Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: Potilas on 09-10-2010, 17:10:12

Title: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Potilas on 09-10-2010, 17:10:12
Being a commander is not very helpful nowdays. Off border artilleries are mostly gone. Cant do really much that drop supply crates. I have tried, belive me. Secondly it is boring. No suprice that commander seat is not fulfilled ever. If you have looked pr0.95 mortar tutorial you know what kind of system im talking about. Difference is that instead of operator the commander can send coordinates. There would be not normal spotter bird eye view for this kind of spotting. So my suggestion is direct copy of pr mechanic, but nobody owns invention in bf2 modding scene i belive. Im sorry that i have to bring up arch enemy pr here again.

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f196-pr-highlights/86805-deployable-mortars-update-tutorial.html
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: DLFReporter on 09-10-2010, 17:10:18
... So my suggestion is direct copy of pr mechanic, but nobody owns invention in bf2 modding scene i belive...

One should generally ask for permission to use an asset. It belongs to the good tone.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: [ret]azreal on 10-10-2010, 00:10:14
I personally wish we had a line of comms with the PR team so that we could figure out how they've tweaked the commander role, cause you are right in one aspect; nobody likes being commander. In a perfect world, I wish we could add in off-map mortars a bit more, and give the UAV option back, but tweaked to be a scout plane rather than a Predator. All sorts of possibilities.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Natty on 10-10-2010, 02:10:33
What is the difference between PRs mortar and FH2 mortar? Seems very alike looking at that tutorial. you get a spot, align the two wheels and fire, or?

What exactly would the commanders "coordinates" be?

I agree with you though; Commander is a dead role in FH2. Needs something, but sitting in space and shell stuff is imo not the solution.

Also, PR is for sure not our enemy, dont know where you got that idea... it is a great mod

Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 10-10-2010, 02:10:07
As it si now the commander role only takes up space imo. Perhaps even remove it or replace it with a special "forward observer" role that specialises in calling in off map artillery but is on the map actively spotting instead of sitting back at some radio being bored.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: sn00x on 10-10-2010, 03:10:33
would be nice if the commander could give spots for arty
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Kelmola on 10-10-2010, 03:10:24
would be nice if the commander could give spots for arty
This. Commander clicks on map, said click appears as a regular spot to arty. Although, in order not to make recon class totally useless, the commander should have maybe only one active spot at a time.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Sparks on 10-10-2010, 07:10:46

Also, PR is for sure not our enemy, dont know where you got that idea... it is a great mod

Being a long time lurker in these forums I have seen posters get shot down in flames the moment they mention PR style features being suggested as an option to copy in FH.
So don't be surprised that posters feel that way.
 
:D



Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Ts4EVER on 10-10-2010, 10:10:55
well if you lurked a bit longer you'd know that htese suggestions aren't shot down because they are from PR, but because they would never work on their own and without the other features PR has. And the devs don't want to include those because they are making an fps game, not a simulation like PR. But people tend to overlook that and keep posting the same suggestions like the idiots they are, so of course they are gonna get flamed.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: KurtisMayer on 10-10-2010, 11:10:06

nice ideas

the commander realy need to be improve
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Knitschi on 10-10-2010, 12:10:10
YES!! How often have I begged for a commander that is fun to play because he can actualy influence the outcome of a game.
Artillery spots are only one thing he could do.
Giving points for fulfilling his orders is another one, but has been rejected because there were voices that do not like "forced" teamplay.
I also liked to see him placing foxholes or similar defensive positions like the SLs in PR do.

And there were other suggestions that sounded nice, but I can't remember them all right now.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Beaufort on 10-10-2010, 13:10:34
well if you lurked a bit longer you'd know that htese suggestions aren't shot down because they are from PR, but because they would never work on their own and without the other features PR has. And the devs don't want to include those because they are making an fps game, not a simulation like PR. But people tend to overlook that and keep posting the same suggestions like the idiots they are, so of course they are gonna get flamed.

Just so you can read it once more.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Mayhemic.MAD on 10-10-2010, 13:10:00
Imagine the following scenario:
A "forward spotter" pickup kit with radio that can give the current spot with birds eye view. The birds eye view is in real time so its pretty unrealistic to have this without a radio transmitter. Also Spotter planes or maybe other vehicles with radio could give these spots too.
The other foot soldiers with binocs just give coordinates to the artillery but no birds eye view.
Mobile mortars never get a birds eye view but they get a faster reload rate and more ammo.

This way we would have more diverse and realistic arty system and more realistic mortars, more usage of spotter plane and maybe more dedicated spotters instead of combat troops who give spots occasionally and die soon after. Also there would be less precision arty spotting (can be pretty annoying on kidney ridge) but more random shelling.
And I always like it when theres lots of explosions around but I dont die instantly :)
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Potilas on 10-10-2010, 14:10:02
To answer Natty`s question. Right click the map and choose artillery icon at commander screen. Now indirect fire operators gets coordinates for artillery marker location. Operator zeroes the numbers and fires. 

The key difference compared to pr system is than you cannot do this by youself, which is ironic imo  ;D
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: katakulli on 10-10-2010, 16:10:28
As it si now the commander role only takes up space imo. Perhaps even remove it or replace it with a special "forward observer" role that specialises in calling in off map artillery but is on the map actively spotting instead of sitting back at some radio being bored.

  I agree with you, the only boring thing about being commander is ''we have to wait on the radio''. To solve that problem i did what you said a few times at op. aberdeen. I spawned as scout infantry than took the commander vehicle and drove to the front line, while i was waiting ( commander abilities to reload ) i spotted targets for the 105mm light howitzer and finally i managed to get some fun.

 it is cool because:
 - you don't have to fire commander artillery blindly you can find your own targets with your binoculars.
 - you can support your team with supplies better
        - for repair support : you can see which tank is damaged and which is not.
        - for ammo support : you can see which tank is fighting and which one is just camping.
 - but the most important, you don't have to just wait on the radio you can do other things while waiting.
        - spotting targets for artillery
        - marking enemies on the map
        - dropping supplies

   I think only one change needed, let us free to use commander abilities on the frontline just like bf2 but as a forward observer. We can use nco kits which have binoculars for spotting, smg and smoke grenades for self defence.

    Balance:
  Well it's not overpowered at op. aberdeen because commander artillery is weak, however it can be overpowered for other maps with powerful commander artillery strikes which can destroy even tanks easily. My suggestion is adding warning and delay to artillery strikes like company of heroes, eg. first smoke shells should dropped to mark the area than artillery strike should start after 10 seconds delay so opponent players can understand they have been marked and run away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWKSOwWI_qg


Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: djinn on 10-10-2010, 18:10:18
A few commander ideas i have:

1. Using the auto plane code from ramelle and depending on the map,
He could call in fighter-bomber, medium, even heavy bomber runs, or in major battles, he may have a mixture of choices. Heavy bombing is wide area, medium is closer range and fighter-bomber is commander-arty range. These are the most special of assets and range from just once, to at most 3 times, depending on which the map has.

He can also call in an auto-plane scout plane with the radar effect of live planes. This he can do more regularly.

Artillery of varying kinds. From varying naval artillery (in some maps that had them, rather than occupy-able ships or turrets, the visible ship fires on commander order only),

 offmap core
artillery (but these should fire larger shells than on-map arty - im talking hu-uge explosions, tiger-tank flippers),

 offmap arty (current offmap arty barrage including rocket barrage when available),

mortar barrage (but not the cartoony one we have now, it should look like ingame manned arty and sound like it)

Also, the commander shouldnt have a blocked tactical commo-rose. He should have the same as squad leaders without the 'attack-here' option. He should ae able to radio, not shout. Lets face it, he cant sit at a radio all game. Thats just boring

Also i think the commander, while sitting @ the radio, should see all spots from his team, including that from spotter planes. But these enemy spots should last longer than for others so he gets situational awareness and can make tactical decisions or counter enemy commander tactics.

Also, more commander radios in maps
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Potilas on 10-10-2010, 19:10:24
I counted 2 supporting post so far. Not a huge succes, but not fail either. So, lets not bury this tread yet 8) Most of ppl have their own opinion how they like commander role improved and thats cool. I like to have direct reply also how you see this commander feature. Good, bad, imba, useless, pointess, pls no... just mention a few examples what kind of feedback I personally like to hear. Please discuss.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: djinn on 10-10-2010, 19:10:34
Sorry, dont know Pr arty system, but i thought i added to your arty-system ifa for the commander to not only give him more to ure, but a more tactical role and freedom to use it?
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Potilas on 10-10-2010, 19:10:07
Sorry, dont know Pr arty system, but i thought i added to your arty-system ifa for the commander to not only give him more to ure, but a more tactical role and freedom to use it?

Detailed explaining takes all day. Watch the vid mate. It takes 90 sec to get the whole point. http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f196-pr-highlights/86805-deployable-mortars-update-tutorial.html

Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Eat Uranium on 10-10-2010, 19:10:44
Using the auto plane code from ramelle and depending on the map,
He could call in fighter-bomber, medium, even heavy bomber runs, or in major battles, he may have a mixture of choices. Heavy bombing is wide area, medium is closer range and fighter-bomber is commander-arty range. These are the most special of assets and range from just once, to at most 3 times, depending on which the map has.

He can also call in an auto-plane scout plane with the radar effect of live planes. This he can do more regularly.
The planes on Ramelle are entirely illusions of scripts.  The P51s are vehicles that move forward constantly without being effected by gravity, and Otolikos painstakingly timed their appearance so that he could spawn the explosions in the righ place at the right time.

The scout planes can't work on the UAV code, because there is only one model available for both teams.  Might be possible with a lot of python though to do something similar.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: djinn on 10-10-2010, 19:10:44
The scout plane will be on rails like the p51, wont use the uav code, but the radar of the current scout plane

Theres no way to get the bomber plane to drop a bomb @ the spot once its been set?

But lets focus on commander mortar

Oh, and i can only fon browse, so youtube is out of the question :-(
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: KurtisMayer on 10-10-2010, 22:10:34
uhm, call havy bomber ride?

that remember me FH1 there was some kit that alow you to cal three stuka or a B-17!

or the glider that become a mobile spawn point (FH1 some market garden or normandy maps)


I would like to call Heavy barriage fire from battleship in point du hoc!!
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: djinn on 10-10-2010, 22:10:01
Well, thats technically what the arty already in that map is. Devs havent made ships or coded that sorta thing is all
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Sparks on 11-10-2010, 08:10:05

Just so you can read it once more.

Yeah, its a pity when you can't think of anything original yourself eh??


Wimp.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: djinn on 11-10-2010, 09:10:04
while the squad should move tactically, the commander deals with over-all strategy.

He is not an auxillary force, but the one who sees the larger picture.

His game is thus to be seen in plan view aloft in a scout plane or on a map in his hq.

He plans the play for the army, keeps squads following HIs plan, booting out rebels etc, and supporting the attack or defense with strategic assets:

/Arty of varying kinds
/Strategic air support
/Supplies - needs a plane to fly over to drop it though
/Smoke barrage
/Perhaps later, timed-fuse barrage which explode flak in the air above the target... Maybe

It would help if soldiers carried less ammo so that such things as ammo boxes would be a real relief to see.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: DLFReporter on 11-10-2010, 10:10:15
I think a spotter-plane that works like the UAV from PR would be cool. A slow flying Piper for example that doesn't uncover enemies on the map, but that would give the commander a birds eye view of a part of the frontline. Perhaps it could indestructible or at least have an ass full of HP in order to force the enemy to decide whether he wants to waste time in taking the plane down or continue fighting.

This would make me want to play commander every time ^^

Edit: Make the plane fly at one height and with a constant (believably low) speed so the commander just has to use his arrow keys to steer left and right.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Alakazou on 11-10-2010, 10:10:27
I think a spotter-plane that works like the UAV from PR would be cool. A slow flying Piper for example that doesn't uncover enemies on the map, but that would give the commander a birds eye view of a part of the frontline. Perhaps it could indestructible or at least have an ass full of HP in order to force the enemy to decide whether he wants to waste time in taking the plane down or continue fighting.

This would make me want to play commander every time ^^

Did the flying piper will be remote controled or it will be human controled?
Because if it's remote controled, I think the piper like UAV from PR and Piper like we have now will be cool. Both of them.
The reason why I say we need both of them it's because the UAV type is for the commander, but the other it's for the soldier on the field. When I play, I use the indication from the piper.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: DLFReporter on 11-10-2010, 11:10:19
I would be for both versions as well. The player spotter has the spot function while the spotter for the commander would not have the automatic 'radar'.

As I said in my edit:
Quote
Edit: Make the plane fly at one height and with a constant (believably low) speed so the commander just has to use his arrow keys to steer left and right.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: djinn on 11-10-2010, 11:10:21
And THAT's how we get the commander to call in airstrikes!

Remote planes, not auto-planes :-)
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Slayer on 11-10-2010, 22:10:11
Theres no way to get the bomber plane to drop a bomb @ the spot once its been set?
I don't think so. Also, the bombing raids you want can maybe be implemented as commander offmap arty, just in a different form. I don't believe it is the right way to go when FH is gonna do automatic planes on rails. Let's keep vehicles 99,9% human controlled, please.

This doesn't mean I'm against pimping the commander role. Right now I just go commander when I want to have a break on a long night of gaming.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: VanOwen on 12-10-2010, 15:10:40
What about giving the commander the ability to spawn equipment?  I.E. and additional Panther or M36 at the right time could make a lot of impact.  I.E. Being able to spawn a PzrIII on Brest when the PzrIV has been killed and the Sherman and the M5 are roving the streets.

In this case it make sense to have this only work where it makes logical sense for that unit spawn in, like in the rear lines for heavy equipment. 
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: KurtisMayer on 12-10-2010, 16:10:49
someone know how allyes start to airdrop the willjeeps frome the bombers?

was that during the WWII or only after?

it would be helpfull have the commander that airdrop some willyjeep when your need

(http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?s=65445bc71b40a8694a706d60a4633d43&attachmentid=185559&d=1276555961)

Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Mayhemic.MAD on 12-10-2010, 17:10:02
(http://www.abload.de/img/bundesarchiv_bild_141-tjj3.jpg)
3,7 cm Pak dropped over Crete 1941
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Unleashed on 12-10-2010, 17:10:22
Dropping a PAK? That would be a real cool and strategic advantage.
A jeep? Not so much. Basically, I can't see the advantage of any lighter vehicle than the Halftrack/Bren Carrier/Skdfz in FH2.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: VonMudra on 12-10-2010, 17:10:30
I've brought up the dropped Paks and recoiless rifles for Kreta before....  Would at least give the germans a fighting chance against the brit tanks, plus can support attacks....
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Steel_Lion_FIN on 12-10-2010, 21:10:56
I've brought up the dropped Paks and recoiless rifles for Kreta before....  Would at least give the germans a fighting chance against the brit tanks, plus can support attacks....

^^This gets my approval
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Beaufort on 12-10-2010, 23:10:25
Sounds cool :)
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Potilas on 12-10-2010, 23:10:15
I've brought up the dropped Paks and recoiless rifles for Kreta before....  Would at least give the germans a fighting chance against the brit tanks, plus can support attacks....

Cool idea. Junkers transport planes would be perfect for that btw. No commander needed.

I just noticed that im not suggesting a simple addon. Making of working artillery system took ages (2 years?) from PR developement team. I am afraid workload of suggestion will be epic and benefit minimal for gameplay.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: sniper77shot on 16-10-2010, 03:10:27
I like being commander, in fh2 it needs some tweaks to it to be more functional but I think it is great.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: VanOwen on 18-10-2010, 17:10:56
Seeing as SL are mobile spawn points... is it possible to make a static object a spawn point as well?  And is it possible to make supply drops mobile spawn points?

Plus giving CO's the ability to mark artillery spots for mortars/arty would make them more fun/useful.  COs can't see whats on the ground, but marking on the map where arty should shoot at would be a good (and sensible) way for the CO to direct his soldiers to fire at.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: [ret]azreal on 18-10-2010, 19:10:05
Static objects as a spawn point; no, I don't think that's possible. Supply drops as a spawn point; yes, that's possible, but there's no way to have the spawn point activate once the supply drop has touched the ground.

And I've been thinking about this suggestion. I don't think it would work out too well. If you give commanders or SL's the ability to mark the map for artillery, then you could just "mark" an enemy flag without having a spotter in the area, essentially leading to main rape by artillery.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: sn00x on 18-10-2010, 20:10:07
what would have been awesome for later map is rocket barrage, where you actually see the rockets coming at an angle
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: VanOwen on 18-10-2010, 21:10:28
Static objects as a spawn point; no, I don't think that's possible. Supply drops as a spawn point; yes, that's possible, but there's no way to have the spawn point activate once the supply drop has touched the ground.

And I've been thinking about this suggestion. I don't think it would work out too well. If you give commanders or SL's the ability to mark the map for artillery, then you could just "mark" an enemy flag without having a spotter in the area, essentially leading to main rape by artillery.

It does seem that the threat of artillery being able to 'rape' locations is nearly as much of a threat as it could be from the CO.  Granted a CO could make spots much more quickly then a standard spotter, flag/base raping could be easily mitigated by adjusting the accuracy of artillery/mortar rounds or adjusting the range to prevent rounds from reaching the enemy's main base.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: luftwaffe.be on 18-10-2010, 22:10:28
it's not merely the enemy's base that would be the problem. The problem would be that the commander would be able to point out all the enemy strongpoints right from the beginning of the map. On some maps this would be a real problem (tobruk, goodwood, sidi rege, alam halfa ...
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Potilas on 18-10-2010, 23:10:46
Thx for looking at this azreal. I doub blind firing main would be big issue. At first it is boring. Secondly, server rules/admin could deny artilleries shooting at enemy main. Best part of being artillery gunner is see shells landing and blowing up poor bastards. Sure someone is mad enough to spend entire round bombing blindly main base, but I really dont belive that it will became a common habit.

Commander cannot take any a part of fighting from behind the desk. Im hoping little change. Commander does not command anybody as we well know. Commander linking up with indirect fire perhaps could start communication between team and commander.
Here is example scenario. Random player:"88 is manned at flak battery. He shot my kingtiger :'(" Commander:"Roger that, Ill send artillery coordinates on it" Arty:"roger commander. Im on it. Random player"Shell landed little bit too west of target...  Target destoyed."
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Zoologic on 19-10-2010, 17:10:50
Easy to suggest, hard to implement:

Djinn's called-out air strikes, nice, i like it.

Mudra's aiedropped guns and light vehicles. That's neat!

But me, I want the commander to be able to spawn tanks. Let's say, gave him an asset of 1 tank and 2 half tracks/trucks, he can spawn this on any of his flag. This makes him more useful and realistic than vanilla BF2, where he can drop vehicles, call-off arties, and reveal map with UAV. This will somehow can solve partial stalemate in maps like Totalize often experienced.

If he can summon smoke grenades (when he call orders on squads), he can summon vehicles or other objects too.
Title: Re: what if commander can give coordinates to indirect fire by radio?
Post by: Beaufort on 07-11-2010, 00:11:07
One easy thing to make the commander role less boring would be to be able to follow his troops as a spectator. Not free cam of course, just the one you have in battle recorder, but without the zoom option...