Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Tactics & Tutorials => Topic started by: djinn on 08-09-2013, 14:09:19

Title: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 08-09-2013, 14:09:19
This is one of those more controversial subjects that the community is very much divided on -- And there have been FH2 developers who believe this is nothing more than fiction.

Here's why I believe FH2 works, and how to use it more.

Assume that at any given time on the server, one side is better than the other; altered only by how well that team plays in attack vs. defense & the turnover of players.

To balance the odds, one must use teamplay.

Some basic tips in this respect:
1.
Boycott squads where it is clear the squad leader is a n00b, or spends more time dead, manning a one-man vehicle or doing absolutely nothing of importance to the general strategy.
This forces the team to organically-reorganize itself into squads that have good or at least decent squad leaders, who lead from the rear, position their squads to make a contribution to the team effort, and are likely to base their squad's action on what the team is doing.

TAKE AWAY
- Good squad leaders lead from the rear, or at least manage to stay alive and push forward so their squad can.
-A player leading a squad with apparently no concern for being a mobile spawn, whether of not his squad can spawn on him/ her, and if the squad knows what he's about is usually either a n00b or someone not interested in squad play... So why waste a potentially-fun session of FH2 running alongside such a person.

2.

There is a front. It's area transcended by the forward-most bulk of the enemy force(Isolated lone wolves don't count as they serve no strategic purpose).

Once you realize there is a front, you should next realize that front needs to be held and extended into the enemy domain. There is usually the main brunt of the enemy attack, where most of the squads are trying to push their way into your lines. Naturally much of your faction will react to counter the main brunt of the attack. Having your squad join the frey head-on simply adds to the bottleneck and frag-fest, in which individual player skill matters more than squad tactics-- And winning the skirmish depends more on  luck, and hoping your squad has better players than the other side. Under these conditions, expect to die often and for with least provocation.

The smarter alternative to this sort of game-play, is flanking and tactical use of weapons and positions. FH2 is all about logistics, and larger strategy. While dying you will, your ability to die less than the enemy and hence prevail is based on maneuver and position, (even if you don't realize that's what's going on) is what wins the day.

-If a squad remains to the flank of the main enemy advance, and can pick them off almost without becoming the main focus of the entire enemy force, it manages to weaken the enemy's attack altogether.

-If a squad holds a defensive position with good firing positions that overlook much of where the enemy can advance from, it depletes much of the enemy, and more importantly, their will to advance on that position. By comparison, a squad caught out in the open doesn't last long, and matters little to over-all strategy.

- Keep the defenses repaired and in position. Make sure each side of the defense is protected by enough people to push back the enemy or stop them in their tracks. Keep AT mines in positions and replace those that go off in order to deny the enemy a chance to flank you. Fix AT guns and mgs and keep varying weapon types defended by others e.g. An mg position needs to defended on the flank by infantry. AT a better positioned to the flanks, not the front of advancing tanks etc.

-If the enemy is manning a strong point, like the 20mm flakvierling on Point Du Hoc, it is stupid to attack enmasse in one direction. Recognize where the main attack is, and move on the flanks. Granted, you might be dealing with enemy on your own flanks, but move quickly, as they won't expect a serious attack from that side and will be focused more on trying to get to your main force, which they can hear and likely have already faced. Get to the flanks and destroy that hard point, allowing your main team to use that amassing of numbers to punch through the enemy.


3.
Most players are logical people, so strategy against them is based on this.
If an enemy realizes they are dying meaninglessly against a position, eventually they will either change attack or bleed their side.

After any given attack to take a position, expect a counter-attack, because players will almost always counter-attack to take back a lost flag. After taking a flag, you are usually at your weakest, waiting for squad members to spawn and other squads to reinforce the area by spawning or using that safe route.

DO NOT move into the enemy right after an attack or you will be obliterated by an enemy, probably reinforced, and hence the newly captured flag vulnerable. Instead, dig in and blunt their counter-attack.

You can tell when their attack has failed, because enemy action would be in drips and drabs rather than full squads and armor. At this point, the enemy attack has been blunted, they have lost the initiative & it is your turn to take the field with a now reinforced squad.


FINALLY
Remove deadly enemy threats BEFORE dealing with the rest of the enemy force. If there is an mg present. Take it out fast, or it becomes a fire base for advancing infantry. This isn't neccesarily coordinated, it is simply the facts of warfare. While an mg is picking people off or preventing them from fighting more boldly, the enemy gets an advantage and will likely be moving forward under that mg fire.

The same goes for tanks. Remove enemy tanks fast, before infantry amass around it, using it as a rally point or worse, a base of fire to move in.


If this isn't proof enough that teamplay and tactics do exist in FH2, I don't what else is.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 08-09-2013, 18:09:13
It doesn't work (in FH2 - public)....

/thread
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 08-09-2013, 18:09:17
This hasn't anything to do with public or not, and teamplay is possible on public FH2 servers too. PR has teamplay too, also on public servers. Ofcourse it is build around the teamplay aspect more than FH2, but it features the right tools for teamplay.

 *cough* We need Mumble *cough*
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 08-09-2013, 23:09:40
Actually, each time I play on public.. cuz I've like never played on y'know.. tournament before? ya, I always get Teamwork.  ::)

But please, don't let me stop you from spoiling the FH2 online experience for yourself, LuckyOne.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Korsakov829 on 09-09-2013, 03:09:59
The only teamwork I've really ever seen in FH2 is 5 guys following a squad leader, that's about it. In my experience, a complete stranger running past an experienced group tends to get a few guys killed, and I don't refer to the enemy.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 09-09-2013, 11:09:41
I never said teamwork is not possible in FH 2. It just that it doesn't really work on public servers. While squad level teamwork is somewhat doable (even if the incentive is very low to do it), multiple squads working together is almost impossible to do.

The lack of proper tools (communication) and incentives (ability to actually suppress, flanking routes which are sometimes non-existent) take away a lot from people who would like to teamwork. Even in tournament play, teamwork often comes to getting people in the capzone together, and attacking from multiple directions, sometimes with armor support, as anything else doesn't really make sense gameplay-wise...
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Roughbeak on 09-09-2013, 17:09:10
Teamwork is possible with public servers, it all depends who the players are in the squad.
Of course you will get some noobs in public who do not know what they're doing half the time...
If the team has at least 1 good squad, and the other one is half-ways decent you will win.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Slayer on 09-09-2013, 18:09:05
Hehe, nice wall of text again, djinn, it had been a while ;)

Some of the stuff you write is a tad utopic, but most of it is doable. Some of what you write I don't quite understand though, like
Quote from: djinn on 08-09-2013, 14:09:19
Expect to die often and for with least provocation.

Also, some words are missing here and there, so if you like having many readers, pls edit it a bit.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 09-09-2013, 23:09:02
That text refers to what happens when a squad, or player decides to 'follow the crowd'.

Usually, you get the main thrust of the enemy advance facing off with the main opposition of your team.
Statistically, expect to run into enemy posing various threats, many of which your skill will be hopeless to stop.

Quote from: LuckyOne on 09-09-2013, 11:09:41
I never said teamwork is not possible in FH 2. It just that it doesn't really work on public servers. While squad level teamwork is somewhat doable (even if the incentive is very low to do it), multiple squads working together is almost impossible to do.

The lack of proper tools (communication) and incentives (ability to actually suppress, flanking routes which are sometimes non-existent) take away a lot from people who would like to teamwork. Even in tournament play, teamwork often comes to getting people in the capzone together, and attacking from multiple directions, sometimes with armor support, as anything else doesn't really make sense gameplay-wise...

Like I said. I ALWAYS play on Public servers cuz I've NEVER played in tournaments, and THIS is how I play, and it ALWAYs works.

Team-play is dependent on ONE person. It doesn't even have to be a squad leader, but it's better it is, since he's a mobile spawn. If I am a squad leader, and I use VOIP or even txt chat, and can articulate what the general strategy is to my squad, no matter how n00bish some are, they follow.

Everyone loves a winner, or someone who appears to know what the fuck they're doing, cuz it's clear to most, that most squad leaders don't.

What tends to happen is I say 'Hi' and start actually moving with purpose. The squad grows steadily mostly, with me shouting out instructions etc. No one needs to chat back. Some do sometimes, but it's rarely of tactical import.

Point is, like anywhere else, most pubbies are looking to enjoy their gaming experience. If a squad leader can offer that by making them meet the best of the enemy force, cap flags or defend them, and basically do something relevant, you get their obedience.

Quote from: Korsakov829 on 09-09-2013, 03:09:59
The only teamwork I've really ever seen in FH2 is 5 guys following a squad leader, that's about it. In my experience, a complete stranger running past an experienced group tends to get a few guys killed, and I don't refer to the enemy.

This strategy is focused ON squad level.

Rule 3, the army will do what the army will do, it's your squad's job to play off that.
The army, for instance is likely to be caught in the bottleneck, dealing with the enemy. It's not conscious. It just is. your squad needs to exploit the open.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: versus on 07-11-2013, 14:11:20
if you want real teamwork in a nice atmosphere, you should join either WaW or FH.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 07-11-2013, 15:11:41
I tried FlH and it is ok, but not so special how people make it sounding. It is fun and not so much different from public play actually - atleast for me. It depends what you try to get out of your public play, nothing else. Overall the experience is quite the same for me. I play with a bunch of skilled people I know between a horde of many headless chickens. ;D
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 07-11-2013, 16:11:09
Quote from: 5hitm4k3r on 07-11-2013, 15:11:41
I tried FlH and it is ok, but not so special how people make it sounding. It is fun and not so much different from public play actually - atleast for me. It depends what you try to get out of your public play, nothing else. Overall the experience is quite the same for me. I play with a bunch of skilled people I know between a horde of many headless chickens. ;D

It depends, but I'd say the biggest difference compared to public play is that your fun is not gonna get ruined by some random troll / newbie that still doesn't have a clue how the game works. Plus the maps are different and they use the rally point system, meaning your SL is always actively participating in the attack, and has direct view of the situation. Of course there are times when you just sit on your ass for the whole round because HQ orders your regiment to guard a backflag that the other team never reached for the last 5 rounds, but other times it's quite action paced and fun, and you always have an excuse when you lose (blame it on the HQs lack of vision or the usual map imbalance :P).
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 07-11-2013, 18:11:04
Quote from: LuckyOne on 07-11-2013, 16:11:09
Quote from: 5hitm4k3r on 07-11-2013, 15:11:41
I tried FlH and it is ok, but not so special how people make it sounding. It is fun and not so much different from public play actually - atleast for me. It depends what you try to get out of your public play, nothing else. Overall the experience is quite the same for me. I play with a bunch of skilled people I know between a horde of many headless chickens. ;D

It depends, but I'd say the biggest difference compared to public play is that your fun is not gonna get ruined by some random troll / newbie that still doesn't have a clue how the game works.

Wrong ... simply wrong. The three or four matches I have played yet, there were always people, who never played FH2 before, also in my squad. I don't want to blame them for anything, as they did a great job in general, but naturally they simply don't know how the game works and you have to guide them. And people still run into s-mines over and over again or can't judge who is friend or foe.

If you play public mostly on your own without any other people, it is ofcourse a difference like night and day. But for me there is no difference. In public as in the tourney matches I hang with people in a TS channel and cooperate with them. As I said. What you get out of the game and experience is up to the player and has nothing to do with playing public or in a tournament.

The biggest difference for me are new maps, that assets are not teamlocked and the spawn on rp's. But that's about it from my POV. Most interesting thing for me is to get hands on some new maps and try how they play.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 08-11-2013, 08:11:55
 I have been complemented many times on the way i run my squad "DevilDogs"

 If a good squad leader can convince the other 5 players that he knows what he is doing & get some small early successes, it really becomes fun.....Mine roads, ambushes, hit & run tactics, sabotage.

 


 8)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 17-11-2013, 18:11:11
I don't even understand why people try to argue this.
If you want to lone wolf it, that's fine.

But I PLAY on public servers exclusively. Never played F|H
So I wont even know how that plays.

What I do Know is spelled out here.

Your average Fh2 player picks Fh2 because they like WWII scenarios
Amd tech enough to play an 8yr old engine to get it. Most are NOT n00bs,
But simply lack leadership...That applies anywhere, from Dday to real work conditions.

Let your squad know you have a plan and communicate it simply and timely,
And more often than not at least 2people in your squad will follow instructions 80%
Of the time, and 3 - 4 people will follow 60% of the time.

You can sufficiently multiply these by a factor of 1.5 - 2 for 10-man squads on the 128 server.

The key thing is to decide to lead, amd then, do so.

Most players want to be immersed in the action,
So unless you've decided to do something random like defendes a bridge
Far from the attack, or something as specific as mining an area for a reason you haven't properly articulated, you will get at least 1 or 2 people following.

The basic Fh2 pubbie at leat knows how to fire their rifle.
For the most part, that's all you need them to do.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Oberst on 11-12-2013, 13:12:10
I am totally agreeing with djinn. And I also did like to play that way, atm I rarely play public. But atleast from my point of view his analysis and playstyle works fine. It also reminded me of one post I did some years ago, which I just wanted to quote here.

Quote
The real guidiance of the public crowd on a server is done by this 1 or 2 dedicated squads, which cap the flags. The majority of players on every map - even if they are in squads - want to spawn where the action is. And this is what they do. So if one of the teamplaying squad caps a flag, stays there and defend it for a second, some of the crowd will spawn in there and set up a kind of "defense", just because this flag is close to the frontline.  "Defense" means that these guys spawning in on the flag move for the most obvious direction, where the part of the other teams "headless" crowd comes from. This happens until the 1 dedicated squads has capped the next flags and has guided the crowd to spawn at the front.
This is what we call gameplay and what the mappers did and thought about.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 12-12-2013, 09:12:41
 Good squad leaders in FH2 are few and far between but there are a few:

- Sgt.Steiner-I Cross
- IrishReloaded
- djinn
- [762] Sandre
- Boo(RUS)
- 5hitm4k3r666

My Top 10 Good Team Players

- Christie Front Drive
- 15Roughbeak15
- [Rage] F4lloutboy
- Granmaestrodemus
- =OST=_M00SE
- Matt_Baker1942
- 69rat
- Dynamite_Brass
- Kelmola
- -=TB=-Bubbles

Good 10 man squads on 762 are game changing.

 The teamwork on 762 is way better than the tournaments due to less red tape & better leadership.

 So all you new players, if you see a squad being lead by any listed above or myself $talkker, i recommend joining, listening and learning.


 ;)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Roughbeak on 12-12-2013, 15:12:19
I appreciate the compliments Jimi.

I would agree with the above post, game changing squad leaders.

Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 31-12-2013, 00:12:18
Not necessary team-work per se, but one man in the right place can have great influence on the success of his team(mates). Therefore, don't be afraid to take some of the "boring" jobs such as arty/recon/AA or even supply and support. Even a well placed Laffete/tripod can be enough to cut off a whole path of advance from the enemy on some push maps.

Just finished a really great round of El Alamein where Allies were losing until 150 or so tickets and then the tables turned around and we held the ridges, winning by some 40 tickets in the end. I didn't do a lot kill-wise, but I provided spotting assistance and helped in capping flags. Of course the success wouldn't have been possible if some teamwork-minded soul didn't keep resupplying the Bishops so they could keep pounding the Germans into submission.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Damaso on 31-12-2013, 03:12:38
Hmm.. interesting....  ;D

Usualy, i started to open teamwork squads during FH2 - 128 players games, and it really feels good to play with them... we used to hold lines in Purple Hearth map, to make massive mining across an entire flank in Fall of Tobruk and EVEN to make bajonet charges in Siege of Giarabub!

Well, its not much about wining or losing the game... but everywone seems to have lots of fun wen playing on my squad, and it seems like i created someking of an "Fanbase", wich joins my squad everytime it gets up... and thats great! :)

Some prints related to it:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1556334_561874740570129_1942484383_o.jpg)
We were swiming our way out to the enemy wadi outpost, wich was being impossible to get captured!

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1556380_561877473903189_1286838942_o.jpg)
Our Teamwork squad usualy isnt one of the "best" ones in ranking... hoewer, this time we were the best, AND looks like the other team also decided to make an Teamwork squad exacly like mine (and yeah, some of their members are usual squadmates of my Teamwork squad)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1491421_561880530569550_1342444972_o.jpg)
And here we decided to take ALL of the german tanks... guess what we did? everywone lined up their tanks across the railroad, and AT THE SAME TIME, we maked our great machinery trespass the railroad, and go straigth to all the sherman tanks than were hanging around there (the allied tanks got slaugthered there)

Quote from: Jimi Hendrix on 12-12-2013, 09:12:41
Good squad leaders in FH2 are few and far between but there are a few:

- Sgt.Steiner-I Cross
- IrishReloaded
- djinn
- [762] Sandre
- Boo(RUS)
- 5hitm4k3r666

My Top 10 Good Team Players

- Christie Front Drive
- 15Roughbeak15
- [Rage] F4lloutboy
- Granmaestrodemus
- =OST=_M00SE
- Matt_Baker1942
- 69rat
- Dynamite_Brass
- Kelmola
- -=TB=-Bubbles

Does my name deserve any place over the Squadleaders ranking?  8)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 31-12-2013, 03:12:29
Quote from: Damaso on 31-12-2013, 03:12:38
Does my name deserve any place over the Squadleaders ranking?  8)

 I dont recall playing in your squad, but the next time i see your squad, ill join.

 I shall revise my list early next year!


 ;)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 31-12-2013, 03:12:35
Damaso's squad is a lot of fun. The only thing we need to work on is getting from Point A to Point B faster.. we played Goodwood today and it took like 100 tickets to get from our main to Grentheville because too many people were playing with themselves instead of regrouping :D.

It usually works good in Teamwork squads though, one of the few that don't have 3 people following SL and 6 people off doing their own thing.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Tankbuster on 31-12-2013, 06:12:57
Oh yeah, I remeber Damaso's squad. Some time ago, I was on his squad in El Alamien, and we assaulted the big ridge in two trucks, I even shot down a stuka.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 31-12-2013, 14:12:17
The question is not whether you make stuff that feels like teamwork and seems to be cool, but whether it actually works in a practical way. I've joined Damaso's squad recently on St. Vith and it was just not my cup of tea. He desperately tried to attack Rosenhugels over the open field though a tank was spoted on the flag and could take out every advancing infantry group with ease. I was not part of the advance luckily but I could tell what was going on just from a rough look at the minimap and Rosenhugels was not captured one single time. I gave him the advice to attack from somewhere else, because we had capped Trainstation and the Bridge. Once Damaso learns to get an eye for the essential stuff - and I think he will do so - I will join his squads more from time to time. But atm I still prefere others, like Band[Nor], MajorIIKoenig, Sgt. Steiner, Johonas, x4fun Odium and some other really good people. Sorry if I forgot to mention someone who deserves to be on that list. There are other good teamplayers like F4lloutboy, Gotkai, Sandre, Schlomo, Slayer, Syrkris, Gloeckner or Boo - just people that you rather have in your than in the enemy team.

The tank assault shows the same problem as on St. Vith. Grenteville is greyed out, there is nobody of your team and you go for Le Mesnit with all available tank power - a flag that will be locked in a few seconds. You need to attack on the shortest route possible to save time and tickets and gain an tactical advantage, so basicaly what Christie mentioned. Then you will succeed. When you cap Grenteville you prevent the enemy from locking up your base, you gain more available spawns and an additional piece of artillery. After you have capped Grenteville and cleaned it (really important part while caping a flag!) you could have split up the squad and go with the strongest tanks for Le Mesnit and cover your rear and flanks with a StuG, Marder and the PIV. But on that screenshot nobody of your team seemed to care about that flag anyway, so I don't wonder why you lost almost the complete map within that small amount of tickets. But yeah, the tank assault looks cool on the minimap.

Besides all the critics, and I know I can be harsh and nitpicking - I wish you the best while trying to improve Damaso. We need more people like you, who emphasize on Teamwork. Keep it up ;)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Damaso on 31-12-2013, 14:12:52
Wow! i wasnt expecting this reaction  :o i tough you guys would be like: "ah shut up, your squad sucks cus you always die during an charge, ect..." but looks like you actually enjoy it! :D

Quote from: 5hitm4k3r on 31-12-2013, 14:12:17
The question is not whether you make stuff that feels like teamwork and seems to be cool, but whether it actually works in a practical way. I've joined Damaso's squad recently on St. Vith and it was just not my cup of tea. He desperately tried to attack Rosenhugels over the open field though a tank was spoted on the flag and could take out every advancing infantry group with ease. I was not part of the advance luckily but I could tell what was going on just from a rough look at the minimap and Rosenhugels was not captured one single time. I gave him the advice to attack from somewhere else, because we had capped Trainstation and the Bridge. Once Damaso learns to get an eye for the essential stuff - and I think he will do so - I will join his squads more from time to time. But atm I still prefere others, like Band[Nor], MajorIIKoenig, Sgt. Steiner, Johonas, x4fun Odium and some other really good people. Sorry if I forgot to mention someone who deserves to be on that list. There are other good teamplayers like F4lloutboy, Gotkai, Sandre, Schlomo, Slayer, Syrkris, Gloeckner or Boo - just people that you rather have in your than in the enemy team.

The tank assault shows the same problem as on St. Vith. Grenteville is greyed out, there is nobody of your team and you go for Le Mesnit with all available tank power - a flag that will be locked in a few seconds. You need to attack on the shortest route possible to save time and tickets and gain an tactical advantage, so basicaly what Christie mentioned. Then you will succeed. When you cap Grenteville you prevent the enemy from locking up your base, you gain more available spawns and an additional piece of artillery. After you have capped Grenteville and cleaned it (really important part while caping a flag!) you could have split up the squad and go with the strongest tanks for Le Mesnit and cover your rear and flanks with a StuG, Marder and the PIV. But on that screenshot nobody of your team seemed to care about that flag anyway, so I don't wonder why you lost almost the complete map within that small amount of tickets. But yeah, the tank assault looks cool on the minimap.

Besides all the critics, and I know I can be harsh and nitpicking - I wish you the best while trying to improve Damaso. We need more people like you, who emphasize on Teamwork. Keep it up ;)

Yeah, we still need to work on that "lets play serious now!" part with the squad... and btw: we were already moving to the mesnit flag on that Goodwood map, but then we saw the flag getting capped: we advanced anyway, and then we made that "everywone jumping out of the railroad at the same time with armors", and rushed to Gretenvile from the back!

You can calculate what happened to the allies stationed there, they werent expecting an entire armored division to jump off across the railroad, and so they got slaugthered, and then we moved from gretenvile from beind - in 20 seconds the flag was captured with all the armors at the mainstreet

The only problem was than there was 1 guy who started to bitch about tanks not going to were he would like them to come, and so he started to CAPS LOOCK how the entire squad should be kicked because they were disturping the gameplay by taking all armorus - come on! we waited for those tanks, and we arent disrespecting anywone! what we do with them its only our bussiness, but bitching because you want a tank and there is always a guy first to taking it for teamwork pruposes aint gonna make things better..

Anyway, thanks for the advices everywone, i will try to make some serious blitz over enemy flags more often ;)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 02-01-2014, 16:01:51
Damaso, I think the main "problem" (can I call it that way?  :P) is that you play this game at a way slower pace than it's actually needed to win many maps. FH2 is fast paced, brutal and you have to be very good at "thinking on the move", you have to constantly keep the pressure when on attack (because the bleed makes you lose otherwise), and manouver often on defense to keep the other team from wiping you out with arty.

Your leading style is currently more suited to the likes of PR. I would love to see a slowed down version of FH2 because I enjoy slow, tactical gameplay once in a while, but it's just not going to happen. I guess we'll have to wait until PR:WWII for that, and in the meantime, enjoy the best of fast-paced-every-second-counts-slaugtherfest of FH2.  ;)

The best way would be to learn the strategy for each map (while the world of FH2 is quite chaotic there are some "patterns" that keep repeating every time a specific map is played), learn the best hiding spots for a SL (hiding as a SL is very important in FH2) and also, don't be afraid to improvise.

I remember an awesome and very close round of Brest where Sandre sneaked in a squad to the docks before Ruins were capped. This enabled the Americans to pincer the remaining Germans and avoided the fragfest of the last flag. It's that kind of bold moves that win rounds for your team!
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Damaso on 03-01-2014, 03:01:00
Quote from: LuckyOne on 02-01-2014, 16:01:51
Damaso, I think the main "problem" (can I call it that way?  :P) is that you play this game at a way slower pace than it's actually needed to win many maps. FH2 is fast paced, brutal and you have to be very good at "thinking on the move", you have to constantly keep the pressure when on attack (because the bleed makes you lose otherwise), and manouver often on defense to keep the other team from wiping you out with arty.

Your leading style is currently more suited to the likes of PR. I would love to see a slowed down version of FH2 because I enjoy slow, tactical gameplay once in a while, but it's just not going to happen. I guess we'll have to wait until PR:WWII for that, and in the meantime, enjoy the best of fast-paced-every-second-counts-slaugtherfest of FH2.  ;)

The best way would be to learn the strategy for each map (while the world of FH2 is quite chaotic there are some "patterns" that keep repeating every time a specific map is played), learn the best hiding spots for a SL (hiding as a SL is very important in FH2) and also, don't be afraid to improvise.

I remember an awesome and very close round of Brest where Sandre sneaked in a squad to the docks before Ruins were capped. This enabled the Americans to pincer the remaining Germans and avoided the fragfest of the last flag. It's that kind of bold moves that win rounds for your team!

Yeah, but PR lags like hell for me, and they all start to bitch against you if you lead your comrades the bad way (by that i mean atacking position B, but other squadleaders want you to go C for some reason, and so they all start to bitch and ban you for not following order - even if you are an squad leader) :-[

Anyway, i developed an new tactic wile in a Teamwork squad: we were playing in one of those new maps "Endebourg Rigde" or something like that, and its an VERY LARGE MAP in wich i personaly enjoy! :D

Basicaly, we were hanging around the map, blitzkrieg to an flag, and then leave it and go another flag (no defenses, no engagements - only flag capping ALL across the map)

And i also developed some "magic words" - by that i mean than i "teach" my squad an word, and they do it.. for example: wen we move on infantry, i say "conwoy", and everywone makes an good infantry conwoy with no problems (10 people following each other  ;D, and yeah, i kinda "trained" them before in previous battles on non-figthing positions)

I would also like to ask if its possible to add more tickets to the maps? because they finish too damn fast... i mean, we would need at least like 1500 tickes (i hope thats not too much?)  in some maps, due to the slaugthering, and big maps who take too much to travel around for flags (yeah: wen you reach the other side of the map, game finishes due to low tickets, gg everywone)

Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Tankbuster on 03-01-2014, 05:01:35
an infantry "conwoy" will get the entire squad killed if ambushed with 2 jerries with an MG42 and rifle.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: CHRISTIEFRONTDRIVE on 03-01-2014, 05:01:13
I've been in Damaso's squad a lot in the past week or so, taking a break from my usual method of kamikaze/headless chicken attacking in other squads.

There are a lot of enjoyable aspects to teamwork squads but I agree with those saying the pace is a bit slow. This is not always a bad thing, but we do need to remember that tickets are the same (on 762 #4) when there are 25 people on the server as they are with 125, and some maps naturally go by fast anyway. On that server the ticket ratios are set as if there were roughly 50 people on each team: this means a map of 25 vs. 25 provides way more chances for repeated attacks due to a longer round than when there are double the players. A couple minutes here and there reorganizing our attack is fine when the map lasts 75 minutes, less so when the map lasts 25.

I personally don't mind long hikes through the trees to attack from the rear of a flag, and there are a growing number of other players who are becoming regulars in Damaso's squad who don't mind either. Nevertheless, I do feel we need to up the pace a bit. Like LuckyOne said, it feels very much like a PR squad, and that's good in every single way except the time it takes to engage. Damaso does an excellent job keeping his squad together, but just as a friendly suggestion there are times where six guys are waiting for one other guy halfway across the map and it might be better for the sake of everyone's patience to get the show on the road.

Having said that, it should be noted Damaso and the regulars in the teamwork squad have the right attitude. Welcoming to all new players and not offended if the slower pace is not to someone's taste, because it won't be to everyone's liking. Confident but not bossy, everyone has a job but no one's a cunt to each other when someone cocks up like you see in other squads from time to time. No complaints, really. There are a couple bugs to work out but it's a damn sight better than most squads and as long as we can pick up the pace just a bit it should be good fun for the foreseeable future.



Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 03-01-2014, 06:01:53
 Being a SL takes allot of practice & your not always going to win.

Here are a few other tips:

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Listen to your squads suggestions & improvise tactics accordingly

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Flanking is your best friend.  Whenever i decide on a flag to attack, 98% of the time i will NOT take a direct approach

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Having your squad go M.O.B.I.L.E. is a HUGE advantage

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Link up with another squad for LARGER attacks



Basically all of djinn points in the 1st post and a dash here and there of other tips in this thread needs to be
put together in a FH2 Squad Leaders Guide or something & E-mailed to all the community.....

..... wonder if teamwork on the servers would go through the roof?


 8)
 
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Damaso on 03-01-2014, 15:01:41
Quote from: Jimi Hendrix on 03-01-2014, 06:01:53
Being a SL takes allot of practice & your not always going to win.

Here are a few other tips:

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Listen to your squads suggestions & improvise tactics accordingly

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Flanking is your best friend.  Whenever i decide on a flag to attack, 98% of the time i will NOT take a direct approach

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Having your squad go M.O.B.I.L.E. is a HUGE advantage

(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Link up with another squad for LARGER attacks



Basically all of djinn points in the 1st post and a dash here and there of other tips in this thread needs to be
put together in a FH2 Squad Leaders Guide or something & E-mailed to all the community.....

..... wonder if teamwork on the servers would go through the roof?


 8)


I can take care of the first 3 types... but the last one i dont know because:

1st - Its dificult to keep constant contact with another squad so the cordination could be better (and the best way to do it is to SPEAK and not TYPE with them... but as you see, voip isnt enabled for inter-squad speaking i guess... only mumble - but it gives a lot of lag)

2nd - Lets imagine you can actually speak with other squad, and then you find out than their squad is totaly anarchist... what are you suposed to do wen you are (sometimes) the only real teamworking squad in the team? (by that i mean having the entire squad with you and not making their own wars, so if you tell them to atack they will spawn on you, atack, ect.. and we dont see many squads behave like that)

I would really like to make an 20 players atack with 2 teamworking squads... but its really dificult to get the another squad ready  :-\
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 03-01-2014, 15:01:52
(http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/top-contributors/images/star.png) Link up with another squad for LARGER attacks

 This only means if you see another squad attacking a flag, move your squad over to assist.

 Communication is not required, however i have been know to type in all CAPS to another squad leader:

 Squad 1 will assist 2 or squad 1 help 2.....


 ;)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 03-01-2014, 17:01:27
Quote from: Damaso on 03-01-2014, 15:01:41

I can take care of the first 3 types... but the last one i dont know because:

1st - Its dificult to keep constant contact with another squad so the cordination could be better (and the best way to do it is to SPEAK and not TYPE with them... but as you see, voip isnt enabled for inter-squad speaking i guess... only mumble - but it gives a lot of lag)

2nd - Lets imagine you can actually speak with other squad, and then you find out than their squad is totaly anarchist... what are you suposed to do wen you are (sometimes) the only real teamworking squad in the team? (by that i mean having the entire squad with you and not making their own wars, so if you tell them to atack they will spawn on you, atack, ect.. and we dont see many squads behave like that)

I would really like to make an 20 players atack with 2 teamworking squads... but its really dificult to get the another squad ready  :-\

Ideally, that's the situation where the commander's role should come in. And I'm sure that was original DICE's intention when they decided to put him in the game.

... Unfortunately that means the commander should be someone who's really good at communicating things AND able to persuade other players (squadleaders) to do things he suggests. Also, he needs to be inifinitely patient because there's not a lot a commander can do in FH2, and on 762 he's not allowed to fight either, so most of the time people will just take the seat, drop some arty/supplies and then leave the spot.

And since the commander has absolutely no power whatsoever , nor he can give some visible incentive to people - and I don't count "good job, squad, I'll recommend you for a non-existent medal" as a visible incentive, he can't really do much on improving inter-squad coordination. (unless he's an admin and decides to abuse his position).
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 03-01-2014, 19:01:43
Then again thats why there are tournaments and thats why theres more people playing in tournaments than public. Once you've experienced something as good as playing with 50+ organised people, you simply can't go back to running around with 1 squad doing shit and 7 more of lone wolfs.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Damaso on 04-01-2014, 04:01:27
Quote from: LuckyOne on 03-01-2014, 17:01:27


Ideally, that's the situation where the commander's role should come in. And I'm sure that was original DICE's intention when they decided to put him in the game.

... Unfortunately that means the commander should be someone who's really good at communicating things AND able to persuade other players (squadleaders) to do things he suggests. Also, he needs to be inifinitely patient because there's not a lot a commander can do in FH2, and on 762 he's not allowed to fight either, so most of the time people will just take the seat, drop some arty/supplies and then leave the spot.

And since the commander has absolutely no power whatsoever , nor he can give some visible incentive to people - and I don't count "good job, squad, I'll recommend you for a non-existent medal" as a visible incentive, he can't really do much on improving inter-squad coordination. (unless he's an admin and decides to abuse his position).


Well, i could get commander sometimes...  but the squadleaders i would  give orders should organize themselfes as well (imagine sending 1 order to an squadleader, he acepts but he cant get anywone together...  ::) )

Yeah: i guess i will try to do it, and i will try to call the atention of the players to organize good squads (since it looks like the "server teamwork" grewed up a bit in last years :D
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Gotkai on 05-01-2014, 11:01:34
Maybe it has something to do with some noobs sitting at the commander radio trying to give experienced players idiotic orders.
No wonder no one listens to them. I will not, because i think i know how to play and win the maps. Don't need a commander.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 05-01-2014, 13:01:13
Quote from: Gotkai on 05-01-2014, 11:01:34
Maybe it has something to do with some noobs sitting at the commander radio trying to give experienced players idiotic orders.
No wonder no one listens to them. I will not, because i think i know how to play and win the maps. Don't need a commander.

Fair point, but it's exactly that kind of attitude that makes squad-squad coordination impossible. Every SL is thinking "I know better than some guy who has been staring at the map for the past half an hour". And the truth is, sometimes you don't, because as a SL you can't be paying attention to the map all the time. The commander can, because he has no other job.

Maybe the problem is that the commander can't possibly convey any info on what he knows about the situation directly to the map. That's why I like the PR commander marker system, the commander there has a direct impact on the state of the map and can mark known enemy positions. Also, since the last patch he can use the UAV to be the "all seeing eye in the sky". We do have something similar in FH2 with the commander scout plane, but it requires a dedicated pilot who isn't bored with flying around and helping the commander see the situation. I still think the problem is mostly in the limited tools of the commander and lack of communication between commander and his "subordinates".

If every SL did his job and reported known enemy positons to the commander (even spotting with binoculars could do), and commander could permanently mark them on the map things could improve ten-fold. The commander could keep an eye on the "big picture" and SLs could focus on the tactical situation of the current flag they are attacking, with enough info to plan their approach accordingly.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 06-01-2014, 08:01:01
 Would be cool to have a field radio or some kind of pickup kit that would allow a SL to talk to other squads, but im sure the devs have looked at that and decided the coding would be a nightmare.

 Im not even sure if PR has anything like that do they?


  :-\
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Gotkai on 06-01-2014, 11:01:11
I'd say it's not impossible, but with time you rely on the experienced players and the mentioned SL. With you know how they play and you can react. Playing with Steiner, 5hitm4k3r, Odium etc. without orders will promise more success than follow Damasos Commander orders.
In my oppinion is Commander almost as useless as the medic kit.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 07-04-2014, 19:04:18
The commander is a game mechsnic that was not fully realized because there may have been difference of opinion in the devs, specifically mappers, so there was eventually not enough justification to invest time and skill into providing more functiinality to the role.


On a team play level, i still find coordinating attacks with commander artillery can make taking a base that much easier after it's been plastered with arty and all it's defensive guns blastered away
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 01-09-2014, 10:09:43
Here's an update.

I find that simply allowing your squad to understand your tactical role makes them not only follow the plan, but fight with aggression not seen in the rest of your team.

Essentially, this tip is on how to create a crack team. It doesn't take hours of training together, although it helps to work with individuals who are great at some specific things like sniping, or mg etc.

Still, this goes for even averagely skilled players like myself.

If you decide to hold a building on the flanks rather than simply plough into the enemy with the rest of your army, and you can communicate why doing so is what is actually turning the battle, your men won't need to be micro managed.

Indeed, they start to take initiate themselves in a way which funnels into your strategy.

To the enemy, your squad appears to be some elite force out of hell that fights aggressively, cant be dislodged and either blunts even their most concerted attacks or throws them back with little support from armor or the rest of your team, and showing up from no where.


A proviso for this type of play is to play with some discipline. You may route the Allies in Sidi Rezegh playing this way, but you need to stop pushing into them once they are in their base. Pull the reins on your men's aggression at that point so you don't become that squad not playing by the rules.

In another instance, you may put up so good a defense that the enemy force bypasses your position, breaking through another squad on your flanks and cutting you squad off in a now-uncap flag.

You need to do a fighting retreat. It may seem counter intuitive to how you should be playing, but a good strategist knows when to fight at one point and when to fall back and grind then enemy's forward thrust to a halt...


After all, by you are the only squad that can  8)

Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 09-09-2014, 01:09:47
My type of thread.

The main idea behind the design of DICE's commander order system was to bring out options to the hivemind of the 64p play, and a  tiny factor of sensible division of tasks. Since the orders were easier to succeed with everyone nearly constantly on the move, the order system added a factor of fulfillment to the player in terms of interaction and sense of achievement.

 The natural evolution of FH2 lead to 2 critical differences. First, is the fact that everyone knows each other. Commander in Battlefield 2 was mainly an anonymous tool with many hopping on and off during and inbetween rounds. Being a strategically active commander in FH2 is being a fuckwit to some, if not many of the players, mainly due to the fact that chat is already being used extensively to fulfill the commanders work in a democratic fashion.

The second and more important difference is the gameplay. Any sole squad effort is bound to fail unless there is little to no opposition or the squad is backing the main bulk of...
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 09-09-2014, 02:09:15
(posting on an old mobile phone)

...the team whom are effectively meat to avoid getting the plan botched in a short period.

This immediately prevents commanders intel and game knowledge advantage over the squadleader. And when it is so, commanders ideas of strategy becomes less reliable than the squadleader himself who is actually on the field getting challenged with similar frontier tasks again and again(see my rants about TTK).

This MAY vary between maps but in general sense it should tell why commander is a less desirable aspect which will get affected positively by more CQ:Head on type of maps and longer TTK.

I couldnt write all I had in mind but I think you can understand how commanders intel lacks compared to those on field and in which ways bf2 and fh2 differ.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 09-09-2014, 02:09:33
Commanders intel lacks because 1.arrows are not enough to tell what kind of movements and positions the enemies take, 2.campers'
effect on a certain section cannot be visualised, and 3. situations consisting 30+ combatants cannot be reliably tracked and micromanaged, as again, people die too fast for it to matter.

I should congratulate djinn for his passion towards teamplay, and also suggest joining a fhonor campaign for broadening of vision on the matter.

I cannot argue like i used to because im on this phone for 2 hrs for 3 posts but ill be bach next year.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 09-09-2014, 14:09:45
Can you please stop this?  ::)

Why are you still insisting on the fact that teamplay is allmost not possible when other more experienced people tell you the opposite? Teamplay fails when the opposition is too strong? Really? Please do me a favor and play more often - more precise: play more often with the right people on your side and then come back when you have more experience. It is ridiciolous to read those theories. Your squad is good, when it looks for a weakspot in the defence, thus opposition comes down to a minimum. If you don't do this, then your squad just sucks from a strategy POV and any teamplay mechanics won't help you when you fail right at the start. Good thing in FH2 is that the game tells you exactly when your team sucks. Those are the moments when people get desperate and frustrated.

Once more: just exchanging more shots, taking bullet after bullet or reviving people is not teamplay. It just gives people who made a mistake a second chance that they don't deserve from my POV. If you don't understand those basics then please don't dare to claim that you know it all. Especialy what it takes to be a good squadleader in FH2.

The commander role is a quite controverse topic for itself. I personaly think that this role is allmost useless and doesn't belong into the game where everything else is player controlled. If you want to have intel, use your recon planes, spread out, use binocs for scouting. In a good team all this falls into place in a quite natural way and doesn't need any forced mechanics. Clicking on a map and droping arty strikes or crates is not really playing the game in it's core sense.

Maybe you should really try new things before you claim more of this stuff. Ever had some good dogfighting with the right wingman on your side? This game offers so many possibilities to become part of a team that I sometimes don't know what to do next.

Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 09-09-2014, 19:09:58
The only way for Commander to work in FH is if he would coordinate squads in their attacks/defenses. In PR most of the times he is not needed simply because SL's will decide on their own to stay on defense or communicate with each other on what to do.

For those who don't know about it PR has an amazing integrated  mumble talking system. "H" is proximity talk (close friendlies), "Num 0" talks to your entire squad, "*" is General channel for all SL's and Commander, "/" is commander only channel and all the other "Num X" are used for talking directly to the other squads.

Now if i want another squad to join me in an attack or hold back or take another route i simply have to push the correct button and it will be through in less than 3 seconds. In FH2 i have to type and if I'm lucky it might not get lost in the amount of chat already existing. So IMO the only thing holding Teamwork a bit back in FH2 is comms.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 09-09-2014, 20:09:01
I think the reason of commanders being close to useless is how the Battlefield games are created. In BF 1942 we didn't have a commander and the game worked flawless, but it lacked the ability to form squads and to work on squad level effectively. I think squads and the communication between them is how far teamwork can get in Battlefield. That the maps are relatively small is one reason why the commander is not really necessary. SLs will see what is needed most of the time in a far shorter amount of time.

In games like ArmA I see it a bit different. In those kind of games with complex movement of troops a commander can play a much more important role and fits more into the mechanic and the huge scale. With the drones and all those little toys it makes just more sense. In BF it is just a player who clicks on the map and I find those kind of gimmicks pretty annoying. The player with the least required skill has the most power. And even in this case most of them are too dumb to click on the map at the right spot.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: th_battleaxe on 09-09-2014, 20:09:32
Hang on a minute, since when are you a dev?
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ts4EVER on 09-09-2014, 21:09:01
A week or so.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Jimi Hendrix on 10-09-2014, 02:09:02
 I am also a Dev of sorts.....


(http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/Themes/ForgottenHope/images/useron.gif) $talkker
Captain Of Devildogs
Developer Of Soldiers
(http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/Themes/ForgottenHope/images/stargmod.png)(http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/Themes/ForgottenHope/images/stargmod.png)(http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/Themes/ForgottenHope/images/stargmod.png)(http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/Themes/ForgottenHope/images/stargmod.png)(http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/Themes/ForgottenHope/images/stargmod.png)(http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/Themes/ForgottenHope/images/stargmod.png)


 ;D
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: MaJ.P.Bouras on 10-09-2014, 12:09:42
You did not make your name bold

2/11 would not illegally pirate.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 10-09-2014, 14:09:47
Quote from: hitm4k3r on 09-09-2014, 20:09:01
The player with the least required skill has the most power. And even in this case most of them are too dumb to click on the map at the right spot.

Depends on how you define "skill". The "commander" does not need any special "skillz" (as in twitchy reflexes and laser vision) to do his job. On the other hand The Commander needs a very big skillset to be an effective member of the team. In fact I'd say the amount of required skills that the current Commander needs in FH2 is so big that nobody in this community has them.
Basically, the Commander in FH2 needs to have the following:

Obviously, such a person probably does not exist in this (or any for that matter) community. So how do we help him? We can go two ways, either abolish him completely (which is what FH2 has been doing ever since commander radios have started to disappear on newer maps) or give him more tools to do his job.

Basically, currently the Commander in FH2 is like your crazy rambling grandma that you tend to ignore all the time, but when you need something first thing you do is go cry to her to give you some cash so you can buy some shiny stuff.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 10-09-2014, 16:09:14
1. I only said the situation concerning commander within boundaries of FH2 wrongfully does not suit its original vision.

2.I've never mentioned revive as an addition to the gameplay.

3. You mention successful organisation. You are delusional.

I would actually like to have a conversation where we listen to each other so that you may stop the "buyudun00b" bullshit and bring in the value of thought.

Really, I am trying my best to make you not respond to me in this thread.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 10-09-2014, 17:09:19
Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being *Lebisey* and Bardia.

Clevely organising 5 men to attack a loosely defended flag should bring an impact with high rates of success. Organising and dividing 30 men to attack different flags simultaneously should bring in astounding feats and thrilling and breathtaking combat.

Reliance on fraggers and campers make the game stale apart from the AAS push maps where it is more funneled and the play area is tight.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Gotkai on 10-09-2014, 17:09:13
What shall i say? Hm.
To make it short: NO!

Exactly the opposite is true. Only on narrow maps this Commandar Artillery is useful. Otherwise troops are spreaded over a very large area to inflict significant damage.

Skill for commander is really secondary. In many cases it is completely useless to have a commander in the team. No matter what skill.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: radiosmersh on 10-09-2014, 17:09:28
Quote from: Airshark79 on 10-09-2014, 17:09:19
Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being St.Lo and Bardia.

Clevely organising 5 men to attack a loosely defended flag should bring an impact with high rates of success. Organising and dividing 30 men to attack different flags simultaneously should bring in astounding feats and thrilling and breathtaking combat.

Reliance on fraggers and campers make the game stale apart from the AAS push maps where it is more funneled and the play area is tight.
I thought you quit.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 10-09-2014, 18:09:33
Quote from: Airshark79 on 10-09-2014, 16:09:14
1. I only said the situation concerning commander within boundaries of FH2 wrongfully does not suit its original vision.

2.I've never mentioned revive as an addition to the gameplay.

3. You mention successful organisation. You are delusional.

I would actually like to have a conversation where we listen to each other so that you may stop the "buyudun00b" bullshit and bring in the value of thought.

Really, I am trying my best to make you not respond to me in this thread.

I am not telling you to shut up or anything. It is just your attitude towards people who play that game for a far longer time than you that is pretty annoying and even arrogant. We have people here who play the game for allmost over a decade now with thousends of hours. I am more or less a "newcomer" aswell as I started playing the game in 2009/2010. The difference between you and most other new players is that they are a bit more down-to-earth and don't tell the "older" players how to enjoy their game. They ask questions so that they can improve themself or how they can have a more enjoyable time. Listening to you it sounds as if you have mastered the game to it's fullest potential in every aspect, what you clearly haven't. Don't tell me, that I can't have teamplay in my game. It is really annoying.  >:(

I never called you a "noob" or anything, what doesn't make any sense in this game anyway. You never stop learning in FH2 and I hope that you will undertstand that at one point of our "conversation". Because atm it feels like talking with a wall. It is the same as if I would start to tell my grandfather who is 50 years older how he should have lived his live. There are things that you can't replace - experience being one of them. But you on the other hand call me delusional and leave it as it is. What am I supposed to do with such an arrogant statement?
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 13-09-2014, 17:09:58
Quote from: hitm4k3r on 10-09-2014, 18:09:33
I am not telling you to shut up or anything. It is just your attitude towards people who play that game for a far longer time than you that is pretty annoying and even arrogant. We have people here who play the game for allmost over a decade now with thousends of hours. I am more or less a "newcomer" aswell as I started playing the game in 2009/2010. The difference between you and most other new players is that they are a bit more down-to-earth and don't tell the "older" players how to enjoy their game. They ask questions so that they can improve themself or how they can have a more enjoyable time. Listening to you it sounds as if you have mastered the game to it's fullest potential in every aspect, what you clearly haven't. Don't tell me, that I can't have teamplay in my game. It is really annoying.  >:(

I never called you a "noob" or anything, what doesn't make any sense in this game anyway. You never stop learning in FH2 and I hope that you will undertstand that at one point of our "conversation". Because atm it feels like talking with a wall. It is the same as if I would start to tell my grandfather who is 50 years older how he should have lived his live. There are things that you can't replace - experience being one of them. But you on the other hand call me delusional and leave it as it is. What am I supposed to do with such an arrogant statement?


Ok. I have two days free, lets make the most of it.

Sorry for calling you delusional and leaving that statement as it was. The fact to the matter was that I had little spare time and had a ten-year old touchscreen phone.

Firstly, I am not telling people how to enjoy a game. I am merely telling the community of FH public forums that there are problems that needs to be taken care of and there are other options other than pretending everything works great and FH2 is the best mod ever with the best gameplay ever. (as in teamplay, map activity, gunplay, the things the newbs have to deal with(in many cases they prefer not to), PR, commander, and the view towards vBF2 community)

Seondly, calling me arrogant is a bad idea, because it is hard as heck to tell regulars of here about my unothodox views. It's not easy reading people who think the complete opposite, and posts that sometimes make fun of the mistakes of my train of thought. I am not talking as the last few years were in vain, but I am only telling there is still a future and time to take action.

Honestly, I may not be the best in this game. But that doesn't mean that I've learnt nothing in the last 10 or so years. About both gaming and Battlefield. It is easier for me to see why DICE designed the genre and how they made it evolve in the following years with additions until after 2142 compared to many others. I think mainly around those, Battlefields from 1942 to 3, Project Reality, Forgotten Hope 2, and being the ordinary gamer I am. I have my experiences and these are conclusions I put up according to them. This is nothing compared to philisophy.

My views, teamplay is weak, and so is gunplay. I know the anonymous athmosphere of BF2 and suitableness of 2142 for commander action and what it was and how it was able to do with cooperating squads. This mod is made on the Refractor 2 engine. I believe acting in spite of its limitations is a mistake, and trying some aspects of the working formulas will not do any harm, if you don't count extra knowledge.

Similar paragraphs, one month.

Quote
Your squad is good, when it looks for a weakspot in the defence, thus opposition comes down to a minimum. If you don't do this, then your squad just sucks from a strategy POV and any teamplay mechanics won't help you when you fail right at the start.

Well, you describe the best way to win in FH2, sneak until you get into a virtual zone that defines who owns the area, and flashcap. But, from the FPS standpoint, it has little value in terms of gameplay. In terms of communication and interaction for an FPS title. There are only two other scenarios, one where whole teams fight for a 200 meter stretch, or the low-player-density 1v1 gamblefest which I described in the fragility thread.

This gets me back to the idea behind battlefield(with 1hk). Squad battles are crippled, and there is no battle in this gamblefest. The case is way clearer to see in the campaign rounds. The way to play you describe, was the most common way to do it unless the defended flag was one of the last three remaining.

I know what you mean by strategy, and I think it is delusional to expect it to happen with every rounds in every single day. Communication will be more utilised once it pays off. And not talking about the revive mechanic.

@Gotkai Your views are no better than mine, just the opposite. But I remember you hated assisting people.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 13-09-2014, 20:09:59
Well, your last sentence to Gotkai sums up pretty much what I tried to told you. Gotkai sure enough knows how artillery works in FH2. And now please read carefully: he didn't give you an opinion of how arty works. He gave you a fact. I hope you know the difference between those two.

I never said that you haven't learned anything btw. Please don't inpterprete the things as it pleases you, maybe read things twice. I said that you never stop learning in this game. So if you really think that artillery works better on bigger than on smaller maps then you cleary haven't learned enough. Those are not even facts that you need to base on experience. In this case it is just a matter of logic. Some changes to the mod happened because of this fact.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 13-09-2014, 21:09:14
As far as I can remember, I stated no opinions about artillery
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Gotkai on 14-09-2014, 08:09:04
Wait? That's correct. Somehow.
You wrote :

Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being *Lebisey* and Bardia.

Ok. Commander has 2 tools. Artillery and dropping a supply box.
If you are not talking about artillery, what else are you talking about? Supply boxes?

Btw. I'm not angry with assisting people. I'm sick of injuring people although, giving up my position and that advantage and in return i'm getting shot, just because that guy had a lot of luck. That's i'm sick of. My screenshot folder is full of pictures with assistpoints for kills during the spawnscreen because the first hit didn't kill. You mean i should feel lucky with that? Because i had a nice battledialogue?
This kind of feature is exactly the reason why i quit BF2 years ago.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 14-09-2014, 09:09:08
Quote from: Gotkai on 14-09-2014, 08:09:04
Wait? That's correct. Somehow.
You wrote :

Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being *Lebisey* and Bardia.

Ok. Commander has 2 tools. Artillery and dropping a supply box.
If you are not talking about artillery, what else are you talking about? Supply boxes?

Talking about orders. In lebisey, the three attack paths are easy to get organised on in terms of squad organisation, and commander has a possibility of impact on orchestrating those. So is bardia, in the right conditions.

You are right to be mad at kill assists because it is an untouched and unexplored issue with the current design of FH2, where your single bullet doesn't kill but the enemies' does. But in BF2 expecting to have killed everyone you took the first shot against is, I don't know, against the weapon design?
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Gotkai on 14-09-2014, 09:09:19
Wait??? Orders?!?

We are talking about FH2. Everyone should be able after 2-3 rounds to see how a map works. If it's not in the map description, but therefore it's necessary to read it.

FH2 is not Operation Barbarossa. It's on a tactical, not a strategical level.

2-3 good squadleaders (you know who you are) can organize that better than any commander could. I'd rather choose a guy capping flags than a guy sitting on a radio, talking bullshit and clicking every 3 minutes on a minimap.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 14-09-2014, 10:09:10
Yep, but the thing is, now we need "good" SLs because they have to do ALL the work. They need to keep track of the spotted things on the minimap, they need to look out for enemies near the flag they are attacking, they need to hide so they don't get their ass killed...

If the commander could help the SLs feeding them valuable info (for example through markers on the map),  even an "average " SL could play better, because he doesn't need to "guess" where the heavier enemy units like Tigers and infantry squads are, he could just look at the damn map that would have the latest info on it (if the commander is competent to get that info from other squads).

Nobody's talking about "orders". After all, the SL can always refuse the order. The commander's role should be keeping an eye on the big picture and advising SL to take the less defended paths.
Sadly, as every SL knows the commander currently can't really do his job because of the limited toolset, they just ignore him, and rightly so. But if the commander is competent (has a really good photographic memory) and the team is cooperative (lots of spotters), he sometimes gives good advice. Yet SLs still ignore him because they don't believe him.

The bar for SLing is huge. Yeah, we have the "good" SLs now. What happens when they leave? Or when they teamstack? How will the gameplay look then? It will look bad, as new players need to play a certain amount of hours to get to know all the maps and the good paths of advance and hiding spots.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 14-09-2014, 10:09:05
Quote from: Airshark79 on 14-09-2014, 09:09:08
Talking about orders. In lebisey, the three attack paths are easy to get organised on in terms of squad organisation, and commander has a possibility of impact on orchestrating those. So is bardia, in the right conditions.

If you really think that a commander will have an impact on how those three ways are attacked then you are clearly dreaming. The only thing that a commander giving orders does is to annoy and distract the SL. And you want to know why? Because he just lacks a lot of information that people see on the frontline. He knows nothing about the amount of people in an area, what kind of resistance or what else is to be expected. This can only work when we have more communication tools, wich on the other hand doesn't work because of how FH2 is designed in general. It is too fast paced to alow this kind of communication. I am playing FH2 not because I want to play one map for several hours. I like diversity and variation of the scenaries. Desicions have to be made quick.

Naturally people will attack those routes either where the resistance is on a minimum level or just where they like to attack for different kind of reasons. Tanks naturally go for the east part on Lebisey because it is more open. Now some people will say "but he drops crates and arty". Well, getting repaired by real players is much more reliable, faster and most player controlled artillery pieces are much more accurate thus inflicting less teamkills and more damage to the enemy team and they give you far more abilities. The only map where I sometimes see commander arty working to an extent is PdH. But that's pretty much it. Most of the time a good mortar gunner is much more valuable on that map though, giving smoke support and stuff like that.

I took part in the last FlH campaign and although being a nice experience I always felt that the chain of command took too much time being much more a hasle than an advantage. Sometimes several hundred tickets went to waste just because people were discussing also for pretty simple decisions. Communication between squadleaders is much more important than a dude on a chair giving orders to people who mostly know better what to do next anyway in a far shorter amount of time. I don't need a commander in FH2, simple as that. In PR it can make much more sense since he has more tools and the commander is part of the mechanic, but not in FH2.

@Lucky: "Yep, but the thing is, now we need "good" SLs because they have to do ALL the work. They need to keep track of the spotted things on the minimap, they need to look out for enemies near the flag they are attacking, they need to hide so they don't get their ass killed..."

Do you really think that a commander with better tools can replace skilled SLs?
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 14-09-2014, 11:09:55
I don't, but he can certainly help the less skilled ones. A valuable advice is a valuable advice, no matter who it comes from. The point of the Commander should be to ease the communication between squads. If each SL has the necessary info without asking the other SL through typing, he can only keep the communication to a minimum and focus on making a plan. Many SL just give up to pass valuable info to the other squads because it's just too time consuming to type it all out, and spotting markers fade fast and disappear if you get killed. Then the other squad comes and falls into the same trap again.

And FH2 is not really that fast paced so it couldn't work. All it takes is more markers for the Commander and SLs who know how to use the binoculars. The other tools are here, voip is working most of the time. If the commander asks for info the SL can easily answer him, or even type it while he's hiding.

Adding a scout plane that's remote controlled would also be cool and replace the current, barely used scout planes. Maybe also ability to call in a tactical airstrike for the Commander kit?
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Gotkai on 14-09-2014, 11:09:16
Its easier to watch the minimap for 3 seconds than to communicate with the commander.

There are tactical airstrikes. Therefore you use planes. Invite a pilot in your squad and you can give them targets. Many times used on Cobra and Totalize.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 14-09-2014, 11:09:11
Well, what I meant with fast paced was not necessarily about the FPS gameplay itself. Communication between different instances takes time, time that you don't have in FH2. Thatswhy I mentioned PR where matches last far longer and where you don't run out of tickets so fast.

With adding remote controlled scout planes and stuff like that we get into a discussion of gaming philosophy again where it is pretty much a matter of taste. I personaly enjoy FH2 as it is because remote controlled stuff is reduced to a minimum. It just doesn't fit into the WWII scenary from my POV. Tripwire added/enhanced this stuff in RO and it made the game worse in that aspect. An AI controlled untouchable plane circeling over your head and giving your position away has nothing to do with teamplay from my perspective. A wallhack (basicly what those scout planes are) makes a game more accessible and easy, I will admit that. But the question is whether it makes the quality of the game better for all people on the server.

I had that discussion with Flippy a few days ago in terms of artillery. I rather see the player really involved in the battle thus placing real artillery pieces on a map instead of a chair. A "player" hiding in a corner playing god on his minimap is not really a player in the core sense of the game. I can accept things like scoutcars or command cars with the abillity to give that kind of UV scan in a certain radius, because this implies that this player really enters the battle and it is a tradeoff for the power that is given to the player.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 14-09-2014, 12:09:39
Quote from: Gotkai on 14-09-2014, 11:09:16
Its easier to watch the minimap for 3 seconds than to communicate with the commander.

We seem to agree here. That's exactly the point I'm saying. If the commander could put more permanent markers for spotted stuff you wouldn't need to communicate with him directly. All the info you need would be on the actual map. When you spot something he could mark it so it warns other squads even if you die, or forget to keep it spotted all the time. Only thing you need to say to him is when he asks: "Is that Tiger you spotted 3 minutes earlier down" is simple Yes/No so he can update the map.

@hitm4k3r
You're right that there needs to be a sense of risk for the commander. But implying that the commander "is not part of the game" just because he's sitting on a chair and not getting shot at is just stupid. And this "playing god" is not what I meant. I thought something more in line with a floating camera in the sky, with manual spotting, no auto spotting. Sure, if you give him a auto spotting ability, you might make him closer to god, but he's still not always safe, the radios are also at flags, not only in the mainbase. Maybe put them in open tents so the other side can airstrike them? Or just put (static?) command cars, then they should be easily destroyable by airstrikes.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ts4EVER on 14-09-2014, 12:09:16
Commander is useless and was a stupid idea from the start. You know who the real commander is? The mapper. He determines the general strategy, as in which flags to attack when and from where. It's up to the players to figure out the best (tactical) way to do it.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 14-09-2014, 12:09:42
Ts, I wouldn't call it useless and stupid. It was an innovative idea at that time, albeit a bit too complicated and idealistic to work in a fast paced game. Sure the mapper is the one that makes the general strategy and flow of the map, but the game is a dynamic, living thing. Once the map goes out of the editor and you put actual intelligent agents (be it people or bots) on it it will never play exactly the same. People make decisions and those decisions change the game.

And I agree it's up to the players to figure out the way to do it. I don't consider the commander the actual "strategic" level. He's still just a tactician, or perhaps a more fitting definition, a liaison officer with the purpose of transferring information and mediating between different squads. The SLs are the brain, the Commander is just a supporting asset to help them act and think.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Slayer on 14-09-2014, 23:09:38
When I'm an SL I always follow the orders of the commander. Of course I can think that I know it better and complain, but if I want the commander (and my team) to be successful, the first step is to follow the orders.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Gotkai on 15-09-2014, 07:09:42
Me not. In many cases i don´t just think to know it better, i KNOW i know it better than any commander noob with 5hours playtime.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Slayer on 15-09-2014, 20:09:42
Quote from: Gotkai on 15-09-2014, 07:09:42
Me not. In many cases i don´t just think to know it better, i KNOW i know it better than any commander noob with 5hours playtime.
People never learn the gropes of this game if they get ignored all the time by vets. A little more help can improve our playerbase.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 15-09-2014, 23:09:59
Fact is, if I am new to a game I usualy don't pretend to play commander and guide players who know it better.

I like to help new people, invite them to my squads and have some fun while giving them a few hints here and there. But when there comes a new player who expects to achieve something out of nowhere then I am not sure whether I personaly want to do this. Because I would like to enjoy my game. First learn the basics, then start to lead/command people and not the other way around.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 16-09-2014, 16:09:42
Mapper can only be the commander in push maps. In my opinion mapper should strive for variety.
All gray geometry

Commander seat could be a bad idea, except for its relationship with arty.

It is also important to note that player controlled arty could be completely useless whereas commander arty is directly tactical and mostly failproof.

SL's performances also could vary between maps and conditions. I particularly enjoy smoke as a tool but in some maps it is a waste of time.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 16-09-2014, 16:09:01
Quote from: Airshark79 on 16-09-2014, 16:09:42
Mapper can only be the commander in push maps. In my opinion mapper should strive for variety.
All gray geometry

Commander seat could be a bad idea, except for its relationship with arty.

It is also important to note that player controlled arty could be completely useless whereas commander arty is directly tactical and mostly failproof.

SL's performances also could vary between maps and conditions. I particularly enjoy smoke as a tool but in some maps it is a waste of time.

The mapper has a lot of influence where people can go and where not. This has nothing to do with pushmap or not. There are a lot of natural choke points on basicly every map. And what the mapper should aim for is a totaly different topic. FH2 demands a certain amount of minimum historical accuracy or background for the maps wich can be a limiting factor. On the other hand do we have tournament maps wich are more build around the whole sand box idea of the game, whereas the official maps are more a kind of a flashback into a historical battle. Both has pros and cons.

And commander is failproof you say? I have seen it failing too much for such a statement. Whether player controlled arty could be useless or not is not the matter of our discussion. I see people failing with the KT on Eppeldorf thus making it totaly useless. Doesn't change the fact that it can be damn usefull. Fact is that the player controlled artillery demands much more interaction, teamwork and skill from a team.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 16-09-2014, 18:09:30
I think meuse is a design that cannot fail, wheras StVith may turn into the worst kind of campfest. All gray leaves things to do even if your team is being destroyed. In the contrary, I should also admit that in so few scenarios there were both sides fighting for land without an owner. Chokes kill and compounds add variety

Commander arties failures are no more than the usual one
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 16-09-2014, 19:09:32
Quote from: hitm4k3r on 16-09-2014, 16:09:01
Fact is that the player controlled artillery demands much more interaction, teamwork and skill from a team.

And that fact you pulled out of... where?

I wouldn't call clicking a button "much more interaction, teamwork and skill". In fact I'd say for the commander arty to not be wasted on a very insignificant flag for a few irrelevant kills it's completely the opposite: "the commander arty needs much more interaction, teamwork and skill from a team". When people don't think as a team, why do they expect their "commander" to do it?
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 16-09-2014, 19:09:04
Well, player controlled arty doesn't work with just one click, that's the point. It requires a good spotter, a minimum of communication (smoke or HE) and atleast some aiming, even if you fire without a spot with direct fire.

Just clicking on a minimap on the next cap zone requires zero effort from a team, no matter whether there is a spot or not. You don't even have to aim. I don't really know what you want to hear in that aspect, but that's just as it is and it doesn't require rocket science to understand this. Try hitting a moving target with a 25pder on Tobruk compared to just balasting an huge area with commander arty. And commander arty can't get wasted. It reloads and you have unlimited access to it.

And your last point sums it up pretty good: the commander is the most useless player in this game. Because equal how good the team is, he doesn't change the outcome of the battle.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Mayhemic.MAD on 16-09-2014, 20:09:20
In my opinion the Commander is basically a very good idea. The problem is that it got ruined by some jerks fooling around and players not following orders of a able commander because they think they know better or just want to get kills and ignore the overall situation.
All those things can also happen in other areas, like a noob taking the KT, or squad leaders not going for the important positions, or squad members wandering around instead of sticking to their squad leader.
Fact is that the commander can dedicate all his time to follow the kills and whats happening on the map and so get a good knowledge on whats going on and direct the squads so that they are distributed for maximum efficiency. A squad leader can only afford a quick glimpse every now and then at best. And the random distribution of squads you get without a commander often fails and leads to losing the map.
So in my opinion, having a good commander can make the difference between winning and loosing a map.

The commander artillery also needs some skill to use properly. You gotta make the decision on what flag to use it, based on where your team currently is and also decide on the timing. You might make some kills anyway, but without some planning it fails to help your team advance and then you gotta wait quite some time for the next try. 
Of course on some maps like PDH, with just one flag to attack, the commander artillery might seem too overpowered and cheap, since there is not much tactics involved there.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Kubador on 16-09-2014, 21:09:41
Commander right now is pretty useless and only adds to confusion. In my view he should be just deleted or his role enhanced by giving him incentives for other players. He could get some kind of boosts to 'trade' with other team members just as squad leader has with the ability to spawn on him (you follow me and I give you a spawn closer to action). Some ideas I have on top of my head:

- swap commander artillery with a spot for user arty; spot lasts as long as normal one but has a cooldown and can be placed anywhere on map
- give spawn boost to selected SL for a while so his members spawn X% faster; useful for overpowering flag defenders etc.
- spawning some special kit (cooldown or limited uses) under SLs feet (sniper, AT, MG)

There can really be a big variety of what commander can get to bribe players into his battle plan. Both parties work with each other to benefit more than they would doing it on their own. Perfect example is the artillery system and points received by targeting assists. I think that working toward a system where teamplay creates synergy is the way to go. Alas it's a difficult task.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 16-09-2014, 21:09:03
^ There can be a lot of things. Sadly a lot of things also can't be because of engine limits. Although it seems to me some of the suggestions could work.

Maybe give the commander an ability to deploy a spawn point/reinforcements point? That way he can contribute at least a little more than currently possible. Maybe not just an "on map click" but something with the command truck. Drive it somewhere and then while in range use the commo rose to set it up. You could call it "Forward HQ" or something. I think it would be interesting on larger maps. Like a tent that spawns extra equipment for attacks. And it wouldn't be easily abused because it would require the use of the rather fragile truck.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 17-09-2014, 01:09:11
Just gonna jump in since the commander discussion is being tossed around again ;)
*cough*http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19306.0 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19306.0)*cough*

Not to necro an old thread, it'd just be easier to keep alike discussions together, considering I honestly care about how people view the commander in FH2. Feel free to copy/paste your thoughts into that thread or keep it going over there ;D
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 17-09-2014, 12:09:36
How about reenabling the sat view with lots of grain, something around 10fpm and no ability of spotting?

That should make the commander a more valid source of strategy and intel instead of a powerup.

Ive seen extra effects being used to some extent in 2142.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 17-09-2014, 12:09:26
Please not.

This isn't a modern warfare game with drones and stuff. There are just things that don't fit into the game and scenary.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 17-09-2014, 13:09:56
Just talking about making it work. Aerial photography wasnt uncommon.

Coveting 2 seats for a scout plane for a whole round could be the stupidest thing to do teamwise.

Maybe something refined with autopilot?

Because powerups can be lame.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 17-09-2014, 13:09:10
Idk, the spotter plane or the command cars just fit in more nicely from my POV. The spotter plane can be pretty usefull if it is in the right hands just in case that you haven't noticed it. One of the best tools on maps like Lebisey or Gazala. You can give arty spots on positions that are not in range of the binoculars and it is something that I consider much closer to the aerial reconnaissance that you mentioned. So nope, the recon plane is pretty much one of the most teamplay based vehicles in this game.

The commander has to controll them and be a part of the battle and not just some remote controlled top view camera. It really dosn't fit into the game and the artillery view is the maximum what I could accept as it doesn't show you the whole map and is very limited. And don't even get me started with autopiloted stuff. Can I finaly have my aimbot?  ;D

Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 17-09-2014, 17:09:28
Quote from: Airshark79 on 17-09-2014, 12:09:36
How about reenabling the sat view with lots of grain, something around 10fpm and no ability of spotting?

That should make the commander a more valid source of strategy and intel instead of a powerup.

Ive seen extra effects being used to some extent in 2142.

I guess timed black and white view that has a decent cooldown time could be a nice way of representing photo recon that was conducted at the time. Not sure how doable it is though. And the film grain could be a nice touch. Coupled with the ability to add markers it would bring a whole new metagame for the commander - deciphering intelligence info and feeding it to the map. A skilled one could help his team a lot. But make some mistakes and identify that smudge as a Tiger when it's a nice big white rock and your team might be in for a surprise.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 17-09-2014, 17:09:52
Scout planes have some problems and proper integration with commander could fix that. Autopilot for 1person use for instance

Then again overhead view could be done easier.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 17-09-2014, 19:09:16
So what kind of problems do you have with the scoutplanes? Because I have none.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: LuckyOne on 17-09-2014, 19:09:55
He's mostly saying from commander's point of view the ability to use the map from scout plane is not very useful because scout pilots are rare (and get killed often).
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 17-09-2014, 20:09:52
So getting killed often is a problem? What makes the commander player more special than the normal player?

Using the minimap in the scoutplane is a problem? Well, if I can do this with a normal plane than a skilled and experienced commander should atleast be able to do the same thing, don't you think?
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 17-09-2014, 20:09:15
Commander cannot use the scoutplane by himself and i believe the scanner sweep is a bad idea
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: hitm4k3r on 17-09-2014, 21:09:23
Sorry, but I am not sure whether I can follow your logic. On one hand you scream for more teamwork and on the other hand you want mechanics simplified so that they require less teamwork so that people can be even more powerfull on their own.

A good commander can use the scoutplane on his own to uncover hidden units what I find pretty powerfull and together with a team mate (teamplay) the plane can become even more usefull. Where is the problem?

I think I don't have to explain you that the commander farms a lot of points anyway just by being commander.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 18-09-2014, 21:09:44
Seems we both cant understand each other, and the thread is derailed too far.

Lets meet again in two weeks. Im not in an ok position to write right now. Ill open a discussion and ill also have an ability to read the previous thread that was pointed out.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 20-09-2014, 22:09:13
Commander is nice, but I think the scope of FH2 doesn't permit it to really do what it needs to.
So essentially all it does is call arty and drop ammo boxes; the latter of which is not useful in most maps where there is too many ammo boxes as is.

But in an imperfect world, some people do excel at being commanders.
Especially on maps like Point du Hoc, a good commander can put an end to a German attempt at a counter-attack where otherwise, a good squad will have to have hankered down and blunted the enemy in CQB.

Some commanders even get people to follow their orders with a bit of command arrows and clear explanation of why as well as a general sense that they are seasoned players, and not n00bs.

Still, this is the really rare case.

But commander discussion over.

We are talking teamplay, which may include commander, but should be focused on the How-To as proof its function, not simply argument about Game Design.

 
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 26-09-2014, 10:09:34
Back to topic!
Omaha beach,25th September,2014 21:20 ECT

Our squad was new and headed strait to hell,middle flag WT72.SL dinjix first ran out and trow some smoke while hole army of MG were firing at us.We found some cover,fired few round and waited to arty clean the beach.We didnt have choice and only way was to rush the flag.Soon two flags,middle and left ,were ours and our division were already attacking third flag.But thousands of germans were defending third flag.Soon were fights chest of chest,granates and knifes were only way to get forward.We were capturing trench by trench,germans were waiting behind every corner.Dinjix was covering me but soon we were surrounded and killed.There were now PoW.After several attacks from beach and behind-land and friendly fire of arty third flag was ours.While we were taking care about german partisans soldiers,taking few drinks to celebrate and gathering at one place, squad 7 was already captured one flag and was deeply into enemy teritory.SL dinjix said we need to support squad 7 fast and were in move.When we got to squad 7,flag was neutralized and we needed to rush.Soon were fights like at beach.Granates, death soldiers and granates were everywhere and front line was going forward slow but safe.After arty we charged and captured secon flag with squad 5.In meanwhile ship arty was destroying church flag and germans morale was low .When we attacked flag there where only 10-15 Germans defending it and victory was fast and sweet.We sit down to rest,turned radio to hear news about Gold beach landing(where we where send to after).Commander give us some medals although we didnt want;Medal of Honor,Purple Heart,Silver Star and 1 day of rest,till 26thSeptember,2014 :)

P.S.Dont know who was in squad 7 but they were good! :)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 26-09-2014, 10:09:22
Squadleader was dinjix,dinn it was nice expirience.Only he and me where talking but squad was also cooperate 4-5 men but his leadership was main.That is the first time i win on omaha beach on american side. :)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 28-09-2014, 11:09:00
Thanks, Ivancic1941.

I hope I was't to rough. I get that way, I'm afraid in the heat of things.

The beach part was frustrating. Total chaos. And I was especially frustrated we weren't the ones to take the flags, but we definitely tied a bulk of the enemy and helped squad 7.

VOIP, smoke, coordinatin with other arms of the army, and being aware of what other squads are doing and basin your squad action on that. I feel these things make all the difference in teamplay.

It really does.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 28-09-2014, 11:09:56
Well,it can be said we were really fighting and always in move.I hope we will play again 8)
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 29-09-2014, 07:09:06
The gold beach round on SAT was like this.

1. we took hable according to the exploits I had learned from randoom, and we waited for the rest of the team to take the swamps.

2. we moved out for swamps, told the rest to defend hable and coincidentally lost hable, we took swamps in the third try with a shitton of smoke, but lost it trying to clear up the west end of the trench.

3.we once again left for hable and decided to defend it till the end, moved and waited at beachhead when it was captured.

4. we waited and waited until I got really mad and decided to rush into the capzone of the swamps. After a lucky triple kill(have I ever mentioned how much I hate 1s1k?) me and my squad managed to take control of the beach without a second of armor support.

And a bullet takes me out of nowhere so our fighting force to take the southwestern flag is halved, and we lose the match  struggling to defend the beachhead.

Squadplay works best when you make sure it doesnt fight. Because when dug up its doomed to detoriate.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Airshark79 on 29-09-2014, 07:09:14
Surely these were different rounds but this is what happens when the teams are stacked. That night we didnt win a single match, even mareth line, as axis.

To be honest I can emphatise with teamswitching semi competent people. Because noobs are not only ineffective at communication, but also they are sure to die when they face their only challenges.

And they barely know the maps so they get no help against campers.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 29-09-2014, 15:09:10
My usually tactic is to die a lot ;D.Im not some expert but i always have more dies then kills(but not when im on arty).That is because usually my team is camping,tanks are nowhere and not supporting,..Then i feel that i need to rush and try something or die.That is always on omaha.Everybody is at right beach flag,near AT gun doing nothing because they know germans are in trench!!So i use my smoke or granate and charge into it!         
In 90% of my charges I kill one or two germans(sometimes i continue or sometimes die)AFTER that, my team capture the flag and i dont get my Medal of Honor :'(
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Sergeant_Roland on 15-10-2014, 18:10:45
I think that if you want to improve teamplay you need to make a good communication system (Like the mumble in Project Reality) Also you need to get that "fear" to players that dying is bad so they can improve following orders etc.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 15-11-2014, 20:11:53
One anegdote:
THis night on 15.11.2014 i was playing on 762 Ranked and i was in (ZF)Dreamdghf.. squad.Vossenack.We  were driving from german baze to the south flag (down from vossenack church), four of us in Kublewagen. Then in front of us three americans also in kubelwagen cross fast to the some barn.We go after them and parked next to them but on the other side of the wall next to that barn.It was like real gang style fight.We were shooting at them and then into us.One of them shot two of our when one ours take him.I took one right when i jumped from Kubel and were fighting with last one.It was tense and then GERMAN hetzer took me and him ;D(LOL).It was great to watch and we were laughting a lot after. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 15-11-2014, 20:11:57
And if anyone knows who was in that squad 15.11.2014 at 7 hours ECT,Vossenack please write.Or just squadleader name(If it helps i was commander 2 rounds before Vossenack).Also if anyone knows if IrishReloaded,Berkolok,drama123 or BEATRIXX(NL) have their youtube acount and if they are recording.
Title: Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
Post by: djinn on 19-12-2014, 14:12:53
"It takes ONE squad to tip the balance"


ATTACKING
Often times, you'll find yourself moving on an enemy of aproximately equal strength.

1. To break the stalemate, and tip the balance in your team's favor, locate the enemy flank and attack them from there.
2. Everything from a single unit to a squad, to an army have a flank. By attacking them there, you put them on the defensive and weaken their attack strength in any single direction.
3. Maintain the flanking attack, and push into them as hard as possible to force them to split their forces up or face being crushed between two armies.
4. Once in range of their flag, get into the cap zone, keeping your squad leader in a defensible rear position. You will maintain your reinforcement, and eliminate theirs.
5. Once the area is secure, position yourself to repel a counter-attack. NEVER defend from behind a flag.


DEFENDING
1. Keep any defensive guns active at all times. Call in auxiliary support to deal with out-of-range enemy threats that prevent you keeping your guns working such as artillery or air assets.
2. Use mines at flank entry points so you can focus on a manageable number of routes the enemy can come at you. Replace mines that serve, and keep situational awareness of the strongest enemy push.
3. Rinse, repeat to ensure waves upon waves crash against your defensive lines.
4. When facing the hardest enemy push, all your line to compress to allow for the greatest defensive impact against the enemy. Once the enemy attack weakens, push them as far as your original positions before assessing if you can launch your own attack or re-establish your defenses. Unless the first condition is met, DO NOT PUSH PAST YOUR ORIGINAL LINES OR you will stretch your defense team too thin to be effective.
5. To know when it's time to organize an attack after a successful defense, get a feel for the goings of the battle, and begin your own offensive once their attack is broken. You can tell this by a lull in the fighting, with the enemy not showing any sign of making tactical gains. Any fighting should be seen at this point as being mere stragglers, and should be dealt with swiftly as you start your offense, to prevent the enemy taking the initiative once again.


Final notes,
i. The flow of battle is about who has the initiative. Take the initiative and keep it, forcing the enemy to play a defensive battle at all times.
ii. In defense, cause the enemy to crash against your defensive lines, compressing it only enough to absorb their greatest impact rather than break.
iii. Begin your own offensive once their attack breaks. Indefinite defenses are unsustainable.