Author Topic: Proof god exists  (Read 13053 times)

Offline Fuchs

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #30 on: 21-04-2010, 19:04:32 »
Yeah I'm pretty much like TS, I don't care what you believe, just don't bother me with it.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline Mr.Deceptive

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #31 on: 21-04-2010, 20:04:32 »
My opinion: People who believe in a higher power have a massive ego and generally have their head up their own ass.

My post will no doubt get deleted, as sure a religious person may call an atheist any name in the book, but when it's the other way around it's considered hate.
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Offline siben

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #32 on: 21-04-2010, 20:04:13 »
My opinion: People who believe in a higher power have a massive ego and generally have their head up their own ass.

Nah, in general they are nice people. People of who you often don't expect it. There are ofcourse always the extremists but just ignore those, they are a minority.

Never start a religious discussion of you aren't well prepared tough, often they have some friggin good arguments. But just counter those with bible quotes like i do. There isn't much they can say then.

My defence that i most often use, and that a lot of people accept, is that even tough the bible is a good book teaching us many good things i can not believe because it is way to violent and treats the woman to badly.

Offline Mr.Deceptive

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #33 on: 21-04-2010, 20:04:16 »
You have to do mental somersaults to accept god if you are a rationally critical person
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Offline siben

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #34 on: 21-04-2010, 20:04:38 »
Maybe, but for some people the thought alone that there might be a god out there listening to there needs is enough for them to get motivated and do good things.

Yeah, others use it as an excuse to kill, but those are once again a minority. At the moment it is helping more people then it is killing, thus it is a good thing.

If you are ever in a very bad situation and nobody can help you then even you might very well turn to god. Only then is even an "imaginary" friend good for you. And once things get better you will still believe that he helped you. It may have been true or not, i don't care, but if you would ask a friend of me, who lived in Rwanda untill '94 and then had to spend one very shitty year in a refugee camp in eastern Congo before being relocated to Cameroon not knowing if anyone else from her family survived the genocide other then her and her brother you would understand (i hope)

Offline djinn

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #35 on: 21-04-2010, 20:04:08 »
Certainly, you have reason for not believing, but imagine such a comment was made by a believer about people who don't beleive... and they do make them, you'd be proper irritated, no?

I used to be a devout Christian till 2007 so I know how it is. Thankfully, I'm also a logician and if something cannot be proven in any way or form, then I can't beleive in it.

I respect people's faith, and in Ghana, I form something like 5% at most of the population who will openly say they are Atheist. I even have a good number of friends who are Christian. I do think however it is a failed system, from my position. We made National Socialism illegal because of the statistical facts about it. As a theory, it looks nice and pretty, as a system, it was a disaster. For me, so it is for Christianity.

I cannot comment about other religions, but I think Buddhism or some of its beliefs are cool, Islam might be as broken or close to as broken as Christianity. Issue is, with religion as opposed to social theory, you cannot as a race ban them, sadly.

One other thing I note with Christians here is that most of them live more for the fear of the possibility of Hell, than for the love for God and that's why they find every excuse to preach or try to get others to beleive their way of life. Its less because they fear and love God, but more because they are completely spooked by not performing and going Hell.

That, and they are more concerned about their conscience than what is actually right and wrong. The Bible is conveniently vague so it boils down to what your heart thinks and with Christians, this translates into that prick of conscience, a thing Chrsitians always twist and turn while battling the temptations of living like everyone else and having fun or living by the Book - After a while of twisting their conscience, you get a bunch of people (Not all though), who are more interested in satisfying their conscience than doing real useful good for the world. As long as they can do one or two things that shuts their conscience up, they are fine. So I find many of my Christian friends less people of their word and less reliable as friends than my less or non believing friends

So yer, I think the system is cracked - And proven the existence of God is an Agnostic project, real Believers would see the contradiction. With proof there is no need for Faith. Sadly, for religions like Chrsitianity, Faith equates into holding your breath with no evidence on earth to justify diddly-squat. And if you live the good life and die, you won't come back to tell anyone there is indeed a heaven. Not my idea of a way to spend the rest of life... Funny enough, the one feeling I felt when I admitted to myself that I no longer believed was FREEDOM... blissful freedom to run free :-)

Offline Mr.Deceptive

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #36 on: 21-04-2010, 20:04:49 »
I don't personally get irritated, because those people are wrong. If somebody told me that I had blond hair instead of my brown hair, I would say "what no" because they are wrong. It's the same thing. They are just flat out wrong.

Belief in god is fear in god. You use it as a last resort because you have no other way of dealing with your situation, which is called lack of education/information. In my opinion it is extremely immature.
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Offline Thorondor123

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #37 on: 21-04-2010, 21:04:48 »
Atatürk put it well:
"I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men."
Let mortal heroes sing your fame

Offline Oddball

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #38 on: 21-04-2010, 21:04:26 »
I don't personally get irritated, because those people are wrong. If somebody told me that I had blond hair instead of my brown hair, I would say "what no" because they are wrong. It's the same thing. They are just flat out wrong.

Belief in god is fear in god. You use it as a last resort because you have no other way of dealing with your situation, which is called lack of education/information. In my opinion it is extremely immature.
This is flat out wrong...I can say that too on virtually as much evidence as you have to say I'm wrong. So therefore, no, invalid point.

I find most people who do not believe in a God or Diety havn't read and understood a Holy book and their teachings, hasn't attended Church, or made connections amoungst the religions.

Gah, there are so many points I want to refute I just don't have the time, so a couple quick more.

1.) I disagree with you djinn on your opinion about "So I find many of my Christian friends less people of their word and less reliable as friends than my less or non believing friends". Mainly because I know it to be the opposite of what you said. Also because those who live with a religion have basic principles of virtues and morals...I myself along with many others I know hold true to my word all the time, I strive for honesty and respect, 2 traits which I highly admire.

2.) Seperation of State and Religion lol, hehe ..haha, ...hoho alright enough said about that.


Offline Mspfc Doc DuFresne

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #39 on: 22-04-2010, 03:04:30 »
My personal theology is very simple:

1. I don't believe there is a god; I am a weak atheist, since by definition it is impossible to completely disprove the existence of god.

2.  I will be a good person, not out of fear but simply because it is the ethical thing to do. If there is a just and loving god, he will forgive me for the minor things, like Atheism, as long as I am a good person (for instance, a just god would rank helping the poor as more important than baptism; one who does not is either unjust or, even more terrifying, a bureaucrat)

3. If I am a good person, and god is unjust and judges me based on technicalities, then I would not worship him(them). I have morals, I have standards: I do not, and will not, worship power, however unilateral.

You know what Oddball, I find that most religious people have not studied atheist ideas of the universe and do not know or understand atheists very well. It is a human trait, not an atheist trait. It is simpler to just condemn those outside your group as ignorant, malicious, or somehow inferior than to get to know them. Religious people often think that atheists have no ethics because they have no fear of hell; Atheists often think that religious people are that way because they are blinded and ignorant.

That is the true problem with stereotyping, actually: A stereotype of someone, no matter what stereotype it is, will prevent you from seeing who they truly are. Instead, you often see only the stereotype.

The problem is, understanding other people is difficult. They can say things that annoy and infuriate you, especially if they are not trying to make an outreach as well. A few weeks ago I realized that it is not just a matter of Us not understanding Them; no, it is often a matter of Us not understanding how They do not understand Us. Once you see the other persons' stereotypes, their flawed misconceptions, you can correct them. The event that really opened my eyes was this:

I was talking with a (very conservative) friend. He asks my positions on Abortion and Capital punishment. I am pro-choice and rather ambivalent towards capital punishment. He mentions that he cannot understand how liberals can be pro-choice and anti-capital punishment at the same time; it seems like hypocrisy to him. He understood how somebody could be pro-life and pro-capital punishment or pro-life and anti-capital punishment or pro-choice and pro-capital punishment, but he didn't understand the fourth viewpoint. I pause, I think, I realize, I understand. Not only had it never occurred to him that Humans may not have souls, may not need souls, it had clearly never occurred to him, as I found out on asking, it had never occurred to him that anybody would believe that humans don't have souls. He had simply assumed that Liberals justified pro-choice beliefs based on a Libertarian and Utilitarian philosophy but switched to pure emotion and compassion with regards to the death penalty. For all his understanding of how pro-choice people believe that abortion is not murder, he did not understand that anybody could believe that abortion was not killing a person.

That is the true communication barrier. Not just us not understanding them, but us not understanding how they don't understand us.

That was a long post. Hmmm. Maybe it would just be easier to yell and shout and assume that all religious people are superstitious idiots who live in caves, instead.



P.S. @Oddball
Quote
I find most people who do not believe in a God or Diety havn't read and understood a Holy book and their teachings, hasn't attended Church, or made connections amoungst the religions.

If your religion relies on atheists to go out of their way to read books they regard as mysticism and fiction, and to do this voluntarily and without prompting, then perhaps you should take a second look at your missionary strategy. We shouldn't have to convince ourselves; you should have to convince us, and you certainly have to put more effort into it than telling me to read the Bible and come back later. Don't be surprised if an atheist hasn't studied your religion; why should we try and convert ourselves?

Also, you'll find that djinn here, as he mentioned just earlier, was a devout christian until recently. I find that a significant percentage of the atheists I know were strongly religious earlier in their lives, but by no means a majority.
Twilight - the movie is just like Schindler's list... You know you're watching a crime against humanity, but it's sort of entertaining.~~Ts4EVER

Offline Moose

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #40 on: 22-04-2010, 03:04:01 »
I'm an atheist. I've read the bible, old and new testament. It strengthened my disbelief in God.

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #41 on: 22-04-2010, 04:04:38 »
I'm an atheist. I've read the bible, old and new testament. It strengthened my disbelief in God.

Same here, I was even made to go to a christian school from 4th to 8th grades

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Offline Pascucci the Whiner

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #42 on: 22-04-2010, 04:04:02 »
Yes people! Make sure we crush all religions like they're doing in China! China's people are in a state of blissful happiness!  ;D

Offline Mr.Deceptive

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #43 on: 22-04-2010, 04:04:44 »
I don't personally get irritated, because those people are wrong. If somebody told me that I had blond hair instead of my brown hair, I would say "what no" because they are wrong. It's the same thing. They are just flat out wrong.

Belief in god is fear in god. You use it as a last resort because you have no other way of dealing with your situation, which is called lack of education/information. In my opinion it is extremely immature.
This is flat out wrong...I can say that too on virtually as much evidence as you have to say I'm wrong. So therefore, no, invalid point.

I find most people who do not believe in a God or Diety havn't read and understood a Holy book and their teachings, hasn't attended Church, or made connections amoungst the religions.

Gah, there are so many points I want to refute I just don't have the time, so a couple quick more.

1.) I disagree with you djinn on your opinion about "So I find many of my Christian friends less people of their word and less reliable as friends than my less or non believing friends". Mainly because I know it to be the opposite of what you said. Also because those who live with a religion have basic principles of virtues and morals...I myself along with many others I know hold true to my word all the time, I strive for honesty and respect, 2 traits which I highly admire.

2.) Seperation of State and Religion lol, hehe ..haha, ...hoho alright enough said about that.




When someone presents an idea that they claim as fact, the presenting party must provide the evidence, not the party receiving the idea. You are pretty backwards.
That would be like me telling you "Mr.Winkle is my god. prove he doesn't exist", and i wrote a book about it and a lot of people believe he is real. Why the FUCK would YOU need to prove me wrong? I would need to prove myself right.
The burden of proof is on the fearful.

This has kind of turned into an argument which I think will escalate to perhaps something more.
You have your ideals and so do I. I am stubborn and so are you.
« Last Edit: 22-04-2010, 04:04:12 by Mr.Deceptive »
There's no difference between being holy and alone

Offline Archimonday

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Re: Proof god exists
« Reply #44 on: 22-04-2010, 04:04:03 »
Personal Theology:

I believe that there are two sides to the Human conscious.

The first is the "God" part of our conscious, which is the side that tells us to do the appropriate things, makes us have character, and is the side we fall back on during hard times, and when we need to find strength.

The second is the "Satan" conscious. It is the side of our brain that sometimes overrules the "God" side, and allows us to make wrong, inappropriate, and horrible decisions. Even allowing us to do things as drastic as kill another human being.

The two work in tandem however, in a sort of balance. Each side of the conscious has its own unique traits that allows it to help us to survive. While our God side can allow us to perform such tasks as diplomacy as a crucial means for our survival, our Satan side allows us to fight, argue, and even kill to ensure that survival.