Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Off-Topic => Off-Topic => Topic started by: THeTA0123 on 27-03-2010, 18:03:33
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During the night of March 26 2010, an explosion ocurred at the rear of the ROKS Cheonan (PCC-772), resulting in the dissaperance of 46 of the 104 strong crew. The ship started to sink at around 21.30 local time (12.30 UTC) and by midnight the ship had sank. 58 of the crew including the Captain had been rescued. Eight ships from the ROK Navy and ROK Coastguard assisted in the rescue of the crew. It was speculated that the explosion was caused by a torpedo, and on March 27 it was reported that ROK Naval ships engaged a ship heading towards North Korea. A Defence Official later said this may have been misidentified as a flock of birds on radar. The estimated survival time in the waters was put at around two hours, suggesting that the chances of finding the missing 46 crew members were fading fast. The ROK Navy plans to salvage the ship.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/03/27/south.korea.ship.sinking/index.html?hpt=T2
I really hope that this was an accident....
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Oh God those are some of the stupidest comments Ive ever seen in my life. Im not sure, but they may actually be as stupid as Youtube comments. >_<
Well this is a tragic occurrence no matter what the cause. M prayers go out to the sailors still caught in the ship or in the cold waters where the ship went down.
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What the hell!
North Korea is gonna get its ass served on a plate (fried!) if the South Koreans find something suspicious
RIP to the dead sailors
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Is this the prelude to WW3?
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I highly doubt it.
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Nah, the Korean War IS technically still going on anyways.
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Nah, the Korean War IS technically still going on anyways.
Yeah, but it's not really considered as such. It was a torpedo, and you all know it. North Korea wants to be unified!
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Kim forgot a seamine.
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This may prove to be an interesting few days during the investigation, I wouldn't think some random explosion would happen so close to the korea's with a highly trained crew on board
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that^
And the fact that the ship was well maintained. Unlike what those people say in the comment's
If an internal explosion happend, it had to be froma ammo, and if it did, the entire ship would lit skyhigh, not just a small hole
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the past few months the south and north korean navy had some trouble in the yellow sea , I guess it is just one more incendet ....
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From the Article
In recent months, North Korea has been firing coastal artillery into the waters near the island, and shells had been fired earlier Friday, according to news reports.
Could be a subtle way of easing into war but with the usual stuff North Korea claims, it may end up being "They were too close to us" or "we didn't like the look of how they were patrolling" etc.
Also note that N.K. has been test firing ICBMs as of late
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Is this the prelude to WW3?
No unlikely.
If North korea and South korea would go in a war today, nobody would jump towards the help of North Korea.
Plus, South korea is wel capable of fending off North korea. South korea has modern tanks and a modern airforce.
North korea has maybe 3300 tanks, but S korea has 1500 modern one's up to date, with 900 brand new tanks incoming ( K1A1 and currently the most modern tank of the world= K2 Black panther)
If both would clash again, it would result probaly in an artillery duel maybe. In wich wich artillery can kill wich faster will be the key factor. South korean artillery is more mobile, but North korean has more and more powerfull artillery
Then again, south korea has the US on their side.
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But there´s a big number of US forces in SK, aren´t they?
I guess some countries wouldn´t find it cool to see an American-backed ROKA batteling with NK.
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But there´s a big number of US forces in SK, aren´t they?
I guess some countries wouldn´t find it cool to see an American-backed ROKA batteling with NK.
Yeah, U.S. keeps quite a few troops in SK, and also Japan for that matter.
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My personal opinion says it is an accident (technical malfunction that was noticed to late), a suicidal crew member that wanted to go with a blast or some sea mine everyone forgot about that came loose and started drifting just below the surface. Dont know wich one is more likely, i very much doubt it was an attack by the north
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I doubt that you would be able to find any country willing to fight with N. Korea.
From what I hear, invasion routes between North and south are constricted along a few narrow valleys. And yes, some of N. Korea's tanks are T-34s, iirc, and we could do a shitload of damage simply by ending the food aid. The biggest threat is N korean bombardment of the South Korean capitol; I don't think that N korean artillery is too much of a threat to Skorea's military, as the North fires from already constructed positions which would be sitting ducks for a force with GPS and fire computers on their artillery (not sure if the Sout or US Forces Korea have guided artillery) and who also have abundant aerial reconnaissance. Besides, S Korea has a crapload of strike fighters on their own already; 50 Strike Eagles if I recall correctly, and N korea has no good air defence network.
But this will probably not result in war anyway; Just another one of those minor provocations that the north excels at and which are too minor to make anybody care.
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I higly doubt there is any chance of a Third World War for a long while, but the fact that we are all military history buffs (some of us) makes you fools excitedly jump to such a conclusion.
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Agree with CPS.
Next big war will perhaps be between China and India, two nations both with huge growth and both aiming for that status as a superpower.
Plus, they are neighbours!
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I'ma cheer for India.
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Today my friend was saying: USA is on verge of collapse and china is gonna rule the world in 30 years (something like that).
I really had a laugh listening to that. I didn't have the strenght for political argument.
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Today my friend was saying: USA is on verge of collapse and china is gonna rule the world in 30 years (something like that).
I really had a laugh listening to that. I didn't have the strenght for political argument.
I don't really see that being that wrong and I am from the USA. The USA has been going down the toilet for decades. We really can't afford to be the world police for much longer. China on the other hand has been an ever growing monster over the last decade with no sign of letting up. It would not surprise me to see the EU and the Chinese locking horns when I am am old and grey(er).
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Today my friend was saying: USA is on verge of collapse and china is gonna rule the world in 30 years (something like that).
I really had a laugh listening to that. I didn't have the strenght for political argument.
I don't really see that being that wrong and I am from the USA. The USA has been going down the toilet for decades. We really can't afford to be the world police for much longer. China on the other hand has been an ever growing monster over the last decade with no sign of letting up. It would not surprise me to see the EU and the Chinese locking horns when I am am old and grey(er).
It might not even take that long. ;)
China and India wouldn't be much of a fight... China is much wealthier and stronger than India, with a better equipted and generally larger size military with more personell then India. Altough I would support India, China is becomming too much of a push-over.
World War 3 might not be too far off, the NWO uprising will most definetly spark it... but we can't allow for it to happen, for the sake of humanity..WW3 would spell D.O.O.M for the world.
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Fallout 3 anybody? As mentioned before in the forums, we meet at Lainer's house and bribe him with
quality liquor to let us in.
China taking over the United States would be pretty bad for the majority of the world, britain in particular but I digress.
OT: I honestly can't wait to see what the investigation brings up
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If the PRC has a large war with anyone it would hurt the U.S. They are a huge trading partner. Chinese India war would be interesting, but as of now, China would win, they've had more time to develop, and are booming right now.
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Did somebody actually suggest that the PRC would go to war with the U.S.? India I could maybe see (still doubt it) but the Chinese would never go to war with America, what the heck would they gain from that?
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Did somebody actually suggest that the PRC would go to war with the U.S.? India I could maybe see (still doubt it) but the Chinese would never go to war with America, what the heck would they gain from that?
I don't think anyone said that....But India vs. the PRC wouldn't happen most likely either. I just don't have much faith in India winning.
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Well they lost the Sino-Indian War thingy, I believe, so yeah, China would probably win. I also do not think it would come to that, though.
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Well they lost the Sino-Indian War thingy, I believe, so yeah, China would probably win. I also do not think it would come to that, though.
I don't think so either. Sino-Indian war isn't the best tell, but everything does point to a Chinese victory.
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The Indian Army is rather well prepared though, innit? All those years facing Pakistan, and in Kashmir, they must have a pretty solid fighting force.
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The Indian Army is rather well prepared though, innit? All those years facing Pakistan, and in Kashmir, they must have a pretty solid fighting force.
True, but I'm not an expert on their comparative technology levels, or how good their respective Navies/Airforces are. Except I know the Chinese Navy is pretty weak, but their Airforce is pretty big, one of the biggest iirc.
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I doubt that you would be able to find any country willing to fight with N. Korea.
From what I hear, invasion routes between North and south are constricted along a few narrow valleys. And yes, some of N. Korea's tanks are T-34s, iirc, and we could do a shitload of damage simply by ending the food aid. The biggest threat is N korean bombardment of the South Korean capitol; I don't think that N korean artillery is too much of a threat to Skorea's military, as the North fires from already constructed positions which would be sitting ducks for a force with GPS and fire computers on their artillery (not sure if the Sout or US Forces Korea have guided artillery) and who also have abundant aerial reconnaissance. Besides, S Korea has a crapload of strike fighters on their own already; 50 Strike Eagles if I recall correctly, and N korea has no good air defence network.
North korea doesnt use T-34's anymore. Their main tanks are T-55,T-62 and Chonm"as
North korea uses primarly self-propelled artillery, of wich they have pretty large calibers and with pretty long range. The biggest threat of North korea is this.
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maybe a seamine since the water was not very deep and its a contested area.
As far as war between north and south korea, neither side wants it, if they wanted to they had a couple of decades to start it, its like the cold war, people with small dicks in charge thinking the other guy is preparing to invade any minute and vice versa.
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Also something else that smells fishy is total absense of north korean statement. Usually they completely deny something, or say they will wipe usa out if they try that again etc.... so i wonder.
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i have bin reading this and you guy's are talking about what happend and WW3 or a WAR.
didn't see the film 2012 ;D the world will end :D
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If it was a seamine, then why did it hit the stern and not the bow? I would expect that N korean seamines are mostly of the contact type, seeing how they are broke.
And Theta, to my knowledge the Norks fire from prepared positions. Prepared well in advance, as in we already have aerial photography.
And Lainer, yes, we are well on our way to become the impoverished communist hellhole that is western Europe.
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Maybe a 60 year old sea mine dousn't react as quickly as a new one? Everyone who has shot old ammunition will tell you that the chances of having a delay between pulling the trigger and the shot going off are quite high.
Example of this: .303 POF amunition, its sooooo bad. NEVER buy it! It's cheap for a reason.
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And Lainer, yes, we are well on our way to become the impoverished communist hellhole that is western Europe.
Is someone a little cranky over a certain piece of legislation passed recently? ;)
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...You heard the sarcasm there, right? Dripping with sarcasm?
Yeah, no, I'm sick and tired of people forecasting our impending demise. Why is our demise impending, because although we are richer than ever China is less poor than it used to be? Because our debt, higher than ever, is still half that of countries that are perfectly fine?
Honestly, my biggest worry is the education system we have. Mainly, the teachers' unions and teachers' tenure.
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well all empires fall eventually. Empires are destined to do that. Now, USA is not an empire, but it's the only superpower in world, and that is similar.
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Define fall. Being superseded does not count as falling, and the way in which Russia fell was by no means predetermined. They could have executed a more successful transition, IMO, such as the way that China became more capitalistic.
Yeah, we will not stay on top forever, but the parallels are deceiving.
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Yeah, but the USSR, fell.
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the way in which Russia fell was by no means predetermined. They could have executed a more successful transition, IMO, such as the way that China became more capitalistic.
*Sigh*
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It was though... communism has never survived.
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well all empires fall eventually. Empires are destined to do that. Now, USA is not an empire, but it's the only superpower in world, and that is similar.
U.S. is an Empire ;)It was though... communism has never survived.
No country has really been communist, the USSR was a largely socialist nation realistically, but claimed to be communist
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Honestly, my biggest worry is the education system we have. Mainly, the teachers' unions and teachers' tenure.
Agreed....I would not call it the biggest problem with our nation by far though. But then again I assume you are probably a young lad so maybe it is the most pressing thing in your life.
And +1 rep to all (myself included) for steering this bitch off track! ;D
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In-case of world end, I steel Lainers' Mp40
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well all empires fall eventually. Empires are destined to do that. Now, USA is not an empire, but it's the only superpower in world, and that is similar.
U.S. is an Empire ;)It was though... communism has never survived.
No country has really been communist, the USSR was a largely socialist nation realistically, but claimed to be communist
Yeah you're right, it is ;) just kinda wanted to stay out of that in case of some possible "hating".
USSR was stalinist. neither socialist nor communist.
Define fall. Being superseded does not count as falling, and the way in which Russia fell was by no means predetermined. They could have executed a more successful transition, IMO, such as the way that China became more capitalistic.
Yeah, we will not stay on top forever, but the parallels are deceiving.
Look throughout history.
Macedon/Greece, Roman empire, Carthage, Egypt, Holy Roman Empire etc etc. they have all fallen, destroyed either from the inside, by another empire or other factors. Empires are destined to fall, perhaps not into complete annihilation, but to be weakened AND superseded.
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add the British Empire to that list of fails
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exactly. the examples are numerous, all empires rise and fall.
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exactly. the examples are numerous, all empires rise and fall.
And the U.S. should be no exception, except the American Empire hasn't lasted that long in retrospect.
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Right.
But these are different times as well, communications across the globe can be made with the blink of an eye, in this age "everything" is 10x faster. I'm not saying that the fall of the USA will be in 10 years, it will likely take more than half a century. If, let's say the USA falls in 2060, then the empire has existed for approximately 100 years.
Now, comparing that to earlier empires it is somewhat short, but taking into consideration that this is a new age as I mentioned, and "everything" is faster, then perhaps 100 yearss is quite enough for an empire in the world of today.
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It's all a conspiracy! No one really knows what is going to happen. ;)
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of course not, I'm just saying that EVERY empire throughout history have fallen, and it USA will without a doubt fall as well.
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of course not, I'm just saying that EVERY empire throughout history have fallen, and it USA will without a doubt fall as well.
As an American I wouldn't mind if our military empire fell apart. I don't believe our military should be in 150 countries. The Russians can also have Obama too if they want :)
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http://www.aolnews.com/article/south-korea-raises-bow-of-sunken-warship/19452757
*cough cough* external explosion *cough cough*
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Yes, like i tough from day 1, 95% chance it's an old american/north-korea/south-korea/chinese sea mine from the war In the 50's.
Mines are still being found in Belgium dating from WW1 so it's not impossible at all.
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Yes, like i tough from day 1, 95% chance it's an old american/north-korea/south-korea/chinese sea mine from the war In the 50's.
Mines are still being found in Belgium dating from WW1 so it's not impossible at all.
Indeed. 15KM away from my home, they found a 250KG British airbomb sitting right under train tracks.
Now....The debate REALLY begins
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Last month they found a 500kg one about 10km away from here. Its amazing how these bombs are in such good condition, the fuse had no rust at all, it was still shiny!
(i know someone who works at the construction site they found it on, they dug it out and placed it in a field before they called the army to come and pick it up because they did not wanted to loose time working. Boy was the army and police mad at them :D)
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If both would clash again, it would result probaly in an artillery duel maybe. In wich wich artillery can kill wich faster will be the key factor. South korean artillery is more mobile, but North korean has more and more powerfull artillery
Then again, south korea has the US on their side.
Pretty much most of DPRK artillery is zeroed in on Seoul, so if a full scale war began it would become rubble in a few hours.
I doubt even the North Korean leaders are stupid enough to think their army would stand a chance. If they thought that, the war would've begun a long time ago. They're simply kicking and screaming like a spoiled brat until someone notices them and gives them what they want. And the West (or South?) don't dare to call their bluff.
The only way the Korean situation could be solved without millions getting killed would be if the DPRK army turned on it's leaders. Which I don't see happening in the near-by future.
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If both would clash again, it would result probaly in an artillery duel maybe. In wich wich artillery can kill wich faster will be the key factor. South korean artillery is more mobile, but North korean has more and more powerfull artillery
Then again, south korea has the US on their side.
Pretty much most of DPRK artillery is zeroed in on Seoul, so if a full scale war began it would become rubble in a few hours.
I doubt even the North Korean leaders are stupid enough to think their army would stand a chance. If they thought that, the war would've begun a long time ago. They're simply kicking and screaming like a spoiled brat until someone notices them and gives them what they want. And the West (or South?) don't dare to call their bluff.
The only way the Korean situation could be solved without millions getting killed would be if the DPRK army turned on it's leaders. Which I don't see happening in the near-by future.
Intresting.. a military coup to reunite Korea? This is a very good idea, you should tell the retards at the CIA about this XD
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Then they'd screw it up Royally just like the Bay of Ham
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I'd like to see how being good at Starcraft would help against DPRK guns.
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Do South Koreans even want reunification? I wouldn't.
I wouldn't be scared of North Korean invasion, I'd be scared of German-style reunification which would just bring millions of ex-communists down south looking for a handout. I'd like to see how being good at Starcraft would help against DPRK guns.
Hahahahaha!
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Then they'd screw it up Royally just like the Bay of Ham
Bay of chicken?
ROFL at the starcraft joke. I can imagine all those South Koreans crammed into their computer cafes, and then North Korean arty strikes XD I bet people all over that country will be pissed if their internet service is disrupted XD
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The South Koreans would slaughter the North if war broke out. The big reason the South does not want war is the economic fallout resulting from inheariting a third world country.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37244411/ns/world_news-asiapacific
As I figured, North korea fired a torpedo at the boat, sinking it.
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I never expected that. I strongly believed in a seamine having dragged itself away.
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Who knows what will happen now?
Should SK find the submarine responsible and sink it?
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I bet North Korea is doing this now. ^^
http://www.spike.com/video/family-guy-cant/2795756
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Last month they found a 500kg one about 10km away from here. Its amazing how these bombs are in such good condition, the fuse had no rust at all, it was still shiny!
(i know someone who works at the construction site they found it on, they dug it out and placed it in a field before they called the army to come and pick it up because they did not wanted to loose time working. Boy was the army and police mad at them :D)
Maybe they don't know how bombs explode...
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Last month they found a 500kg one about 10km away from here. Its amazing how these bombs are in such good condition, the fuse had no rust at all, it was still shiny!
(i know someone who works at the construction site they found it on, they dug it out and placed it in a field before they called the army to come and pick it up because they did not wanted to loose time working. Boy was the army and police mad at them :D)
Maybe they don't know how bombs explode...
Well, they did that the last time, lost 2 days worth of work, bombs get found here all the time. In Evergem a factory that was building a new building found a total of 11! bombs, about 1 every 3 weeks. The yanks and tommies should really have made better quality work, so many did not explode.
And the way people think is, it did not explode on impact, nor in the following 65 years so why would it blow up now?
I still believe it was a sea mine, anyway, curious if what will happen now.
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And the way people think is, it did not explode on impact, nor in the following 65 years so why would it blow up now?
That is some dangerous thinking... A bomb is always a bomb.
(they also find Japanese Grenades or even bombs in Hong Kong, with other small arms.)
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All-out war? Finnaly something in the news
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I don't know, all I heard is that it WAS hit by a torpedo and S. Korea wants revenge.. what happens next is beyond me.. but according to the ROE, they will go to war...
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I don't know, all I heard is that it WAS hit by a torpedo and S. Korea wants revenge.. what happens next is beyond me.. but according to the ROE, they will go to war...
The thing is, they found various remains of a North korean produced torpedo. They also found many traces of RDX, wich is not used in Seamines but in torpedo's.
Remeber this was an investigation by the S koreans, Americans, Canadians,British and many other countrie's. These clashes has happend before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Yeonpyeong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Yeonpyeong
North Korea IS Capable of doing this! This does NOT prove that THEY did it. But i'm just stating.
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But they can't go to war, because they still are AT war :s
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The point is, that NK knows that they are in deep shit and gonna get bombed to tiny pieces by everyone if they start a war. One of the worlds largest armys dont really count if they use 50 years old equipment, so they are kinda fucked ..
Second point is, that aslong china is protecting the Kim regime, noone will dare to make the first move, which means the NK can tount and provoke everyone they like and get away with it ..
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^ Tis' is true. They are protected by thier big brother China, who is seeming to be causing a lot of trouble and know they can get away with it....because they have virtual financial control over the United States, which is also the world's Military superpower.
@THeTAO123, no, maybe it's not written in stone yet....but what evidence do you have that says they DIDN'T do it?
@Siben, well then.... they already suceeded then, righto? What would make this strike so significant if there were already at war, they are really just at high tension... like the Cuban Missle Crisis.
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Looks like things are not very good
The independant investigation commity has truly lots of evidence that this was indeed an North korean torpedo attack.
Yet North korea says they WILL go on a all-out war if even the slighest sanction or thing follows from this.
.....Really this is not good
People might say that North korea is a poor country, but their are some things
The only way into each country is the De-militarised zone. Full of mine fields etc. sending ground troops in the beginning is impossible. It will all depend on artillery on this matter. North korea has the most numorous and the most powerfull artillery, while South korea has more accurate one's.
Seriously, its gonna be a close call for the next weeks.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/south.korea.sunken.ship/index.html
A good well made article explaining the entire situation simply for us non very clever one's. sorry i dont go to university ;D
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I would just trash North Korea economically if I was south korea, seeing as how fish they sell to SK is pretty much their only export
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Last I checked, North Korea already is trashed ecnomicallly. ;D
And this is gonna be a very interesting period, but I doubt it'll lead to war. North Korea can't risk losing, and South Korea can't risk winning.
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Oddball, if you ever write a book called "History of the World", then let us know. I'm very interesting in reading it. Your stories are fabulous.
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Yeah, sure.
But if I ever write a book, will anyone else buy it?
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How about we solve the actual issue by reuniting north and south korea, longer you wait the more difficult it will be. No Violence will make the ship unsink itself and bring back those sailors alive, whoever calls for war or whatever im pretty sure doesnt live in korea or they would talk alot different.
If it was North Korea, question is how far up this got ordered to do, a north korean minisub might have been in the area and figured this is our territory and shot the ship thinking they will be heros while the N korean leadership thought "oh crap...".
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I don't think reunification is in the best interests of South Korea.
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I do believe the korean war was never declared over with, so America may yet be involved.
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ITs in everyones interest, all the advantages greatly outweigh the disadvantages, cause the only thing that could be worse than the current situation is war.
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Well a million ex-communists looking for a handout would not make me happy.
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you act like its a problem compared to what we have today
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you act like its a problem compared to what we have today
Lol, whut? defend your communism now you facist devil. ;)
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you act like its a problem compared to what we have today
Lol, whut? defend your communism now you facist devil. ;)
if he's communist, how can he be fascist?
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you act like its a problem compared to what we have today
Lol, whut? defend your communism now you facist devil. ;)
if he's communist, how can he be fascist?
Communism and facism are fairly common just facism promotes more "brute forcing power" if you will, so therefore maybe he's a facist in alliance with the commies.. because he's very sinister, kind of more of the power lover than the political advancer.. ;)
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Fascism and Communism are two very different things....There is a reason why Hitler put them in concentration camps.
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Fascism and Communism are two very different things....There is a reason why Hitler put them in concentration camps.
They're really not though... trust me, I saw it in a movie. J/king, but no, they're really pretty similar.
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Fascism and Communism are two very different things....There is a reason why Hitler put them in concentration camps.
They're really not though... trust me, I saw it in a movie. J/king, but no, they're really pretty similar.
Read the Communist manifesto, then read about Mussolini, and or Mein Kampf. They want two different style of society.
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You made me do it...BAM: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_fascism_and_communism ::)
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You made me do it...BAM: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_fascism_and_communism ::)
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You made me do it...BAM: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_fascism_and_communism ::)
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Well seeing as that made for a rather humorous fail, Oddballs post was about a WIKI answers link to whats the diff. between communism and fascism.
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You made me do it...BAM:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_fascism_and_communism ::)
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Which demonstrates that the differences arn't significant and the majority of the principles are the same, lol.. did you even read it? Or you just becoming simplistic, too? ::)
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Can we keep the communism V. fascism debate in another thread or in PM's? I'd rather read other forumers opinions on the ROKN incident then read through an infinite number of pages with people contradicting each other. :-0
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Which demonstrates that the differences arn't significant and the majority of the principles are the same, lol.. did you even read it? Or you just becoming simplistic, too? ::)
If you want to win a debate by simply posting a WIKIPEDIA link you fail big time.
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communist fascist capitalist monarchy majoritarian assholes did it.
amidoin it rite
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If anything, North Korea is a frakking theocracy that makes Saudi Arabia look secular. For crying out loud, the long-deceased Great Leader Kim Il-Sung is still officially the "President for Life" who only happens to rule from another dimension through his son, the Dear Leader, who made several hole-in-ones when he first played golf, who has the doctorate in all fields of science and humanism, who has written thousands of books, who is the perfect fighter pilot (rumours of a chronic fear of flying are only capitalist propaganda), and whenever he appears in public a triple circular rainbow will show up in the sky and birds start singing his glory.
Considering that people are fed that felgercarb 24/7 (the only radio allowed does not have an off switch and is perpetually tuned into the Party channel - Orwell much?) it's no wonder that the country's foreign or domestic policy cannot be interpreted by any sane indvidual. This entire incident might be just another lunatic's whim, it might be a rogue sub captain sincerely doing what he thought was best to the State, or it might be that the Dear Leader has finally heard that he's terminally ill (or has noticed that Viagra does not help him anymore). If the latter holds true, then he's most likely to provoke an incident where he can claim to his people that teh eevul imperialists are attacking like they have threatened to do for decades, and then he can go down in a blaze of "glory" sure to end in history books and truly make him immortal.
Any scenario basically begins with a first strike by artillery into South Korean cities and towns close enough to border while massed infantry and tanks burst from the invasion tunnels dug beneath the DMZ, and ends with the North Korea being the largest parking lot on Earth that might or might not be glass-covered, depending on whether the Dear Leader started playing with his plutonium toys or not. China is in any case not stupid enough to cause WW3 over one insane dictator (which is more trouble than he's worth anyway), so most likely they will remain "neutral" or outright join the spanking party.
It could also be that North Korea is just testing its limits; at the current state of the world's economy, a second Korean War would be very bad news for the entire world, not just the Koreans. So if Dear Leader & co. figure that they can get away with anything, they will pull any and all crazy stunts they can imagine just because they can. On the other hand, if they are not put into place by some means, there's probably no limits to what the same minds that have come up with the tale of the divine dynasty will come up with.
While the thought that all this could be solved with a peculiar train accident that somehow involves a squadron of B-2 coincidentally dropping a full load of JDAMs on Dear Leader's train, the non-divine leaders would probably push the button anyway because they would realize that they are well and truly frakked. Gives some nice thoughts about what will happen when Dear Leader eventually and inevitably dies. No, I don't think his son has enough time to consolidate power anymore, the cementing of his position should have begun long ago for a dynastic succession to take place the second time.
In any case, I'm betting the Chinese leaders have found their belief in bad karma. They helped to create North Korea as it is, but now it will all come crashing down on their laps too.
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I agree for the most part, but I think we can understand North Korea's leadership better.
What they want is power. Power long ago stopped being about socialist worker's utopia and is now just about power for the sake of power. Kim Jong Il maintains power at home by controlling the thoughts of his people. He maintains security from foreign threats by making himself seem like a psychopath who just might pull the trigger at any moment.
It's all rational behavior though, in the sense that it's all calculated to support Kim's goals.
As one North Korean general said when North Korea moved to acquire nuclear weapons in 2003: "We see what you did to Iraq. You will not be able to do the same to us."
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So assuming it's all one big show, this fits in.... how? They need an internal demonstration of their strength? Fine. How many of those we should allow without any reaction?
Also, assuming it's all one big show, the proverbial manure still hits the fan at the point when they can no longer feed their precious third-largest army in the world. Which does happen in a few more years because the food situation is not getting any better there.
And whether it's Kim himself or a cabal of the Army & Party leaders holding onto power for power's sake, I don't think that either will give it up voluntarily. So were are facing a real Charlie Foxtrot in a near future anyway, unless they can work out some sort of a deal that they can emigrate to China and get immunity from any charges, much like what Saudis arranged for Idi Amin. Of course, that would be only the last resort because it still involves giving up power.
Further, with the setup being what it is, we don't even need an insane dictator, we just need one insane artillery officer... and I suspect that questioning the legality of your orders is not very popular up there.
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Looks like things are not very good
The independant investigation commity has truly lots of evidence that this was indeed an North korean torpedo attack.
Yet North korea says they WILL go on a all-out war if even the slighest sanction or thing follows from this.
.....Really this is not good
People might say that North korea is a poor country, but their are some things
The only way into each country is the De-militarised zone. Full of mine fields etc. sending ground troops in the beginning is impossible. It will all depend on artillery on this matter. North korea has the most numorous and the most powerfull artillery, while South korea has more accurate one's.
Seriously, its gonna be a close call for the next weeks.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/south.korea.sunken.ship/index.html
A good well made article explaining the entire situation simply for us non very clever one's. sorry i dont go to university ;D
Dude .... Since when do you send ground troops in first in modern combat ? Cmon .. thats so old fashioned. They use strategic bombers, cruise missiles, fighterbombers, artillery, all other kinds of rockets .. And while the poor NK get crushed by all kinds of explosives they cant protect themselves off, the ground troops can walk into the country through the only mine free road in a chilled and nice manner to kick the poor surviving rest of the military ...
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Which demonstrates that the differences arn't significant and the majority of the principles are the same, lol.. did you even read it? Or you just becoming simplistic, too? ::)
If you want to win a debate by simply posting a WIKIPEDIA link you fail big time.
Lol, yeah? When was this a debate? Anyways, if you think this is wrong, prove me different, try to make it a debate.
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Looks like things are not very good
The independant investigation commity has truly lots of evidence that this was indeed an North korean torpedo attack.
Yet North korea says they WILL go on a all-out war if even the slighest sanction or thing follows from this.
.....Really this is not good
People might say that North korea is a poor country, but their are some things
The only way into each country is the De-militarised zone. Full of mine fields etc. sending ground troops in the beginning is impossible. It will all depend on artillery on this matter. North korea has the most numorous and the most powerfull artillery, while South korea has more accurate one's.
Seriously, its gonna be a close call for the next weeks.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/south.korea.sunken.ship/index.html
A good well made article explaining the entire situation simply for us non very clever one's. sorry i dont go to university ;D
Dude .... Since when do you send ground troops in first in modern combat ? Cmon .. thats so old fashioned. They use strategic bombers, cruise missiles, fighterbombers, artillery, all other kinds of rockets .. And while the poor NK get crushed by all kinds of explosives they cant protect themselves off, the ground troops can walk into the country through the only mine free road in a chilled and nice manner to kick the poor surviving rest of the military ...
North korean's army is not to be underestimated. Size can matter if their still a level of quality. They have that in their artillery and their AA defenses are not to be underestimated
This is not Iraq n2 clone
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So assuming it's all one big show, this fits in.... how? They need an internal demonstration of their strength? Fine. How many of those we should allow without any reaction?
It shows the US/ROK that Kimmy is willing to pull the trigger, and he just might do it.
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Guys no Communism vs Facism vs Capitalism discussions here... I'll simply lock the thread. I am 100% TIRED of seing people whine and discuss about this topic. Go to youtube and view any russian folk song (red army choir and such). ALL filled with asshole's who say= LOL COMMUNISM FAILS MY CAPITALISM IS SO AWESOME AND COOL..
All Ism"s fail in the end.
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One thing people don't realize is that with the DPRK, their units won't stop at 30% casulties. Or 50%. Or 99.9%. They will fight to the death to take their objectives, and every last one will die to do it. They have trained all their lives, raised from babies to believe that their lives are meaningless, that their only duty is to die for the reunification of Korea under Kim. If they have a war, they will swarm the border, and our troops stationed there know that they will probably all be killed in the first days before reinforcements can arrive.
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South korea wont get far into north korea and north korea wont get far into south korea if there would be a war, which neither side wants. So talking about war is alot of fantasy.
Hilary clinton talks about more sanctions, what please will you take away from north korea that isnt already sanctioned? Cuba is still there, Iran is still there, North korea is still there with leaders who survived many many US presidents who backed those santions. How many more decades does it take before they realize....
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I SMELL WAR.
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Current state=
South korea suspended all trade's with North korea.
South korean and US forces are doing joint naval excercises
North korea has put its entire on full alert, amassed his army at the border, and called up All reservists.
North korea had its army ready one week before. Seems like they have been expecting this
Also, NO Southkorean vessels or aircraft are allowed to enter North korean waters and airspace.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/25/n.korea.threats/index.html
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The only N Korean threat I see is the artillery, oh and the 1 million angry screaming North Korean soldiers... The rest of their force is, well.... shit. I wonder how many active N Korean soldiers are actually fit for service. But the South Korean Air Force would wipe those systems out in a matter of days, especially with US support. Does N Korea have any modern AA systems? The only thing people DO underestimate is the will of the N Korean soldiers, they'll probably fight it out till the very end.
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The only N Korean threat I see is the artillery, oh and the 1 million angry screaming North Korean soldiers... The rest of their force is, well.... shit. I wonder how many active N Korean soldiers are actually fit for service. But the South Korean Air Force would wipe those systems out in a matter of days, especially with US support. Does N Korea have any modern AA systems? The only thing people DO underestimate is the will of the N Korean soldiers, they'll probably fight it out till the very end.
They have massive amounts of tanks aswel. And the means to transport all of those troops. North korea is not Iraq n2.
And with the DMZ, artillery is vital. North korea has the most artillery, the most powerfull artillery and also the means to quickly produce them + ammo.
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North korea has put its entire on full alert, amassed his army at the border, and called up All reservists.
Where do you find this? This is a major development if true...
The current view from the USA:
US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates reports that there will be no change in alert status for the almost 30,000 US troops in South Korea, but note that the US is bound by treaty to aid South Korea if war breaks out.
Gates also says that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will not affect US commitment to Korea, because planning calls for US aid in the event of a war to be primarily through air and naval power while leaving most of the ground fighting to the South Koreans, and US air and naval assets are not heavily committed in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Also, North Korea is unlikely to be re-designated as a state sponsor of terrorism by the State Department because the ship that was sunk was a South Korean warship, and the Koreas are technically still at war. Therefore, the attack does not qualify as terrorism.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/20/korea.sunken.ship.us/index.html
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North korea has put its entire on full alert, amassed his army at the border, and called up All reservists.
Where do you find this? This is a major development if true...
The current view from the USA:
US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates reports that there will be no change in alert status for the almost 30,000 US troops in South Korea, but note that the US is bound by treaty to aid South Korea if war breaks out.
Gates also says that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will not affect US commitment to Korea, because planning calls for US aid in the event of a war to be primarily through air and naval power while leaving most of the ground fighting to the South Koreans, and US air and naval assets are not heavily committed in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Also, North Korea is unlikely to be re-designated as a state sponsor of terrorism by the State Department because the ship that was sunk was a South Korean warship, and the Koreas are technically still at war. Therefore, the attack does not qualify as terrorism.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/20/korea.sunken.ship.us/index.html
Dude thats from 2 weeks ago ;D
After that newspost of yours, N Korea threathend to go on an all-out war for the slighest thing. South korea suspended all trades and is doing naval excercices with the US, while N korea fully prepared their army
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...the latest developments....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10160204.stm
"This was an unacceptable provocation by North Korea and the international community has a responsibility and a duty to respond," Mrs Clinton said.
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South Korean K1 tanks could be seen on Tuesday conducting an exercise to prepare for a possible surprise attack by North Korea.
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North Korea loves to make threats, it's their No.1 business tactic. They would be stupid to attack.
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North Korea loves to make threats, it's their No.1 business tactic. They would be stupid to attack.
It would be the end of Kims regime if total war would start since he doesn´t have full support of China anymore. Let´s hope it´ll stay a sabre-rattling. I´m not too sure if a Korean conflict would become a global conflict but we don´t need another senseless war, there´s enough shit going on right now.
But anyway, I already store some EPAs and start digging a bunker in my basement just incase WW3 comes :D
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North Korea loves to make threats, it's their No.1 business tactic. They would be stupid to attack.
It would be the end of Kims regime if total war would start since he doesn´t have full support of China anymore. Let´s hope it´ll stay a sabre-rattling. I´m not too sure if a Korean conflict would become a global conflict but we don´t need another senseless war, there´s enough shit going on right now.
But anyway, I already store some EPAs and start digging a bunker in my basement just incase WW3 comes :D
Chances are real that a war between them can start. Probaly a short conflict. But it wont trigger WW3.
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North Korea loves to make threats, it's their No.1 business tactic. They would be stupid to attack.
It would be the end of Kims regime if total war would start since he doesn´t have full support of China anymore. Let´s hope it´ll stay a sabre-rattling. I´m not too sure if a Korean conflict would become a global conflict but we don´t need another senseless war, there´s enough shit going on right now.
But anyway, I already store some EPAs and start digging a bunker in my basement just incase WW3 comes :D
But honestly, i think a war would be better for the future of north korea then even more Kim's .. Just look at South Korea. They are flourishing. One of the biggest economical countries out there with huuuge capabilities and much better living circumstances. The world will keep on turning, and what are some losses in relation to the future of a whole country, a whole culture ?
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Chances are real that a war between them can start. Probaly a short conflict. But it wont trigger WW3.
Depends on whether or not they decide to fire on the 'peacekeepers', aka. American Soldiers.
But honestly, i think a war would be better for the future of north korea then even more Kim's .. Just look at South Korea. They are flourishing. One of the biggest economical countries out there with huuuge capabilities and much better living circumstances. The world will keep on turning, and what are some losses in relation to the future of a whole country, a whole culture ?
I don't know if south Korea could survive the economic backlash of a reunification with the North. They don't exactly have the same resources which we did prior to our unification plus the infrastructure in NK is truely desolate.
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And let us not forget that if NK fires its artillery SK will have some serious repairs to do.
Is SK capital in NK arty range? Ifso, i do not think we have ever seen such an amount off loss in life in such a short period of time.
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So do we have WW3 yet? We seriously need one for FH3.
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So do we have WW3 yet? We seriously need one for FH3.
No, we should probably wait, because that would only slow down the production of FH2, which isn't even 1/4 finished yet..... ::)
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It isn't that far away. 40-30km to downtown Seoul.
I just love the huge white block that NK is on this google map. ^^
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This picture is even more revealing: http://www.atr.org/userfiles/korea-by-night.jpg
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This picture is even more revealing: http://www.atr.org/userfiles/korea-by-night.jpg
At least the North saves money on their electric bill... ;D
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This picture is even more revealing: http://www.atr.org/userfiles/korea-by-night.jpg
At least the North saves money on their electric bill... ;D
So they can use their imaginary money to buy imaginary food.
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At least the North saves money on their electric bill... ;D
I'm not too sure they even have electrical networks. Not for the plebs anyway.
With that said, if a war starts I don't think Kim will last long. Besides neverending firepower provided by the US, he won't have any support from his people. The only question would be if they have the balls to actually revolt or just wait and see.
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At least the North saves money on their electric bill... ;D
I'm not too sure they even have electrical networks. Not for the plebs anyway.
With that said, if a war starts I don't think Kim will last long. Besides neverending firepower provided by the US, he won't have any support from his people. The only question would be if they have the balls to actually revolt or just wait and see.
If its North vs South korea the result cannot be predicted. South korea has 2000 tanks, of wich 500 are modern with 120MM guns. North korea has 4500 tanks, of wich their most modern, Chonma" something, is a not to underestimated enemy.
No. Decieve key will be artillery+ Who gets his troops over the DMZ. In wich North korea is better the South.
But the US will probaly intervene.
But this is the worst case scenario
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This is all posturing by Norh Korea... but that doesn't mean they can't manage to posture their way into a fighting war. I don't feel at all safe in the thought that North Korea would act rationally and not suicidally if they get pushed hard enough.
If that happens we will see multi-national UN support of South Korea and no support for North Korea. I think you would get a verbal outcry from China, but they have too much to lose to get into another war with America and the rest of the world. The x-factor here of course is that if China stands by and lets North Korea fall without assistance, this would embolden Taiwan so they may also feel pressed into action.
In any case, there would undoubtedly be a lot of Koreans killed, but ultimately a UN supported South Korea would prevail. It would be much better to let the North Korean government die of old age and change from within, which I think would eventually happen because eventually they would get a leader who wanted to help his people. The best plan is to posture back just well enough to NOT provoke a fighting war, but to discourage further shenanigans from the north.
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This page has a good summary of North Korean artillery and missile capabilities with illustrations:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes!-%282009%29
The most surprising thing? Most North Korean artillery and MLRS launchers cannot reach Seoul. Only their very large long range artillery can do this, as well as their missile forces.
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...The most surprising thing? Most North Korean artillery and MLRS launchers cannot reach Seoul. Only their very large long range artillery can do this, as well as their missile forces.
Well they have dug themselves in for defense and not offense, so it does make sense to have your artillery away from where the first bombs will fall. (in this case the DMZ)
But a fun forum nevertheless. ^^
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ONe thing you all forget is supplies. North Korea has enough fuel to run its tanks and airforce for about a week. So if there is a war, expect a week of fierce combat, followed by a rout. Their entire bet is that South Korea would surrender if they can manage a week of sustained slaughter of South Korean civilians. My hope is that the South Koreans will bear it.
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well there wont be a war so dont worry. play hollywood movies if you want to see action and people dying.
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well there wont be a war so dont worry. play hollywood movies if you want to see action and people dying.
I remember England saying something similar back in the ..ah...late thirties.
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yes cause the situation in europe in the thirties is the same as in korea in 2010, makes perfect sense now thanks!
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Hehe so true Stefan. ;)
Another point against any war is that SK wouldn't want NK due to, as I said, the economic burden a reunification would bring. The second point here is that China doesn't want US bases on it's direct border so they will and have exerted a lot of pressure on NK's leader.
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The longer they wait the more difficult the reunification will be. And i think the financial cost outweighs the cost of human life this very moment and in the future.
I think Germany could be very helpful as negotiator and help with their experience be it the good or bad.
I do agree its not the best solution to throw N korea and S korea together under a S korean system in one day like in germany and then still have US army around. Most likely cause N korean leadership wouldnt go for that, germany's case the east german gov kinda was unable to act when Kohl dediced to go for the reunification.
What i do see as a solution is a 10 year plan to fix at least the infrastructure that would end up in a full reunification.
South korea and N korea open their borders but stay seperat countries.
All sanctions get lifted on North korea in exchange for getting rid of their WMDs
Both Armies being reduced by 40% in those 10 years.
North Korea eases up on the cracking down on those who criticise the gouvernment and go for a more chinese like system politically and economicly , in enchange for US troops to leave korea.
Both countries simply need to compromise and realize you wont have it 100% your way or this situation will last another 100 years.
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That's why you're not in power to do anything about it: You're thinking of this in a sane way. The North Koreans have let go of sanity a long time ago.
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What i do see as a solution is a 10 year plan to fix at least the infrastructure that would end up in a full reunification.
South korea and N korea open their borders but stay seperat countries.
All sanctions get lifted on North korea in exchange for getting rid of their WMDs
Both Armies being reduced by 40% in those 10 years.
North Korea eases up on the cracking down on those who criticise the gouvernment and go for a more chinese like system politically and economicly , in enchange for US troops to leave korea.
Both countries simply need to compromise and realize you wont have it 100% your way or this situation will last another 100 years.
These are good ideas, but they are predicated on a change of leadership in North Korea.
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North Korean news report:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/dprk/2010/dprk-100525-kcna03.htm
It looks like they ran it through google translator.
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(http://knowyourmeme.com/i/19268/original/bump.jpg)
http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/north-korea-threatens-physical-response-to-us-war-games/19565759
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They're all talk, they are just testing Obama's military integrity... they know he's weak and they can just walk all over him.
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Did not read your link but makes sense, those excersises are 100% provocation of you ask me, it would be like Russia doing full out invasion drills in Cuba or Mexico or bering sea during the cold war. The us would have reacted on it no doubd.
Hell, they even reacted on building a missle silo.
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They're all talk, they are just testing Obama's military integrity... they know he's weak and they can just walk all over him.
Idano, Oddball. That is sort of a funny way of looking at it. They gave the man the Nobel Peace Prize for heaven's sake, he kinda has an obligation to...not try to blow up the world?
Also, what's all this about other countries walking over us in THEIR domestic affairs? Last time I checked these are the United States of America, not Korea. "Krazy" Kim may be a horrible, insane man. But Hitler he is not. There is no real fear of North Korean soldiers marching onto the beaches of California. I'm all for helping contain, but this situation was none of our business to start with, thus, our opinion on their domestic squabbles may be appreciated, in the end they are irrelevant.
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Considering the number of terrorists that have been given the Nobel Peace Prize over the years, I'm not sure how much that means anymore.
Did not read your link but makes sense, those excersises are 100% provocation of you ask me, it would be like Russia doing full out invasion drills in Cuba or Mexico or bering sea during the cold war. The us would have reacted on it no doubd.
Yes, but if a US submarine torpedoed and sunk a Russian ship in the Caribbean most people would have expected the Russians to launch a war in response, not military exercises.
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i say more sanctions! it worked wonderful the past 60 years, another 100 years and we got what we want!
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They're all talk, they are just testing Obama's military integrity... they know he's weak and they can just walk all over him.
Idano, Oddball. That is sort of a funny way of looking at it. They gave the man the Nobel Peace Prize for heaven's sake, he kinda has an obligation to...not try to blow up the world?
Also, what's all this about other countries walking over us in THEIR domestic affairs? Last time I checked these are the United States of America, not Korea. "Krazy" Kim may be a horrible, insane man. But Hitler he is not. There is no real fear of North Korean soldiers marching onto the beaches of California. I'm all for helping contain, but this situation was none of our business to start with, thus, our opinion on their domestic squabbles may be appreciated, in the end they are irrelevant.
pfft, it's been almost 70 years since the last World War, isn't it about time for another. :P But no, Megaraptor is right, The Nobel Peace Prize is more of a ... kid's toy sort of speak, I mean... i'm suprissed they arn't giving them out as Kid's McDonals Happy Meal toys, or perhaps you can buy them on Ebay. I mean seriously, for 3 examples, Yasser Arafat, a Islamic radical that continued to cause violence long after he was awarded the Peace Prize and then there was that lady in Africa in 2006 I believe that was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for planting so many trees...c'mon now - really? That's a nice gesture and all but how is that really bringing peace to the world? Then there is Obama, could someone please explain how he helped bring about peace...all I see now a days is still tension, conflict, violence and problems. It really is a meaning less award now-a-days.
As for North Korean troops storming the beaches of the United States, no.. that really isn't likely. However, they do have nukes... ;D. Seriosuly though, to establish good relations with other nations you must be willing to help them; and we are South Korea's ally, therefore we should help them if necessary...even if it doesn't directly effect the United States at the moment. What is we don't support or reinforce our allies in their times of need, and when we come to our time of need, why should they feel obligated to help us if they know we have no intentions of doing the same....Now i'm not saying ho in there and kill the dude like we did Saddam, right away...but if it comes to the point where that is our only reasonable choice before nukes start flying, by all means lets do it!
...just a little fuel for thought....
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Of course we must stand by South Korea! Oh my yes. I didn't mean just because it wasn't a good idea that we should bail on people who trust us now. The same reason I believe we must not give up on the reconstruction of Iraq. We made a promise, we have to keep it.
As for what he has done to promote peace? I see not picking fights with a bunch of countries as promoting peace.
We are a country that uses bully tactics and extortion to get what it wants from "lesser" nations? Is that really the kind of country you want to be a part of? Not me. And if you disagree with that, fine, but there is no point in us continuing this discussion if that is the case.
PS
Enter the rising superpower of the far east
http://eng.mod.gov.cn/IntlMilitary/2010-07/23/content_4177288.htm
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let the games begin
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Of course we must stand by South Korea! Oh my yes. I didn't mean just because it wasn't a good idea that we should bail on people who trust us now. The same reason I believe we must not give up on the reconstruction of Iraq. We made a promise, we have to keep it.
As for what he has done to promote peace? I see not picking fights with a bunch of countries as promoting peace.
We are a country that uses bully tactics and extortion to get what it wants from "lesser" nations? Is that really the kind of country you want to be a part of? Not me. And if you disagree with that, fine, but there is no point in us continuing this discussion if that is the case.
I agree, except with the promoting peace thing. Nobody is suppose to pick fight with a bunch of countries for the hell of it. That's standard procedure, not something special. There are lots of Leaders in various nations that don't go and start wars with other nations and get no rewards...which is the normal thing to do. I undertand that the United States is a world superpower which other nations "look up to", if you will, but that still doesn't make Obama alone on his war diversion "tactics".
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I don't care about other countries looking up to us. Just by the US not starting new wars we save lives and improves our image abroad. If we could dedicate our military to peacekeeping missions rather than overthrowing dictatorships we don't approve of that happens to be sitting on top of an oil well.
We aught to do the right thing, because it is the right thing.
Plenty of genocide going on in Africa. Iraq was a relatively stable place compared to just about anywhere on the African Continent.
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Man, I just don't understand some people. North Korea sends submarines to torpedo South Korean ships completely out of the blue, kills dozens, threatens to start a war if anyone even so much as says they are responsible, then threatens to use nuclear weapons (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10748148)against a US-South Korea military exercise off the coast of South Korea. In the meantime, China threatens to sink US carriers (http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2010070748478)if they enter the Yellow Sea in international waters.
...and yet some people on these boards say AMERICA is the one being needlessly provocative???
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Man, I just don't understand some people. North Korea sends submarines to torpedo South Korean ships completely out of the blue, kills dozens, threatens to start a war if anyone even so much as says they are responsible, then threatens to use nuclear weapons (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10748148)against a US-South Korea military exercise off the coast of South Korea. In the meantime, China threatens to sink US carriers (http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2010070748478)if they enter the Yellow Sea in international waters.
...and yet some people on these boards say AMERICA is the one being needlessly provocative???
The US is always the bad guys, havn't you learnt that yet? ::) Especially if they even think about using military power, even to just defend themselves, they're evil and shouldn't be starting needless military actions. Just let everyone munipulate you. C'mon now... don't you know the cultural norm around the world? Have you been living under a rock or something? ::)
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check USA on the map , check North korea on the map .....
I say everyone minds their own business :)
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Like I've always said, this crazy delusional fuckheads is a thousand times more dangerous than Iran.
Why the hell all of the sudden, after the sinking, it gets every attention from those ignorant rednecks?
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can anyone tell me where did it says that it was a north korean submarine ?? thanks
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can anyone tell me where did it says that it was a north korean submarine ?? thanks
Pretty easy for a trained investigator to tell if an explosion happened on the inside or outside of a ship.
You can read the report here: http://www.mnd.go.kr/mndEng_2009/WhatsNew/RecentNews/index.jsp
The JIG assesses that a strong underwater explosion generated by the detonation of a homing torpedo below and to the left of the gas turbine room caused Republic of Korea Ship(ROKS) "Cheonan" to split apart and sink.
The basis of our assessment that the sinking was caused by a torpedo attack is as follows:
Precise measurement and analysis of the damaged part of the hull indicates that a shockwave and bubble effect caused significant upward bending of the CVK(Center Vertical Keel), compared to its original state, and shell plate was steeply bent, with some parts of the ship fragmented.
On the main deck, fracture occurred around the large openings used for maintenance of equipment in the gas turbine room and significant upward deformation is present on the port side. Also, the bulkhead of the gas turbine room was significantly damaged and deformed.
The bottoms of the stern and bow sections at the failure point were bent upward. This also proves that an underwater explosion took place.
Through a thorough investigation of the inside and outside of the ship, we have found evidence of extreme pressure on the fin stabilizer, a mechanism to reduce significant rolling of the ship; water pressure and bubble effects on the bottom of the hull; and wires cut with no traces of heat. All these point to a strong shockwave and bubble effect causing the splitting and the sinking of the ship.
We have analyzed statements by survivors from the incident and a sentry on Baekryong-do.
The survivors made a statement that they heard a near-simultaneous explosion once or twice, and that water splashed on the face of a port-side lookout who fell from the impact; furthermore, a sentry on the shore of Baekryong-do stated that he witnessed an approximately 100-meter-high "pillar of white flash" for 2~3 seconds. The aforementioned phenomenon is consistent with damage resulting from a shockwave and bubble effect.
Regarding the medical examination on the deceased service members, no trace of fragmentation or burn injury were found, but fractures and lacerations were observed. All of these are consistent with damage resulting from a shockwave and bubble effect.
The seismic and infrasound wave analysis result conducted by the Korea Institute of Geoscience and Mineral Resources (KIGAM) is as follows:
Seismic wave intensity of 1.5 degrees was detected by 4 stations.
2 infrasound waves with a 1.1-second interval were detected by 11 stations.
The seismic and infrasound waves originated from an identical site of explosion.
This phenomenon corresponds to a shock wave and bubble effect generated by an underwater explosion.
Numerous simulations of an underwater explosion show that a detonation with a net explosive weight of 200~300kg occurred at a depth of about 6~9m, approximately 3m left of the center of the gas turbine room.
Based on the analysis of tidal currents off Baekryong-do, the JIG determined that the currents would not prohibit a torpedo attack.
As for conclusive evidence that can corroborate the use of a torpedo, we have collected propulsion parts, including propulsion motor with propellers and a steering section from the site of the sinking.
The evidence matched in size and shape with the specifications on the drawing presented in introductory materials provided to foreign countries by North Korea for export purposes. The marking in Hangul, which reads "1번(or No. 1 in English)", found inside the end of the propulsion section, is consistent with the marking of a previously obtained North Korean torpedo. The above evidence allowed the JIG to confirm that the recovered parts were made in North Korea.
Also, the aforementioned result confirmed that other possible causes for sinking raised, including grounding, fatigue failure, mines, collision and internal explosion, played no part in the incident.
In conclusion,
The following sums up the opinions of Korean and foreign experts on the conclusive evidence collected from the incident site; hull deformation; statements of relevant personnel; medical examination of the deceased service members; analysis on seismic and infrasound waves; simulation of underwater explosion; and analysis on currents off Baekryong-do and collected torpedo parts.
ROKS "Cheonan" was split apart and sunk due to a shockwave and bubble effect produced by an underwater torpedo explosion.
The explosion occurred approximately 3m left of the center of the gas turbine room, at a depth of about 6~9m.
The weapon system used is confirmed to be a high explosive torpedo with a net explosive weight of about 250kg, manufactured by North Korea.
In addition, the findings of the Multinational Combined Intelligence Task Force, comprised of 5 states including the US, Australia, Canada and the UK and operating since May 4th, are as follows:
The North Korean military is in possession of a fleet of about 70 submarines, comprised of approximately 20 Romeo class submarines(1,800 tons), 40 Sango class submarines(300 tons) and 10 midget submarines including the Yeono class(130 tons).
It also possesses torpedoes of various capabilities including straight running, acoustic and wake homing torpedoes with a net explosive weight of about 200 to 300kg, which can deliver the same level of damage that was delivered to the ROKS "Cheonan."
Given the aforementioned findings combined with the operational environment in the vicinity of the site of the incident, we assess that a small submarine is an underwater weapon system that operates in these operational environment conditions. We confirmed that a few small submarines and a mother ship supporting them left a North Korean naval base in the West Sea 2-3 days prior to the attack and returned to port 2-3 days after the attack.
Furthermore, we confirmed that all submarines from neighboring countries were either in or near their respective home bases at the time of the incident.
The torpedo parts recovered at the site of the explosion by a dredging ship on May 15th, which include the 5x5 bladed contra-rotating propellers, propulsion motor and a steering section, perfectly match the schematics of the CHT-02D torpedo included in introductory brochures provided to foreign countries by North Korea for export purposes. The markings in Hangul, which reads "1번(or No. 1 in English)", found inside the end of the propulsion section, is consistent with the marking of a previously obtained North Korean torpedo. Russian and Chinese torpedoes are marked in their respective languages.
The CHT-02D torpedo manufactured by North Korea utilizes acoustic/wake homing and passive acoustic tracking methods. It is a heavyweight torpedo with a diameter of 21 inches, a weight of 1.7 tons and a net explosive weight of up to 250kg.
Based on all such relevant facts and classified analysis, we have reached the clear conclusion that ROKS "Cheonan" was sunk as the result of an external underwater explosion caused by a torpedo made in North Korea. The evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine. There is no other plausible explanation.
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check USA on the map , check North korea on the map .....
I say everyone minds their own business :)
I agree but I have the feeling you don't really believe what you just posted.
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http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/north-korea-vows-nuclear-response-to-us-drills-in-sea-of-japan/19567080?icid=main|compaq-desktop|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fworld%2Farticle%2Fnorth-korea-vows-nuclear-response-to-us-drills-in-sea-of-japan%2F19567080
fucktard koreans, wait 2 years before getting in a war with us so I can enlist ffs
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you wanna go to a war? ??? ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0acN2v6aIc
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You can have war if you want it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiLH_bt_vbo
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you wanna go to a war? ??? ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0acN2v6aIc
Funny, I was just listening to bf:v soundtracks too :P
You can have war if you want it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiLH_bt_vbo
looks like an interesting game.
Keep posts Ot though or to pms, I would rather see discussion about the subject at hand than opinions about war
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you wanna go to a war? ??? ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0acN2v6aIc
Yes, yes I do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd-K0XqnHGA
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This is looking pretty intense...I wonder if operations will cease. I hope not. We shouldn't have to live the way other countries want/expect us to. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38375802/ns/world_news-asiapacific?GT1=43001 ...alwell, time to start digging those nuclear fallout shelters again... ;) Only a couple days untill we find out.
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. We shouldn't have to live the way other countries want/expect us to.
Isn't this what America does to the rest of the world?
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. We shouldn't have to live the way other countries want/expect us to.
Isn't this what America does to the rest of the world?
Nope, name one instance. We don't care how anyone else chooses to live, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T POSE A THREAT TO OUR WAY OF LIFE. But that's rather a different topic.
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You got to see the bigger picture. Think of the north corean identity. What makes a north korean a north corean?
- Communism
- being a child of the great leader
- exterior enemies
In the end north corea compensates domestically problems by creating fictional exterior threads in order to unite the people behind their leader. And as there is no free press, this is a great instrument to synchronize people in their believe, that those domestically problems (famine, crop failure, economic stagnation) are caused by foreign powers. So, fictional external threads are a domestically instrument for them. They will always use them, without ever being interested in a war. A war would be the end of the regime.
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That's probably the case, I just hope their leaders don't start believing their own propaganda.
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. We shouldn't have to live the way other countries want/expect us to.
Isn't this what America does to the rest of the world?
Nope, name one instance. We don't care how anyone else chooses to live, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T POSE A THREAT TO OUR WAY OF LIFE. But that's rather a different topic.
Indonesia, Chile, Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Australia, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Guatemala, Panama, Mexico, Italy, France, Turkey, Philippines, Colombia, Brazil, South Africa, East Timor, West Papua, Haiti etc etc.
Not the best source in the world but it's a brief list. I have better but they are books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions)
Anyway, here is a good link on North Korea's potential.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/25/2580158.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/25/2580158.htm)
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Sigh, the U.S keeps sticking their nose into other people's business.
Why is the U.S wanting to find reasons to go to war when they are already engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Back in the 1890s this one idiotic U.S Army troop fired one goddamn shot and then my nation (the Philippines) went to war with the U.S, thus making the Philippine Islands occupied by yet another Western country.
If N. Korea sunk that corvette, it's the problem of the S. Korean Government, not the damn U.S Secretary of State and the White House.
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Sigh, the U.S keeps sticking their nose into other people's business.
Why is the U.S wanting to find reasons to go to war when they are already engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Back in the 1890s this one idiotic U.S Army troop fired one goddamn shot and then my nation (the Philippines) went to war with the U.S, thus making the Philippine Islands occupied by yet another Western country.
If N. Korea sunk that corvette, it's the problem of the S. Korean Government, not the damn U.S Secretary of State and the White House.
Well, maybe it's because we arn't TRYING to find a reason to go to war, perhaps we are the ones being antagonized, and yes, it is the business of the United States if North korea decides to take Military action against South Korea because we are their allies and it is our duty to defend our allies to increase international relations and foreign policies.
@Spartan, just listing a name of a bunch of countries doesn't show how we "forced" our idealogy on other nations and made them do what we want. As for your Wiki article, yes the CIA has helped rebillion groups to overthrow leaders of nations in which a potentially harmful, or unfit leader was in charge. We didn't initiate or start the rebellion...but we adided in it to make sure a fit leader would retake the place of the ex-leader for the general wellfare of all nations. plus this aid would help us establish allies and again, it helps foreign policies.
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[or unfit leader was in charge. We didn't initiate or start the rebellion...but we adided in it to make sure a fit leader would retake the place of the ex-leader for the general wellfare of all nations. America
plus this aid would help us establish allies and again, it helps foreign policies.
Come on man, I was just joking when I said that America was all-bad, but you can't justify this.
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thanks to the nukes no one has touched N korea and thanks to the nukes no one will touch N Korea, they can bluff and get away with it.
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If N. Korea sunk that corvette, it's the problem of the S. Korean Government, not the damn U.S Secretary of State and the White House.
1954 US-ROK Mutual Defense Treaty...yes, it is the USA's problem.
Also why you've seen South Korea send troops to fight in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
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[or unfit leader was in charge. We didn't initiate or start the rebellion...but we adided in it to make sure a fit leader would retake the place of the ex-leader for the general wellfare of all nations. America
plus this aid would help us establish allies and again, it helps foreign policies.
Come on man, I was just joking when I said that America was all-bad, but you can't justify this.
You can't justify this when the party that is friendly to the US is complete arsehole or the other way around.
Mostly they supported dictator regime in the Philippines (Marcos), South Korea (Rhee), Chile (Pinochet), Indonesia, South Vietnam, and to name a few. All corrupt and suppress press freedom, and lastly, defeat their opponents using means that is unacceptable even by American standards. Let me see, Pinochet, or even our previous leader, who kidnapped several political activist and make them "gone" or "silenced forever". Did US backed these regime of terrors or what? Simply just because they are anti-communist? Or did they approve the corruption, collusion, or nepotism that was clearly happening all around us?
Some of them, when it is no longer cold war (or any direct threat from communism), are simply sacked after they find no use of some of these human rights abuser. Some are even charged heavily in international court. Clearly, those US officials stationed in these "friendly countries" repeatedly advised them to be careful, but some local ways might just worked best.
Some find a safe haven in Europe or US, buying homes using their stolen money. When the Europeans are no longer ruled over us, now the US took charge.
However, bludgeoning North Korea is something that I approve. Enough with the brainwashing, children starving, and men being told to do by some delusional god-impersonating lunatic.
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They do have a good football team, though.
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They do have a good football team, though.
Because the consequences of failure are dire indeed. They probably train them all day every day for years, depriving them of a personal life for the good of Dear Leader.
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@Spartan, just listing a name of a bunch of countries doesn't show how we "forced" our idealogy on other nations and made them do what we want. As for your Wiki article, yes the CIA has helped rebillion groups to overthrow leaders of nations in which a potentially harmful, or unfit leader was in charge. We didn't initiate or start the rebellion...but we adided in it to make sure a fit leader would retake the place of the ex-leader for the general wellfare of all nations. plus this aid would help us establish allies and again, it helps foreign policies.
Because you asked for a single example when there are dozens of cases where the U.S supported dictatorships or pulverized popular democratic movements because they were deemed a 'threat' to U.S interests, which is a buzz term for 'U.S business interests'.
The United States remains the only country condemned by the world court for international terrorism for its support of the Contras in Nicaragua. If the U.S didn't have the power of veto, it also would have been condemned by the Security Council and the General Assembly of the U.N.
Don't worry though. All countries behave this way, your just big enough to reach further then most nations. There is nothing wrong with the U.S itself, it's just the reality of how great powers behave. The Europeans are just jealous they can't play the world game anymore. North Korea is China's only friend in the region which is why they are so keen on keeping it alive. The real question is whether North Korea is stupid enough to pick a fight with the U.S Alliance.
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China can't be said to be North Korea's friend. They are just their neighbour, and as every Chinese think, we don't want any fuss near our backyard. Thus the Chinese are just playing "nice" with their uncontrollable neighbour. In case the North Korean attacked first, they won't hesitate to withdraw any support. No more "cheats" or "reinforcements" like the 1950s Korean war, as the North Koreans simply don't include the sacrifice of the PRC's human waves in their brainwashing text book.
Because you asked for a single example when there are dozens of cases where the U.S supported dictatorships or pulverized popular democratic movements because they were deemed a 'threat' to U.S interests, which is a buzz term for 'U.S business interests'.
Yeah, and they slipped out some few real bastards they should've taken out long before. Like the loud-mouthed Chavez.
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They do have a good football team, though.
Because the consequences of failure are dire indeed. They probably train them all day every day for years, depriving them of a personal life for the good of Dear Leader.
Actually an amount of them play for Japanese clubs so no state interference at all for them, and there seems to be little state interference in the others' training. They're quite an underdog team usually, they have little to train with, obviously, but they do play gallantly. The only reason they were routed this year is because the government noticed their skill against Brazil and interfered in the team's business, which messed them up.
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The U.S. doesn't just aid countries because they believe with thier political ways and etc.; or else we wouldn't of helped Osama's Mujahadeen push the Russians out of Afghanistan...because we knew what would of happened if they blocked the oil off. That wasn't just for the better interest of the United States, but rather the world.
Believe it or not, we really get involved with foreign countries affairs' as minimal as possible. Or else we would of long been in Africa, South America, etc... However, it really isn't our place to tell them how they should run their governments - as long as it doesn't affect us negatively. Approval or dissaproval of governments would mostly be up to the UN; but I can tell you what they do.... they are ass corrupt as they come.
For all of you that say we don't interfer with 3rd world or borderline 3rd world countries is because they wouldn't help our economical growth, that's actually incorrect. Considering the rich natural resources most of those contries poses without the means of extracting them. They are well capable of becoming a world power. Especially Africa, sitting in the middle of the world, great spot for trade routes and stuff. They would a good ally if they could get their shit together. However it's really none of our business to fight the warlords.
Now don't go telling me we're making "blood money" and crap from the current corrupt leaders of these countries because those are private businesses that don't offer any benefit to the U.S. Economy: besides stimulating it little, which obviously doesn't work well at the moment and would be much stronger and they were developed. Although that would take away the natural bueaty of the country...
If the United States did overthrow those governments and try to set up a sucessfull democratic government, we would recieve the same crap we are recieving about Iraq now. However, if we don't we will recieve: 'Oh! You should help those poor 3rd world countries, just because they don't offer any benefits you arn't! crap.' It's a lose lose situation.
Anyways, we will see what happens tomarrow.
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The US could have just couldn't care less like Rwanda case. Just make a point, get straight, and stop making reasons. Why overthrow Saddam? Clearly he is less fanatical than other freakazoids around his country. Why not the Ayatollahs in Iran? Because Iranians are happier? Because Iranian Jews can sell alcohol and keep nude pictures? Because Diego Bunnuel can travel there? Because one Ayatollah said "US tourists are welcome, US soldiers are not." ?
IMO, the world seriously need some policing, but not US alone, that could be viewed as US-bias (although not always).
It is hard being a conservative, but some people just need to keep up with the facts, not only CNBC, CNN or Fox News or just both.