Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Feedback => General => Topic started by: hyperanthropos on 18-04-2012, 17:04:48
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This thread is about certain tanks not getting destroyed by hits that should destroy them in any case. I am not talking about hits from bad angles, but from 90 degrees or similar. Also not on super high ranges, but midranges and even close ranges when talking about the Panzerfäuste.
I am talking about hits from Panzerfäuste or tanks with cannons easily capable of destroying those tanks normaly. For example Panzer 4 H straight on the side armor of a Cromwell or Panzer 4 F2/Tiger on Crusaders. etc.
Vehicles I recognised as being bugged when shooting at them with tanks:
Cruader (only the later version with six 6 pounder)
Cromwell
Afrika Marder
Normandy Marder
Cromwells and Crusaders are bugged as hell since 2.4. they often dont get destroyed by Pak40s and similar cannons. I dont know it probably has something to do with the new angle system, I really like it in general, but with these tanks its horrible.
The Marder are probably coded in a way that shells deal less damage when shooting at the less armored superstructure, because an AT shell could go right through it without dealing much damage, but I think this shouldbe changed, since it would damage the cannon in most cases and at least kill one crew member. And I say this as the one who usually drives the Marder, when getting hit with this things by Shermans or Crusaders/Comwells you get very few damage quite often. (Only less damage so no total hitbug)
Vehicles I recognised as being bugged when shooting them with a Panzerfaust:
M24 Chafee
This thing probably the most annoying to me, Panzerfaust hits dont deal damage against that thing really often. And I mean not when you shot on the sloped front or upper superstructure, but right in the tracks, really often no damage at all.
M4A1 Sherman (The one with the casted hull)
Fighting this thing with a Panzerfaust 30 can be quite frustrating, as we all know the Panzerfaust 30 doesnt kill at the front, which makes no sence as far as I know.
But what really bothers me is that it often doesnt get destroyed when hitting its side armor, often just burnig. I am talking about hits on the regular side armor not on the turret or on extra tracks (This version never has extra tracks). In my opinion killing tanks can be hard enough with a Panzerfaust 30 on maps like Goodwood or Falaise Pocket. Panzerfaust should always kill a Sherman to the front and Panzerschreck too.
And even the Panzerfaust 60 sometimes bounces on the M4A1.
This is based on at approximately 100-200 hours of playing FH 2.4. what I want to say with this is that these are not accidents that happened only once. And yes surely sometimes there are hitbugs and so on, but there are these certain vehicles I recognised for being more bugged than others.
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Everything you said is right and I hope that the devs keep their eyes open for these problems. The Panzerfaust (equal wich version) is kinda luckshot weapon. Sometimes I sneak carefuly behind a tank expecting an easy kill and then I just shot it buring. The excitement of the angle mod and damage system should not be to be unpredictable, but to offer different tactics for different tanks and weapon systems. It is like flanking a Firefly to shot him from the side or rear with a PZIV H from perfect angels and good range. A friend of mine had this bad luck and led him to rage quit. And thb I understand him. It is not a matter of skill in these situations but only luck. And when you have these situations more than one time in a match it is just annoying.
The other things like the OP Crusader (6 Pounder Version) have been mentioned before. The Marder problem can also be expereinced with the Wespe and the Wirbelwind. You hit the weakest spot and it just bounces off (could be acceptable) but penertating such a weak vehicles and not killing them in the same time is just off.
I hope more people give such feedback, since these are some of the few problems I have with this awesome mod. ;)
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A lot of tanks are improved upcoming version. It'll never be perfect unfortunately, which is why HSlan has been running nerfed angled damage mod.
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=17026.0
Most of the hits would likely be due to high angles. What is a high angle? When we first implemented angled damage, we were aware that it could cause some bugs due to messy hitboxes, as the hitboxes weren't made with angled damage in mind. Due to massive amounts of FH2 tanks that exist, we must manually remove small details from their hitboxes tank by tank. We decided to implement it in 2.4 even though nowhere near the majority of tanks had their hitboxes cleaned - in 2.45 a lot more tanks have had their hitboxes cleaned up, including the chaffee.
The marder has a material on its superstructure which is penetrable, so you can kill those behind it without killing the tank. This is removed upcoming patch already. On the Normandy marder, a bit unsure, will doublecheck, also the Crusader and others.
A small detail like a wrench could mean your shot doesn't deal any damage. Its a quite bad bug - the other option is a Cruiser I can destroy a Tiger II frontally by hitting its roof on a small pixel.
The left arrow hitting the side there would not deal any damage, though is a very unlikely hit. The right one would deal full damage. There's maybe a 5% chance not even of hitting such angles as they're barely visible if at all. Other tanks maybe worse though, so thanks and keep up the reports.
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Isn't it actually more realistic that these "small details" could cause deflection of the AP shell/HEAT detonation?
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Isn't it actually more realistic that these "small details" could cause deflection of the AP shell/HEAT detonation?
Yeah I kinda like that, not having the "shoot anywhere in the side to kill enemy" most of games employ.... But some tanks like the Crusader are kinda bugged.
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Well the thing is, that those could affect for performance of HEAT round for example. Specially handheld weapons. On the other hand, it doesn't matter where the 88 round hits in real life, it will tear through.
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Its of course realistic that small objects can sometimes screw you over when you try to panzerfaust someone, but its helluva frustrating and then we get people complaining their fausts dont kill allied tanks with one shot to the side, just because the faust happened to hit on a cosmetic detail such as a piece of rope or a wrench.
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In 2.45 a lot more tanks have had their hitboxes cleaned up, including the chaffee.
The marder has a material on its superstructure which is penetrable, so you can kill those behind it without killing the tank. This is removed upcoming patch already. On the Normandy marder, a bit unsure, will doublecheck, also the Crusader and others.
Thank you very much for those answers, it explains many things about vehicles like the Chaffee.
I am really looking forward to those new hitboxes, I think many problems I described should be solved by this. Glad moderators and devs listen to threats like this one.
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Thanks for the reply Kev. I am quiet excited how this plays out in 2.45.
What also came to my mind is the fact, that you can deal damage on the open hatch of the PZ III on the NA maps. I experienced this several times. An enemy PZ III was hiding behind a dune, but the hatch was the only thing visible. So I shot at it and after some hits I killed the tank. Feels quiet strange to my mind. Just for the case you haven't changed it already ;)
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Thanks for the reply Kev. I am quiet excited how this plays out in 2.45.
What also came to my mind is the fact, that you can deal damage on the open hatch of the PZ III on the NA maps. I experienced this several times. An enemy PZ III was hiding behind a dune, but the hatch was the only thing visible. So I shot at it and after some hits I killed the tank. Feels quiet strange to my mind. Just for the case you haven't changed it already ;)
How is that strange? Isn't that the place where the commander would usually be? Besides it's intended to be the weakspot for AT rifles to shoot at.(The cupola I mean, not the doors of the hatch).
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Thanks for the reply Kev. I am quiet excited how this plays out in 2.45.
What also came to my mind is the fact, that you can deal damage on the open hatch of the PZ III on the NA maps. I experienced this several times. An enemy PZ III was hiding behind a dune, but the hatch was the only thing visible. So I shot at it and after some hits I killed the tank. Feels quiet strange to my mind. Just for the case you haven't changed it already ;)
How is that strange? Isn't that the place where the commander would usually be? Besides it's intended to be the weakspot for AT rifles to shoot at.(The cupola I mean, not the doors of the hatch).
I mean the doors of the hatch. I explained it a bit wrong, sry
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Though I have to wonder why do we even have that awesome hatch opening animation when you jump into the Pz III... Was that added with a purpose in mind, or just as eye-candy?
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Ofcourse It looks good, but I don't see the point about dealing valuable damage when hiting the door of the hatch. It is like completely destroying a car in a racing game, when the mirrors are broken ;D It makes no sense at all
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True I also recognised this. Is it possilbe to change the opening animation so that it doesnt open when the tank spawns (thats when open now right?), but when someone actually uses place 3 (the one looking out of the cuppola). That would make a lot more sence, since I alsways found it strange when a tank is in the mid of the battle with open hatches.
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A lot of tanks are improved upcoming version. It'll never be perfect unfortunately, which is why HSlan has been running nerfed angled damage mod.
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=17026.0
Most of the hits would likely be due to high angles. What is a high angle? When we first implemented angled damage, we were aware that it could cause some bugs due to messy hitboxes, as the hitboxes weren't made with angled damage in mind. Due to massive amounts of FH2 tanks that exist, we must manually remove small details from their hitboxes tank by tank. We decided to implement it in 2.4 even though nowhere near the majority of tanks had their hitboxes cleaned - in 2.45 a lot more tanks have had their hitboxes cleaned up, including the chaffee.
The marder has a material on its superstructure which is penetrable, so you can kill those behind it without killing the tank. This is removed upcoming patch already. On the Normandy marder, a bit unsure, will doublecheck, also the Crusader and others.
A small detail like a wrench could mean your shot doesn't deal any damage. Its a quite bad bug - the other option is a Cruiser I can destroy a Tiger II frontally by hitting its roof on a small pixel.
The left arrow hitting the side there would not deal any damage, though is a very unlikely hit. The right one would deal full damage. There's maybe a 5% chance not even of hitting such angles as they're barely visible if at all. Other tanks maybe worse though, so thanks and keep up the reports.
Very interesting read, so how do you fix these parts if you do (@pic)? I think no one would notice it if you just make that part plane.
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Recently I have experienced strange bounces with the Panthers gun on Shermans. Last week I needed 2 shots to kill a regular M4A3 with it on a range of maybe 50 metres. Also on the very same day my Panthers shot bounced off a M4A2 76mms side on Operation Cobra (this was at an angle however, but still strange).
Yesterday then - and Irish can confirm you that as he was the driver - he needed 4 hits to take out 2 Shermans in a row. Also at an engagement range of 50 metres. The Panther was killed with 2 shots to the front :P.
I noticed this happens a lot in the last weeks. Before that I didn´t have problems with it. All this occured on HSLAN with the nerfed angle system, so I don´t get it.
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An other vehicle i recognized as being bugged or coded in a strage way is the m18 Hellcat. Great vehicle super fast, good gun (even with special ammo) and there is nothing wrong about those features.
But of course it has very weak armor and in tank vs. tank combat this is represented. But when fighting this thing with a Faust 60 and you hit it at the turret it doesnt get destroyed quite often. As I sag dont know if this is code related or a bug.
One might say it is okay since you "just" hit the turret, but since its armor is so weak, especially at the (open!) turret it should get destroyed when hit there.
An exeption to this should be the rear of the turret, because there are counter weights or just storrage, but my observations account for its turret in general.
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An other vehicle i recognized as being bugged or coded in a strage way is the m18 Hellcat. Great vehicle super fast, good gun (even with special ammo) and there is nothing wrong about those features.
But of course it has very weak armor and in tank vs. tank combat this is represented. But when fighting this thing with a Faust 60 and you hit it at the turret it doesnt get destroyed quite often. As I sag dont know if this is code related or a bug.
One might say it is okay since you "just" hit the turret, but since its armor is so weak, especially at the (open!) turret it should get destroyed when hit there.
An exeption to this should be the rear of the turret, because there are counter weights or just storrage, but my observations account for its turret in general.
IIRC that's because HEAT weapons are only effective in enclosed spaces and Hellcat's turret is oppen topped.
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But srsly, that thing has a 50 on it, and if you don't destroy it, you are naked
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Firefly used to be able to take out a Tiger with two hits to the side - now it's rare.
Now, most of the axis armor can one shot an allied tank from the front - but the Tank Killers on the allied side can't do the same against the heavy/thick frontal armor of the axis team.
There's no element of surprise when you get the first shot; because all you're doing is saying - hey shoot me know that you know where I am. Example - Panther can lay waste to any approaching allied armor on Operation Totalize; by staying up on the ridge across the river on the western side; only the M10 can kill it with two shots frontal.
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Firefly used to be able to take out a Tiger with two hits to the side - now it's rare.
Now it kills with one shot to side. What's up with this crusade against axis tanks? Atleast go check how things work before flaming all around this forum about OP axis tanks.
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Had some very strange situations concerning the Cromwell yesterday. My first situation was on Totalize while I was driving the Tiger and standing head to head at a range of 5 - 10 metres. I was penetrating the Cromwell frontaly, but he didn't get killed and I needed a second shot. Later I had almost the same situation while I was driving a PIVH, but in this situation I easily killed the Cromwell. It seems that the damage values of the Tiger's 88 are too low or something similar.
I also fired at a Firefly between the turret and the hull at midrange and the shot went through - but at the end I got killed and not the Firefly. Is the 88 of the Tiger this weak? I have no problem with shots bouncing off at head to head engagement, but I doubt that a Firefly will be able to return fire after getting penetrated by a Tiger.
Last thing I would like to mention is, that the StuG on Villers can easily get killed from a very steap angle (like 15 degree or even less) from the front with a shot to the tracks. The guy who killed me (was a Cromwell) and me were like wtf?
But the problem of the tracks is something that you can find on many other tanks. Tracks are in fact a weak spot in FH2 also to the front. Someone who claims something different needs to play the game a bit more. ;)
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I can report similar situations when fighting against Cromwells, they seem to be wuite buggy. But I dont think it about the 88 of the Tiger, since i recogniced such situations when fighting Cromwells in general no when driving a Tiger.
Same thing about the Crusader - only the late moddel with the sixpounder- the early modells seem to be perfectly okay.
The late version Crusader seems to be a problem in generel, because it can kill every German tank (exept Tiger) in NA to the front with oneshot. The Panzer III get completly useless when those things are around.
And id like to mention that -to my knowledge - there have no tools etc. on there hull, maybe something about the angle system.
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Somewhat related, I put an AP round from my M36 into the front panel of a german halftrack on Meuse and the bastard bounced right off and did no damage, only knocking it back a metre or so. I don't think that's right... It is a 90mm round after all.
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Somewhat related, I put an AP round from my M36 into the front panel of a german halftrack on Meuse and the bastard bounced right off and did no damage, only knocking it back a metre or so. I don't think that's right... It is a 90mm round after all.
This happens with all kind of AP rounds against all kinds of APC's or Jeeps like the Kubel or the Whilly. You hit it and the round just bounces off. But that's an allready mentioned problem and I hope the devs are working on it. Though you are totaly right, that something like this shouldn't happen inreality.
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I know you guys said the shell hit the engine part (if i understood correctly), but when talking about halftrack remember that a shot at the transport cabin doestn destroy halftracks and it shouldt because the (AP) shell would be right through. So a halftrack shouldnt blow up by every hit, everywhere.
But of cousre you re right a shot at the engine part should destroy it immediately.
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Once I was trying kill abandoned Crusader 3 on Supercharge map . He was standing with nose above some sloping , so engine deck was perfect visible . I shot at last three times , because practically two rounds just bounced off or hit detector was visible but no effects ??? Last round was effective but I was hit a rear of turret ...
And one more thing ... many times I was killed or that I was scored , with the round in to the edge of the turret , where round should be bounce off without any effect .
Or not ? ;)
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Do you guys complaining about the "weak" and "ineffective" axis armor use allied armor as often as you use axis armor? I seriously doubt it. Perhaps you should do it first in order to be less subjective about the "buggy" axis armor that sometimes is unable to kill allied armor with one shot. My survival rate from axis armor or AT-weapons is a few percent and it only happens when i get hit on the edges, because i can hear where my tank was hit. Sometimes shells fly close to the side of my turret or scratch it when shot at frontal.
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Nobody complains about weak axis armor. As I stated in the first post those observation are based on many many hours of play time and some (by far not all!) allied vehicles seem to have some serious problems with defliction of shells, especially the Late version Crusader (as on Supercharge) and the Cromwell. As you certainly know those vehicles are very poorly armored and defect perfect hits quite often.
Furthermore it is not only a threat about bugs and unbalanced Allied, vehicles, but also about Axis ones. I wrote something about the various typs of marders which very often dont take damage, because their upper superstrucuture is coded in a way, that rounds often just go through, whereas the vehicle would have taken heavy damage.
So if you recognise false damage behavior on other Axis vehicles feel free to post it here.
So no its just a threat about sensless complaining of some Axisfanboys, I am trying to give some productive feedback. And I undersand the answer of one of the devs (reply number #2) as a kind reassurance on that issue.
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I think hyperanthropos is right. Nobody is making any biased reports - and we just tell what we experience and discover while playing the game over and over again. And the Cromwell is clearly the most bugged vehicle and thatswhy I love to use it :D
Today I shot a burning Cromwell in the side from an almost perfect angle. I dealt damage but didn't kill him. Problem is quiet obvious for me: the Cromwell was moving forward and due to his speed so the shot got deflected. Had several other strange situations on Villers. I first thought that these bugs are dependend on the fired rounds. But I was wrong - simply every german tank - today I tried it with a Panther - causes wierd bugs while shotting on the Cromwell. I shot with the Panther from the front on a good spot between turret and hull, but the shot just bounces off, where in other situations you make an easy kill this way.
I also made some very frustrating experiences with the PIV F1 on Ghazala. I shot a Stuart in the side from aprox. 10 - 15 metres and it wasn't enough to kill that little thing. I know, that short barrel isn't that effective - but it is a freakin' Stuart's side armor and not a heavy armored tank. A tad more damage would be suiting.
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I gotta be honest, I don't really mind bugging tank hits so much. 9 times out of 10 your shot will go in fine and while it's hardly realistic to have some shots just randomly not do damage it does add a variable to the otherwise slightly stale 'whoever sees the other person first' routine of tank combat on most maps. The way in which tank battles are a little crazier is not realistic but the fact that it's not just 1-shot kills every single time is refreshing to me, in a way.
And this is coming from someone who mans a PaK 40 on Supercharge every round of that map and has watched sadly whilst many a round bounce off a Crusader for no apparent reason.
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The problem I have with these bugs is the lag of feedback of the game. If I spotted a tank and try to flank him to get a better angle and then the shot just bounces off when it should hit with 100% - I just feel frustration. You achieved something by using your brain and making a tactical movement - but your success on the end will just be a matter of luck and not skill.
Most important problem with these bug/lucky shots is, that they can decide a whole battle or impotant situations of a battle - and that is something I want to have in my own hands and not let a dice rolling.
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I gotta be honest, I don't really mind bugging tank hits so much. 9 times out of 10 your shot will go in fine and while it's hardly realistic to have some shots just randomly not do damage it does add a variable to the otherwise slightly stale 'whoever sees the other person first' routine of tank combat on most maps. The way in which tank battles are a little crazier is not realistic but the fact that it's not just 1-shot kills every single time is refreshing to me, in a way.
The problem is not that some shots dont kill in the first place, but that there are certain vehicles which have a much higher percentage of not being knocked out when they should be.
If you want to have a kind of random effect it should be implemented on all vehicles, also in this case you would need a very low possibility to damage heavier tanks you usually cant damage.
Right now some vehicles just have a favor because of bugs which might seem as a general randomness, but its not. If a random factor is needed it should be really implemented and not appear as bug.
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So the question here then boils down to: a) keep the angle-mod or b) remove it for the sake of the return of one shot tank kills.
Or are you able to compile a list with the 'bugged' tanks?
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Did you read the first post?
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Sure, but perhaps the list has grown since then.
So go ahead please.
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No new vehicles have come to my list, the only thing that has changed is about the chaffee. It seems my Panzerfaust shots get through it alright. About the M4A1 Sherman though its still the same when fightung it with a Faust.
I think the Panzerfaust 30 should get a damage boost to equal to the Panzerfaust 60. The Panzerfaust 30 doesnt one-shot Shermans to the front which it should because of its penetration.
Though it might be about the Shermans, because when fighting with a Panzerfaust 60 you are mostly facing M4A3 (welded hull), whereas with a Panzerfaust 30 you are mostly facing M4A1 Shermans (casted hull). Dont know if you can penetrate a M4A1 Sherman with a Panzerfaust 60 frontally.
In either way all Pnazerfaust should be able to kill a Sherman to the front with oneshot, exept the Jumbos and the ones with aditional armor (like tracks attatched).
The Tank vs. Tank list stayed the same:
Cromwell
Crusader (late version with 6pdr)
Normandy Marder
Africa Marder
(both have issues with upper superstructure)
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Pzfausts are affected by the wonky penetration/damage values, shot it at a Greyhound, hit it in the turret, didn't kill it. Had to finish it with a zooka. Minutes earlier I had destroyed an M4A1(76)W by shooting its hull from 1 or 2 o'clock.
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It's not crazy chicken aka moorhuhn, you know.
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I find that the Sherman II Late (with the yellow square painted on it) often bounces off Fausts. frustration !
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On Lebisey, I stood near the trenches of "East AT Positions" when a Sherman drove down the hill from the north. I needed 4 (!) shots with the 88mm of the Tiger to the side (!) to kill it. I mean, sloped/angled armour okay, but there are limits...
On the same map, I shot a sherman on its rear left side (last 3rd of the chassis) with a Panzerschreck and it only burned. There were no applied tracks that could have made the projectile "bounce" off. Is this weakening of the Panzerschreck not a little too much?
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On the same map, I shot a sherman on its rear left side (last 3rd of the chassis) with a Panzerschreck and it only burned. There were no applied tracks that could have made the projectile "bounce" off. Is this weakening of the Panzerschreck not a little too much?
Yep, yep the whole hipe around the Panzerschrekc in this forum isnt really represented in the game. At least in 2.4 you couldnt kill a Sherman to the front and those icidents you describe make it even worse. I guess it hasnt been changed much in 2.45.
Right now I would always chose a Panzerfaust 60 over a Schreck not even speaking about the Pnazerfaust 100.
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I played on WaW with high ping (around 180ms) and noticed that some shots get lost on the way from Europe to America. It is frustrating but it could be an explanation why sometimes the hits do not count. Only things that can be reproduced should be tanken into account. Things that happen accidentally or from time to time may have other causes than a software bug. So if something strange happens to you in game try to reproduce it by testing on an empty map. If it still happens then it may be a bug if not it may have something to do with the online connection.
A week ago somebody tried to kill my sherman iv shooting faust at front armor and after 2 shots i had only 1 red bar. I hope he won't complain here that he didn't manage to kill my tank.
Question about Panzer V: Why is his rear armor so thick that it cannot be penetrated by 75mm APCBC? Is there no weak spot at his rear? If not why?
I played Sidi Bou Zid with a 100ms ping and fired twice at the tigers back from about 250 m and he didn't bother because he didn't receive any damage. I could see the impact dot between the two tubes at his back and the tiger shaking each time.
I found this wikipedia quote, but I don't know if it is correct:
"The British 17-pounder as used on the Sherman Firefly, firing its normal APCBC ammunition, could penetrate the front out to 1000 m." here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I#Gun_and_armour_performance