FH2 Teamwork theory

[Malsa]

FH2 is an evolution of FH1

Yes! There are many things we couldn't do in FH1 because of engine limitations, that have become possible when working on BF2. There are many FH2-features that could have been in FH1 if we only would have had the possibility to add them.
My view on this is that there is an "FH concept" that us devs try to realise as best as possible on the engine we are working with.

[HappyFunBall]

I just want to throw this out there:

I do not use VOIP because I can not get BF2 to recognize my microphone. My mike works fine with every other program and application, but not BF2. I have spent hours on this with no result.

I may not be the only one out there with this problem.

[Rustysteel]

You're not HappyFunball, spent several hours myself trying to get BF2 to recoginse my damn mic, there's a couple of reasons it might not be working for you. Is it a usb mic? If it is I think you're pretty much buggered I've seen a alot of threads about usb mics not working with BF2 not sure if there is a solution for that.

My problem was my OS, I have vista and the mic was muted in the speaker properties section by default(dont know if it's vista or BF2 doing this). Once I found it and unmuted it BF2 worked fine with no problems hope that helps.

[Excavus]

My USB Mic works fine with BF2. Make sure you turn the VOIP recognition volume to 0.

[Rustysteel]

I stand corrected  That's good to know if I need a new headset in the future.

[Malsa]

Is there no one who thinks that a voice command system that is easier to use but also has more depth could be very beneficial for teamplay and ingame communication?
Let's face it, everyone doesn't and everyone can't use VOIP even though it's a great tool. I also think that VOIP interferes with general immersion because people just don't sound like "real" soldiers.

[Rustysteel]

I think it would be better if the voice command system would be laid out in a radial pattern rather than blocks in rows. It would make finding particular commands a lot easier and faster, also I think 'I need back up' and 'requesting a pickup' should be in the main commo menu and not the squad one.

[Kelmola]

Make sure you turn the VOIP recognition volume to 0.

Ah-ha! This might be the reason why my mic technically works but my voice is "breaking up" and Irish and Flippy tell me to shut up, because previously the threshold was set to 10.

As for teamwork, IRISHFORCE > everything, as was again proved tonight on Bastogne, where our overlord led our squad to storm both of the city flags single-handedly, winning the map for us.

But seriously, VOIP improves teamplay immensely, but lacking that, SL that actually gives commands motivates people to follow them. Expecting people to spontaneously follow is a bit too much even on hslan or FHGN's. Also, if you "know" (ie. recognize the nick, remember them from the forum or have played previously with) the people of your fireteam the motivation goes up, at least for me.

[sheikyerbouti]

 With this latest release, I have not had any concerns with teamwork at all. My squads fill up almost instantaneously and if someone is too much of a lone wolf'er, I just kick them out and make room for someone new.

 My only issue has been the constant defence/ explanation of why this game plays out the way it does. Mind you, ths happens with every release, so it does become second nature after a while.

[Archimonday]

All ya gotta do is make a VOIP ONLY squad, and kick anybody without a microphone, or anybody whos a smack tard out, and enjoy the real squad members that join up.

Ultimately though, stressing the need for teamwork in trailers, manuals, and other publications about the mod would also be a start to getting people into the "work together" mind set, it should be plastered over every inch of the website, forum, and in-game on walls as posters and other stuff, all emphasizing teamwork.

[Schneider]

I really prefer playing in squads with VOIP, though I usually join german ones. But I don't have the feeling that the lack of VOIP really leads to problems, teamplay-wise.
And honestly, I don't really get the point of the discussion, as there is no way to make those who ignore VOIP use it. People either will or won't, I doubt a lot of people will be convinced to do so by this discussion who haven't done it before.

[Natty]

You guys might wanna structure up your discussions. There are two totally separate aspected here, which you seem to mix up

1. Player behaviour
2. Game behaviour

1. is VoIP, it's what players do with the game, it's server rules and what is generally consider "OK" or not. We (devs) don't control this. We can never make you think TK:ing is OK even if we try, and we can never design maps or the mod hoping that you will chat with each other via voIP or TS or Ventrilo.

2. Is what we can do, how we design maps, how we design vehicles, how you spawn and how you can help eachother ingame. If a mapper is amateurish, he can make teamplay fail the second the round starts, by placing spawnpoints and vehicles wrong, so players run to the transports and drive them away alone. This is just one of hundreds of examples how you can design-in teamplay.

What I tried to explain to Afterdune some page back, is that this is what will really create natural and fluid game play (2.) not chatting in Voip or texting eachother. Why is it better for teamplay? Because it is designed, not just randomly occuring because players happened to have a headset or Teamspeak. Archi's naive dream about "enlightening" people to join the glorius "teamplayism" will not work. Players do what they can do, which gives them easy fun. If we design that to be teamplay behaviour, they will do it.

Sure the two together can work nicely, but good design should make you teamplay without any 3rd party communication

[AfterDune]

What I tried to explain to Afterdune some page back, is that this is what will really create natural and fluid game play (2.) not chatting in Voip or texting eachother. Why is it better for teamplay? Because it is designed, not just randomly occuring because players happened to have a headset or Teamspeak. Archi's naive dream about "enlightening" people to join the glorius "teamplayism" will not work. Players do what they can do, which gives them easy fun. If we design that to be teamplay behaviour, they will do it.

Sure the two together can work nicely, but good design should make you teamplay without any 3rd party communication

Sigh. I wasn't going to comment on this, but the way you put things makes it sound as if I'm wrong and don't get what you're saying. I stated that VOIP can improve communication which can result in better teamwork. Also that VOIP (for a lot of players) gives you another experience, on a different level, which text-chat or whatever level design you have could never provide.

FH2's map design forces players to take certain routes. This design gives you "accidental teamwork", since you're all moving the same way and fire when you see enemies, therefor providing suppressive fire and cover for other players. It's accidental teamwork, as you just happen to be on the same spot by accident, not because you worked together.

We're talking about different things here. The accidental teamwork built in by the level designer, and people actually working together, having a certain plan and communicate with each other what they're going to do, what kits they're going to take and how they move up - or stay put. VOIP can help with voluntary teamwork, since it's so easy and fast to communicate with each other. Of course VOIP is limited to your squad, so for the rest you can use text-chat and/or a commander. Or better yet, use Mumble and be able to talk to everyone within x meters from you. But that's a third party tool.

And the in-game VOIP is NOT a third party tool, it's all part of the game, just like the map, just like textchat.

To close it off, some final words: level design can help teamwork to a certain level, but the accidental "being together" should not be confused with real teamwork. VOIP can help improve communication. It does not automatically provide teamwork, but can certainly be a great help to get some on-purpose teamwork going on.

[Natty]

This makes me wonder if you know what the purpose of design is.
It is to create the experience. Not create the possibility for it to happen.

It isn't "accidental" at all, it is designed. We create those "restricted" areas because we know how players behave. It is because we make those passages, that teamwork arises. So take Hurtgen forest as example, do you think it is an "accident" that those lanes are designed as they are? No it isn't, it's a well planned and more importantly, well executed design.

It's when the mapper have no clear design and just drops some controlpoints where he thinks it is fun to build one, that the teamwork - the whole game play - is "accidental".
We have this too in the mod, dont get me wrong here, Fh2 lacks in design on a monumental level, alot of the game play is purely accidental, or coincidental to be more exact, and many maps are knock-knock-on-wood-hope-it-works every time they come up on a server. Sometimes they work, sometimes not.
My point from a designer-point-of-view, is that it is our job to design Fun, Excitement and Teamwork, not the players. If we dont work hard to make sure those things happen on the maps, it's pure amateurish to hope that some players will gang up and go "hey guys, this kinda sucks, but it will be more fun if we run together and talk to eachother all the time, that way we can block out the fact that this game doesnt provide any experience itself"

So sure, chatting and VoIP:ing surely can save some boring game rounds, or make fun game rounds even more fun, but it's a "post-experience" function - an add-on - not part of the core experience. Because we cant guarantee players will use, we need to build in teamplay moments by design. (And yes; we have a long way to go there as well in FH2)

I would welcome suggestions on how to create more teamwork by design, not by rules (i.e. join squad or kick, use Voip or kick etc)

PS; this is a teamwork theory thread, I havent stated exactly how to improve teamwork, Im just stating my opinion on how to relate to it.

[hitm4k3r]

I would welcome suggestions on how to create more teamwork by design, not by rules (i.e. join squad or kick, use Voip or kick etc)

PS; this is a teamwork theory thread, I havent stated exactly how to improve teamwork, Im just stating my opinion on how to relate to it.

A simple solition would be to make the commrose more useful. It has been suggested many times before, I think, but it is really the only thing, that is missing in the mod, to my mind.