Author Topic: FH2 Teamwork theory  (Read 14911 times)

Offline sn00x

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #30 on: 18-07-2011, 20:07:48 »
People do whatever the F*ck they want, dosnt matter if they are in a squad or team or whatever, or getting commands from voip/commorose, i have tried countless times to tell my squad what to do, or to tell a squad where to go (being commander ofc) because i have the command map up all the time and can MONITOR the battle, people dont play around with their minmap open all the time, tuhs CANT monitor the battle (respons to Natty saying that commander can see exactly the same as a normal player and are useless), No they do whatever the F THEY want, nothing else.. mindless zombies who wants stats.. if a server EVER HAD THE BALLS!!!! to have a rule like a PR server telling people to be in squads and do the teamwork or GTFO the server. then it might actually happen.

Offline Dago Red

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #31 on: 18-07-2011, 20:07:32 »
@Dago Red, I dont see any trolls here.

Not here, on the servers.


I wonder what you think of vBF2, Dago Red. If you like that gameplay, I understand why FH2 or PR isn't your cup of tea.

You missed my point entirely, but I forgive you since we don't know each other.  ;)
I have been playing FH since it's inception (well, since .5).  I have never played BF2 in my life.   I only bought it once FH2 was released, to play the latest incarnation of FH.

I have been staff on the WOLF community for a lifetime now.  We used to run a PR server along with our multiple FH servers and once FH2 was released, that too.  There are good things about PR, they just shouldn't all be implemented into Forgotten Hope.

There is a curious thing about this PR-FH rivalry.  We don't get guys in FH2 servers from Battlefield Pirates or First Strike, attacking the mod. We don't get players mentioning any other mod in chat when they launch tirades about it.... they are always from PR.  It got so bad an admin created a special watch list thread about it, and repeat offenders, whether they changed their nick or not, were eventually banned by hash and IP. I guess that says something about the similarity of the mods in some ways. They are close enough to be able to make comparisons and contrasts.

Did you ever play FH1?  It was one of the most successful mods in modding history ... because it was fun as hell.  FH2 has removed the punishing supression effects that on release drove away FH1 players in hordes. They also added back in jeeps and kubels and fun, fast ways of getting around a map.  Things have moved back to center in many ways, although removing crosshairs is an example of another step away from the easy fun of FH1.

I have not played enough to decide if it's good or not, but as a rifleman, I suspect it will greatly handicap me even further in close quarters than I already was against other small arms. It's this kind of change that may seem popular among the hardcore modding community, but it is NOT popular among new and potential players.   All of my friends used to play FH1. None of them now play FH2, for these reasons. Maybe it's because we are all old men in our 30's now, but some people want to have a nice, fun escape in their realism mods, not steep, punishing learning curves at every turn.
« Last Edit: 18-07-2011, 20:07:49 by Dago Red »

Offline LHeureux

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #32 on: 18-07-2011, 21:07:39 »
@Dago Red, I dont see any trolls here.

Not here, on the servers.


I wonder what you think of vBF2, Dago Red. If you like that gameplay, I understand why FH2 or PR isn't your cup of tea.

You missed my point entirely, but I forgive you since we don't know each other.  ;)
I have been playing FH since it's inception (well, since .5).  I have never played BF2 in my life.   I only bought it once FH2 was released, to play the latest incarnation of FH.

I have been staff on the WOLF community for a lifetime now.  We used to run a PR server along with our multiple FH servers and once FH2 was released, that too.  There are good things about PR, they just shouldn't all be implemented into Forgotten Hope.

There is a curious thing about this PR-FH rivalry.  We don't get guys in FH2 servers from Battlefield Pirates or First Strike, attacking the mod. We don't get players mentioning any other mod in chat when they launch tirades about it.... they are always from PR.  It got so bad an admin created a special watch list thread about it, and repeat offenders, whether they changed their nick or not, were eventually banned by hash and IP. I guess that says something about the similarity of the mods in some ways. They are close enough to be able to make comparisons and contrasts.

Did you ever play FH1?  It was one of the most successful mods in modding history ... because it was fun as hell.  FH2 has removed the punishing supression effects that on release drove away FH1 players in hordes. They also added back in jeeps and kubels and fun, fast ways of getting around a map.  Things have moved back to center in many ways, although removing crosshairs is an example of another step away from the easy fun of FH1.

I have not played enough to decide if it's good or not, but as a rifleman, I suspect it will greatly handicap me even further in close quarters than I already was against other small arms. It's this kind of change that may seem popular among the hardcore modding community, but it is NOT popular among new and potential players.   All of my friends used to play FH1. None of them now play FH2, for these reasons. Maybe it's because we are all old men in our 30's now, but some people want to have a nice, fun escape in their realism mods, not steep, punishing learning curves at every turn.
You should know that today, people when playing war games, like realism. The only non-realism war games that are not thumbed down are games like Gears of War or Unreal Tournament, etc, because they are not set for realism as those things/universe does not exist. Todays players when playing a WW2 game or modern warfare game wants realism. MW1 and MW2 are not realistic of course, that's why so many people say sh*t about it, "Haha it's so stupid, in MW2 you can run around with a Javelin and shoot infantry".

Guess why BF3 gets so popular, go in the comments section of one of it's trailer, everybody talk about how it's more realistic than this "MW3 crap". When playing a war game, more and more people want a nice ambience, like if they were fighting the war and seeing kubels driving around like some random Unreal Tournament game isn't realist and does not makes you feel like if you were in a real WW2 battle. Old games were not realistic and people played them, you say you are in the 30s, so you must have played those games. But TODAY's players enjoy more realistic and real ambience than those Medal of Honor : Allied Assault's ambient sounds.
Hey, huge ass .gif signatures are totally unnecessary and obnoxious. Not these anymore, thankyouverymany kkbyethx love you, all the homo. -Flippy

Offline Natty

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #33 on: 18-07-2011, 22:07:29 »
Thanks for taking things so seriously. It's comments like that that make people not like you a lot, Natty. No offense, but was it really needed to belittle my post?
It was intended to the general notion that players create the experience themselves, not your post. And it is indeed, an adorable notion,  but not how it actually works.
Players like a certain amount of freedom, as which rock to take cover behind and which opening to use. But mostly the map design is deciding for them, many times without them knowing about it.
As an example; if you looked at player movement heatmaps over huge open maps like El Alamein bf42, you'd see that even with this almost 100%ish "freedom" they still stick to the same routes and use the same ways of getting the flags.
It's patterned behaviour, and it happens in all games after a few years of game play.
Why do the exact same thing every round? I don't get what's to like about that. Why would anyone design a map so it's played the same way every time?
The answer is in the question, kind of, design is about deciding. You create a map and you decide what the experience should be. Take maps like Pointe du hoc, Hurtgen, Falaise pocket, Ramelle, PeB, Tunis etc.. We have many of these maps. They don't allow you to just run wherever you want a create a "dynamic" gameplay. It's meatgrinding action, the core of this mod. The mapper has taken ballsy decision and given you a limited area on which you are allowed to move. The same things (more or less) happen each round because that is the intended design. And I dont mean players run the exact same path every time, but more or less, and splitted out on 1,000 rounds, you wouldnt be able to see any difference in what happens in those maps. That's clear design, as opposed to letting players freely decide the experience, as they can't do that, they aren't designers.
Funnily, if you would take a map like El Alamein bf42 or perhaps Totalize in Fh2 and apply a heatmap pathing overlay to it, then re-design the maps so players cant move except on the "beaten tracks", most of them wouldn't care in-game. Freedom is there to assure players that "you know, you can go there instead if you really want to" but they don't do that, they stick to the best routes that gives them most fun. BC2 is a great example of where designers looked at this and decided "heck, just create the map so those unused freedom "open" areas are blocked off (by water or mountains mostly) and concentrate the action towards the objectives". And it worked perfectly. Also, players like that, because it means they have a clear challenge ahead of them that they can look at and go "yea I can do this!" whereas in maps with no clear objectives and too much freedom, they have no clear challenge to look at, and therefor also no predictable reward.

Personally, I like a bit of both, but fact is, every time Im bored or get disconnected from the game in FH2 (where I lose immersion) is when I have no clear goal or objective, when the map isn't telling me what to do, or why. Example is Cobra. What do you do on that map as American once the farm and watermill is taken? And why? the experience just ends before your eyes. Same thing happens on other maps as well. Freedom as game play killer.
« Last Edit: 18-07-2011, 22:07:46 by Natty »

Offline Musti

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #34 on: 18-07-2011, 22:07:58 »
Teamwork in FH 2 eh?
Ok let me put it like this.
VOIP.
Teamplaying means working together, helping each other right?
So we can have a squad that is teamplaying even without VOIP. Of course communication will make that squad a lot better fighting force, they can coordinate better, faster, etc. but that doesn't mean squad not using VOIP is not teamplaying.

Teamplay on Team-level
Its Impossible to achieve on public servers (I mean to achieve 100% teamplay on team-level) you can only get that in tournaments and such, with chain of commands etc. (thats probably what PR players would want.Strict team-play not to say "forced"). Just because bunch of people is attacking the same flag doesn't mean they are working together (they won't cover each other, lay down smoke, or generally speaking "work together" etc.), you don't need communication to think "ok he's checking the room on the right, so I'll better check the room on the left!". Sometimes you get that, sometimes you won't.
Sometimes people are just selfish like if you ask in team chat "can anyone spot me that tank please" or "guys wait i'll lay down some smoke" they just won't bother with answering. No server rule will force them to do that, they just have to want to do that.Its all with the people really, not map desing, not using VOIP, not sitting in squads.
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Offline AfterDune

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #35 on: 18-07-2011, 22:07:07 »
You missed my point entirely, but I forgive you since we don't know each other.  ;)
I have been playing FH since it's inception (well, since .5).  I have never played BF2 in my life.   I only bought it once FH2 was released, to play the latest incarnation of FH.

etc.
Sorry I misunderstood.

I'm afraid dealing with a large playerbase also means dealing with more people that are very much in love with a specific mod, and can sometimes overreact to things. I'm putting it somewhat safe perhaps, because FH2 in fact has the same sort of playerbase. I don't mean that in a bad way at all, most of us have a great love for the mod we follow, support and have been doing so for a couple of years. And nobody "from the outside" will try to destroy that. All is fine, but what I don't understand is why people would slag off the other mod. Luckily the majority of players embrace the other mod, or simply don't bother with it if it's not their cup of tea. Most of the times it's only a handful of players that... don't know when to say nothing at all ;).

Offline AfterDune

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #36 on: 18-07-2011, 23:07:31 »
...
I understand where the idea is coming from, but if you ask me, that's where many games these days go wrong - in my opinion. But I'm afraid this will be and endless discussion. I've said what I wanted to say, so I'll step out of that one :).

Offline [F|H]Uffeh_SWE

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #37 on: 19-07-2011, 15:07:48 »
There is little teamwork because the maps are so restricted (or "designed"). The maps are so restricted because there is no teamwork. '\r'

Offline 4Edge

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #38 on: 19-07-2011, 16:07:29 »
I just want to add that it could be a lot of the time that people don't use VOIP in FH2 (at least in the game) is because their mics don't work in FH2. I know mine doesn't because for some reason BF2 doesn't see my usb mic at all. Otherwise I would be using it.

+1
I have just this very problem also and I've tried to fix it many times..

I prefer teamwork over rambo style any day.  But with mic problems I can only hear squad chat, but cant be heard.  I just live with it.  I'm sure quite a lot of people have the same problem.

Having said that, I'm happy to follow orders and the best times have been when the team is working together using whatever communication as appropriate (comm rose/speech/squad and object map).

One point that PR is quite clear in is that it expects ALL players to use VOIP of some kind and that's fair enough,  but I shy away from PR because of this requirement (add to the fact I dont really like playing with head phones on anyway).   

In FH2 we have a more laid back approach to voip which to me is a good at retaining the casual gamer.

One thing that I find detracts from the fun of the game is a SL who gets all heated up (verbally or VOIP) when the team aren't repsonding immediately to his requests.  To be honest if I want to be shouted at or berated for not doing what I'm told I'll stay at work! ;) - this is supposed to be fun.  Thankfully it's quite rare when that happens and most of the chat is fun and lighthearted.

I think with the FH2 mod, they've struck the right balance,  and if the designers keep churning out maps that favour team play, by a process of evolution we will see more team play orinetated players and rounds.


Offline General_Henry

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #39 on: 19-07-2011, 17:07:37 »
VOIP is important, but I am reluctant to speak up because there are many people in my home and I don't want to disturb them.

I can't remember how many times I want to report enemy sighting to my squad mates but got killed when typing. I am often the first to spot an enemy flanking attack (the desert fox has a strong sense...) but not only I myself failed to fend them off I can't warn my squad members effectively.

but that is just how you execute a teamwork effectively, it has nothing to do with whether you try to execute a teamwork or not, teamwork is not motivated by simply being able to speak with the other guys...

personally I observe a great amount of teamwork on the 128 server, we have squads that never communicate with each other, yet teamwork could be achieved.



1. the secret is that, to have teamwork, you need to blob players together - that means maps could not be too big (so everyone scatters) or having like 20 trucks at main.

important: Squad leaders help blobbing players by providing a spawn point.
(note: however I am against the limitless squad leader system, it change the game in a bad manner)

solution: 128 players solve this because maps get crowded.


2. another thing is that, there needs to be a clear objective of game play flow, in many maps there is no clear objectives and they are obviously much more chaotic and no teamwork. While in push maps generally people know what to do where to go. This way tanks would move along with infantry and support them, not to hide behind that rock sniping enemy tanks. I observe many games in public failed because the tanks just fight their own battle ignoring the infantryman on their team.

example: There is a reason why Mount Olympus is such a fail in public as infantry tends to move for castle while tanks tends to move for monastery. I really want to shout to those tankers, "GO PLAY WOT".

example: In Operation Luttich people run from this flag to that flag, from that flag to this flag, endlessly. Cap one, lose one, cap one, lose one, people just love to move to next flag and cap it instead of sitting and wait for enemy to come.
If you have read my "FH2 chaotic theory thread" (search for it) I think you'll agree on my formula to calculate whether a map would have more teamplay or less teamplay.

example: Alam Halfa is a great map because the flow is perfectly reasonable to even a new player. The frontlines is clearly there, and without some coordination you could not push to the next flag or farm kills.

solution: push! but unfortunately not every map could afford the kind of push we are having now. Btw, I quite liked the Hurtgen Forest style of push that could be extended to some maps I'd imagine.

theoretical solution: maybe there could be maps where flags could be neutralized by a flanking attack but not capped, to simulate the cutting off enemy effect. This also minimize the impact of a first-minute jeep rush ignoring all those defensive perimeters that the mapper placed.

theoretical example: on Gazala you cannot cap beyond knightsbridge as germans if you don't hold knightsbridge. Or Mosque of Mersa Matruh if you don't capture the perimeter flags.

(I want to make a new thread about this btw)

solution: 128 players solve this because maps get crowded.


If a map contains this two, it should play very fine even in the public.

Offline Slayer

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #40 on: 19-07-2011, 18:07:31 »
It is nice that you offer 128 players as a solution, but it won't see the light of day until:

1) the code which is used now gets released publicly
2) someone else stumbles upon the code and releases it

Offline General_Henry

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #41 on: 19-07-2011, 18:07:16 »
It is nice that you offer 128 players as a solution, but it won't see the light of day until:

1) the code which is used now gets released publicly
2) someone else stumbles upon the code and releases it

128 is kind of a "patch" thing, it is not a developer-side solution.

Offline Dago Red

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #42 on: 19-07-2011, 20:07:59 »

You should know that today, people when playing war games, like realism.
You and I like realism.  And others too, but the average joe and jill prefer fun gameplay over stark realism. Realism may factor with them but it's not the number 1 priority, it's not even number 2.

Exhibit A: Forgotten Hope had more players than you could possibly count. WOLF alone, had  5,000 members, most of which played FH1 at least on occasion.  Now we have more like 200 playing FH2, total.

People's wives and girlfriends played FH1.  Rarely was there a week without female voices on our TS.  FH1 was a realism mod, but it was sill easy to pick up and play by the casual gamer. 

FH2 is not like that.

I like more realism, because I am part of this hardcore subculture of gamers that play mods for aging game engines. The vast, vast, vast majority of people are not with us.  This is why FH2's player base is so much smaller than FH1's.

FH2 may make it's current, hardcore base, happier than FH1 did.  But everyone would be wise to remember that the rest of the world likes a little easier time in their games.  Let me emphasize the word game. IN fact, we still have a number of dedicated FH1 players -- they would rather play a game that's older than their kids (and looks like it!) than play the newer FH2, because they have more fun there.


Understand, as a super administrator for WOLF, for all these long years, I have a different perspective on the game that is more than my own personal desires.... setting aside my own interests for longer, more punishing firefights and greater realism, because I see our community dwindling, and fewer people returning to play FH2.  I'd rather have all those friend back and a slightly less realistic game.  Then indulge in all my realism whims and have only a few people to play it with.


But TODAY's players enjoy more realistic and real ambience than those Medal of Honor : Allied Assault's ambient sounds.

Ambience is one thing, no one would argue with greater ambience.  Hurtgn Forest is awesome for that, and currently my favorite map. Just as Totdenbruch was before it.

But difficulty and limitations on what you can do to have fun are different. In FH1 you could get in the cargo hold of a plane toward the front, bail out over a destroyer, help bombard the beach with it, then take an LCV to the shore, commandeer an enemy vehicle and run over Yossarian on the other team while your buddy dropped explosives out of the passenger side door blowing up everything in your wake.  Was that realistic?  No.  Was it fun and made for people to come back night after night for more, including everyone aged 16 to 60, guys and girls, all laughing and having the best time of their lives?  YES.

Offline Slayer

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #43 on: 19-07-2011, 20:07:35 »
Dago Red, although it is really nice to read how much fun you had in FH1 (and believe me, I had great fun in FH1 too), but I think you are overlooking two things when stating that less fun means less players for FH2:

1) A lot of gamers who are in their 30s now, have quit gaming totally or have lowered their activity dramatically (usually due to having kids).
2) While FH1 was the "realistic" version of BF1942, FH2 is a total conversion mod, of which the "mothergame" has nothing to do with WWII. And together with the long time it took for FH2 to release 2.0, this made a lot of people disappear too.

Offline Rustysteel

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Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #44 on: 19-07-2011, 22:07:40 »
I played FH1 a lot too but I guess I just see things differently to dago red. For me FH2 is an evolution of FH1 I can see things in it from the original mod and it always seemed logical to me that FH2 would play the way it does and I love it.