Author Topic: Cover Fire  (Read 7888 times)

Offline kummitus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 630
    • View Profile
    • CMP Gaming
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #15 on: 06-02-2011, 15:02:31 »
Only way what I see for suppressive fire to work is have huge deviation on all weapons except for snipers and marksman rifles on distance even if aimed thus making it nearly impossible to shoot enemy from 100m away. So that it would be more likely get yourself killed when you try to shoot the enemy with your rifle.
CMP Gaming

Offline Sgt.Radman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 415
    • View Profile
    • Why Should I?
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #16 on: 06-02-2011, 17:02:25 »
The way I see it and as much as I have learned over these 2-3 years of FH, Bren guns (just for exmp.) were fired at tanks to keep the guys inside it from coming near any view holes or ports. Firing MGs at tanks will annoy the driver and will make him at least turn around and stop focusing on friendly AT squads.

About suppressive fire, yes, MGs when fired correctly (from cover and in bursts of several bullets) are quite intimidating.

Offline VonMudra

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 8.248
  • FH2 Betatester/Verdun Team Researcher
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #17 on: 06-02-2011, 19:02:27 »
Yes, I like teasing tanks too with guns.  Usually, it'll end in your quick demise when he fires HE into your face, but more often than not, its enough of a distraction that AT squads can then knock him out.

Offline HappyFunBall

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 428
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #18 on: 09-02-2011, 00:02:53 »
The thing with suppression fire from a machine gun is: it works if you know where the enemy you are suppressing is, it just gives away your position if you don't.

If the enemy you are suppressing has the ability to move to another spot without revealing themselves, (for example, move from one window to another) they will probably kill you. When I am pinned with suppression fire, I always try to creep to a new spot, then aim for the muzzle flash.

The upshot of all this is that delivering suppression fire usually just gets you killed. It would have to be massively ramped up to be effective, and I am not sure that would be a good idea.

Offline Torenico

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.632
  • ¡Viva la Revolución!
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #19 on: 09-02-2011, 03:02:42 »
Suppression fire doesnt not really work in FH2.

Number 1: If i get killed, i'll spawn in 15 Seconds.
Number 2: I can basically take cover behind any material i want, and be safe from any Machinegun/Rifle/Pistol, since bullets wont go trough Walls, for example.
Number 3: I can say "Fuck it", show myself and insta kill the MG42 Gunner, then move on.

Theres little fear of getting killed in FH2, most goes to Losing an important assets such as a Sniper Rifle, Airplane, Tank or something else. If im a simple rifleman, then i have no problem with getting killed.

Possible ways to get Suppresive fire working? Add a longer Spawn Time or a good "Blacked Out" effect of some kind..

But as VM said, i love spraying tanks with a MG to annoy them, sometimes i even manage to kill the Bailing Tanker ;D


Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #20 on: 09-02-2011, 08:02:02 »
Only way to really make suppressive fire work in a game is to add deviation components to the gun while you are suppressed. It is the only thing that would change the experience of being suppressed/not suppressed.

Longer spawn penalty does not help the suppressive fire, as it is a global setting, you will have the same spawntime from being run over by a friendly truck, as from being shot while under suppressive fire, so the players will not make the connection that he must wait longer to spawn because he stuck his head up while under fire.

No blurr, sound or even camera shake will ever make a player "suppressed", he can muscle-memorize himself through all that in no-time, after a while you don't even think about the b/w screen or blur, you still just stick your head up and pixel-frag the MG42 gunner.

This game is from 2005, a time when things like normal maps were new in games (yea, lol), they had a ton of other technicalities to overcome at this time, and the fact that BF2 was released with such high performance as it had (has) is one of the greatest accomplishments in gaming history.
They didn't invest a lot of time developing immersive effects and smoke-and-mirrors back then, they only worked with real/actual features. or game mechanics that allowed players to change the experience for other players. You either kill him, or he kills you. There is not much other interaction beyond that.
We have done what we can with the Tinnitus effect, but beyond this, we can't really make you able to change another players controls or conditions by shooting at him with certain guns.
-just some info- 8)

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #21 on: 09-02-2011, 19:02:15 »
i disagree... The screenshake was actually your idea. AND i must say a fine solution.

Sure you cannot throw off the character's aim, but you CAN cause the screenshake with the explosion effect that is the blur.

What it does, is to reduce visibility enough for players to not be able aim at the suppressor accurately enough while experiencing random twitches left and/ or right that make it hard to place the crosshair where it needs to be.

Also, making a harder-hitting impact sound for bullets will make them quite aware of close-hits making them even more anxious and hence likely to make rash decisions, like firing blindly. The whip sound works for near misses, but the actual hit sound is a different thing

Try these and see. Shouldn't be too hard to add the camera shake I think.


Even now, I am able to at least suppress average players on PHL. There is a clear axis of advance, so all I need to do is prone in an impact crater as low as possible and keep up accurate enough fire, and they would rather flee, hide, than fight.

Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #22 on: 10-02-2011, 21:02:34 »
yea I agree :) with smoke-and-mirrors we can kind of simulate a surrogate suppression. but we will never be able to actually suppress anyone in this game. The reason why can not do that, is because dice didn't intend for BF2 to be that kind of a game. We lack the core mechanics for it, like the deviation affect like you said, or triggering certain animations based on suppression, or changing the audio or manipulate your vision in other ways than just desaturation/blur filter, change your movement or controls, reduce your FoV (tunnelvision), blur out evrything except where the shooter is shooting from, simulate adrenaline rush, make you pass out in fear!... any one of these would be a good tool (except the passing out, I would alt+F4 if that happened), we lack all of them.

Mods have the power of suggestion though, the meta-game that comes with most mods (be it realism, zombies or WW2) is a powerful suggestive "feature" indeed, and Im quite certain people can pretend to be suppressed (maybe in PR, maybe in FH2), almost to the point of actually being a little scared.
But I suspect it is all in their head, and it is not an actual game mechanic. What I believe they are doing, is waiting, for the suppression effect to go away. Throwing in a little role-playing to cover up what the game lacks.

So what it results in almost, is a trading game: bullets for waiting. I shoot you, you wait. You shoot me, I wait.
That works fine as a kind of pacemaker for pacing if you want (lame, yea I know..), a way to slow down the game a bit by making eachother wait. but is it really suppression? You tell me... maybe it is.

One thing though... if you're running... say up Omaha Beach.. would suppression work? Feels like it would need to have a reversed effect if you are running and are out in the open. You wouldn't cuddle up all small and scared then, you would get a super adrenaline rush and run faster and be fearless until you get to cover... anti-suppressed.
I don't know how the game would know this, perhaps raycast around you and if you don't have any cover within X meters, boost your speed up and make your vision more clear/contrasted/tunnel vision.

"Also, making a harder-hitting impact sound for bullets will make them quite aware of close-hits making them even more anxious" < doable, and a good idea  :)

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #23 on: 10-02-2011, 22:02:08 »
Well, the same effect works both ways. Sure you will be getting blurry vision, but if you notice, currently, the blur doesn't last long (a good thing) so it simply disorients, not blinds. Also you get the smacking sound of dirt and the crack of the bullet as we have currently. Then you get the twitches with each near miss.

These work more on the player than his character, and yes, these, in a dash, WILL give you an adrenaline boost, but you might be firing amiss a tad more and slightly disoriented.

And I can imagine thats how some soldiers made their way to the shingles at omaha.

I would say, a tad longer a stamina bar i.e allowing for longer running may be helpful

Offline Galslacht

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #24 on: 14-02-2011, 14:02:53 »
A thing called suppressive fire only works in two mods: Project Reality and Red Orchestra's Darkest hour.

DH has the best implemented suppressive fire, it really pays to fire .30cal or MG42 into positions of the enemy because the sight of the suppressed is being A. distorded and B. Irregular instantaneous sway which makes proper aiming on an MG (1 pop 1 shot 1 kill) impossible, this mimicks the unconcious nerf-twitchings when a bullet lands near to you.

I have always avoided the urban-infantry maps in FH2, I never liked the one shot one kill no sway Darkest Hour Source skillzzzzzz shots. Many of the realistic infantry tactics are useless in FH2.

Offline THeTA0123

  • The north remembers
  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16.842
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #25 on: 14-02-2011, 14:02:23 »
If your hit IRL by a rifle sized bullet, you wont be fighting again (at the time)

either your dead or to wounded.
-i am fairly sure that if they took porn off the internet, there would only be one website left and it would be called bring back the porn "Perry cox, Scrubs.

Offline Galslacht

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #26 on: 14-02-2011, 14:02:50 »
If your hit IRL by a rifle sized bullet, you wont be fighting again (at the time)

either your dead or to wounded.
Duh.
Same in Red Orchestra, but it's too arcady in FH2, it contradicts the realistic elements in FH2.

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #27 on: 14-02-2011, 17:02:31 »
sigh... First, we're not talking about getting hit, we're talking about suppression. I don't believe in a penalty so stiff that in theory people would be afraid to make a mistake. so such things like 30+seconds for spawning, instant death for any hit etc are not used. It makes the gameplay frustrating, compared to what FH2 wants.

According to game theory, this approach of one-shot kill is a gameplay-killer - And yes, FH2 chooses to be a tad more arcade then PR because well... its NOT fricking PR. Yes, its FPS, yes its war, but that's about as far as similarities go.

Back OT, I do agree in the need for twitch, and its imo a doable solution. But there is no need for punitive suppression. The current system works for feedback and disorientation and it serves its purpose. Its NOT supposed to be a form of sunction. A player wont get suppressed by a single bullet like is the case in PR - Like I said, different games

Offline Comrade Roe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Achtung panzer!
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #28 on: 20-02-2011, 20:02:27 »
 I usually find its best that the squad MG lays down covering fire, while his comrades advance, and then his comrades cover him so he can get back with the squad. As a fixed MG, stay crouched, often popping up to look for targets. Another nice tactic for cover fire is SPOTTING. Always helps to spot targets for whoever the heck is laying down fire so you can move  :P.

 Though, I always seem to be hesitant to sniping with an SMG, even if it has a semi auto capability (Which no one seems to use, judging from the many times I've encountered SMG using comrades/enemies.

Offline NTH

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 3.146
    • View Profile
Re: Cover Fire
« Reply #29 on: 21-02-2011, 14:02:39 »
From my experience supressing help but it depends on the map. PhL works rather well. I am litterally supressing people trying to cross the bridge after the third flag with Laffete.

It also works on Fall of Tobruk in the advancing area of the Germans before the first two flags. Germans have some craters and trenches and only a few make the mistake to pop up and try to tkae a shot. On the other maps the area is either to small and littered with nades, think Tunis or is map with tanks, which are hazardous for your health when you try to supress with relocating every 10 seconds.

The question is do your teammates have any clue you are supressing anyone? In BF1942 you could at least request some supressing fire, not that your mates would have a clue what to supress, but it's the thought that counts.

So supressing works in some maps, but is there's no party to followup accept with good teamwork sqauds.


Milton Gault roared, "Roffey, I know bloody well that Jerry knows we are here but you don't need to advertise the fact!"
(From: First in the Field, Gault of the Patricias by Jeffery Williams, page 72.)