Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: Viktor2a5 on 12-01-2012, 14:01:43
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Now don't we all hate it, when we see a PIAT gunner waiting to get a tank? And then it spawns and he gets in?
It is a waste of limited kits, and I think it should be dealt with by:
Making a system like "in-this-mod-to-bf2" where you enter an vehicle, it says, you need this kit to drive it. Now, if that could be tweeked, so that all kits, except limited can drive tanks, armored cars and other supporting-big-guns-on-wheels-or-track.
Officers offcourse, should also be able to control these vehicles.
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Ye, why not. Tanker kits should be placed near tanks though. I can't imagine anything more annoying than me in empty base with AT kit and empty tank ::)
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I dont think we should. Yes, put the tanker kit around, but as Natty said it, a player can decide to pick any kit he wants and get in a tank.
Thats the idea...
Take a bazooka and get in a tank, when you get hit in combat, you bail and take the f...er out.
So no, dont agree to this... Its free will
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Oh well, I tried
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Good idea.
Its always annoying when there is a tank killing your team, and there are no AT kits available, because people are tanking or flying around with them. Happens quite often if I think about it.
If you are in a tank, you already have something to take out tanks, you don't really need a panzerfaust that bad for some what-if scenario. Stop being selfish.
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Very good idea!
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I dont think we should. Yes, put the tanker kit around, but as Natty said it, a player can decide to pick any kit he wants and get in a tank.
Thats the idea...
Take a bazooka and get in a tank, when you get hit in combat, you bail and take the f...er out.
So no, dont agree to this... Its free will
a piat/bazooka is way to large to get into a tank, so yea, physics>free will
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PIAT and faust in tank? challenge accepted
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I dont think we should. Yes, put the tanker kit around, but as Natty said it, a player can decide to pick any kit he wants and get in a tank.
Thats the idea...
Take a bazooka and get in a tank, when you get hit in combat, you bail and take the f...er out.
So no, dont agree to this... Its free will
a piat/bazooka is way to large to get into a tank, so yea, physics>free will
And an entire lafette including a machine gun is not too heavy for one guy? physics < gameplay
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Got a question about tanker kits but it's not worth starting a new thread over - are they as plentiful as in FH1? I have only played a handful of maps in FH2 so far, haven't exactly been searching far and wide for them but so far the only tanker kits I've found is the ones next to the Vickers on Crete. Is there not as many as in FH1 or are they just spread out more and you have to hunt them down?
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There are Spawnable tanker kits, but noone uses them, totally useless.
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we're notoriously bad at placing the pickup kits in visible spots.. can always review this and make it easier to find standard kits.
need some special "driver" kit to drive, or else the game kills you or you can't drive? No.
We dont let players cast judgement on how other players choose to play their class. If you dont want to drive tanks with AT kit, dont do it. But the next guy might think that's the most fun way to play.
If there are too few AT kits on some map, pleaase post in that maps feedback thread, but tbh most feedback Ive seen is that are too many AT kits, so a few driving around in tanks dont affect the overall combat balance.
Especially since both teams does it, they cancel eachother out. :)
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we're notoriously bad at placing the pickup kits in visible spots.. can always review this and make it easier to find standard kits.
need some special "driver" kit to drive, or else the game kills you or you can't drive? No.
We dont let players cast judgement on how other players choose to play their class. If you dont want to drive tanks with AT kit, dont do it. But the next guy might think that's the most fun way to play.
If there are too few AT kits on some map, pleaase post in that maps feedback thread, but tbh most feedback Ive seen is that are too many AT kits, so a few driving around in tanks dont affect the overall combat balance.
Especially since both teams does it, they cancel eachother out. :)
There is the other way round, which is almost perfect, when you enter driver position you automatically switch to tanker kit and limited kits are freed up. Solved and adds realism so the bailed tanker (let's say, in a M5 Stuart and saw a panther incoming with nowhere to run away...) who survived is not hiding in the bush with his bazooka waiting for a revenge (instead, he got a pathetic pistol and the only chance is to spam the radio with his binocs). Also discourages taxi with tanks and would give forgetful people binoculars or/and a wrench.
The only drawback would be someone who just want a ride accidentally switched to/enters driver's position. But I guess that is less an issue.
Though I doubt whether it is possible :(
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This idea is very good. Make it like the NCO kit and evrybody will notice it after few rounds. Or just make guys with limited AT kit not able to enter a tank. Ofcourse everybody plays the game on a different way, but at this point the fun of a whole team wich gets raped by a tank beats out the fun of a single player. If you bring up this theory you can also allow cheating. Because one guy plays the game as he wants and the rest get's f*cked. ::)
Why so negative about this idea. Alot of people who replied and actually play the game support this. So please take it in consideration.
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The problem is not so severe that the whole balance is screwed because guys drive tanks with AT kits. As I said, it happens in both teams, so the "problem" (which I dont even see as a problem) cancels itself out.
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I think its more about rewarding people who use the correct kit.
For now, tanker kit has no advantage over engineer kit. At least with NCO you get a pistol. With tanker, nada.
Perhaps adding some advantage of these kits and putting them close to the tank will help them get used more often.
Say, possibility of slow internal repairs maybe? The engine already supports that. Same for medic kit. Slow internal vehicle healing maybe? I mean, with pilot kit, you can at least bail a plane, so with tanker kit, I think, internal repairs is your best bet.
But preventing machine gunners, sniper, pilot and bazooka kits from entering tanks and planes? If they can be blocked as opposed to sanctioned, I totally agree. Will make players smarter with kit selection and live their roles more, but not sure if it is possible.
I mean, it will be interesting to see a zooker play hide and seek with an enemy tank when his own tank is parked there, but both he and the enemy tanker know he cant enter it.
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The problem is not so severe that the whole balance is screwed because guys drive tanks with AT kits. As I said, it happens in both teams, so the "problem" (which I dont even see as a problem) cancels itself out.
There are maps where this screws up the balance totaly. Best examples are maps like Eppeldorf or Meuse River. Same goes for maps like Ramelle or Goodwood. A guy with a Faust kit waiting for a tank in the mainbase can totaly screw up balance while his kit is needed in the Cagny and gets steam rolled. It's my experience so far. I don't want a restrictive system like in PR, where I can't pick up an enemy kit or where I can't sprint without the NIKE kit. But to block tanks and airplanes for limited kits is something that works very good in games like RO. The players don't have to read a whole manual and get instant feedback ingame. I don't know how much work it is, but this would save a lot of trouble and make the experience for all players more enjoyable and the maps would work like intended by the maper.
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The problem is not so severe that the whole balance is screwed because guys drive tanks with AT kits. As I said, it happens in both teams, so the "problem" (which I dont even see as a problem) cancels itself out.
The problem is not balabce, Its people getting annoyed, because they are getting raped by a tank constantly. Granted on both teams.
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Although I like the idea myself, although somehow I'm perfectly happy with FH2 as it is. Like a previous poster said, this is about annoyance, not the game itself. Stuff like this only gets apparent when gameplay itself sucks. On the maps where AT kits are rare you notice more quickly if a team has balanced teamplay going on or not.
Personally I'd like to see squadleaders banned from flying planes because it stalls teamplay and nullifies the added value of an SL (people can't spawn on him, he can't spot, too busy to give any orders, and why you wanna fly anyway when you're a squadleader?).
Also, and this is out of mild occasional frustration, maybe even make the SL kit mandatory for SL's. On a few occassions, when I was in arty for instance, I tried to get anyone to spot because the team was getting nowhere, only to find out that no one had a scout or NCO kit with binocs, and there were like 5 or 6 squads operational on my team.
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Personally I'd like to see squadleaders banned from flying planes because it stalls teamplay and nullifies the added value of an SL (people can't spawn on him, he can't spot, too busy to give any orders, and why you wanna fly anyway when you're a squadleader?).
While I do agree it's generally not good for the gameplay it can also be beneficial for gameplay IF the SL leads a squad of pilots that can coordinate their air strikes (or in the future a bomber squad allowing communication between the pilot and the MG gunners).
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I think its more about rewarding people who use the correct kit.
There is no "correct" kit. You can drive with a sniper rifle or even mortar kit. It makes no difference as far as the game mode and the scoring is concerned, or the mechanics. Tanker kit is IMO a failed design, I rather just tank as engineer.
If the tanker kit actually did something, then it'd be different
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Ofcourse there is correct kit >:(.
Driving with sniper rifle sure make no difference to idiot doing it, but it does take that sniper rifle from someone else. This stuff goes to same folder with people using vehicles as taxi to get to tank and so on. It's just considered bad behaviour.
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Ofcourse there is correct kit >:(.
Driving with sniper rifle sure make no difference to idiot doing it, but it does take that sniper rifle from someone else. This stuff goes to same folder with people using vehicles as taxi to get to tank and so on. It's just considered bad behaviour.
Exactly. Taxi driving is something that you can't change. Blocking vehicle use for limited or pickupkits is something, that could be changed. My questions is, why do you make all these beta tests and tweak the vehicle layouts and weapon layouts for all these maps over years, when you tell us in this thread that a guy tanking with an AT kit isn't destroying the balance? Why do you place sniper kits at all on the maps, when they don't get used because a tanker uses this kit? For me it is a contradiction. :-\
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because we safety net against idiocy ;)
look, solid design is not about arbitrary rules and constraints. It's about making the game playable no matter what you do, as a player.
Sure, we can add a bunch of weird rules and laws everywhere (like PR does) but that's... cheap, in my personal opinion. I rather provide a mod where you cant disrupt the overall game, no matter what you do as singular player. That is what is hard about design, managing player behaviour
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Like i said, dont punish or restrict... Give a carrot, not a stick.
People use pilot kits because with planes now able to engine-die in midair, you want the chance of bailing. So people DO take that kit.
People dont use medics or tanker kits because there isnt enough incentive to do so. I'd rather use an engineer kit than a tanker kit because I can bail and repair the same, I can also deal with ranged infantry, and even take out an enemy tank when I need to bail my tank.
So those kits become redundant. Put them next to a tank wont guarrantee they get used significantly more. However, give them a special ability i.e. internal repairs for instance, or something unique with their binocs maybe, or faster repair or something, and people WILL use it.
you may pick up a limited kit like an SMG, and realize the tank has spawned. you are getting raped by a panther, so you decide to use your spanking new firefly to kill the Panther. Imagine you died if you tried, or you cant enter the tank... That's no fun.
But put a tanker kit next to the tank spawn point and give the tanker kit something special, like slow internal repairs, and you will get the best of both worlds. Freedom, and more use of correct kits...
And yes, there ARE correct kits. This isnt BF Heroes, kits arent just fun variations. They are specific to a task, and there arises correct and wrong, depending on the tactical situation.
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However, give them a special ability i.e. internal repairs for instance, or something unique with their binocs maybe, or faster repair or something, and people WILL use it.
How about the ability to use binocs in a tank without having to change seat with a tanker kit. Could it be possible to do?
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internal repairs? THIS aint BATTLEFIELD 3 SON!
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I though tanker kit had both a wrench and binocs? Or am I wrong?
If it only has wrench then indeed its useless.
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I though tanker kit had both a wrench and binocs? Or am I wrong?
If it only has wrench then indeed its useless.
I´m not much of a tanker, but aren´t the binoculars completely useless? I mean, does anyone even use them, while they are tanking? If I have to choose between binoculars and a rifle, the rifle wins hands down.
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internal repairs? THIS aint BATTLEFIELD 3 SON!
Actually, this is BF2 [engine] and that is possible. As far as how much of repair, that is up to the devs to balance. It can be really slow repair that wont affect a direct tank battle (But will slightly in a realistic way) and will only matter after the confrontation where the burning tank can slowly recoup itself without needing to scream over and over for an engineer.
but yer, Binocs are somewhat useless for most tankers.
It does become useful if you decide not to reveal your tank and crawl to the edge and spot the enemy for your arty or assess the situation before making your move. Enemy tanks looking right at you can completely miss you if you are prone as opposed to sticking your turret out to use your magnified tank view.
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internal repair would be nice for a tanker kit, yes.
people who thinks bailing out and repair with the wrench is "more realistic" is not needed to listen to, what matters is what is most fun and make the tanker kit needed. so yes, Im all for it.
as for pilot kit.. what is the point of parachuting?.you're plane is dead, so you better also die and respawn at airfield and wait for a new plane..it's not like that 1 soldier life that you flew the plane with, matters.
pilots are a special breed. for them, the plane is the life. Not the avatar with the soldier model.
and what does he do when he lands with the pilot kit? gets killed by someone with rifle immediately, or walk all the way back to the airfield, just in time so someone else steals the next spawning plane.
naah, this doesnt work at all as intended. we have no actual mechanics for either pilot, tanker or medic kits. they are quite pointless, and I rather drive a tank with an AT kit so if I lose a tank fight, I can bail and have a chance against him on foot.
give the pilot kit internal repair for the plane, then we have something. same for tanker kits, and give medics placeable spawnpoints and a better medic box that has a greater sphere of healing. + give him scores for people spawning on his box + healing. Then we'd have an actual class with a role.
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internal repairs? THIS aint BATTLEFIELD 3 SON!
but yer, Binocs are somewhat useless for most tankers.
It does become useful if you decide not to reveal your tank and crawl to the edge and spot the enemy for your arty or assess the situation before making your move. Enemy tanks looking right at you can completely miss you if you are prone as opposed to sticking your turret out to use your magnified tank view.
Exactly this.You can just park your tank in a bush, and safely look without being spotted, Its useful when air is full of planes, or when you're about to cross a place where enemy tanks might be. Also binocs have more zoom than tank sights, so its easier to find camping tanks with them.And since you are out of your tank, it doesn't make any engine noise.
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internal repair would be nice for a tanker kit, yes.
people who thinks bailing out and repair with the wrench is "more realistic" is not needed to listen to, what matters is what is most fun and make the tanker kit needed. so yes, Im all for it.
as for pilot kit.. what is the point of parachuting?.you're plane is dead, so you better also die and respawn at airfield and wait for a new plane..it's not like that 1 soldier life that you flew the plane with, matters.
pilots are a special breed. for them, the plane is the life. Not the avatar with the soldier model.
and what does he do when he lands with the pilot kit? gets killed by someone with rifle immediately, or walk all the way back to the airfield, just in time so someone else steals the next spawning plane.
naah, this doesnt work at all as intended. we have no actual mechanics for either pilot, tanker or medic kits. they are quite pointless, and I rather drive a tank with an AT kit so if I lose a tank fight, I can bail and have a chance against him on foot.
give the pilot kit internal repair for the plane, then we have something. same for tanker kits, and give medics placeable spawnpoints and a better medic box that has a greater sphere of healing. + give him scores for people spawning on his box + healing. Then we'd have an actual class with a role.
Well some people just like historical accuracy... (And roleplaying the great escape back to the friendly lines after being shot down 8))
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internal repair would be nice for a tanker kit, yes.
people who thinks bailing out and repair with the wrench is "more realistic" is not needed to listen to, what matters is what is most fun and make the tanker kit needed. so yes, Im all for it.
as for pilot kit.. what is the point of parachuting?.you're plane is dead, so you better also die and respawn at airfield and wait for a new plane..it's not like that 1 soldier life that you flew the plane with, matters.
pilots are a special breed. for them, the plane is the life. Not the avatar with the soldier model.
and what does he do when he lands with the pilot kit? gets killed by someone with rifle immediately, or walk all the way back to the airfield, just in time so someone else steals the next spawning plane.
naah, this doesnt work at all as intended. we have no actual mechanics for either pilot, tanker or medic kits. they are quite pointless, and I rather drive a tank with an AT kit so if I lose a tank fight, I can bail and have a chance against him on foot.
give the pilot kit internal repair for the plane, then we have something. same for tanker kits, and give medics placeable spawnpoints and a better medic box that has a greater sphere of healing. + give him scores for people spawning on his box + healing. Then we'd have an actual class with a role.
Well, we could have medic kits more useful by making bleed matter. For instance, we dont have enough medic kit anyway. And where we do, they are hidden. I know its not realistic to use medical kits etc, etc, so I dont expect it to become a class per se.
Instead, make bleed slower. When you get a shot that makes you bleed, you shouldn't start bleeding immediately.
Instead, you slowly start to go through the phases, like PR, from a mild bleed, where you get slight reddening of the screen, but can still run etc, to a worse degree of bleed, as we have now, but with better vision. Then your vission goes like we currently have and finally, you die, after a LONG time.
A bandage will slow the process from going from phase 1, to phase 2 (walking slow) to phase 3 (Blinded), so you can DEAL with it for a time.
The medic will not just have more bandages, but a medical kit that allows him to completely fix a bleed, albeit slowly. Also the medic can heal players in vehicles, so it will be good for medics to stick to trucks etc.
They CAN defend themselves, but mostly, players will keep them around to prevent the attack stalling because wounds are becoming a problem.
The way it would play out, even wounds that dont get to a bleed, will remain and keep piling until people start bleeding etc. And no bandage can stop that. They can only slow it down. But medics will be able to restore health all the way back.
I dont think pilots should be able to do repairs, because that will be going into the arcade i.e mid-air repairs, and wont represent RL in any way, whereas tank repairs sort of do. But you do have a point about pilot kits not being awfully useful.
But back to tankers.
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Well some people just like historical accuracy... (And roleplaying the great escape back to the friendly lines after being shot down 8))
historical, you mean tank driver exits the tank and whips out magic wrench, bangs a few times on the hull and restores an almost wrecked tank to perfect factory-fresh condition.
lol ::)
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Internal repairs for plane... just when you thought you had seen it all... ::) ::) ::)
Sorry, that is a ridiculous suggestion. :D
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Yes, having planes return to base from time to time is necessary for balance and gameplay.
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historical, you mean tank driver exits the tank and whips out magic wrench, bangs a few times on the hull and restores an almost wrecked tank to perfect factory-fresh condition.
lol ::)
It´s historical and "realistic" in the sense that the tank is out of the game for a while.
While a self-repairing vehicles is still capable of driving around, shooting its guns etc. (=being active) the tanker who had to retreat to a safe spot to repair the damage is "out" (=being passive), because he has to actually leave the vehicle and work on it, yet at the same time has to make sure noone sneaks up behind him or has to watch out for planes/other vehicles.
Total realism can´t be simulated in a game, that´s right, but there are tools and mechanisms (you call them "arbitrary") that can create the illusion of "realism".
The wrench is such a tool and thus works well, if you want to simulate a vehicle being damaged and its crewman being forced into passiveness, just the way it was in "reality".
It takes a "special breed" of gamers of course, who anticipate such game mechanics (ASA framework is one of many reasons why PR is still active with a pretty big playerbase, because the Devs make such "arbitrary rules", yet players are willing to follow it for the sake of a "realistic" game experience).
If you´re your aim is the "LOLconstantaction"-direction of most shooters we see today, "arbitrary tools" such as "manual repair" will probably not work. But I hope FH2 doesn´t want to fully go that way...
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I'm against all this auto repair crap. The function of the wrench atleast makes you thinking about the situation and not only to go rambo with the tank. And whats with auto repair in a KT?
Same goes for auto repair of planes. The system as it is now, works flawless and is balanced in a quiet good way. The discusion was more about, how to keep the current system with some restricitons, wich are not too heavy. But adding these auto heal/repair stuff would change the balance and gameplay much more, than just blocking the tanks and planes for limited kits.
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let me put it different.
I dont want planes to auto repair, or they will stay airborne etc... and pilots never repair their planes in midair.
Tankers should be able to do some minor repair...like a bandaid of repair on their tanks, very slow and yes, internal. It gives the kit an advantage to be used, AND it is only functional out of combat. Tankers do fix minor damage internally, put of fires etc. So that makes sense to me.
it wont affect gameplay too much. Internal tank repair is too slow to jump from one fire fight to the next without stopping, but it does mean you dont risk bailing or outrunnig an almost blown-up tank. You can sit in quietly somewhere and it fixes itself to stable from when almost at blow-up health - OR fix a minor hit without screaming for repairs over and over again.
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Well some people just like historical accuracy... (And roleplaying the great escape back to the friendly lines after being shot down 8))
historical, you mean tank driver exits the tank and whips out magic wrench, bangs a few times on the hull and restores an almost wrecked tank to perfect factory-fresh condition.
lol ::)
Alright we can make people return to base after every harder hit to be able to repair... Let's say if wrench can only fix half of the tank's health and to get fully healed you have to drive all the way back to the mainbase and wait for 10 minutes on the repair pad...
Sounds better? ::)
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it wont affect gameplay too much. Internal tank repair is too slow to jump from one fire fight to the next without stopping, but it does mean you dont risk bailing or outrunnig an almost blown-up tank. You can sit in quietly somewhere and it fixes itself to stable from when almost at blow-up health - OR fix a minor hit without screaming for repairs over and over again.
Your proposal still ignores an important point the "wrench solution" covers very well:
Auto repair still doesn´t really take a player out of the game. Sure, he´s taken some damage and he probably doesn´t move that much, untill the damage is repaired, so he´s not fully active, nor fully passive.
BUT:
The self-repair process is automatic and involves no action from the player. The crewman is still able to concentrate all of its senses on his surroundings and can immediately react to potential threats. There´s nothing at stakes since his weapon system are fully functional and the tank is fully mobile. From one second to another he can register and react to a threat.
If he has to bail out and has to manually repair his damaged vehicle this involves manual action from a player and means that he has to pay attention both to his damaged vehicle AND to his surroundings. If a threat appears he can´t react immediately which leaves him exposed and vulnerable.
This creates tension and excitement for crewmen. I´ve been a tanker in WaW for some time and nothing beats the excitement of being in the hurry to repair your damaged vehicle befoer you´re being discovered by enemies. Simply retreating and waiting a bit inside your vehicle can´t match that, ever.
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How bout a BF1942 style emplacement in main base in which you can repair tanks and vehicles?? And wrench only repairs mines, Smines and static emplacements.
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A tank will contain 5 people average.
The tanker kit adds to this fact. Someone is fixing the turret rotation, someone is putting out the fire. The rest of the team are still looking through slits and periscope.
I think it still represents real life. The tank is still vulnerable, it took damage and until its up and running it is weaker.
Why force the tanker to perform an action that in itself is not technically realistic, like thats the measure.
PS. LuckyOne,
thats what natty was driving at. Not that wrenches are stupid, but that they dont represent realism in themselves, so we cant judge internal repairs like some total aberration.
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I have no clue how we got dis suggestion turned over to tanker kit, but keep on discussing...
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Djinn, I´m no expert on WW2 tanker training, but common sense (and my limited knowledge about tanking I got from my uncle who was a Leopard commander in the Bundeswehr) tells me that if you´re tank got damaged by incoming fire, the crew won´t stay inside, with the engine running and ammo loaded into the gun, especially while theres a fire burning, as you strangely said.
Repairing a tank in the field is hard work and requires the strenght of the whole crew, so I personally find your arguments a bit flawed...
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A crew of 5 man can repair thing like tracks, damaged optics, some broken parts and such
but if a shell ripped your engine apart, or vital power supplies........you can forget it
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First of all our wrenches are a joke, takes waayy to long to repair any vehicle.
second of all a tanker kit with internal repair wouldnt be instantly ofcourse.. it could take some time, you'd just be able to drive in to safety, or prepare a new assault, shoot etc..
I dont care about the lulz, but the wrench in BFH works pretty sweet. It will repair your tank - but over time - and if you get damaged during the repair process, the repair process is terminated. It means you still need to 'retreat' in to cover and wait for the heal, but you dont need to do a silly bail and whip out some universal magic wand and stroke your tank gently for a minute. :p The heal also doesnt bring you to full health, it gives you for example 100 HP and if a full tank has 180 HP, you need to be clever when to use it. You dont want to waste it unless you are actually below 80 HP (in that case you'll waste heal points) but you also dont want to gamble and go down to critical damage.
To me, that is more "tactics" then just press W and blow up, or take one hit and have to drive 2 minutes away, bail, wrench and get shot while wrenching, or waste minutes of game play for no reason.
naah, this stuff is old and arbitratry, we'd do good with some redesign in this department.
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Just do it like in BF1942, problem solved!!!
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To me, that is more "tactics" "gamey" then just press W and blow up, or take one hit and have to drive 2 minutes away, bail, wrench and get shot while wrenching, or waste minutes of game play for no reason.
Fixed that for ya... And please don't even try to come up with those smartass "widgets" that ruined BFH >:(
The way I see it the current system is perfect. It kinda simulates tanks being out of action until they get repaired or you just charge in and hope the enemy will miss his shot. The only problem is that it sometimes causes "unfair" gameplay such as SL in tank with a full squad of engineers... But as most of the tanks are 1shotkilled by something usually available on the map it balances out.
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To me, that is more "tactics" "gamey" then just press W and blow up, or take one hit and have to drive 2 minutes away, bail, wrench and get shot while wrenching, or waste minutes of game play for no reason.
Fixed that for ya... And please don't even try to come up with those smartass "widgets" that ruined BFH >:(
The way I see it the current system is perfect. It kinda simulates tanks being out of action until they get repaired or you just charge in and hope the enemy will miss his shot. The only problem is that it sometimes causes "unfair" gameplay such as SL in tank with a full squad of engineers... But as most of the tanks are 1shotkilled by something usually available on the map it balances out.
And I ask myself again, is Natty actually playing the same game like we do? How is staying in a tank and auto repair/heal more tactical than looking for cover to repair the tank from the outdide, not being able to shoot and the need of a good situational awareness and self defense? You must be dreaming or haven't played your own game for a long time. The system you explained, helps those hardcore tank whores to camp even more on choke points and kill the fun for the other team. As mentioned before. The current system is perfect. BF1942 system would also be suitable. The question was more about how to avoid people driving in tanks or flying with limited kits, but ...
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And once again i shall repeat it
Do not attempt to fix
what issent broken
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I want to believe that Natty is just trolling, but I fear he's not :-X
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think outside the box once in a while, it's pleasant out here ;)
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Dont hate on Natty. Technically I suggested it. It just happened to get a dev's nod of approval.
How did we get here?
We were looking for a solution for having limited kits being used in tanks. I suggested NOT punishing or restricting them, but instead rewarding the use of the tanker kit so you see less limited kits in tanks.
And this is the reward section we are discussing - Tankers can do partial internal repairs, like medics can do in-vehicle healing. That way, people will see reason to use tanker kits to drive tanks rather than sniper kits for instance - or even SMGs and bazookas
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Exactly my point, well explained Djinn.
Players are extremely simple beings. If you have a guy looking at a choice in a game; for ex: Do I want a kit with wrench + pistol only, or a kit with wrench + rifle + explosives, there's simply no way he'll pick the pistol-only kit. There's also no way he'd choose away a weapon that is best for the type of enemy he is most likely to encounter (tanks)
but! if that one thing he plans on commiting to (drive a tank, fly a plane) becomes improved by this choice, he'd pick it. He rather slightly improve that one thing a bit, and choose away the possibility to do other tasks, bcause that one thing might help him win more in the acticity he is choosing. (for example the tanker kit giving him slightly faster reload in tank, more ammo, more armor or internal repair, he'd be happy just having a silly pistol)
Unless you really know how players think and behave, dont throw statements around ;)
Tanker/pilot kit which offers actual improved tanker/pilot experience; Yes.
Bad kit that players are supposed to pick to not pick kits that other players "can use better"; nope.avi since it has no actual game value.
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Unless you really know how players think and behave, dont throw statements around ;)
Thing is, I'm player and I know how I behave and I have sen a lot of other players behaviour. It's true that they rather take rifle than pistol (so do I) and some players rather take bazooka than rifle.
Tanker kit should have something to benefit from. Like ability to spot and/or give artillery spots maybe? Actually I don't care if you give stick or carrot to get people using tanker kit (or engineer), but something should be done and it should not be some bullshit like internal repairs.
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Would internal repairs even work? I know in BF2 that when an engineer, medic or support got into a vehicle then their power (repair, heal and resupply respectively) would affect anything within x metres. It did not, as I recall, affect the source vehicle. So if you wanted self repairing tanks, then you'd need two tanks each driven by an engineer to stay in close proximity.
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Natty, we as the guys who are playing the game more than you actualy, I think we are able to know how players behave. Thatswhy we don't throw around statements, we give suggestions. I see the point in rewarding a tanker kit or a medic kit or whatever, but not with the systems you explained. Do you know, how often Unique dies in an average match on Falais? Last time his score was like 47:1 in a tank ::)
This map is kinda extrem, because you have many chokepoints, but I would like to see a solution, where not only the tanker gets his benefits and these extreme players don't get feed even more. And I think the restrictions aren't too heavy. Everybody knows, that you can't take the NCO kit when not playing as SL. I personaly would prefer this kit over the recon kit but I simply know, that I can't take it. Why can't you see, that players who are actualy able to download this mod and install all three parts are able to learn game mechanics in a quiet fast way. It's a game mechanic like different ammo types. I like it, that FH2 has this depth of gameplay and a learning curve. This makes it unique compared to other 08/15 shooters.
If you add things like auto heal, this game will be much more predictable and get boring after some time.
And another point I don't get, is why pick up kits don't have a value in the game? May be I didn't get your point at this, but I see a lot of people using them. I would bet my money, that in every match on Villers a guy gets into the barn at crossroads and picks up the shreck to destoy allied tanks - and there we go.
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People! I suggested this. This once, stop bashing Natty!
I suggested internal tank repairs. If you can come up with some alternative to give reason for people using tanker kits rather than limited kits OR can find a more constructive means than restriction and sanctions for the use of said kits in tanks, please provide details.
But this conversation, especially that in single blocks of text, is really - really, not constructive.
Question - How do you limit the use of limited kits in tanks? Do you really have to? If so, provide system. If not, why not?
My suggestion was to add benefit to the tanker kit, so tankers use it over other kits, like the way they use pilot kits over other kits, and to have tanker kits right next to tanks...
What is your suggestion? keep it non-personal, PLEASE
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IMO it could be nice if a tanker kit is needed to drive a tank, but the tanker kit should not have benefits like automatic repair, just a knife, a pistol, binoculars, wrench and first aid. Why ? Because when someone play in a tank, he has a enormous advantage over other infantry men, and when he leave his tank, he's not disadvantaged against other infantry men. Imagine a King Tiger attacking a flag, kill 20-30 mens, and when he is near to death, he bail out of his tank with an STG44 and kill all the poor guys with bazookas and take the flag ! It's unfair.
And imagine a spawnable tanker kit, with pretty tankers uniforms... I dream may be ;D
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Hmm... brings to me a good idea.
Why not have a tanker kit as a secondary selectable kit alongside the Engineer kit. Most engineer kits, save for maybe, on Ramelle are unlimited anyway, so it wont matter that it is there, and it will definitely allow for more use.
Ofcourse having the kit on the ground next to the tank will also add usage.
But, Master_of_Pain_25,
The tanker kit already has just those things. No one is arguing that it needs more. We are trying to find a reason why someone in his right mind will go in for a limited tanker kit, when it doesnt provide any benefit over say, a sniper kit ro a bazooka.
The only thing I could come up with, slow, minor internal repairs.
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Djinn, I am not bashing against Natty. I can also see his point about not giving too much restrictions to the players, since these can also just piss the players. Thats a reason why I don't like PR that much. It is simply too strict for my personal taste. But I can't stand these arguments, that WE (the players) don't know how players behave or think, because we aren't game designers or whatever. I think everybody is able to make his own ideas about, how a game can work and what won't work. Alot of people in FH2 know how players behave and thatswhy they have an advantage caused by more experience.
I have another idea: What about giving only tankers with tanker kits the possibility to get repaired by engineers near the tank or something like this? Tankers without tank kit have to get out to repair their tank for themself. Still a bit restrictive but atleast you have the freedom to choose from these options. It doesn't force you to do anything but gives decent benefits for this tanker class. The lame tank whores in FH2 work this way so it would suit to the mechanics and also help the teamplay a bit. Some new player models with nice looking tanker uniforms would indeed be nice but ofcourse much work. Just some ideas ... ;)
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I say rifleman and tanker kits should be allowed to use tanks, since rifleman kits are unlimited.
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But Shitm4ker,
you already know that's Natty's persepctive. But it has little to do with the argument on the table now. This thread, like many others before can degenerate into a 'the forum vs. Natty' case, which I would hate for it to. Because it is a problem topic with what I think is a very doable solution if it can be found.
Yes,
ShadowNick1,
that's insightful. But HOW do we get players to select riflemen or other unlimited kits when using tanks rather than say, bazookas. The issue is how to gear people's free will. Because FACT, they WILL select ANYThiNG and everything and put it in tanks.
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so, what about making different "wrenches" for diffrenet purposes? The wrench of engineers we have now to repair statics guns etc and some equivalent of it to repair tanks and other armor only for a tanker kit? What I wish to see actually is a different system of repairing tanks as it is rather silly to repair a burning Tiger II with 5% of HP for example with a simple wrench to full 100%HP again.
It would be nice to have repair tool which should work only in small radius around the tank (as wrench now) but doesn't repair tank slowly health bar by health bar but give it an amount of health at once when the "repair time bar" is full (a rather small amount of health to represent field repairs which shouldn't make your tank out-of-factory-new). When something interrupt your work you don't get any health from it and need to start again from the beginning (it could be just a different wrench, crowbar, hammer or all of those appearing in repairing animation?)
(http://plastic-models-store.com/gallery/miniart/ma35011-2.jpg)
Also we could have some tool for sappers to disarming mines (which would only affect mines) and work same as that tanker thingy. A lot of work but maybe it's worth it (if even possible)? ;)
benefits:
+ usefull tanker kit with possibility of reapiring his tank
+ nothing to restrict players from taking a tank with any other kit
+ more ppl who will (or at least try to) disarm mines
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what is the problem you're trying to fix? :) because I cant see it.
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what is the problem you're trying to fix? :) because I cant see it.
the tanker kit which isn't usefull now but present in game? It is a problem obviously another thing is how high prority it has ;)
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what is the problem you're trying to fix? :) because I cant see it.
the tanker kit which isn't usefull now but present in game? It is a problem obviously another thing is how high prority it has ;)
Remove tanker kit from the one or two maps it's on.
Problem solved.
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Remove tanker kit from the one or two maps it's on.
Problem solved.
and we're back on topic
how to prevent ppl using limited kits in tanks without punishing them then? tell me, please because I thought that making 'working' tanker kit is here to solve the main problem of this thread
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why prevent them from using those kits in tanks?
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because it is a logistic waste to the battlefield.
most people will go for one of the following kits
1. Sniper kit
2. Rifleman with grenades
3. AT infantry
4. Engineer kit
In that order.
Now imagine no.1 and no.3 decided to drive a tank, and a good percentage of people want to drive tanks. Then that single sniper kit is NOT being used to snipe, but as a tank driver's kit, and the army cant select one more AT infantry kit because some n00b tanker is driving around with a zook, and probably shelling infantry rather than dealing with tanks.
So my suggestion: MAKE THE FRICKING TANKER KIT IMPORTANT!
Give me a solution to reduce how often people use those kits in tanks without restriction and sanction? Someone? Anyone?
Jan
I dont disagree with you. I feel you are going the right way. But I do think specific repair kits which dont work on other vehicles will frustrate more than make people care. Although I do see the need for repairing a tank being a slightly more important venture for a select few, however, it wont justify running around with only a pistol and binoculars.
And chances are tankers will never get to bail before they are one-shot killed, or decide not to risk bailing anyway to repair.
But as long as you are seeing then need to make the tanker kit worth using, you are doing better than most of the people in this discussion.
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why prevent them from using those kits in tanks?
Because some players are annoyed by other players taking bazookas, sniper rifles and other valuable assets and drive somewhere with them in a tank, dunno? Just posted in a thread as I am annoyed by such behavior too sometimes. You really should play FH more often to realize such things not only look at it from the theory. Oh, and btw, it's only a hypothetical solution (aka suggestion) to solve a minor problem (aka detail) and I thought that such details are what makes FH2 unique.
I'm tired of this stupid talk of "why" and "what is the problem" every time. Read the thread to find out what is the problem. We got community voice here which I support and I don't care if it will implement or not (that's why I posted it on public forum)
...But I do think specific repair kits which dont work on other vehicles will frustrate more than make people care.
it should be done in a way simple for players to understand to reduce frustration
it wont justify running around with only a pistol and binoculars.
And chances are tankers will never get to bail before they are one-shot killed, or decide not to risk bailing anyway to repair.
Tanker role is to drive a tank. If you decide to drive a tank, take a tanker kit to make it better for you and don't interrupt others fun by taking special assets and waste them. Average life length in FH2 is short enough to focus on one role. So why you need more than a pistol? Also, no matter which weapon you have as a tanker if you will bail for repairs in a wrong place you will be dead by one long range rifle shot in no time probably, so what is the problem? Also there is no rule to have only a pistol especially when we can see many photos of WW2 tankers with SMGs, so giving them one (with one magazine for defensive purposes) on maps where is this won't destroy the balance would only make them more awesome (not to mention german panzer officers hat or US tanker helmets)
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Unless you really know how players think and behave, dont throw statements around ;)
Following your own logic, it would make this place a one man forum ;)
2012: nothing has changed :)
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Then I guess the problem actually isn't that they drive tanks with AT kits, but that there is a lack of AT kits if they do. Simple solutions; less tanks, or more AT kits ;)
Less tanks: makes AT kits less needed, and also lowers the percentage chance that an AT kit carrier would use a tank
More AT kits; increases the chance for non tank-drivers to get an AT kit.
see what I mean? You need to realize the actual problem instead of adding a secondary, indirect problem on top of it.
And as Djinn explained as well, punishing players in to prefered behaviour is "bad design". Rewarding them for prefered behaviour is "good design"
Why is it good vs bad? Because the bad one reinforces negativity, creates a negative experience for the player, and the good reinforces positive experience. The bad one is a cheap "shortcut" while the good one is harder to design, requires more thought and planning, and needs to communicate on another level with players. (If you do this and this, you will get that and that, because of this and that... instead of "do this, die")
Just killing them when they leave the battlefield is a "bad" example. Ofcourse it would be way more interesting if the game could keep track of your "orders" (given by squadleader or commander) then reward you the closer you hit your target (give you scores, extra spawnpoints, new weapons etc) and cripple you (remove minimap, remove ammo, vehicles run out of fuel, disable VoIP, disable chat) if you stray too far away. In this case the easiest and most absolute solution was "death", and we accept it. It fixes both the problem with players spreading out in to nothingness, but also prevent them from circumventing the defenses and just circle around the enemy.
Killing someone for entering a vehicle without "proper" kit, only communicates laziness by design. "We were too bad at making the mod so you shall just die for not doing what we want" instead of rewarding you for using the designated kit. "here is more ammo, faster reload and a scope for using this kit"
basics, just plain basics.
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And then we have fucked up balances on maps where its vital to have the exact ratio between tanks and AT?
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we dont have any such exact ratios in the mod. AT kits are just placed here and there and limited to 0.1 or so to give a roughly 4-5 spawnable AT kits per team... no science or actual calculation has gone in to it, so if we removed or added a few here and there wouldnt make much difference.
also, this happens in both teams so the balance is self-regulating.
exact, is not a word in the FH2 vocabulary... pretty close is... Im sure removing AT kits would get us even closer (to perfection) on many maps. Especially normandy maps.
What is perfection I hear you ask... beats me.. "the perfect experience"... pretty subjective, and a completely different topic
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Oh I guess we tested nothingness then. Gotcha!
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You tested to get it close enough and that is what the benchmark is set at.
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I think adding more or less AT kits is actually cheap shortcut. As you say, nothing is exact in FH2. It might be that all tanker use AT kits or it might be that none is. So fiddling with kit number would just cause that there could be insane amount of AT kits in proper use or there could be way too few.
Using correct kit should indeed be rewarded somehow.
rewarding you for using the designated kit. "here is more ammo, faster reload and a scope for using this kit"
Yes why not. Trained crew could have faster reload for example, compared to wet footed rifleman hopping inside tank.
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Natty, you need to get into your head that there are players out there who accept limitations and dev-made rules, otherwise PR or DH would have a much, much smaller playerbase. These people accept that reality has limitations, so if they want to play a game that gives them an experience that´s pretty close to reality these "arbitrary rules" are necessary tools in order to create it, since realitiy itself is full of limitations or "arbitrary rules".
They accept that it takes a while to fire a rocket launcher, they accept that there are specialists out there who were trained to use certain hardware and that not every grunt can hop into a tank and drive it around.
These sorts of players don´t care about your so-called "positive reinforcement" like moar Dakka!!11 or other perks, since they´d see it as "unrealistic" and for the sake of a certain experience they see what, you think is actually negative reinforcement, as something positive, that creates an athmosphere they´re looking for, which is a semi-realistic (and thus limited) environment.
Not everyone enjoys what you seem to think is fun. Thinking outside the box would be quite nice for you, since your head seems to be stuffed with those "LOLfrag"-ideas most big publishers seem to promote nowadays.
FH2 already includes a good number of those nasty, nasty and bad design flaws, like the inability to fire certain machine guns on the move, bleeding from wounds and patching those up, planes can´t be exited if they´re too fast, the SL kit etc.
The FH2 community is mostly looking for a certain experience, and that is to "be in WW2 combat". Many people here already favour a more "realistic" approach, so IMHO limiting tanks to tanker kits wouldn´t be such a big shock to most people, since they´re already used to having such limitations.
Instead I believe that this would add more to the overall experience, especially for people who love to use tanks. People who want to tank would have to accept the "negative" side effect of having a tank kit, but have the advantage and privilege of using tanks.
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I think he actually has a point.
Perhaps if you CANT enter a tank with limited kit - Not that you die, but you simply cant enter, it would work.
But the engine needs to kill you off instead, then it would be non-FH2.
So its either you CANT enter with limited kits, OR
We beef up the tanker kit.
I'm inclined towards the latter.
Exhibit A
Your team has been pushed back to your final Canadian base on Falaise Pocket. The rest of the team is trying to cap various flags. A panther is standing outside spraying and shelling everything. You have no support and your flag is falling. But you spawned with a limited kit and the Sherman just spawned.
But you CANNOT enter it to stop the Panther capping, or die if you try, OR couldnt see if you did...
I dont think that should happen.
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homer jay, apparently (or we wouldn't have this thread ;)) players do not, actually, care about "rules" or realism. They take whatever kit they can, and use whatever vehicles they feel like.
For the record: when I say "players" I look at the playergroup as one big group - one entity - I don't talk about individuals. I know there are players who "behave" realistically just for their own pleasure of doing so, but the overall flow of behaviour (the thousands of rounds being played on all combined servers) is my concern.
For the overall experience, we dont need these forced rules here and there. The overall player dont think about what "training" his avatar could have had if he was a real person and this was a real war.
Nope indeed.
Also, players that visit forums, do so because they have a certain opinion to express. This is a minority of players, and their opinion on the forum, seldom reflects their actual ingame behaviour.
It's easy to go to a forum and line up a bunch of "should haves, and could haves" for games. But when push comes to shove, their principles wash away and they're just like all the other players, trying to find the best way to kill the enemy. You've all driven both tanks and planes with At kits, mortars or Heavy machine guns, don't pretend you haven't.
To say that players don't care about positive reinforcement is also proof of poor understanding of player psychology. Awards and stats is just one example, people love that stuff. Whatever we throw at players to reinforce their positive experience, they like. When we punish them or remove things from them, they get annoyed. Trust me on this, it's how it works.
One really bad thing we do for example, is removing assets from a team that progress. I'm really thinking about removing this, but it can sometime work as a balance equalizer. IE, this is when the attackers lose tanks or planes for capping flags. It makes sense to have some upper hand for an attack, and then lose it to avoid a snowball balance effect, but many players hate this, and dont understand it. They stand at the spot where the tank used to spawn and scream in the chat "why does this tank never spawn??!"...
we fail at communicating this, and the player is just wasting time waiting for the tank. There is absolutely no way to tell what tanks/planes in FH2 are normal, and which are linked to 'reinforcement' flags.
if we built a system to explain this (for example every time there is a reinforcement tank, it spawns on a road, and all normal tanks spawn inside tank nets) then players would learn over time - "aah, 2 extra tanks in mainbase, these are so we can break the first defenses, we will not keep them once we have broken through"
Im not saying players would not understand why they cant enter a tank with Mortarkit, bazooka or Lafette kit, but they can with rifle, "tanker kit" and engineer, Im just saying this isn't a problem right now. We can fix a hundred more important things first.
- "tanker kit" I use citation marks, as it isnt a tanker kit at all, it's a pistol kit with wrench, nothing else. The standard rifleman kit or the bazooka kit is just as much a "tanker kit", simply because they both use the tank just as fine. The "pilot kit" is not a pilot kit either, it's a chute kit. Nothing else. You dont become a better pilot using it, you become a better bailer.
That is what players really care about. What they can use and how things work, not how they "should" work if this was "reality"
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Also, players that visit forums, do so because they have a certain opinion to express. This is a minority of players, and their opinion on the forum, seldom reflects their actual ingame behaviour.
Oh for fucks sake. Again you throw this "you people are minority and wrong because you are at forums". What kind of logic is that? I know plenty of people that have pretty much same opinion as me and I don't think they have ever visited this forum or they just lurk here, never posting anything (Hello meloonimies).
- "tanker kit" I use citation marks, as it isnt a tanker kit at all, it's a pistol kit with wrench, nothing else. The standard rifleman kit or the bazooka kit is just as much a "tanker kit", simply because they both use the tank just as fine.
Actually bazooka kit or even rifleman kit is much less tanker kit than any kit with wrench. Without wrench, people either bail their tank when it get's damaged or fall back and spam "I need a grease monkey!" until someone friendly player comes and repairs hes tank. Engineer had advantage over other kit's that he actually can repair himself. I honestly have no idea why would anyone take something else.
later he got killed by rifle, before ever doing anythin
Oh, and little story from hslan yesterday. We had guy in tank with sniper kit. From time to time he left his tank and stood ON his turret watcing his surounding trough scope. I think later he got killed by rifle, before ever doing anything with that tank. Way to go Charlie! ;)
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After the many years I am now playing FH2 I NEVER EVER had a problem with the amount of AT kits available. Every time I needed to spawn with Piat, Bazooka or Panzerfaust I could.
And seriously. If someone uses the Sniper Kit in a tank "Who cares?" Its just ONE kit! You don't win the map because ONE player used that kit in a "supposed" wrong way.
There really is no need to restrict the way people drive and/or change the numbers of AT kits.
Then again I wonder "What map has the Tank kit?" I know that Alam Halfa has one. Thats it. There is no other map I know if is there? IIRC there is no Tanker Kit on any of the Normandy maps. So why bother with it?
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good for you, sir!
It's not about restricting anymore as that idea failed at the beggining of this thread but giving benefits to a tanker kit to make ppl choose it. And yes, it is only on Alam Halfa now, but making such thing more usefull could lead us to create pick up tanker kits near tank spawns to add immersion and fun to the mod. And yes, it is a minor thing but some still bother as we can see, that's all.
welcome to the PUBLIC forums ;)
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And one very important thing, that Natty misses is the fact, that the majority of players in FH2 are quiet expereinced die hard players and not those random dudes. We have 2 full servers almost every evening and I can tell you that I know the most players after this time now, since 2.4 was released - most people are players who played before 2.4 ;). I think to solve things like wasting assets can attrect more players, because you don't get this coma like situations, when you simply have no chance to do anything. This is a point, why people get annoyed on Brest when they get spawned killed by the mortar for the x'th time (damn remove these weapons on Brest ;D). Same goes for these critical maps, where every AT weapon is needed. And then to have a guy wasting assets FORCES the whole team more than this random dude and RESTRICTS their possibilties even more. I am not for a second PR but SOME rules that are easy to learn can help alot. Just block the option to enter a vehicle with limited kits, as you can lock vehicles to specific teams, dk whether it's possible this way. Maybe give little information like you give with the NCO kit and thats it. This dude not able to drive the tank won't rage quit. He will look for a soliution to get into the fight on a different way as players do, when they can't get a tank in mainbase. They are forced to do this by a certain rule - the limitation of vehicles on the maps. Adding perks and all this stuff will simply destroy FH2. It should offer the good old BF expereince like BF1942 did or FH0.7, and thatswhy people like me keep playing it and because it's the best WWII shooter out there. Don't tell me that we play it because of awards or medals. For some it's nice fancy stuff but for the majority the overall experience and these epic moments count more. A close won match against an awesome team feels more rewarding than a medal created in photoshop. Trust me, I am the player and I know how I think or behave ;)
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I agree with you but the aim is to attract also those random guys and make them stay and play FH2 after next release.
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I agree with you but the aim is to attract also those random guys and make them stay and play FH2 after next release.
I didn't say anything against this. But take a look at the servers. Majority are long time players and this mod fails to attract new players and keep them playing for a long time with it's current state. Then a guy brings up a good suggestion about a critical problem and we (the die hard fans, who keep the servers alive anyway) are told, that we don't know sh*t by a guy who doesn't even seem to play the same game.
My theory for the problem with the dropping player count is the fact, that this mod is damn difficult to play for beginners against all these hard core whoring cracks. Thatswhy it's hard to increase the playerbase and some people just get bored. This new feature could make teamplay better and the overall experince for ALL players on the server, not just this random dude who plays it one or two times. Avoiding this situations for new players, when they simply don't have a chance, could be solved with such a feature and the expereinced players would also be pleased.
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If I was a new player to this mod, and I walked up to a tank and couldnt enter it, and nothing that told me why not, or what I have to do to be able to do so, I'd exit the mod and go play a real game.
Same thing that happened when I tried Project Reality. Bunch of stuff are just boring or weird, so I lost interest. Not like I would go to some mod site and read a manual how to operate a tank or drive a truck :-\
I expect very few newcomers to FH2 to do that either, that's why we let anyone drive a tank. You cant drive the opposing teams tank, true, but that hasn't been an issue. If we did the kit thing from day1 maybe it would have worked, now it feels just totally arbitrary to add it. This, I know you agree with :)
Like that guy said^ AT kits arent a problem. they're everywhere.. and we all know this isnt about AT kits missing when people drive tanks with them, don't we? :) this is about how certain players think other players behave "unrealistically".
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Natty is right! LETS ALL GO BATTLEFIELD 3 CAUSE ITS A REAL GAME!
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Natty, that´s the so-called "ASA framework", an idea that comes from organizational behaviour studies.
It stands for "attraction, selection, attrition" and explains how organizations often have "same minded" members, who share common goals.
Now, I know, games aren´t organizations, but the idea can be used in that situation, nonetheless.
Maybe the PR devs don´t want people to play their mod who just want to jump onto a server, frag some guys and get a shiny new medal for it?
As I said earlier, those "realism games" attract a certain "breed" of gamers. Those who want to make a certain experience, one that feels as close to "reality" as possible.
Because of that these players have no problems with what you see as "arbitrary" rules because they know that real life is full of such limitations and rules. And therefore they´re okay with not being able to crew tanks as riflemen etc.
Also, keep in mind that PR has extensive manuals and even gives a player feedback on why he can´t crew a tank without a certain kit. This is the selection process.
If you´re unable to read through the manual and seem to ignore in-game warnings ("You need the crewman kit to command this vehicle", in yellow letters on your HUD), this game might really not be your cup of tea.
In the end, attrition "weeds" those out who try to play the game nonetheless, but lose interest, later on. This leads to a rather homogeneous player base: the "realism" crowd.
This process is actually quite easy, but works for many things. There´s a reason we´ve got people playing all sorts of different games, because tastes differ.
I know, you´re universal idea of "fun" is something like "quick action, lots of shiny medals and perks to keep players busy" and it seems to be widely accepted that with that sort of gameplay you can attract most players (and commercial games seem to make the most profit like that).
But again, keep in mind that there are "niche" gamers who prefer rather unusual (=not standard) games and your "universal fun"-scheme can´t be fully applied to them.
To get back to your "new guy is frustrated because he can´t use a tank as rifleman"-theory:
To be fairly honest, if a new player can´t be bothered to read a manual, watch those brilliantly done training videos or read and understand a simple message that tells him why he can´t do that, he might not be the audience, FH2 is looking for.
FH2 already differs so much from your "standard fun games", by trying to simulate real-life aspects, I can´t see why adding a few others would be soo, soo bad.
As I said earlier, many gameplay mechanics restrict players already quite heavily, adding a few others, that would actually make sense and add more to the "realistic WW2"-feeling FH2 is trying to emulate won´t hurt.
Why?
Because FH2 already has an "unusual gamer breed" as playerbase. Most people here have a certain demand (historical accuracy, mainly) and if FH2 would move further away from the playerbase and turn into what you see as "fun" shooter, that could not end well.
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Since when is it healthy to "breed" your audience in to a homogenous
sect group of people who think exactly the same? I rather have free thinkers, creative people and fun, positive people who brings some dynamics to the game.
Only in places like the military do you want to breed people in to mindless drones who cant think for themselves, and let me remind you being a player of a BF2 mod is not being in the military.
And it's actually way more simple to force people to use certain kits or so, than to just let anyone do what they want (within reason), it forces you to take more things in to consideration while designing, instead of just hand them a manual and say "do this, or get banned"
I dont care if you think my idea of fun is "quick action, lots of shiny medals and perks to keep players busy", Im sure you're trolling when you say that.. also Im a bit sad, I expected you to be able to come up with a wittyer example of what I think "fun" is. Now you went for the cheap shot, and you missed.
No, that is not my definition of fun ;)
"if a new player can´t be bothered to..." etc... I look at it this way: - If designers cant be bothered to develop a system that encourages or promotes a behaviour they're looking for, then perhaps that game isn't really worth the time invested by the player. That said (again) we dont have a problem. Players behave as we want, and in my years in this mod, I dont think I ever heard a dev or even a tester taking about enforcing certain kits to drive certain vehicles. You are making this up just to fill the forum with something. Actually, it did come up about a year ago in a discussion I was managing, but pretty much all the devs were against it. Not worth the time investment, and wouldnt guarantee better experience, was the verdict.
We have a very high roof up until this mod becomes "stupid" or "arcade" or however you prefer to call it. We're nearly empty of players, anything we can do to make it more accessible for players and reach out to those who might be just slightly interested in ww2 shooters, or those who cant keep up with the current-gen games, or those simply want to see new things, Im all for. I mean what would you prefer, play on one server with the same 30-40 people every day, or see new people come in and like what they see, and stay, tell their friends etc? Do they all need to first walk through the jury of 'are you hardcore enough' to be accepted in to this little community? I dont think so, I think we should let everyone enjoy this cool mod, because it is, cool, fun, pretty, exciting, epic, you name it. Just needs to take its head out its arse once and a while and acknowledge when things dont work. Im here to do just that, Im the head-out-of-arse puller, and I can pull hard.
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Im here to do just that, Im the head-out-of-arse puller, and I can pull hard.
Must be hard with your own head down there.
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Natty, I´m not sure if I didn´t explain the "ASA framework" correctly or you fail to understand it, but it definately does not mean an active "breeding", where players are turned into something they´re not.
It simply means that "if people like something, they stay; if not, they leave".
It´s a theory that tries to explain why people with common interests or goals work or come together, nothing else.
I hope you understood that now...
Btw, during my service in the German Army I haven´t experienced anyone trying to turn others into "mindless drones who cant think for themselves". I´m not sure if you´re just trolling there or if you had some very bad personal experiences...
Anyway, I don´t really know what you´re definition of fun is, that´s right, but then we´re not best friends who share their innermost secrets with each other. I only read snippets of your posts and interprete them.
This whole discussion has become pointless, now anyway, since you just said that the majority of devs have decided that this isn´t a real problem and it would take too much effort to find a solution.
If someone, anyone who was involved in that discussion would have just said that, we wouldn´t waste our time, trying to find solutions for a problem that doesn´t exist in the devs eyes.
If the players are happy with that "solution" is another question, though and the future will tell if the course FH2 has taken was the right one.
Im here to do just that, Im the head-out-of-arse puller, and I can pull hard.
Is that your definition of fun? Yikes... ::)
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FH2: Accessible, easy to do everything, tons of action and really fun to play
PR: not easily accessible by pubbie players, hard to achieve anything unless you try hard,requires hours to play and master its ways, boring gameplay at many occasions
Now compare player count on an average evening
Yeah.....I think your logic is flawed Natty. Seems to me that players actually prefer restrictions that define who is better and who is not by the quality of their training and reckoning and not by ping.
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sure homer, it's a nice wording, the "ASA" stuff, we apply it in FH2 as well. And you know what happens? Too many people leave than what we're happy with.
Since 2.4 release we've had over 13,000 people downloading and played FH2. How many of them are now playing?... you know the numbers. It means a churn rate of over 90%, easily.. maybe 95% even.
Why do they leave?
I promise you that PR has the same amount of churners. Maybe they cant track how many players actually play their mod, but Im willing to be they lose 90% off all people who download and installs it, tries it and just cant be bothered.
Both mods make huge mistakes, they cater to an already very very small group of players (People with BF2) and to cut off 90% of them immediately.. I fail to see the reason. To maintain an ultra-hardcore little click of 120 people "who gets it"?. naah, waste of time if you ask me.
PR could be so nice if they also just, did some head-pulling. I mean it's such a simple mod. big battlefield 2 with improved animations, sounds etc.. teamplay focus and all that. Yet, the boredom churns players that are actively seeking that type of game play!
Just like FH2 churns many players with bad map design, or way too many deaths all the time. Players simply dont install a mod to view the spawn menu all the time, they want to be part of the action, not a victim of it.
Shooter games are so very simple if you look at it not drousy from immersion or meta-values. The only thing you do is to use the geometry and mechanics to outmaneuver the enemy and "tag" him before he "tags" you. This basic thing - just like driving in a racing game - is the fundamental. Unless that works, and provides fun for the player, he won't enoy the game, even if the rest of it is awesome, be it epic large landscapes, nice sounds, pretty french houses or photorealistic textures.
Immersion doesnt come from pretending, or graphics, or sounds, or "teamplay" or "realism"..it comes from being in control of the game.
Sure the hardcore PR click who has spent thousands of hours mastering every little thing in the game, they feel in control. Just like a surgeon is control of the equipment he uses to saw little veins and bloodvessels together in a microscope, and sure FH2 players with +1000 counts will feel in control in the split-second round-the-corner crouch-1s1k engagements in FH2, but we dont worry about those, do we? They are already here to stay (they proved with those hours of playtime) but what about the new guys?
Dont we want them to stay? Or must they first pass through the initiation-rite fire to prove their manhood?
- Invest 500 hours of boredom, annoyances and frustration, and you too can have fun!
To me, that is cowardly from a dev perspective. Why not meet the challenge to design an experience that is "easy to learn, hard to master"? Why not be able to provide fun for the newcomers, as well as "depth" for the veterans? How come I have installed PR 4 times and played it, but given up after 2 hours of just being bored?... That is strange to me, being a huge Op.Flashpoint fan, loving slow and building action, liking long distance engagements etc... Is it because I dont "get it"?... No, really.. I do get it. I just dont like it, because I see past all the arbitrary rules and restrictions and what the devs really want me to do.
If I was encouraged to use a certain kit, or encouraged to join a squad, or behave in the prefered way, then I could swich on my "ok I accept the game rules" brain and do it. But when you get killed or kicked for not doing it. It's bye bye Mod.
Many people say bye bye FH2 as well, Im sure you have your theories to why that is, Id like to hear it.
Why did 13,000 people download and install this BF2 mod, but only a couple of hundred remained to this day? Is it because we are too "arcadey" and dont follow "history"? Or could there be something else....
Have a nice day! :)
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oh god, its like EA took the body of a human been and started posting on a forum :-X :-\
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Curiously enough, whenever someone suggests rewarding players for doing something, a wild dev appears and states that people should (EDIT: should not) be punished, and since rewarding someone leaves another without the reward, it's the same thing as punishment and thus a big no-no.
Now, I don't endorse "autokick-then-ban-if-you-don't-join-squads" or "wrong kit, you die", neither "derp, i can haz stabilizer, coax, nightvision and special ammo but you can't because i grind moar than you".
But offering concrete benefits (besides mobile spawnpoint) eg. for joining a squad - I remember when all my suggestions regarding this were shot down, but still would like to see some of those. As for other benefits.... Faster reload times with a tanker or engineer kit (or, slower without)? Yes please. "Tanker" kit repairs vehicles faster than "engineer", which repairs fixed guns faster in turn. You could still drive tanks with any kit, could fight with them also, but would be rewarded for the correct kit. Could go even as far as to introduce different movement speeds - with an AT, MG or engineer kit you would run slower (or tire faster) than with assault or recon kit. You could still pick up a different kit from the field (unlike in PR) and would gain the abilities of the new class instantly.
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exactly Kelmola, see how easy it is :) "offering concrete benefits" I like that.. offering, not forcing.
Game telling you "hey, you can use this fun thing over here, but if you use it like this it will be even more fun!"
@Sicario... zzzzzzzz really?... was that the best you could do? "EA has taken human form"... you should be able to troll better than that, you've had enough training.
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I think it's time to lock these 7 pages of never-ending "Natty vs People" case. The discussion slipped to accusing half of the forum of trolling, out of context citations and theories about some imaginary spherical gamer in a vacuum, all made by one man.
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What parts did you have problems understanding? I can explain a bit simplyfied if you like.
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Now this has come to the future of forgotten hope, the question: What is Forgotten Hope 2 and what it would become? A game that tries to "bring awesome experience" to players that lines with the mainstream games. Or a game that tries to integrate historically accurate WWII atmosphere in a shooter?
This might not sounded like two contradicting ideas, a game could be both mainstream and with historically accurate WWII elements in it. Let's say, you could have a Tiger that beats a Sherman easily in a Normandy Battle, and that is what is called "historically accurate".
But people, WWII atmosphere is something much more subtle than historical accuracy.
Let's look at the self-repair issue. Yes, tanks do field repairs. As long as a tank could be repaired, it fits historical accuracy. You might argue that "yes make the tank vulnerable while self-repairing and viola". But how much WWII atmosphere is there is completely different thing. What would you think if you see a KT parked next to some bush, concealing itself, under the auto-repair system? First is that, you'll be confused - this tank is trying to lie in ambush 5 km from the frontlines, the driver is such a dumb-shit idiot wasting the KT. While it would be immediately clear if you see a guy next to the tank busy repairing the tank with his wrench. As that is what you'll see in the movies, what you'll expect from a WWII time-frame game.
WWII technology doesn't include the ability to fix a tank from the inside. Yes, you could include it for "streamline" purpose. But think of what direction it heads the mod to.
I am pretty busy now so that is all I could type. I am not a dev, and no matter what ideas I got, I could just post them here and let you guys discuss. Look at my suggestion in page 1, I think that is what everyone would love.
Natty is someone with a game-design talent. But my very personal opinion is that he is not suitable for forgotten hope, well, at least, in my own taste.
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Hmm let's see pilots use the pilot kit cause the parachute could potentialy save their life (or they use it for cheap backcapping but that's a different story). One thing that could work is to make people with limited kits unable (or simply slower) to bail their tanks (representing the trained tank crew as opposed to random grunts).
This could be seen as punishing the regular players... so if you don' t want to do this you have to give them some other reward, (such as more points, teamwork points etc.). Although Natty's ideas are quite good (and somewhat arcade sometimes) I feel they don't really fit this mod which tries to keep things reasonably realistic while not enforcing unnecessary rules and mechanics on the player.
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Never seen a movie where one guy hops out and repairs a tank with a simple wrench.
Have however seen movies where the crew exits the tanks and repairs it while the shooter remains inside and keeps firing, holding off the enemies as his mates repair him (or puts out fire etc), this is what internal repair would simulate. (The invisible crew is the same invisible crew you always have, that reloads ammo for you, keeps you with endless fuel, operates your radio, drives, fires, Coax etc.)
WWII technology also didnt include GPS tracking system (minimap), soldiers summoned by magic powers, (SL spawn) Soldiers communicating via a text bases chat central (all chat) and hundreds more example, like magic wrench that repairs any vehicle by holding it up like Harry Potter's wand.
So that's it, internal repair would not be less "realistic", the only relevant question here is 'would it make the mod more fun or not?', Im not sure it would, TBH I think magic wrench works fine, just think it feels old and outdated mechanic, and it forces me to stop doing the thing I signed up to do at the mainbase; drive the tank.
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Natty, let's not forget that (most) tanks are multi-crewable, thus you already CAN stay in your tank and keep fending off the enemy IF you have a dedicated hull gunner/top MG gunner/inf on your tank (or you are SL which allows you to spawn your squadmates) who happen to have a wrench. The solution to this problem, instead of adding some (magic) auto repairs (which can't be easilly stopped by the enemy) could be to provide more of your squad/teammates a place to sit on/in your tank.
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Yea, if you are dead and there is a friendly tank that has used the "request repair" command, you should see a wrench icon on him on the minimap... you dont do that currently, or? Can't remember...
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Yea, if you are dead and there is a friendly tank that has used the "request repair" command, you should see a wrench icon on him on the minimap... you dont do that currently, or? Can't remember...
Hmm I don't think you do... Was it taken out along with the "Medic!" icon that used to be in BF2?
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So tankers could actually fix broken tracks from inside the tank in the movies? Please enlighten me on this!
I'd imagine some certain damages could be fixed from inside, but certainly most "HP decreasing" damages are things that have to be fixed from outside (and maybe a guy or two inside).
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we dont have broken tracks in FH2... Our tanks are made out of one, solid piece of plastic. Shoot anywhere on it, and its "hitpoints" are reduced. When it reaches zero, it is morphed in to a black piece of plastic.
the wrench can repair any damage caused on the plastic, just stroke it gently with the wrench on the tip of the barrel and you repair the engine, or hold it up infront of the rear parts to repair the front part. It's magic, so if would switch this to having the driver sit inside and will his tank back to factory-fresh state instead, would be exactly the same. Only difference being, he could do something in the meantime.
But honestly, I like wrenches. Ever since I bailed out of a panzer on battleaxe 1942 the first time to wand away the smoke and quickly get back in, I have liked this moment. It's exciting and stressing to feel vulnurable outside the tank.