Wirbelwind sight problem

[DLFReporter]

...
What you call abuse is the vehicle itself. In RL it was "abuse" also vs aircrafts and infantry, but it still has counterparts and can be easily beaten. So it has to be fully done (and balanced with the maps, for exemple with very long respawn times), or not done at all. Implementing half of it is the worst solution.

Worse then no AA at all? I don't think so, the Wirbel is integral to keeping the Typhoons at bay.
Therein lies the sense of it. It is a pain to try to hit ground targets. (I mean the devs could also implement an inclination lock at 10° above the ground. Why not. Would take out your complaint totally.

Anyways my point still stands: Realism < Gameplay.

Honestly, I think the bigger question, is WHY was the 20mm shrapnel toned down to the point of almost being nonexistent?

The Splash damage was insane and maps like PDH were a pure fragfest. Atm it is quite convenient. The 20mm still is deadly vs planes, but you need skill to kill people on the ground.

[Strat_84]

Anyways my point still stands: Realism < Gameplay.

But WTF did you see a wirbelwind breaks gameplay if it can shoot on ground ?

Did you ever pay attention to the big post I wrote before ? Did you even understand the landscape prevents to see far enough to become the infantry rape machine you're describing, the one that blows everything from the other end of the map ? And this is even more right if the 20mm shell has been weakened (I didn't notice this before).

And what about the Tiger ? It can blow any british tank in one shot and most of then can't shoot back, don't you think it breaks gameplay as well ? What do you think players do when they encounter one, they get raped and loose the map ?

Enough, I give up. I've never met someone with such a narrow mind, it's just useless to keep discussing. Let's just hope you do not represent the FH dev team opinion on this point.  

[VonMudra]

Honestly, I think the bigger question, is WHY was the 20mm shrapnel toned down to the point of almost being nonexistent?

The Splash damage was insane and maps like PDH were a pure fragfest. Atm it is quite convenient. The 20mm still is deadly vs planes, but you need skill to kill people on the ground.

How?  Almost no one touches the quad flak on that map that I've seen.  Also, the 20mm should be INCREDIBLY DEADLY to humans, not this pissass weak weapon that it is now, a MG is more powerful versus infantry then a wirbelwind, which should be the OTHER way around.

[Eat Uranium]

Almost no one touches the quad flak on that map that I've seen.

No one touches it presicely because its piss poor at shredding infantry.

The 20mm was weakened to prevent infantry rapage.  I personally fell that it was weakened too much.

[VonMudra]

Exactly the problem.  Its so bad that people would rather use a rifle against infantry then use a heavy AA weapon that in real life was incredibly deadly.  Its asinine.

[Wilhelm]

I like my vierling on PDH!  

I was one of the main lobbyists in getting the flak damage reduced.  Perhaps the radius or damage can be increased a little, but due to time constraints and such I feel that the new damage system for the 20mm and 40mm flak guns are much better than their 2.15 counterparts.

I honestly don't think that with the BF2 engine the 20mm can be done any true justice.  It is either going to be too powerful or too weak.  Like I have always used as my argument before, the damage they did in 2.15 was so great that if that is how they were IRL then they would have been wonderweapons!  I am sure the main killer from flak guns is shrapnel and not concussive force which IMO cannot be illustrated in the game very well.  IRL, a variety of factors would keep shrapnel in check (dirt mounds, elevation of the target and the trajectory of the shrapnel, trees, etc).  However, the splash damage in BF2 is not so sophisticated to allow these kinds of things from reducing the general power of shrapnel-based projectiles.

Since these weapons have a high rate of fire, you can clearly see the difference in gameplay reasoning as to why they need to be nerfed a bit in comparison to tank HE, grenades, and other such ordinance.

Of course, this is my opinion and how I see it.  

[VonMudra]

The problem is, right now, the splash damage is SO incredibly weak that you basically have to hit your target almost dead on, making it nothing more then a glorified 40 round machine gun with a slow rate of fire.

[DLFReporter]

Anyways my point still stands: Realism < Gameplay.

But WTF did you see a wirbelwind breaks gameplay if it can shoot on ground ?

Did you ever pay attention to the big post I wrote before ? Did you even understand the landscape prevents to see far enough to become the infantry rape machine you're describing, the one that blows everything from the other end of the map ? And this is even more right if the 20mm shell has been weakened (I didn't notice this before).

Sorry but I did read all of your posts and I only referenced the first part of your sentence, that's true and was a mistake by me:

Now let's consider the following facts: there is only one wirbelwind in one map, this map has many slopes and bushes, so that it's still possible to use the aiming sight on ground targets in some circumstances, and it's also impossible to "rape" the whole map because of the bushes, obstacles etc ...

Now to come to the thing with the gameplay breaker. In FH0.7 IMO the Wirbelwind was just used to rape infantry and never fulfilled it's intended role to hunt planes (sorry to the 25% of the people using like intended).
So it has been change in order to prevent the misuse.

Enough, I give up. I've never met someone with such a narrow mind, it's just useless to keep discussing. Let's just hope you do not represent the FH dev team opinion on this point.  

I'm sharing my opinions and trying to argument for the changes and if that makes me narrow-minded then I can't help it.
I just gathered that you have a closer bond with the Wirbelwind since you are so defensive of it, didn't mean to get personal there.

Anyway the 20mm led to scores like 45:1 on PDH while testing and now it is more like 10:1 (granted that now we have some good commanders who like to drop the arty on the sob vierling. ^^) it could be tweak again considering the splash damage, but if it is either all or nothing, when it comes to helping against infantry rape, then I vote for nothing.

Cheers

[Smiles]

Yes Sire! Me almost everytime taking part of the infantry scene, loved being killed by the badass vierling ( bofors sucked, boom boom dead) and was really really suprised by that. Even for gameplay(ok in pdh it would be devastiating)

[luftwaffe.be]

Quote from: VonMudra on 16-09-2009, 00:09:24
Almost no one touches the quad flak on that map that I've seen.
No one touches it presicely because its piss poor at shredding infantry.

The 20mm was weakened to prevent infantry rapage.  I personally fell that it was weakened too much.

I agree. maybe a balance between new and old should be found. The problem is ofcourse that the blast of a 20mm would be relatively small, yet the shrapnel would to the most damage.