Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 17:02:28

Title: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 17:02:28
Now this may end up being a controversial one, and I can imagine a host of named people coming out of the woodworks arguing historical facts, engine limitation and Hollywood tactics to show me why my suggestion is baseless, but me being me, I will press on....

Suggestion is, to forget gameplay NOW, and look at what gameplay COULD be - and then, going out and making it so...

FH2, in my opinion, more so than many other shooters has the ability to give players the sense and feel of WW2 - Not the stupid realism that wont fit in the game's scope or will kill fun, but the WW2 feel that can be brought about by allowing players to use the weapons and vehicles of war in the fashion they were inteded, with game mechanics that allow the player be immersed into a believable WW2 experience, without the need for actual scales

How?
A number of factors:
1/ There are things that can be done to make formations move in the WW2 fasion, in cover, but in larger groups, sometimes requires bold tactics like bayonet charges, moving behind armor, suppress-flank tactics and the ww2 equivalent of blow-torch and corkscrew i.e. call in the arty or air-support and move in with infantry....

2/ There is a way to make teamplay, not just about moving together to take an objective, but enjoying the gameplay on account of team tactics and outdoing the enemy's equivalent

3/ There is a way of making each army need to employ varying stategies on account of varying equipment, vehicles and history...

4/ There is a way of having feedback from the environment that makes the player feel what would have been felt in each environment and under combat conditions - Adrenaline, fear, the need to stay alive, the need to work together, the need to retreat....

Now I know I haven't said anything concrete (a far-cry from my nature), but that's the point. I want the community, and the devs to look at these things and see the game holistically to see how they can be achieved. Like I said earlier, it involves making players use believable weapons and vehicles and with game mechanics and restrictions that allow them to use the tactics employed in WWII....

I have already, and others have already, mentioned so many ideas in these forums that can aid this - And some already exist ingame... Its for you all to think of how these can be combined to create a winning game architecture

I dunno about you, but Forgotten Hope 2 can be ALOT more - Rather than compete with PR and the like for mod recognition, I think we can go alot further...

I few final notes on some architectures that don't quite work as they exist now, but could....

1/ Commander position and assets
2/ Ammo boxes and airdrops
3/ The role of aircrafts in the whole scheme of things
4/ Position capture
5/ Static mgs and AT guns
6/ knifes and bayonets
7/ The commo-rose
8/ Smoke
9/ Calling in artillery and the aiming system
10/ Entrenchments
11/ Rifles versus SMGs versus MGs.
12/ Snipers
13/ Deployable weapons


And again, forget the way FH2 exists now, if you can be flexible enough to and think WWII and how these and other game mechanics can - or should - come in to play....

I believe FH2 can, and should, play VERY, VERY differently.


Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 20-02-2011, 17:02:37
There is a way for almost everything you mentioned there, but the real question is "Do the devs really want FH2 to be as real as possible?"

...Cause it seems to me that they kinda don't... They focus heavily on historic accuracy of the maps, equipment, and the looks of everything but I somehow don't believe they want this game to become ultra-realistic with the need of distinctive WWII knowledge to play effectively....

It seems to me they just want it to stay how it is, a somewhat casual WWII experience with shiny graphics and polished maps.


Now don't get me wrong I would like to have everything you said, but it's probably not gonna happen.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: [ret]azreal on 20-02-2011, 17:02:19
I don't really see the suggestion in this post? What are we supposed to do for points 1-13?
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 17:02:43
Not ultra-realism - At all.

moving in large formations, suppress and flank etc, aren't hardcore at all...

It doesn't need to be 'all in the manual' here, but it does have the possibility to be more than 'just another casual WWII title'. And believe it or not, the engine supports it.

@Azreal
Be inspired. There have already been so many suggestions toward gameplay. I for one have made a good number, and many more under-developed aspects already exist ingame. The suggestion here, is to look at the very core philosophy of FH2 and see which concepts can be brought together to make it so. Deviation? maybe, remove SL spawn? maybe, allow larger squad size? etc etc.. I don't neccesarily propose anything concrete. I'm simply saying, can we make FH2 a serious WWII title i.e Not hardcore realsm per se, but 'WWI playing like WWII' trather than 'people playing with WWII'....

Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Alakazou on 20-02-2011, 17:02:10
In anthropology we call that postmodernism. So it look like it's mean something, but it's not the case :). So you can read a text for hours and at the end, it's like you haven't read something.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: G.Drew on 20-02-2011, 17:02:08
Quote
Suggestion is, to forget gameplay NOW, and look at what gameplay COULD be - and then, going out and making it so...

Ok, see you in about 3-4 years.

Honestly, it feels like the work the devs have and are putting into this mod is sometimes is just so fucking unappreciated.

But anyway, on topic: Honestly, there are plenty of things that are food for though, but its different saying 'we should do this, there is a way' and 'we should this, by..'. Frankly the devs do enough thinking on their own without people telling them to think about things with such a general description that just makes this post yet another wall of text.

Final though: Mybe people will think about this, mybe things will happen, but right now there is more than enough things to think about atm.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 17:02:59
sigh... I don't want to result in the classic - DO this, do that... then people come out and say, nein, yes, I agree... hmmm that's interesting - Until the idea falls one by one, and we have too little of it left to allow the real suggestion be fulfilled.

So I'm simply throwing this out to the devs in particular to think about it for themselves, something internal is stronger than something externally suggested.

Whatever we express here becomes simple theorizing, and then the initial post is forgotten for the last post... I dont want that


I'm trying to address the issue from the other end. Not the individual game mechanics, but the bigger picture that combine already discussed-to-death game mechanics.. from BFG tank motion to everything else
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: DLFReporter on 20-02-2011, 18:02:28
I just got an idea!
Djinn, you love writing long texts and how things should work. And it would really be helpful for your idea if you would write an easy to understand manual for gamers to use WW2 tactics. You can't force them, it's still a game, but perhaps some will take a heart in your writing! :)
There have been calls for a new manual, but since the game mechanics have been changing with every release no one got to updating the old one. Wouldn't that be something you can sink your teeth into?
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 18:02:40
I have thought of that. Yes, it is. I would suggest an artist work with me to create diagrams. I can sketch what I want, but i cant use photoshop.

That said some gameplay element do need to be improved to give merit to it.

I will suggest tanghble implementation in my next post - but I fear it would signal the end of this thread, acting as surfaces to peck off at
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: THeTA0123 on 20-02-2011, 19:02:26
Once again djinn, you come up with to long posts wich in the end dont make sense
 ;D
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 20-02-2011, 19:02:26
So Im not the only one who didnt catch the idea (if there was one) in this... suggestion, is it?
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: VonMudra on 20-02-2011, 19:02:56
Yeah, I don't understand what the suggestion is supposed to be either....
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 19:02:35
I'm suggestiing all devs go back to the drawing board regarding FH2 gameplay, considering all suggestions and already existing gameplay aspects, to see if FH2 can't play more like WW2 really did.

In the current design, we cant give enough incentive for teamplay, moving group, suppress-flank etc, however, if they stopped looking at individual concepts, which at this point would be bandages over a headshot wound, but instead looked at a different philosophy of gameplay, they'd know which concepts to tie in to make it happen

For my part, I'm going to start on the game manual, specifically regarding gameplay tactics etc. I will post snipets here and that may spurr the devs to streamline the game design to affor those tactics more.

The main suggestion is: Reconsider overall gameplay. Bug fixing was an entire release - This can be also. Don't need to delay the bulge, but it would require no longer tweaking, and more so overhauling

My manual would be on time to keep everyone understanding this gameplay

Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: VonMudra on 20-02-2011, 19:02:56
The devs have repeatedly said and hinted that gameplay is getting some major overhaul in the next release...how about let the devs handle that and see what happens then -.=.-
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 19:02:46
We can suggest can't we?

Besides, while I don't know that FH2 will be actually played like WW2, its worth suggesting it should be ;)
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 20-02-2011, 19:02:51
How can you play like WW2? What? How?

HYPNOTOAD HYPNOTOAD HYPNOTOAD
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 20:02:21
*sigh*, clearly, what we need here is a less subtle hint...

Ok, consider what kind of strategies really existed in WW2...


Each side was battling over areas, right? Doesn't have to be a flag at all - NOTE

A good rifleman could take out a target at x yards... ah, but we are not all perfect riflemen...and considering that 64 people represent alot larger people - or better yet, a squad of 6 represents a proper squad size of people, then gun balancing may need to change in order to have combat situations that play out like they would have in WWII... Ah, but now how would this affect realistic tactics like suppression-flanking?

perhaps if a suppressed enemy was unable to fire back, there might be no need for deviation for instance...

Now with that in place, alot of doors open - You can have bayonet charges if that side is suppressing the enemy while doing it - AH! but that takes away from real bayonet charges - and if one of the enemy isn't suppressed, he now snipes the charging force with impunity since he isn't affected by the suppression and the bayonet team cannot fire back with knifes on... So we need to look back at gun handling and accuracy....

And while we consider bayonet charges, we now must consider communication - and hence things like the radio, commander orders and how that works into gameplay....

Have we ruled out othe use of a radioman kit? What are the ways that can be implemented?

etc, etc

I'm not suggesting a single gameplay mechanic - just given a random example of how that can be implemented. I could decide to say, here is suggestion A, B, c.. but then that leaves the whole suggestion open to individual idea dissection, and hence a loss to the whole thing from the fall of 1 or 2 aspects...

I want people to look at it the other way... Top down.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: VonMudra on 20-02-2011, 20:02:37
No, you're looking at making a completely brand new mod from the ground up.  Any kind of these major gameplay changes would mean all maps would have to be redone to fit said gameplay changes.  All weapons, everything would need to be changed, for the slight idea that maybe this will be better, but the much greater and more possible idea that it will fail and all be a great waste of time.

So no.  Let the devs be.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 20:02:16
No, I'm not suggesting that.

FH2 is not a blank pallet. If it were, then yes, it would be possible to say, it would be a new mod. But what makes FH2 FH2 is in part the map layout and map size. So whatever theory the devs cook up to do with gameplay representing WWII would have to based on that non-changeable value.

Changes to how weapons work... well... that happens all the time already, doesn't it?


Think,
Currently, if you wanted to a cynic, you could say that gameplay only changes slightly no matter the theater. that adding the Soviets would be no different from Shermans in Southern France, only cosmetically different. And you would be in part right

Tanks handle simplistically, the gameplay isn't so tied in with the environment that it make a different whether the trees are figs or fern and if the tanks are Shermans or T34s

With a gameplay that makes people play ALOT more like WWII, this would change - Doesn't require an overhaul of the current game - Just the philosophy, and hence the rebalancing and game-mechanics that impact the game.

Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: THeTA0123 on 20-02-2011, 21:02:32
Dont try to fix

what issent broken
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 21:02:03
Well, I have said everything I wanted to say...

I'm done here
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Josh094 on 20-02-2011, 21:02:40
I like what you're suggesting Djinn.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 20-02-2011, 21:02:42
thanks. You're the first.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Natty on 21-02-2011, 08:02:07
My opinion (which is mine, and mine alone) is that if a server has 64 players on it, there are 64 different versions of what "WW2" is supposed to be. You will have one guy who has read 50 books and seen 50 documentaries about WW2, next to a guy who thinks SPR is cool and have only played Wolfenstein before.

Between them is the spectrum of preconceptions you need to consider when designing.

Therefor it's best for us to leave it as open as possible for personal interpretations, so anyone can pick up the mod, and enjoy "WW2" in his own way.

The second we start to apply various enforced behaviours based on our own interpretations of what WW2 should be played out like, we will find ourselves in a very tricky spot as devteam. On one side we must cater towards a minority of a minority (players who actually think in these terms, for ex; how soldiers behave) and on the other hand we must explain all the restrictions for people who are just here for some epic fun.

That is what makes development hard; the finetuned grey areas in design. Where experience happens.

Anyone can open up some wiki links and paste in values from ww2 sites in to his mod, no need to think in experience terms or accept the rules of the game. but will that be fun playing?

Anyone can also just add whatever numbers he wants that he thinks will play best, but that might make it completely unrealistic (for example a pistol killing a tank).

Therefor it's "best" (safest, most stabile, easiest to iterate upon) to stick with a design you (we) feel most comfortable with, and leave the immersion-interpretation up to the players. We can never ever make the most hardcore WW2 fans totally pleased, and we will never be able to make the mod a pure perfect fun shooter that will apply to everybody, we need to find the sweet-spot in the middle, and tbh, I think we are well on our way to do that for the next patch
 8)
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: RN_Max on 21-02-2011, 08:02:11
Your notions are laudable Djinn and I'm sure they will be and already are considered points.

However, I must say that Natty has put the developers' view across rather well.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 21-02-2011, 13:02:39
thanks. You're the first.

Hey! I said I'd love to have all of that too, and I think most of your suggestions are great! I just said it isn't probably to happen... Seeing as the devs try to make everyone happy, by making a fun game, open to a wide(r) audience
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: SiCaRiO on 21-02-2011, 13:02:40
the wider audience is relative, people say realism doesnt atrack people yet PR has a huge player base, same as red orchestra.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: TigerAce on 21-02-2011, 13:02:56
the wider audience is relative, people say realism doesnt atrack people yet PR has a huge player base, same as red orchestra.
Red orchestra is perfectly balanced between realism and gameplay, and isn't really "forcing" you to play a certain way. PR is popular mostly 'cause a bunch of people want to act out there favourite war movies or want to play a game where you work together and hardly ever shoot at anything. I understand that some people find this fun, but I really wish it didn't have all these rules that force you to play a certain way. Particular the fact that you can't use the top mounted mg's in tanks without a driver.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Torenico on 21-02-2011, 14:02:58
the wider audience is relative, people say realism doesnt atrack people yet PR has a huge player base, same as red orchestra.

People play PR because currently its the only mod with Teamwork on Public Servers. To be honest not so many people play PR because its Realistic.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: phillip on 21-02-2011, 15:02:01
Social gamimg >>>>>> Every other type of gaming, even it it is mad teamwork.

TF2 is social part, people talk, have fun.  Some don't, but many do.  Communication.  Not alot in the way of teamwork as viewed by many here.  PR has forced communication by requiring VOIP and squad based tactics.  Players talk to eachother to accomplish objectives.  For whatever reason, people don't talk in FH2.  It's a very quiet and alone game for the most part.  When you can get in a squad that communicates, the fun goes up 762%.  The tournaments demonstrate that even more with squads that play together and talk together for weeks on end.  Probably also why you see two tournaments will filled servers on Friday and Saturday, but many of those players don't play pubbie.  A quiet game of FH2 sucks compared to one with chatter.  Clans also can provide a social nature to pubbie gaming, but the FH2 clan scene is almost non-existent.

Teamwork and Realism have little to do with it, I think.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Beaufort on 21-02-2011, 16:02:20
Are you saying public servers don't work because players don't use VOIP ? BS. ::)
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Lightning on 21-02-2011, 16:02:28
BS. ::)
"BS" is not a valid argument in a discussion.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Beaufort on 21-02-2011, 16:02:23
A quiet game of FH2 sucks compared to one with chatter.

VOIP roxxxxxx !!

that's hardly an argument either...
_____________________________
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Lightning on 21-02-2011, 16:02:34
Quoting 5% of someone's post and then claiming it has no arguments is not a valid argument either.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Cory the Otter on 21-02-2011, 17:02:13
Lightning: Dreamcrusher, future High School Debate teacher??
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Beaufort on 21-02-2011, 17:02:00
VOIP roxxxxx in tourney, VOIP roxxxxxxx, period ! No VOIP suxxxxxxxx !

I dare you to find another argument in his post.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 21-02-2011, 17:02:38
*Wakes from his sleep*
Can we go off the PR/FH2 bitching... please.

When they say 'a wider audience', they don't just mean larger numbers of people, they mean larger numbers from different demographics.

Fh2 tries not to alienate groups. By having people with a decent amount of need for realism and people with no care for realism playing, but the need for fast-fun, then you've covered a large base - It doesn't always equal a larger group than focusing on a single demographic - Its like saying the A n B always greater than the set of A, which is not true....

Now stop doing things that get my thread locked - Quit the FH/PR/ COD arguments
*Goes back to sleep*
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: TheRevoluzer on 21-02-2011, 18:02:46
A concrete suggestion from me:

I recently bought the game "Brothers in Arms" and the shootouts are great!
You have no uber-accurate rifle and you are not an elite-sniper that doesn't need to breath.
The fights feel epic because you actually have some decent firefights because you really have no OneShot - OneHit but the realistic damage persists.
Surpression has an influence on your weapon sway and the size of your fire cone and you can actually supress effectively with every rifle, not only wit MGs.
It's a pity, that  you can't do such a cover system, so I won't suggest it  ;)

I have no clue how less accuracy would affect the overall gameplay and the firefights but I like to see longer battles and not just so 1 Secondactions like: enemy-boom-dead

I hope you get what I tried to suggest

Regards TheRevoluzer
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Ts4EVER on 21-02-2011, 18:02:36
In BiA rifles are scaled to be accurate over 10m. That is not realistic by any means.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: TheRevoluzer on 21-02-2011, 18:02:30
In BiA rifles are scaled to be accurate over 10m. That is not realistic by any means.

I don't want BIA-gameplay but longer firefights
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 21-02-2011, 18:02:57
In BiA rifles are scaled to be accurate over 10m. That is not realistic by any means.

I don't want BIA-gameplay but longer firefights

AFAIK that's only possible by applying unreal amounts of deviation or getting rid of the "1shot1kill" gameplay and bringing the game back to BF2 and BFH levels...

Another way would be making people actually fear dying... but I don't know how do we do that?
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Ts4EVER on 21-02-2011, 18:02:09
The best way would be designing some long range combat maps for people who enjoy stuff like that. Because most of the shootouts in Fh2 happen over about 75m at most. Obviously close combat like that is over quickly.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Natty on 21-02-2011, 20:02:25
the wider audience is relative, people say realism doesnt atrack people yet PR has a huge player base, same as red orchestra.

People play PR because it is a natural extension of BF2, not because it is "realism".
If I was a "vanilla" BF2 player, I would also have stopped playing vanilla and only play PR nowadays, as BF2 is 6 years old.
However... soon BF3 comes out, and we enter a new "generation" of online PC shootergames. PR will then feel very old and obsolete, even though they have taken the BF2 game experience quite far, with their optics and various technical add-ons. 8)

Red Orchestra has less players than FH2 btw, 75 people playing right now
http://www.game-monitor.com/search.php?game=ro

Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Ts4EVER on 21-02-2011, 20:02:00
Really? damn
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: TheRevoluzer on 21-02-2011, 21:02:23
@Natty

You forgot the darkest hour mod!
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 21-02-2011, 22:02:20
PR 1 week ago on Sunday at around 22:00 GMT+2 till 00:00 GMT+2


9+ Full servers of 64 people, all of which were public.Add 2-3 locked ones to that and you have around 600 players on one night.And i ask...Why not in FH2 too? What is the difference that makes PR so populated and not FH2 ? Sorry if this is thread hijack too much but i just want to speak with numbers towards Natty.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Seth_Soldier on 21-02-2011, 22:02:59
and RO need to be compare to fh1 in terms of longevity ...

Personnaly i've enough of those "new generation of player". They've just pushed video gaming into uber scripting game.
I've enough of modding for a ww2 mod where i'm told that we shouldn't care about ww2 if people have fun.
WW2 is the fun, ww2 is the spirit. I certainly don't want to feel nazi but i would love to see blitzkrieg teamplay with assault wave, not those moron spawn squad.

I could do a long post but it wouldn't happened.

I would sum up that and say that there is people who you like to play and learn with the mg30(t) and the other who doesn't care because it's just an other lmg gun and 'add nothing to the game'
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 21-02-2011, 22:02:55
Personnaly i've enough of those "new generation of player". They've just pushed video gaming into uber scripting game.
I've enough .... where i'm told that we shouldn't care about ww2 if people have fun.
WW2 is the fun, ww2 is the spirit. I certainly don't want to feel nazi but i would love to see blitzkrieg teamplay with assault wave, not those moron spawn squad.


This

I want people to believe its actually possible to make a game where you experience WWII and enjoy it for how it felt and was executed, rather than the... oh, no its impossible, we need to make it uber-realistic for that...

Running around with m1 garands isn't WWII in itself, having to hide in a bush and hope you don't get sniped by any of the other 32 players ISN'T WW2, tanks standing still on El Alamein and waiting to snipe an inch of turret of an enemy tank when it reveals itself ISN'T WWII

Frankly, I think we've settled, and claimed all else is impossible. If any engine, if any game, if any dev team can, this one can - Unless, perhaps, all those who made Battlefield 1942 into the most epic WWII experience possible in a sandbox combined-arms game, boldly covering the entire gamut of the war have all gone - Because that worked for THAT engine - And yes, FH2 has pushed the gameplay further up, but I think it can push further - ALOT further.

Unless, we are really expecting titles like Call of Duty, medal of honor and Battlefield to do that - Personally, I think they've left that period in history altogether, and until the bucks say so, they wont go back. Its FH2 - or no one else, tbh... just my honest opinion... We can say, well... no need to move out of our comfort zone, or we can dare to be bold


Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: hankypanky on 21-02-2011, 23:02:03
Do you honestly think PR = modern warfare?
I cannot begin to list all the unrealistic things in PR, but people act and play it as a simulator.
Is it fun? Yes! 
Is it well made? Yes!
Is it really realistic? NO!

The most laughable thing is the in PR is the Insurgency mode, it plays like a parody of real life, for a matter of fact so does the whole game. If you want realism your going to have to hit the ArmA games, or wait for PR2. 

I don't want to slam PR but lets face it, the BF2 engine cannot realistically portray WW2 or  large realistic battles for that matter. Massive assaults with tanks, arty, and planes? Supply lines? Moral? Fuel? Accurate plane and ballistics physics? All of these cannot be done in the BF2 engine. Hell look at PR with 128 players, it still plays like 64 people on crack.

So what is the point of my post? There is nothing the FH2 devs can really do to provide for you guys what is essentially a combat sim. 

My two cents, good day.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 21-02-2011, 23:02:51
SIGH! Who the fuck is asking for a combat SIM?!

Does saying, tweak the very core of the game to allow it to play like WW2 = WWII sim? NO!

In EVERY single post I clearly say, its NOT about 'realism'

Why are we still saying PR, PR, fuckin' PR?!

I'm talking about the very gameplay elements we suggest every single day on these forums - I just don't want to mention a particular one because it will be dissected in the same way the simple term 'make FH2 play like WWII' is being innacurately dissected until the message is lost. I want the devs to go to the core of the game design and see what game mechanics (suggested or completely novel) they can employ, combine and create to make it so...

I seriously don't think FH2 now plays in ANY fashion that make it a WWII game in its truest form - Has NOTHING TO do with realism - Has more to do with player experience. Running around with a mouser, flying a stuka, driving a Tiger  - These do NOT make the gameplay anything like WWII... Its how these elements combine together


I already hinted at certain things in my first post, maybe I need to be clearer....

Do we really need to cap flags to represent area-capture in WWII? I personally feel the cap area should be an entire block of the map, and the map marked to show these blocks; eack one adjacent to the next. Enter it, and it goes instantly gray - The area is no longer secure. It will ONLY go go blue or red if every enemy in that area is removed. It will require digging in, holding off enemy counter-attacks and preventing them from coming into that sector or else your reinforcement ceases.

That too would require changes to make that form of masses strategy feasible.

This a VERY loose idea... but that's a completely different way of using the 'flag cap' system. It still uses the BF2 engine, but its more supportive of RL situations - Not 'realism'.  An area isn't secure until no enemy is in it - Not one.


Again, just a loose idea - But I want you to see the way of thinking I'm hoping people can employ here - You need to see things 4-dimentionally here

Think totally outside the box
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Torenico on 22-02-2011, 00:02:56
I think, you should wait for the next patch Djinn, THEN you can complaint all you want about how bad FH2 battles are.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: TheRevoluzer on 22-02-2011, 01:02:57
I think, you should wait for the next patch Djinn, THEN you can complaint all you want about how bad FH2 battles are.

Stuff for updates, so the people see something new and maybe some suggestions get redundant
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Kubador on 22-02-2011, 05:02:32
I wanted to write down a whole esay on all that silly way of thinking you have my little rastaman but I'll keep it short:

Get real! Learn something that's useful for modding and I don't want to hear any crap that you can't because everyone who can read can learn - it just takes time and work.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 22-02-2011, 06:02:32
Yessah! Will do

Wont be use to anyone any time soon, but someday. For now, however, please indulge me :-)
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: hankypanky on 22-02-2011, 07:02:31
I have a solution. I will buy a Panzer IV and attack the white house, that is the closet thing to real WW2 as I will be able to get.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Torenico on 22-02-2011, 07:02:24
The closest thing to WW2 is Reenactment :)
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: VonMudra on 22-02-2011, 07:02:42
The closest thing to WW2 is Reenactment :)

And most people, honestly, aren't up for spending 2000+ on the impression, plus hundreds of dollars in ammo, food, gas, and battle fees every year ;)
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Natty on 22-02-2011, 08:02:20
What is the difference that makes PR so populated and not FH2 ?

Obviously I don't know the real answer to this question, as there is no real answer. I do have a theory though;

[/list][/list][/list][/list]
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Thorondor123 on 22-02-2011, 11:02:24

just a theory... 8)
A hypothesis, actually.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 22-02-2011, 15:02:07

WW2 is not a compelling enough "theme" to install a 4gb mod for most people. It's done in too many video games and unless the game play is totally unique or it offers some deep persistance system or hardcore teamplay, people will not be able to see pass the expiring date on the actual game they launch.


Well maybe you (as the devs, I mean) should start working on those "totally unique gameplay or deep persistance system or hardcore teamplay" then... :P

I'm not saying you're doing a bad job, in fact I admire all the hard work that has been put in this mod, but it seems to me it still lacks some "new features"... Sure it has awesome graphics, excellent historic accuracy but the gameplay still plays out a little too much like BF2...(as in you spawn, run or drive around for a bit, cap some flags and eventually win by spawnkilling the enemy at their main/1st flag). It lack something new and different... Of course push mode has offered some concentrated action and ceased the back capping but I still feel it's a bit lacking.

Maybe it's not the all devs' fault, maybe it's all in the community (maybe that's why tournaments are so popular) but I find it hard to believe that devs don't have some nice ideas to "spice up" the gameplay.

And about your dying out mod theory, we got to take a look at the big picture, sure gamers are moving to newer games, but some of them also come back disappointed... Also new gamers are made every day... Hell I'm a newcomer, I bought my new rig mainly to play FH, not for some new generation games as they all started to feel exactly the same for me... Specially with the focus on the modern part of history.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 22-02-2011, 15:02:21
Exactly my point.

FH1 had the ability (HAS) to be a timeless classic because it has just so many levels - Practically all aspects of WWII is covered in it - And the game did push the envelope on realism compared to most games of its time.

FH2 doesn't. In as much as it is my favorite game, and I think the devs are doing an incredibly good job of it, it actually regresses to a simpler form - Especially with succesive releases. It may have had more ambitious plans in 2.0, but somewhere along the line it seeems to have settled for a more well-trod path.

I simply feel, it can be alot more radical in its gameplay while remaining true to FH ideas - Fun with a shallow/ low learning curve but with enough to make relatively hardcore WWII fans satisfied - AND more importantly, a gameplay that actually has people experiencing WWII more like itself - Doesn't require forced constraints - Does require a change in the underlying philosophy though regarding how to employ current and future game mechanics - Like I said, the very idea of a capture-point, just one example.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Lightning on 22-02-2011, 16:02:51
I totally agree. Where are the new feature?! Features like player-controlled artillery, limited classes, multiple weapons per class, deployable weapons, different spawn points per team, maps with weather, flamethrowers, mobile anti-tank guns, mobile player-controlled artillery, bleeding, static guns that don't respawn but which you need to repair, weapons that share ammo count!? Where are they?!

Oh and FH1 was so realistic. It had boats!
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Vicious on 22-02-2011, 16:02:51
Djinn I've been right there with you on many things but your going too far on this suggestion. Learn to map and put that passion to work. Ideas are always paramount to work, but work is required. Go work.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 22-02-2011, 16:02:58
I totally agree. Where are the new feature?! Features like player-controlled artillery, limited classes, multiple weapons per class, deployable weapons, different spawn points per team, maps with weather, flamethrowers, mobile anti-tank guns, mobile player-controlled artillery, bleeding, static guns that don't respawn but which you need to repair, weapons that share ammo count!? Where are they?!

Oh and FH1 was so realistic. It had boats!

Now you're just overreacting... I didn't say there aren't any new features I just said they could be improved further and the effect of some of those features you mentioned on gameplay is minimal... Also half of those already existed in FH1 (player-controlled artillery, multiple weapons per class, deployable weapons,  different spawn points per team, maps with weather, flamethrowers, mobile anti-tank guns, mobile player-controlled artillery)...  I really think devs should consider adding some new ones, or at least considering new ones... Almost all suggestions I have read recently got a "that's a no-no" or "I don't see anything interesting in that" from the devs.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Lightning on 22-02-2011, 16:02:23
That's because we have 1 effective coder and he has about 100 vehicles and weapons still to export, of which he did 2 in the past month.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 22-02-2011, 17:02:20
That's because we have 1 effective coder and he has about 100 vehicles and weapons still to export, of which he did 2 in the past month.

Oh, that's too bad. Well then let's hope the team gets bigger in the future!

I'm still new and have lots to learn (so therefore I can wait to see how the mod will shape up in the future ;)) Maybe I'll even join the team some day if I find the time - and patience to learn all the stuff needed to work on this great mod.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: SchwererGustav on 23-02-2011, 00:02:07
How about longer spawn times so you can have REAL waves and no SL spawn this would make the game much more interresting im my opinion.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 23-02-2011, 01:02:05
I for one do not support longer spawn time or non-SL spawning. Although I can understand where you are coming from, Natty is usually right about alot of things regarding gameplay - Although I almost never agree with his final conclusion. Like myself, he must have great knowledge in game theory. One part of this is, feedback needs to be proportional to the action that caused it.

It goes as low down as sound feedback or screen flashes etc, but it also gets to more complicated things like spawn-time in relation to a death. Spawn time in Battlefield series has never imo, been about sanctioning the player, but depicting spawn waves.

Personally, I'd even reduce it 5 or 10 seconds. When a player stops and needs to watch the number counting down, you know you're doing something wrong, imo.


SL spawn is used to depict realistic squad size. It has been estimated that by the team a good squad leader is dead, he will have spawned about a realistic sized squad per combat situation - Don't forget, in low-combat action and during fighting breaks, there would be replacements, which are also accounted for in spawn rate. Coupled with a good spawn-time, this works quite fine. It's like crosshairs - It may seem unrealistic - But it actually represents an even more realistic aspect of warfare than were it not in...



Some of my own thoughts to improve gameplay (Said in brief so as not to get the thread focused on each per se but rather to inspire thought),
1/ Realistic tank motion, damage and handling to make any reasonable tank life based on coordination eg. BGF tank motion, Arrow key turret control, multiple-speeds on tanks and other vehicles, improved damage system.

2/ Suppression effect - Not more blur, but inclusion of camera-shake to throw off the suppressee's aim more and more under suppression, so it becomes a feasible tactic to fix the enemy and flank him.

3/ Deviation over range using 'breath' from mg-aim margins - Most of the silliest kills imo, are distant shots from players with the lowest ping from great ranges on account of pixel-perfect-aim. This idea wont affect average range combat, but will make such shots partly based on lack rather than simply principles. Using margins also gives a clear reason for the deviation rather than random deviation. You will notice players moving in the open more and in large force, and sniping will become 'special' and a notable threat to a force who identifies it instantly.

4/ A robust commo-rose and voice overs - Its a biggie, but with a commo-rose that affords alot of actions in a clean design, perhaps with hand motion for some actions like suppress, flank, hold etc, you get not just immersion, but a system that makes simple communication by most players (as on average 1 man in 2 squads on HSLAN uses VOIP), possible using the default comm. aparatus

5/ Voice over/ radio over dichotomy - A special radio man pickup kit with a radius that allows SL in that radius having radio over whether or not the kit-user is dead. All other infantry chatter is voice over. Radio overs can also be heard only by people who can in turn use radios i.e the SL with radio, commander, vehicle users etc... Even hull gunners etc would still use voice over and scouts will only use radio in calling spots.

6/Commander assets - Commanders having various forms of arty, smoke, flare etc which they can call in so that playing commander in FH2 is like playing World in conflict.

7/ Rougher (not slower) traverse for all turrets and turn-able vehicles above hand-held weapons - When an 88, AA gun, AT gun, tank turret moves, it pushes on a bit by itself unless the user compensates by simply tapping, slowing its turn or moving the opposite way to make them more mechanical and hence making AT fire less pixel-shot.

8/Adoption of mummble, to make sure Voice, and specifically, proximity voice is imgame, making players constrained to the rules of real world commincation

9/ Removal of text-communication altogether - This requires the other 2 forms of communication are robust enough.

10/Documented gameplay strategy guide (My department) - A succinct guide with diagrams (perhaps also as video) that gives each side unique playing strategies that they can use depending on the situation. Neccesity being the mother of invention, players would see the proven reason why moving in force is better than moving solo in smaller groups.

In fact, this already exists, except people make it up as they go, so its employed haphazardly, but ever noted how a team moves in force desperately when they are under 10frags, and bulldoze everything in their way, but only too late. We just need people to know it works - and design side-specific versions: Blitz-Krieg for Germans, Red army human waves, bayonet charges for Japanese, slit trench defense for Brits, etc - its not about just saying 'oh you can do this or that', its about the logical use of it eg. A bayonet charge is stupid cannonfodder without men firing in the rear, or a large enough charging force versus a small enemy. Even without having read this, you will see most people employing it and would find your place by observation

11/ More practical use for under-developed game mechanics - Supply drops or crates will work best where there are none and supplies can ACTUALLY run out without them, voice-versus-radio overs as said, commander's having a bigger role as said, a more robust damage system esp. for vehicles, more dynamic or robust flag-cap system to expand the compexity of maps based on simply a more solid cap system i.e not just about capping that 20m flag radius - So that theaters feel different, even though they employ the same essential game design..

12/ A more complex flag cap - Now this is a big one. With flag caps being large areas of the map, and them being 2 types i.e small zones where a flag is lost immediately a single enemy is in its zone, and major zones, where it takes all defenders being removed to cap - So you get a more persistent axis of advance, besides the effect of Push.

A side would then have the time to defend major cap areas and send small parties to cap the small ones eg. small one = a house, a street, a town square, a church, while the major ones may be areas behind the town, a village some way off etc - Cap areas will NEVER be an entire town - That will consist of several cap areas.

The map will break up the cap areas in colour blocks of red, blue and white adjecent patches depending on who owns it, and many wouldnt need flags either on the map or in the game world - Flag areas would be key strategic areas that cause bleed, irrespective of how many flags the enemy has. you can then have bleed on both sides depending on what flag is held (Most would just have one of a few flags).

The effect will be that, sides would have that major objective, rather than equal merit flag zones, and may be disadvantaged depending on which flag is lost...The system is easily implementable on current maps i.e not easy to setup, but wouldn't require a new type of map.


These are just my 2-cents...


I figured I HAD to say it eventually before I said no more of it, so I have. A key eye may realize that many of these overlap in one way or the other: Besides an AT gun having harder traversal, it can be suppressed (camera shake) by simple mg fire of the tank to cause it to fire a tad off target unless it already had the target in sight and the target was moving straight at it...

The combined effect, among other unmentioned suggestions and others anyone else can come up with, are geared towards a more WWII gameplay (Not realism) - Each playing a part on the whole, rather than just being individual GOOD IDEAS.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: [ret]azreal on 23-02-2011, 02:02:53
I'm not sure I completely understand #5.

And as for #1. Unfortunately BGF tank acceleration has one big bug. The acceleration works great, but when you accelerate for a small bit, turn for 5 seconds, and then try to accelerate forward again, the tank lurches forward, mimicking FH2's current acceleration.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: :| Hi on 23-02-2011, 05:02:21
Can we just lock this thread and pretend all is right with the world?
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 23-02-2011, 07:02:09
@Azreal
Number 5 means, there will be a pickup kit (Generally a bit more than sniper kits, but not too many, say about 3 or 4 at the main bases) which can be taken by anyone. What it does is to cast a radius within which a squad leader or commander using his commo-rose will enjoy radio-overs rather than his default voice-overs. Even if the wearer of the kit is killed, until it disappears, the SL in that area will still enjoy radio-over until it does.

But it means the SL needs to be in range of it. The radius may be about the average size a 6-man squad covers or a bit less.

The radioman himself has no special ability he can use. He's just another rifleman. With a smaller commo-rose, even as exists now, only SL and commander will have the commo-rose options that are radiod-over, so no one else in the squad will benefit from the radioman either....


Radio-overs will also be only used by the following classes:
Tank commander/driver, SL and commander in radio range, commander with commander assets, pilots, other vehicles except GPs.

Auxilliary roles like hull mg gunners in tanks etc will NOT have radio overs, but voice overs like everyone else, and scouts will only have the sole privilege (SL will not have this, being able to call out spots only with a radio man in range) of being able to call out spots without the need for a radioman, but they cannot communicate via radio otherwise.

I would personally have scouts being limited kits, making their role even more vital.


Also, my suggestion regarding BGF tank motion has always been to try to tweak it to make it even better. Besides a small bug that makes tanks move as odd as they do now is better than them being like that all day. I also once said, and a BGF dev agreed with me, this code could also work to make planes handle more realistically with stall etc... It does need to be tweaked for them though.

@:| Hi
my suggestion, avert your eyes and it will dissapear to you forever ;-)

Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Lightning on 23-02-2011, 08:02:25
Djinn, we have, in general, discussed these ideas (about two months ago) and, of the ones we think are good (roughly 1, 3 and 6), we will be working on. At the moment though, we only have enough coders to do one of these things (well, maybe more like half of one thing), so we are currently only working on 1.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 23-02-2011, 08:02:35
I'm glad the devs are are aware. That is all I wanted with this.

thank you :-)
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 23-02-2011, 15:02:40
Djinn, we have, in general, discussed these ideas (about two months ago) and, of the ones we think are good (roughly 1, 3 and 6), we will be working on. At the moment though, we only have enough coders to do one of these things (well, maybe more like half of one thing), so we are currently only working on 1.

I like what I see...
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: AlexS66 on 23-02-2011, 17:02:59
I like what you're suggesting Djinn.

Second.

it sounds reasonable enough
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Atkins on 05-03-2011, 09:03:37
If you haven't yet noticed, there are some PR community members that are planning a PR:WW2 stuff:
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-pr-bf2-community-modding/94324-community-made-pr-ww2.html

It kinda makes more sense to do a WW2 mod/add-on for PR than a FH2 realism/immersion mod, cos even if you pull off a mod for FH2, there just won't be enough players to man some mini-mod servers. On the other hand PR has 10 times the more players, so they might even be able to pull it off...
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-03-2011, 09:03:46
I doubt that mod will be going anywhere. Look at the end of the thread, the people attempting to do this are basically amateurs without much of a plan or know how.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 05-03-2011, 09:03:54
Its not a reality-mod I've been suggesting though... Its a change in gear
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Atkins on 05-03-2011, 10:03:07
I doubt that mod will be going anywhere. Look at the end of the thread, the people attempting to do this are basically amateurs without much of a plan or know how.

Everybody has to start somewhere, right?

I would imagine that there is demand for somewhat realistic/immersive WW2 game with 3D voip and I would not wonder if some RnL and DH clans would expand to that once they realize that they can act out their realism stuff more intensively in that kind of environment. 
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-03-2011, 10:03:55
there may be a demand, but thaqt doesn't mean that the people in that thread have any kind of skill to fullfill it.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Atkins on 05-03-2011, 10:03:21
there may be a demand, but thaqt doesn't mean that the people in that thread have any kind of skill to fullfill it.

That might be true which was part of the reason to post this stuff here, if someone with interest and skill might take part in that project.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Ts4EVER on 05-03-2011, 10:03:54
In that case he would probably rather take part in FH2, where he is among other people with interest and skill ;)

And don't get me wrong, if the actual PR devs were behind this I am sure they could pull it off, even if it required stuff they have never done, like new player models and extensive new static work. But look at those "community factions" they have in there. I mean, what are those? Some handweapons, a few vehicles and a soldier reskin? The FH2 devs could probably finish one of those in 3 months or less, yet these things take ages and most of them are never released by the people starting them. And now they want to make an extensive mod like a ww2 conversion? Unlikely.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Atkins on 05-03-2011, 10:03:34
In that case he would probably rather take part in FH2, where he is among other people with interest and skill ;)

Isn't it quite obvious that FH2 is not going to be any more realistic that it now is. So if someone wants to have something more, like Vicious, well perhaps they could check that PR stuff out.

And i am not sure how extensive that ww2 mod would be. I would imagine that it would make sense to make it like any other faction, just new skins, few more weapons and perhaps use some known maps if it is allowed at first and later add tanks and what not...
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: djinn on 05-03-2011, 11:03:51
God! People! My thread isnt a pr thread. Why dont you find a 'make fh2 like pr' thread and use that?!
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Atkins on 05-03-2011, 11:03:39
Cos a PR:WW2 would play out more like WW2 then you can ever try forcing FH2 to do.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Thorondor123 on 05-03-2011, 11:03:48
Remind me again, which one was the WWII. The one with battles with hundreds of thousand of soldiers and causalities up to tens of thousands, or the one with small groups of people having casual skirmishes every other day.

PR with WWII weapons would not be more like WWII than FH2. IT would be like... PR with WWII weapons.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Atkins on 05-03-2011, 12:03:49
Last time i checked FH2 didnt have hundreds of thousand soldiers in-game.
After all this arguments boils down to how everyone perceives WW2 to be like and which aspects they want to emphasize. I could now list features that i don't see fitting WW2 theme but I rather not...
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Thorondor123 on 05-03-2011, 12:03:19
Last time i checked FH2 didnt have hundreds of thousand soldiers in-game.
Pretty damn closer than PR gameplay will ever be.

What I'm saying is, that WWII was total war. FH2 represents Larger battles better than PR
PR:WWII would work better for Commando or SOE operations, I guess.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: Seth_Soldier on 05-03-2011, 12:03:42
Please don't hijack Djinn thread. Create a new one if you want to dicuss about it.
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: LuckyOne on 05-03-2011, 15:03:38
Last time i checked FH2 didnt have hundreds of thousand soldiers in-game.

http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=13947.90

Comes pretty close...
Title: Re: Having FH2 really playing like WW2
Post by: THeTA0123 on 05-03-2011, 15:03:42
Funny how those PR people can only bring the same argument over and over