn´t modify much here.

4th Sector:

I put a lot of effort and detail into this sector so I don´t want it to become the german mainbase. Instead I would keep it as it is but also remove german tank spawns at this point so the russians would expect to finish this off in around 5 minutes.

---

Back on optimization:

I agree on replacing some open buildings but keep in mind that the heaviest statics do not belong to stock FH2 and if managed to fix those then probably the lag problem would have diminished.

Lastly, I copy-pasted bleed settings from Seelow Heights. In Berlin it seems people die a lot more so I would rise the tickets a little bit to give the russians a few more minutes to reach the last sector of the map.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 17-02-2019, 10:02:45
Theres a few duplicate objects in the map, things like wooden barrels, crates etc. I dont think there is really need to have several same sized crates around the map because each adds up load on the map. Try to streamline the object count if you can, since it is unnecessary to use multiple objects to do a job one object can do just fine. If you fear repetition, then thats a compromise you gotta consider.

For testing purposes I would have loved if the round I played would have lasted longer so we could have seen how the map is at the later parts. We "only" got to boulevard flag, captured it but ran out of tickets at that point. Was actually quite fun even if I was constantly killed without a chance to even see the enemy (not necessarily map's fault, I dont see people on stock maps either).

Only problem with ambitious projects such as this is that you only get so far when you are doing a landmark battle like this with the objects we have. I feel that even with an extensive texture overhaul to majority of the buildings on the map, the berlin immersion would still fall short. But thats just something that you cant do anything about on your own and that is completely fine. It seems like a nice map from proof of concept point of view and I'd be willing to participate in another test in the future, because even if it doesnt make me think it is Berlin, I still enjoyed the work you've put in and the fact that we dont have many city maps in FH2.

Nice going and keep it up.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-02-2019, 17:02:26
After the first game test months ago I made a thorough investigation to see which buildings cause more lag. I realized that some closed buildings are actually memory-heavier than some open ones. I agree the Chateau and the destroyed church are a bit heavy in polys but that´s about it, the rest of the buildings I´ve chosen are very light on polys.

Non-stock buildings are not correctly optimized and do add to the lag but even so, I have chosen the ones that are more optimized. Little objects like barrels and crates ended up not being very important as I once thought, I did lots of testing after which I added back a lot of small objects to the map since they don´t make as much of a difference as unoptimized buildings do.

There are much smaller urban type maps such as Brest or Tunis (to a degree) where players are supposed to die a lot because there is constant CQB action. I think what happened in Berlin is that people don´t know the map so they don´t really take precautions about staying alive and that´s why the tickets ran dry so quickly on the first round. Bear in mind there is no artillery on the map for a good reason, which kind of bothers me because the russians had brought a heavy amount of artillery to the battle. I cannot replicate that because it would make the map unplayable.

Speaking of aesthetics I have planned some re-texturing and of course getting those french signs turned to german. After all, being in Berlin doesn´t mean the Reichstag has to be there no matter what. The map could be just any big german city.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 17-02-2019, 17:02:21
There are much smaller urban type maps such as Brest or Tunis (to a degree) where players are supposed to die a lot because there is constant CQB action. I think what happened in Berlin is that people don´t know the map so they don´t really take precautions about staying alive and that´s why the tickets ran dry so quickly on the first round. Bear in mind there is no artillery on the map for a good reason, which kind of bothers me because the russians had brought a heavy amount of artillery to the battle. I cannot replicate that because it would make the map unplayable.
You need to reduce number of vehicles, not knowing the map is an advantage as much as a disadvantage, people don't know the map, so campers don't know the best spots to stop enemy advance either, it works both ways. Forget about artillery, it just doesn't fit the urban maps, IRL every building can give you a shelter, in game you have none, and mortars can completely ruin the gameplay, it's the reason why they were removed from Brest. You also need to apply the stricter grenade limits like it is done on Tunis and Brest, and even Sammatus.

Other than that, map played surprisingly well, though I had massive FPS drops all over the place (up to 25fps, while I normally play with ~80), not only near custom statics. You need to reduce number of open buildings, you can also limit the view distance a bit, and render the distant fog closer. I think adding a bit of fog, reducing view distance and changing light setting to some more apocalyptic will greatly impact atmosphere on the map, making it look more like freshly ruined city.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 17-02-2019, 17:02:03
The number of vehicles has been reduced already since previous tests. In which sector do you think they should be reduced and why? I ask this because tank spawners change from sector to sector so it may be alright in a sector but too many in others. If I am to reduce the number of soviet tanks then I have to reduce the availability of AT weapons for the germans to keep it even.

I thought about limiting grenades from the start but I got some complaints about it when I started to create the map. After this test it is clear that kits should not have more than 1 grenade.

I´ve tested reducing the viewdistance and I got to the best possible point. Increasing it is not necessary but decreasing it makes the map look weird, I´m not touching that. I tested fog too and it also make the map look weird with the current light settings. Undergrowth view distance has been reduced to the minimum without making it look bad. Lightmap and skybox tweaking is something being considered.

I will definately look into replacing the Chateau and the church, other than that there is not a LOT more I can do right now to optimize the map before I get into model tweaking. I can remove a few open buildings but I know it won´t make a big difference because I have tested it already.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 17-02-2019, 18:02:01
Both 1st and 2nd sector had either too many tanks or their spawn times should be increased. About the statics: make a tiny bit of difference here and there and overall performance will improve significantly, you have many duplicates, static on top of statics etc and some of them can be easily cut out. I still believe that fog can be added and view distance reduced too, so lots of stuff won't have to render far away. Sometimes you need to sacrifice what you like about the map and go for solution that will make it work well.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 17-02-2019, 23:02:31
I can remove a few open buildings but I know it won´t make a big difference because I have tested it already.
And what about those non-FH2 statics? Are they ABSOLUTELY necessary? Or can they be replaced with a closed FH2 static with a different skin/texture? Replacing those might help a lot, why not make a copy of the map and do it on that just to try it out?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 19-02-2019, 04:02:07
So I wanted to comb through each area of the map to see where I think improvements could be made to various things. Imo, that's a good thing to start doing; start polishing up static placement, performance, textures, effects etc... as well as making other gameplay tweaks from the feedback you're getting. This is mainly aesthetic stuff, and you can take or leave these suggestions, but I think they'll help.

I started with the Russian Main Base

Spoiler
Statics:
In the main base, you really don't need many areas for the player to go. Just letting them access the street is fine, since this is a place for assets & players to spawn and move out.

(https://i.imgur.com/a1LRMA0.jpg)
A roadblock or some sort of wall blocking the rear areas does a few things:
A) denotes to the player that they can't go back there
B) blocks the line of sight in most places from infantry. meaning you can get rid of the trucks etc...

(https://i.imgur.com/MGLvsvZ.jpg)
It also allows the area behind it to be less noticable so you can repeat statics and remove the Italian ones, reducing the unique static number. Also, replacing those walls with other closed buildings won't be as noticeable with a wall blocking the view.

There's also an open building in the OOB back there that I forgot to screenshot. This can be replaced with a ruined facade, or better yet, another closed building without an interior.

The Pegasus Cafe should be replaced with something more generic as well. Ruins or just copy the other buildings. This would not be too redundant imo, especially in the main base near the OOB area.

(https://i.imgur.com/laBgzk2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WRnmQgi.jpg)
Right now there are areas where the players can wander into destroyed buildings. These areas could be blocked off in the above way, with a couple of ruins and modified terrain to show rubble piled in the doors and windows (similar to how Brest does it). This keeps it simple, uses less statics, and reduces the areas that a player can go where you have to then block their line of sight to out of bounds areas.

Spawns
Keep it simple, there's no need for players to spawn in covered areas in the rubble.

(https://i.imgur.com/Q46aaqs.jpg)
Keep vehicles on the right, players on the left. No need for protection or clever spawns in an area where the players aren't in danger of anything. This also allows you to block off those rubble areas.

Also turning the tanks 45 degrees is just a minor way to make it easier for players to get in and drive off quickly.

Textures
Some minor comments on textures here;
(https://i.imgur.com/XzJliZN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Mdwa18V.jpg)
I feel as if the 'rubble' areas would be better with the 'rubble' texture. Seeing bricks laying on top of parts of a building that were pounded into a fine sand seems strange.

I'll try and go through the other parts of the map as I can. But I think this type of stuff will greatly help performance and overall quality if it'sdone slowly in each area of the map :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-02-2019, 07:02:28
That´s a lot of good stuff.

So far I have done the following:

- Reduced the amount of tanks and increased spawn times
- Removed the spawnable Geballte Ladung to even up the fact that tanks will appear less frequently
- Replaced statics used only once or twice
- Reduced viewdistance a bit
- Replaced poly heavy buildings with lighter variations and ruins

Still pending (in the next few days):

- Fixing the russian main
- Working on ground textures
- A grimmer skybox and according light settings
- A few building layout modification to improve gameplay

I´d like to finish these things in order to have another play-test some time before the next CMP campaign starts. Could be in a month or so.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 20-02-2019, 17:02:59
Do you think you could move the dugin Panther to the Boulevard area?

Historically, twelve panzers (Panther Ausf. D, A, G, Panzer IV Ausf. H, J, G) from Panzer Kompanie Bodenständig Berlin were placed in strategic intersections, such as Chausseestraße - Dankeskirche – Wedding, Badstraße - Pankstraße - Wedding, Bismarckstraße - Sophie Charlotte Platz - Charlottenburg, Wilmersdorfer Straße – Kurfürstendamm - Charlottenburg etc.

Just an idea. Anyway, keep up the good work  :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 20-02-2019, 19:02:29
The Panther already is in a strategic intersection. The russians have to go through its line of fire in order to capture any flag from the sector. I´ve changed the german tank spawners so that tanks will come into battle only after Boulevard is taken. If I added additional defense (like the dugin Panther) to Boulevard it would be impossible to cap by the russians.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 13-03-2019, 03:03:30
We will probably have a new gametest next saturday. Some improvements:

- Darker sky and lighting.

- Better optimization (less objects, less unique objects, less poly heavy objects, 10 mts. shorter viewdistance).

- Less tanks on both sides, more limited spawnable AT kits and 1 grenade max per assault kit.

- More cover for infantry everywhere and added gameplay among the ruins.

- Boulevard flag is now non-recap and German heavy tanks only spawn after it is captured.

The general idea is to give the infantry more prominence with improved cover and less explosions everywhere.

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 14-03-2019, 20:03:18
Sounds promising, I hope the lighting is not too dark now, but we'll see :)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 14-03-2019, 21:03:07
Pictures look very nice! Good job
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 21-03-2019, 09:03:26

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 25-03-2019, 12:03:47
Nice work on the custom skins.

However, I'd use standardized factory cam on the Panther instead of eh, "1945" version. Funny thing, in-game version Panther Ausf. A (late) seems to be fairly accurate presentation of the late war factory camouflage.

The ambush schemes were just more laborious variants of the standardized ex works cam - and very short-lived, especially on the Panther: only from late August to early October 1944. All the assembly firms stopped applying disc / dot patterns by late 1944, with the exception of Henschel & Son and their Tiger II.

Statistically, the average age of most German tanks was less than 2-3 months (minus what they could pull from the reserve) in April 1945. So it would be next to impossible to find an AFV with the ambush scheme after the Ardennes Offensive or after the first phase of the Ruhr Pocket. Going off-topic here, but some early Bulge maps could use certain vehicles with the disc / dot camo, instead of all being thoroughly white-washed. Surely there weren't any white Tiger IIs.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 25-03-2019, 17:03:38
One of the Panthers had a different skin but I was told to make them all 1945. I was thinking about this in the future:

(http://www.kagero.pl/images/nicewatermark/occnvai23901-pz-kpfw-v-panthercati101iti705limitstart2-27_tc01shopkager8.jpg)

Pz.Kpfw. V Panther Ausf. G, coded “333”, of 5th Panzer Battalion, 25th Panzer Grenadier Division; area east of Berlin, April 1945. [Painted by Arkadiusz Wróbel]
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 25-03-2019, 21:03:16
MNH factory camo. This particular Panther "333" met its end at Küstrin-Kietz area, while escorting a Tiger II from sSSPzAbt.502 (both disabled by mines and finished off by captured Panzerfausts)

(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh474/miloslavhrabec1/333Panther.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2019, 03:03:43
I would appreciate pictures for the map loading screen, if you want to collaborate.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 26-03-2019, 08:03:30
Sure thing, just tell me what you need.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 26-03-2019, 20:03:43
Anything would be alright. I guess you can make your own selection and post it here, I guess 4 pics would be enough for the loading screen.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 27-03-2019, 07:03:15
Unfortunately, the majority of Berlin related images from April 1945 are miscaptioned, staged or just post war.... but here are some picks. Mostly well known pictures, but at least they are from the Berlin centre, timeline being April to early May:

(https://187011.selcdn.ru/thumbnails/photos/2018/06/18/kknbiboxsfhs7rda_1024.jpg)

Kolonnenstraße (28 April 1945)

(https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6614/60413234.f7/0_994a5_51529e12_orig)
Potsdamer Bahnhof

Moltke Bridge (early May)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/05/d2/9105d21d8769e5a114c10719af64bbfe.jpg)
Voßstraße, Neue Reichskanzlei

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/33/0b/fe/330bfe49078dd703cac865954da698b6.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 27-03-2019, 13:03:51
Yeah, I have seen all of these, I like them. I didn't want to use the most known ones but it seems there are not many after all.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 27-03-2019, 14:03:25
From what I've seen, the most recent Berlin pictures (esp. from the Soviet angle) have turned out to be from Balkans - the East Prussia area. And naturally, there are plenty post war pictures starting from early May.

https://en.artbooksonline.eu/art-19050
https://www.panzerwrecks.com/product/panzers-in-berlin/
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: VolkssturmGewehr on 06-04-2019, 07:04:57
I created a thread in the BG42 forum which has less than 10 threads in total. It is the only possibly active place someone could know about the devs. Places where there actually is a conversation about this are from 2008. I will probably never get an answer from someone that ditched the mod.
Then don’t use their content, ”ditched” or not, it is still copyrighted material you are not allowed to use.

Mat, I will not wait a hundred years until a savior modeler arrives. I will release the map as soon as it is ready with whatever assets I have available. After all, I won´t make another map, I just wanted to contribute with something nice.
BGF assets are not available for you without owners permission. Welcome to the world of modding.

A dev from BGF made a post here in 2013: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=18595.60

Quote
yes, this is a horrible resurrection of a dead thread, my apologies...but I did indeed give my permission for anyone to use any files that I created during my dev life on the BF series. I have been out of the BF loop for some time now, so I don't know if anyone is actively modding for BF2 anymore, but if you can use anything I worked on, please feel free to do so.

And Merry Christmas to you all.

Also if we're going to take this to the extreme: there exists content within FH2 being distributed that exists without having received express permission from the original creator(s). Not mentioning what it is, but it is there. If you want to apply US laws, then that applies to both published and unpublished works. Thus one could claim to have created hypothetical content before you did. However who created the content first isn't settled in forums, it's settled in a court of law.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: VolkssturmGewehr on 06-04-2019, 07:04:13

Holy crap I f*cking LOVE these Volkssturm skins. I've been trying to setup a Volkssturm project since 2017 for my co-op maps but I'm no graphics designer and I could never get the skins to look right. I created a co-op version of Seelow with Volkssturm kits for the bots.

I've actually been working on generating a navmesh for your Berlin map and modifying it a bit to make it more bot friendly. Did you make these Volkssturm skins? Could I bug you to send them to me? Volkssturm is one of my favorite parts of WW2 to study about. Would love to incorporate them into my co-op projects. FH2 has a hidden co-op playerbase that I believe to be much larger than realized. I've been working quite hard on it.

Unfortunately my laptop died two weeks ago and now I'm stuck with an ancient AMD Athlon II desktop unit until I have enough saved for a better PC. Thus it takes a week to generate even a small navmesh. Still working on it though. Lost a bunch of my old work/data, not all of it though being I had much backed up yet not all.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 06-04-2019, 21:04:18
That is indeed a good find.

Berlin map is not ready yet though it is in the very last stages. I just have to fix a couple of details, modify a few more textures and make lightmaps final.

If you are making a SP version I'd suggest you to wait for the final version of the map as there might be some changes.

The VS model was taken from a minimod called Warsaw Uprising. I just added the armband and the CMP crew helped me fix the texture. The model's head needs to be modified since it's too big and sticks out of the cap or helmet it wears. All the files are in the map's folder. For the texture check objects_client.zip.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: VolkssturmGewehr on 07-04-2019, 03:04:42
Ah yes, I recognize it from the Warsaw Uprising minimod, but wasn't 100%. The texture with the Volkssturm armband was what I'm was most interested in. I actually tried editing in the armband myself a couple of years ago, but couldn't ever get it to actually appear like that ingame. It looked awful. Yours looks nice though, that style of Volkssturm armband has always been my favorite. Is it in your current release of the Berlin map? The texture with the armband I mean, perhaps I missed it.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 07-04-2019, 09:04:49
Yeah, it is, we playtested it a week ago. The armband texture could be done better. It is a bit too big right now but since the resolution is low it might get hard to read if I made it smaller. I'm leaving it as is for the first release, might fix it when I patch the map some time in the future.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 10-04-2019, 01:04:26
Testing some signs

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Alubat on 10-04-2019, 18:04:31
Nice

No Biergarten or Adult Entertainment ? :-)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 18-04-2019, 18:04:10
A few more

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 18-04-2019, 20:04:55
The Luftschutzraum looks cool. The Schneiderei seems a bit too big, could you make it a tad smaller, would be more realistic imo.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 18-04-2019, 21:04:05
Yeah the Scheiderei one looks strange but the original texture looks strange too. I think I will just remove it, that way of making signs only seems to look fairly good if they are super large like the "Berlin bleibt Deutsch".
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 19-04-2019, 09:04:38

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 19-04-2019, 10:04:14
Nice! The ones with the black/dark background looks really great.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 20-05-2019, 08:05:05
The map is finished

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 20-05-2019, 17:05:43
The map is finished
That's a bold statement  ;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 20-05-2019, 21:05:07
Looks a tad too dark to my taste, but let's see how it plays out. Great work, prepare to do a lot of "afterjobs", though ;)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: RayderPSG on 03-06-2019, 08:06:09
Looks a tad too dark to my taste, but let's see how it plays out. Great work, prepare to do a lot of "afterjobs", though ;)

In fact most of maps in FH2 are too dark IMO. I think Blander tried to represent as faithful as possible the Berlin day. It was too lighter before
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Alubat on 03-06-2019, 21:06:30
(https://i.imgur.com/NAktrPg.jpg)

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 03-06-2019, 22:06:57
I think Blander tried to represent as faithful as possible the Berlin day. It was too lighter before
I don't doubt the good intentions of Blander. But the Berlin day was not that dark ;)

Examples:
(https://i.imgur.com/Cj4S3Hk.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 04-06-2019, 09:06:49
Examples:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/Cj4S3Hk.jpg)

No comments on the first picture... but the 2nd one is a scale model diorama, photoshopped over this image:

(https://mshool.3dn.ru/_ph/17/898050812.jpg)

The weather during the Battle of Berlin was reasonably cold but clear, with both opposing sides wearing long coats and padded jackets/telogreika etc.

(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/column-of-german-pows-on-their-way-to-a-gathering-depot-in-berlin-at-picture-id170970460)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 04-06-2019, 13:06:25
The battle in Berlin lasted from April 25 to May 2 or thereabouts. It’d be hard to convince me there wasn’t at least some clouds overhead at some point in that week :P

I like the skybox. I haven’t tried the new lighting yet, but it can always be brightened up slightly if it’s too dark. It seems like almost an overcast twighlight, and from all the bombings and fighting, it seems appropriate to have a dark haze over the battlefield. But more than that, it’s a nice atmosphere from an artistic standpoint; it makes it truly feel like the last stand of the German Army and it calls back to Berlin streets which is nice imo. I dig it, as long as it proves to be not too dark for gameplay.

Edit: I think overall, if you could find a skybox that was more “smoke covered” and less “overcast” it would be cooler. (Thinking like the images you see of wildfires (https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2018/08/03/ap_18213117908042riverfirephotoofoakhillside_slide-590a527f01d55664abb9521c3824367a76ff0fdf-s800-c85.jpg) creating a haze over the city). But tbh, that might not be possible with the BF2 engine. And this is a fine substitute.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 05-06-2019, 00:06:15
IMO the first skybox I used was the most realistic. People asked me to change it to something darker with absolutely no historical reasons, just for the looks. Now I customized a stock FH2 skybox with better quality though it might look a bit weird because it's a lot more blue but yet the fog is grey color. Changing skybox, fog, light and lightmaps is not that easy, it takes a lot of testing. We'll see what people think about the current settings. I think they give the map a really grim and apocalyptic feel, even though they are not the best in a historical context since I haven't seen any clouds in pictures from the battle of Berlin.

You can see the latest settings in my last pictures, which are not the same as the one Alubat posted.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: CaproGreene on 05-06-2019, 13:06:54
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/reanalysis.php?jaar=1945&maand=4&dag=24&uur=000&var=301&map=6&model=obsde

Temperature Berlin (max./mean/min) Celsius:

april 25.: (14.7/9.4/0.7)
april 26.: (17.2/10.8/2.6)

It was cold.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Alubat on 05-06-2019, 15:06:33
Different weather/skyboxes in each layers 16/32/64 = Problem solved :-)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 05-06-2019, 16:06:45
Different weather/skyboxes in each layers 16/32/64 = Problem solved :-)

This.
"The Berlin Operation '45" by Soviet General Staff describes how the German offensive zones were putting up a "stubborn resistance" during the night (22.00-01.00) of 26-27 April, and how the Red Army conducted counter-operations against these spots, just before the dawn.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Slayer on 06-06-2019, 21:06:20
No comments on the first picture... but the 2nd one is a scale model diorama, photoshopped over this image:
It's a really well done diorama :)

It's your map blander, just pick the skybox you see fit. I thought the first one was the best, because this dark one also makes things less visible from a distance, which is a pity because then we can't see all of the nice work that has been put into this.

The whole "it was grim" thing is lost to me, because other battles were also grim, but we don't give them all a dark sky, do we? But like I said, your map, your call.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 07-06-2019, 10:06:16
It's a really well done diorama :)

Agreed. This is fairly common though, like the following RC model which has been frequently posted on WWII groups as a "real thing":
Spoiler

But it's not just the models, but also outdated color plates, illustrations, captions etc. overall.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 14-06-2019, 09:06:09
16 layer done

Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 14-06-2019, 10:06:43
I like it, very ominous looking. Any plans for the 32?

Personally, I'd love to see little of SU-76M on Hetzer action. 18. Pz.Gren.Div still had 19 Hetzers available (+ another four "on its way"), plus another eight with 9. Fallschirmjäger Div. (report dated 23 April 1945). Couple wrecks have been photographed around Reichstag, like "Thule" from 18. Pz.Gren.Div.:

(http://i66.tinypic.com/302156f.jpg)

and/or maybe even some lend-lease M4? Many were lost in Berlin, as seen here with panzer wrecks collected from Reichstag and Berlin centre area:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/b1/c6/a9b1c6fb2ecc8dbfa1bdcc219d577e21.jpg)
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: blander on 14-06-2019, 15:06:34
The 32 layer was tricky to do because I wanted a full conquest 3 grey flag layout at the start of the round. I tested different tank combinations to make it even and I've found the following combo to work best so far: T-34/76 + ISU-152 vs PzIVH + PantherG.

Trying to "mirror balance" the tanks having only 2 per side is really very difficult, specially considering there is little room in the layer to avoid mainbase camping. I basically want tanks to be able to kill eachother from the front so they don't get locked in the main so easily. The ISU-152 can kill both german tanks in 1 shot. The Panther needs 4 shots to kill the ISU but it is way more versatile so that should compensate the lack of a huge gun.

I would have liked to include a Hetzer and an ISU-122 but I couldn't find proper matchups. I tested lots of combinations including SU-76M, Jagdpanzer IV L/70 and Ferdinand (I've read there was an Elefant fighting in Berlin).

The main problem about the 32 layer is that it's a bit small and flags don't have spawnpoints because everything is too close together. The only place where you can spawn is at the mainbase or on the squadleader of course. I think it would be best balanced without tanks because I fear heavy mainbase camping but on the other hand a Berlin map without tanks sounds a bit too dull.

I'm open for suggestions. I plan on having a clear skybox for the 32 layer.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: nysä on 14-06-2019, 16:06:31
I tested lots of combinations including SU-76M, Jagdpanzer IV L/70 and Ferdinand (I've read there was an Elefant fighting in Berlin).

Regarding the Elefanten in Berlin - the surviving four were used in Zossen as a part of Kampfgruppe "Ritter" and they were in very rough shape, 3/4 being survivors from Italy and "in need of major repairs" (reportedly none survived from the Eastern Front after 1944). At least two were left behind due to mechanical problems as the Red Army was approaching Zossen, and another two Elefanten were abandoned/destroyed in the East of Zossen.
refer: Karlheinz Münch - "Combat History of schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung 653"
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 14-06-2019, 16:06:27
Just a reminder that you can't put too many vehicles (of different type) on your map (doesn't matter which layer) because it will increase already heavy texture load and will make your map unstable.
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: Stubbfan on 14-06-2019, 20:06:48
Just a reminder that you can't put too many vehicles (of different type) on your map (doesn't matter which layer) because it will increase already heavy texture load and will make your map unstable.

What do you mean with it doesn't mean which layer? You mean firing range for example loads all vehicles and weapons in the mod always?
Title: Re: Berlin
Post by: jan_kurator on 14-06-2019, 20:06:59
What I mean by that is that few times when I suggested adding something per one layer only I was quickly told that it apparently loads and increase the texture load anyway, indeed. Although it doesn't make sense to me either, but I'm just repeating after smarter heads here (I am not a mapper after all)  ;)