Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Bug Reporting => Topic started by: Strat_84 on 14-09-2009, 00:09:48
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I don't know if anyone noticed but the aiming sight doesn't fit with the holes in the armor plates, so that aiming a target on the ground is impossible if it's not on a hill.
Is this an intended feature ?
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it's an AA vehicle, don't kill us grunts with it.
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maybe its intentional? ;)
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That's why I'm asking, but actually it should not.
The wirbelwind was as deadly for infantry as for planes. I can't remember exactly when, but it happened that a single wirbelwind completly exterminated or routed a 800 men platoon in northern France. And then, if the guns can be lowered enough to aim the ground, then it makes sense that the aiming sight also allows to aim ground targets ;)
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Two words: Slopes and approximation ^^
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You can always just shoot at the infantry in non sight mode aiming using the tracers.
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No come on EU that would be to logical. ;D
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You can always just shoot at the infantry in non sight mode aiming using the tracers.
Mmmmhhhhh, I'm sure that's what the crews were told in real life.
- Sir, we can't defend ourselves against infantry, there's a damn armor plate shutting the aiming sight !
- Just fire randomly and see where the shells fall, you dumb NOOB. Got ist mit uns !
;D
More seriously, after having a look at a few wirbelwind pictures I spotted a kind of little "door" in the front turret armor plate, exactly where the aiming sight should be when the vierling is lowered. Guess what is its purpose :P
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Then guess again why the Devs decided to leave it out. ;)
Gameplay is more important than realism in many points.
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Well, if I were told they just forgot this and don't want to fix it because it's too much work, I may surely understand this as a former modder.
But if you tell me it's just because one had a brilliant "balancing" idea (which actually doesn't balance much but ruins the wirbelwind pilot's game), then:
1°) I would answer that he forgot to "balance" the static vierlings spread all over the maps
2°) My esteem for FH, which was for me THE mod aimed at realistic WW2 fights, is clearly going down.
:-X
edit: typos
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1°) I would answer that he forgot to "balance" the static vierlings spread all over the maps
2°) My esteem for FH, which was for me THE mod aimed at realistic WW2 fights, is clearly going down.
:-X
edit: typos
1. About the Vierlings ALL OVER the maps (you can actually find them only at one flag and only on an airfield) are mostly placed so that they can't rape infantry soldiers. And this is due to gameplay aspects!
2. The mod is aiming at as realistic WW2 fights as possible without sacrificing the fun for the side which in RL just got raped by the more powerful opponent.
This has been stated time and time again. When will you notice it strat
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Sorry but I am pointing out is that your statement isn't consistent at all.
You tell me the aiming sight is shut in lowered position on purpose to prevent infantry rapping. Let's admit it.
But it doesn't prevent from shooting ground targets as underlined EU, just makes it painful. The reload time and rate of fire of the vierling still allow a continuous fire on a ground area and this is far enough to rape infantry (even if again it's painful, but it won't refrain a guy that wants his bunch of frags).
So the realism is broken, and the purpose of this digression isn't reached. The only tangible result is frustration for the guy that uses the wirbelwind, expects a great AA / AI weapon, and get a great AA but a "I can shoot infantry but it's nearly like I was cheating" armor.
Now let's consider the following facts: there is only one wirbelwind in one map, this map has many slopes and bushes, so that it's still possible to use the aiming sight on ground targets in some circumstances, and it's also impossible to "rape" the whole map because of the bushes, obstacles etc ...
And even if the wirbelwind is set in the right position, and starts battering infantry in open field, what are you expecting ? This armor has a high profile, and its continuous fire makes it easy to spot. If it isn't outflanked and PIATed, it will quickly get an arty or sherman shot, or even a rocket if it remains too concentrated on ground instead on air targets.
So again, which is the interest of the digression ? none.
Let's also remember that FH 1 has a fully operationnal Ostwind, that is as efficient against infantry as a wirbelwind, and this doesn't unbalance maps at all.
To conclude, in this particular case:
- Realism is ignored
- This doesn't make the game more fun as allied (as a usual Allied player, I would even say it softens a potential challenge)
- This cuts the fun to play as german with that vehicle
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Long text but still you are not consistent as well.
The Wirbelwind can only rape infantry when intentionally stationed on a hillside. Now Totalize has hills and thus it is possible, but you have to go through allot in order to put it to that purpose.
Now you cry realism, but in effect you say because there is a chance of abuse by some the devs should open up the abuse for all?
Come on. I can read that you are unhappy that your toy is less effective, but don't try to argument from there...
To conclude, in this particular case:
- Realism is ignored
Yes, for the sake of gameplay.
- This doesn't make the game more fun as allied (as a usual Allied player, I would even say it softens a potential challenge)
LoL what an argument. Things would be way worse than they are now.
- This cuts the fun to play as german with that vehicle.
As I said above, just because it is your favourite toy does not count.
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Come on. I can read that you are unhappy that your toy is less effective, but don't try to argument from there...
Well, I only played Totalize once on german side, and only because the server didn't allow me to change team. Calling this my favorite toy is quite convenient for you, but you talk without any knowledge of the guy. ::)
The Wirbelwind can only rape infantry when intentionally stationed on a hillside. Now Totalize has hills and thus it is possible, but you have to go through allot in order to put it to that purpose
I'll write it again because you do not seem to understand: shooting ground targets is possible in ANY CASE because the vehicle has the right vertical traverse, so shooting infantry is possible using tracers and spamming a ground area. It is just a bit painful because you can't use the aiming sight.
Now you cry realism, but in effect you say because there is a chance of abuse by some the devs should open up the abuse for all.
What you call abuse is the vehicle itself. In RL it was "abuse" also vs aircrafts and infantry, but it still has counterparts and can be easily beaten. So it has to be fully done (and balanced with the maps, for exemple with very long respawn times), or not done at all. Implementing half of it is the worst solution.
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Honestly, I think the bigger question, is WHY was the 20mm shrapnel toned down to the point of almost being nonexistent?
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...
What you call abuse is the vehicle itself. In RL it was "abuse" also vs aircrafts and infantry, but it still has counterparts and can be easily beaten. So it has to be fully done (and balanced with the maps, for exemple with very long respawn times), or not done at all. Implementing half of it is the worst solution.
Worse then no AA at all? I don't think so, the Wirbel is integral to keeping the Typhoons at bay.
Therein lies the sense of it. It is a pain to try to hit ground targets. (I mean the devs could also implement an inclination lock at 10° above the ground. Why not. Would take out your complaint totally.
Anyways my point still stands: Realism < Gameplay.
Honestly, I think the bigger question, is WHY was the 20mm shrapnel toned down to the point of almost being nonexistent?
The Splash damage was insane and maps like PDH were a pure fragfest. Atm it is quite convenient. The 20mm still is deadly vs planes, but you need skill to kill people on the ground.
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Anyways my point still stands: Realism < Gameplay.
But WTF did you see a wirbelwind breaks gameplay if it can shoot on ground ?
Did you ever pay attention to the big post I wrote before ? Did you even understand the landscape prevents to see far enough to become the infantry rape machine you're describing, the one that blows everything from the other end of the map ? And this is even more right if the 20mm shell has been weakened (I didn't notice this before).
And what about the Tiger ? It can blow any british tank in one shot and most of then can't shoot back, don't you think it breaks gameplay as well ? What do you think players do when they encounter one, they get raped and loose the map ?
Enough, I give up. I've never met someone with such a narrow mind, it's just useless to keep discussing. Let's just hope you do not represent the FH dev team opinion on this point. :-X
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Honestly, I think the bigger question, is WHY was the 20mm shrapnel toned down to the point of almost being nonexistent?
The Splash damage was insane and maps like PDH were a pure fragfest. Atm it is quite convenient. The 20mm still is deadly vs planes, but you need skill to kill people on the ground.
How? Almost no one touches the quad flak on that map that I've seen. Also, the 20mm should be INCREDIBLY DEADLY to humans, not this pissass weak weapon that it is now, a MG is more powerful versus infantry then a wirbelwind, which should be the OTHER way around.
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Almost no one touches the quad flak on that map that I've seen.
No one touches it presicely because its piss poor at shredding infantry.
The 20mm was weakened to prevent infantry rapage. I personally fell that it was weakened too much.
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Exactly the problem. Its so bad that people would rather use a rifle against infantry then use a heavy AA weapon that in real life was incredibly deadly. Its asinine.
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I like my vierling on PDH! :(
I was one of the main lobbyists in getting the flak damage reduced. Perhaps the radius or damage can be increased a little, but due to time constraints and such I feel that the new damage system for the 20mm and 40mm flak guns are much better than their 2.15 counterparts.
I honestly don't think that with the BF2 engine the 20mm can be done any true justice. It is either going to be too powerful or too weak. Like I have always used as my argument before, the damage they did in 2.15 was so great that if that is how they were IRL then they would have been wonderweapons! I am sure the main killer from flak guns is shrapnel and not concussive force which IMO cannot be illustrated in the game very well. IRL, a variety of factors would keep shrapnel in check (dirt mounds, elevation of the target and the trajectory of the shrapnel, trees, etc). However, the splash damage in BF2 is not so sophisticated to allow these kinds of things from reducing the general power of shrapnel-based projectiles.
Since these weapons have a high rate of fire, you can clearly see the difference in gameplay reasoning as to why they need to be nerfed a bit in comparison to tank HE, grenades, and other such ordinance.
Of course, this is my opinion and how I see it. :-\
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The problem is, right now, the splash damage is SO incredibly weak that you basically have to hit your target almost dead on, making it nothing more then a glorified 40 round machine gun with a slow rate of fire.
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Anyways my point still stands: Realism < Gameplay.
But WTF did you see a wirbelwind breaks gameplay if it can shoot on ground ?
Did you ever pay attention to the big post I wrote before ? Did you even understand the landscape prevents to see far enough to become the infantry rape machine you're describing, the one that blows everything from the other end of the map ? And this is even more right if the 20mm shell has been weakened (I didn't notice this before).
Sorry but I did read all of your posts and I only referenced the first part of your sentence, that's true and was a mistake by me:
Now let's consider the following facts: there is only one wirbelwind in one map, this map has many slopes and bushes, so that it's still possible to use the aiming sight on ground targets in some circumstances, and it's also impossible to "rape" the whole map because of the bushes, obstacles etc ...
Now to come to the thing with the gameplay breaker. In FH0.7 IMO the Wirbelwind was just used to rape infantry and never fulfilled it's intended role to hunt planes (sorry to the 25% of the people using like intended).
So it has been change in order to prevent the misuse.
Enough, I give up. I've never met someone with such a narrow mind, it's just useless to keep discussing. Let's just hope you do not represent the FH dev team opinion on this point. :-X
I'm sharing my opinions and trying to argument for the changes and if that makes me narrow-minded then I can't help it.
I just gathered that you have a closer bond with the Wirbelwind since you are so defensive of it, didn't mean to get personal there.
Anyway the 20mm led to scores like 45:1 on PDH while testing and now it is more like 10:1 (granted that now we have some good commanders who like to drop the arty on the sob vierling. ^^) it could be tweak again considering the splash damage, but if it is either all or nothing, when it comes to helping against infantry rape, then I vote for nothing.
Cheers
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Yes Sire! Me almost everytime taking part of the infantry scene, loved being killed by the badass vierling ( bofors sucked, boom boom dead) and was really really suprised by that. Even for gameplay(ok in pdh it would be devastiating)
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Quote from: VonMudra on 16-09-2009, 00:09:24
Almost no one touches the quad flak on that map that I've seen.
No one touches it presicely because its piss poor at shredding infantry.
The 20mm was weakened to prevent infantry rapage. I personally fell that it was weakened too much.
I agree. maybe a balance between new and old should be found. The problem is ofcourse that the blast of a 20mm would be relatively small, yet the shrapnel would to the most damage.