Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => General Discussion => Topic started by: Adûnâi on 07-08-2017, 21:08:07
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There are two proper air war maps in FH2, namely, CMP Battle of Britain and CMP Bombing the Reich. By that I mean they are completely centred around aerial warfare where one side's planes come to bomb the enemy's targets, and the enemy fighters get off the airfields to challenge them, and face the escort fighters, and that's all accompanied by the tracer rounds from the ground (and even sea-based!) anti-air guns!
Why are such maps so rare and seemingly unpopular? Do people hate flying? Does it become boring too fast? Are they imbalanced in favour of some particular side?
After all, I can't even name a computer game that captures this fantasy! The closest is War Thunder, but it can't be compared with its pitiful 24 or 32 player maps! And with its disgusting 3d person view. FH2 is 1st person and it can support 80, 90, even 100 people on the server! It's incontestable, yet these maps barely see play! Why?
Some epic moments from BoB (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5cHQoZowvY&t=3m) and BtR (FH1) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9A1FBrvLXE&t=6m). And the tracer rounds going into the night sky (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpaZIy3a4D4&t=3m15s)!
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I don't think these maps are unpopular. They just don't come up that often on a server. 762 runs all maps plus CMP. I think FH2 has around 30+ and CMP the same or more (I don't feel like counting). Just low chances of them coming up whenever you play.
When they actually do pop up I feel like people really enjoy them. I, personally, really enjoy them cause it lets me fly without having to camp for a plane and the gameplay is fun for 30-40 min. Also, I'm not that good at flying so it gives me a better chance of shooting down planes without the anxiety of using such an important vehicle. Idk how other people feel (people who don't like flying etc...)
There's no official all air map in FH2, just those CMP ones you mentioned. I think there are some devs who don't see them as fun for one reason or another, but idk how they individually feel.
I'd like to see an official BoB someday :)
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IMO, problem is engine which was NOT made for ww2 game but modern combat. That is seen on physics of airplanes who fly like jets and overall all FH2 wepons are ,because game engine , very strong and precise. On that BoB map, look how german bombers are useless, in whole game just few kills; look how bomber gunners cant do absolutely nothing but die lol. British airplanes are taking bombers like candies. Bf1942 is from start ww2 game and in air maps bomber gunner were very usefull to a line were one side had only bombers and other side fighters. Plus that bf1942 version of BoB I DISLIKE very,map is super small at the moment and with low viewdistance IMO.
I dont know, maybe all this is posible to fix, but at moment Im not fan of air map.
EDIT: that was for bomber version mostly. Now some fighters vs fighters BoB/ Kannalkampf with Dover cliffs in view... yep.
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I don't like to fly, and they feel very clustered and a bit silly to me. I might like them, however, if pilots would wait for gunners to get into their planes before they take off! I like being the gunner but no one ever waits! >:(
Ditto for the CMP Midway. I enjoy it for about 15 minutes and then find it a bit of a drag. But then again I love the Africa maps so maybe I am not exactly representative ;D
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...After all, I can't even name a computer game that captures this fanstasy.
Here is your answer. Most of the people didn't come here to play fantasy game, and those heavily scaled down maps are pretty much fantasy and have nothing to do with things like actual battle of britain etc, unlike many other FH2 maps which are 1:1 copies of real thing. Flying is also very arcady in BF2 engine, less realistic than it even was in BF1942.
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I've never enjoyed flying in any of the Battlefield games, and FH2 is no exception. The problem with these two maps is that they offer very little in terms of gameplay: you are either in a plane or in an AA gun and that's it. In FH2 stock maps that are tank heavy (Alam Halfa, El Alamein, etc.) infantry still has an important role on the battlefield. Even if you don't enjoy tanking, you can still play as a tank-hunter, spot for artillery, take potshots at enemy infantry... Much more fun than being forced to play as a plane/AA gun.
And, as Jan mentioned, BoB is very cartoonish, with the channel being scaled to little more than a river. I can't comment on BtR since I haven't played it.
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I've never enjoyed flying in any of the Battlefield games, and FH2 is no exception. The problem with these two maps is that they offer very little in terms of gameplay: you are either in a plane or in an AA gun and that's it. In FH2 stock maps that are tank heavy (Alam Halfa, El Alamein, etc.) infantry still has an important role on the battlefield. Even if you don't enjoy tanking, you can still play as a tank-hunter, spot for artillery, take potshots at enemy infantry... Much more fun than being forced to play as a plane/AA gun.
And, as Jan mentioned, BoB is very cartoonish, with the channel being scaled to little more than a river. I can't comment on BtR since I haven't played it.
Tank hunting is definitely something not portrayed as good in any other FPS game right now. Can't think of a more satisfying FH2 moment, than positioning that PaK 40 in really effective way, preferably so that you can get side shots at the incoming armoured spearhead - then wait for the perfect moment to open fire at the leading tank, to stop movement of the rest. You have now gained total control of the battlefield for the following minute, and that minute could very well decide the round for your team ;D
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I've never enjoyed flying in any of the Battlefield games, and FH2 is no exception. The problem with these two maps is that they offer very little in terms of gameplay: you are either in a plane or in an AA gun and that's it. In FH2 stock maps that are tank heavy (Alam Halfa, El Alamein, etc.) infantry still has an important role on the battlefield. Even if you don't enjoy tanking, you can still play as a tank-hunter, spot for artillery, take potshots at enemy infantry... Much more fun than being forced to play as a plane/AA gun.
And, as Jan mentioned, BoB is very cartoonish, with the channel being scaled to little more than a river. I can't comment on BtR since I haven't played it.
Well BtR also scalled down the English Channel, but it is actually a good map. I shot down 6 enemy planes (German Side), and once, playing for the Brits, I brought down a Me-262.
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Well BtR also scalled down the English Channel, but it is actually a good map. I shot down 6 enemy planes (German Side), and once, playing for the Brits, I brought down a Me-262.
so... the score you get and your personal taste decides if map is good or not now? ::)
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I don't mind that they're so scaled. Maps like Gazala, El Al and any map with planes are hugely scaled but are still fun. It can be a nice change of pace, but only for about 30-40 minutes while the round plays out. I wouldn't want a 24/7 BoB server.
I guess I like that FH has so many battles represented. It's fun to pretend that you're taking part in the important (and unimportant) battles of WW2 and does its best to immerse you in them.
Sure, I'll get a more realistic BoB experience playing IL2. But in FH2, after I'm done defending Britain, I can hope in a T-34 on Arad. It's cool to get a huge range of WW2 experiences all in one.
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Well BtR also scalled down the English Channel, but it is actually a good map. I shot down 6 enemy planes (German Side), and once, playing for the Brits, I brought down a Me-262.
so... the score you get and your personal taste decides if map is good or not now? ::)
I was rating that on my personal taste
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I don't mind that they're so scaled. Maps like Gazala, El Al and any map with planes are hugely scaled but are still fun...
...add Siege of Tobruk and Mareth Line to that list. They can be fun, true. But you can tell those are all early FH2 maps, suffering from the scale and many other flaws. Of course there are others to suffer from that like Op. Cobra (which is one of the worst FH2 maps ever made IMHO), but that one was rushed into the official mod, made out of tournament map, only to give us the opportunity to play with american airplanes, which probably could wait and was a mistake.
Yet still, they offer something more than just planes, so they are some ups to make them play a bit better than unpopular air maps. Keep in mind, there are people who hate flying in FH2. I'm not a big fan of it too, and yet I loved the FHT version of Battle of Britian which IMO should take place of the vBF1942 remake in the CMP. It was much less arcadish and focused more on actual air battle instead of silly fantasy bomber runs full of kamizakes and people who don't give a flying fuck about their planes. Uneven and unbalanced gameplay (bombers don't stand a chance against fighters, their role is to drop bombs and die) deprived this map of an adrenaline rush a proper dogfight can give, since only destroying the objectives matters.
FHT version of BoB, while also being scaled down a lot, at least was based on an actual terrain, it was focused around air engagements and felt less crouded, since players were spreaded out around the huge flag zones, and not just a few tiny objectives, what added a little bit of realistic feel into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUEXlUXbDoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUEXlUXbDoc)
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I don't mind that they're so scaled. Maps like Gazala, El Al and any map with planes are hugely scaled but are still fun...
...add Siege of Tobruk and Mareth Line to that list. They can be fun, true. But you can tell those are all early FH2 maps, suffering from the scale and many other flaws. Of course there are others to suffer from that like Op. Cobra (which is one of the worst FH2 maps ever made IMHO), but that one was rushed into the official mod, made out of tournament map, only to give us the opportunity to play with american airplanes, which probably could wait and was a mistake.
Yet still, they offer something more than just planes, so they are some ups to make them play a bit better than unpopular air maps. Keep in mind, there are people who hate flying in FH2. I'm not a big fan of it too, and yet I loved the FHT version of Battle of Britian which IMO should take place of the vBF1942 remake in the CMP. It was much less arcadish and focused more on actual air battle instead of silly fantasy bomber runs full of kamizakes and people who don't give a flying fuck about their planes. Uneven and unbalanced gameplay (bombers don't stand a chance against fighters, their role is to drop bombs and die) deprived this map of an adrenaline rush a proper dogfight can give, since only destroying the objectives matters.
FHT version of BoB, while also being scaled down a lot, at least was based on an actual terrain, it was focused around air engagements and felt less crouded, since players were spreaded out around the huge flag zones, and not just a few tiny objectives, what added a little bit of realistic feel into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUEXlUXbDoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUEXlUXbDoc)
Agree. Op. Cobra is a piece of shit.
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Wasn't a tournament map though. It was made by some guy from BGF if I remember correctly. He never made another FH2 map after that. Natty had to heavily rework it and found evidence of staggering incompetence, like having bocage hedges placed as randomly generated overgrowth etc.
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Agree. Op. Cobra is a piece of shit.
And yet it's still better than any other map (or any content) you made.
You may not like it, but don't say it's a piece of shit, as for as I'm concerned, I really like this map, even if it has its flaws.
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People like it because it provides planes and lots of tanks. However, the actual layout as well as "style" is... subpar.
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The biggest issue with a BoB map isn't the scale but the fact that it only focuses on one form of combat. There would be some people who disappear when it comes up because it only has planes and AA.
The poll I made in the other forum suggests that the majority of people wouldn't mind it tho.
This one:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=20567.0 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=20567.0)
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Agree. Op. Cobra is a piece of shit.
And yet it's still better than any other map (or any content) you made.
You may not like it, but don't say it's a piece of shit, as for as I'm concerned, I really like this map, even if it has its flaws.
Well I like the city part, but this map is bad because there is no 32 or 16 pl version
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Agree. Op. Cobra is a piece of shit.
And yet it's still better than any other map (or any content) you made.
You may not like it, but don't say it's a piece of shit, as for as I'm concerned, I really like this map, even if it has its flaws.
Well I like the city part, but this map is bad because there is no 32 or 16 pl version
The vehicles close distances so that it effectively is a 16p tanking version, as there are planes and tanks available for everyone.
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FHT version of BoB, while also being scaled down a lot, at least was based on an actual terrain, it was focused around air engagements and felt less crouded, since players were spreaded out around the huge flag zones, and not just a few tiny objectives, what added a little bit of realistic feel into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUEXlUXbDoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUEXlUXbDoc)
Not want to be rude, Im not true mapper
but is there chance ,you CMP guys, for polishing and including this mainly fighter version of BoB -and removing bf1942 version? Maybe just to ask would you like to do it?
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My main gripe with BF2/FH2 flying is the awfully short visibility, it's like flying in a fog all the time. Of course, this is more of an engine limitation, because otherwise you would see all across the small map, leaving nowehere to hide, and the engine would probably choke on itself. However, the visibility also limits tactical choices: you can't climb too high unless you want to lose the sight of the enemies (or hit the "glass ceiling" even if you're a male).
The second is the flight model itself, again I suspect this is more of an engine limitation. I wouldn't say it resembles a "jet" or "prop", it is its own thing that has very little to do with real physics (cf. ground vehicles and their ridiculously high-set centre of gravity). Yes, I realize a FPS shooter cannot have Falcon 4.0 style realism, but even many "flyer shooters" like Ace Combat 6 have a better flight model. Going back to the ancient Their Finest Hour that turns 28 this year, that had already a better WW2 flight model and despite being labeled as "simulator" at the time, would not be too difficult to learn if applied to a today's FPS (a stark reminder on just how primitive the games of those ancient times were). Nevermind that I'm spoiled rotten by the IL-2 series, which even at its easiest settings (which I rarely used after getting a "feel" of the more realistic flying) feels more like real flying (and again, those "easy" settings would not be too difficult to learn in a FPS, it's the "realistic" mode that takes real practice). Also, since the BF2 flight model is its own thing, the more experience you have of "real" flight games (in my case, 27 years, starting with Project: Stealth Fighter on the C64) the more you have to unlearn (like throttle that seems to have two settings only even when using a flightstick: war emergency power and idle, and when you start to lose speed, it happens so fast you will never recover from a stall or have time to increase power).
Yet, as an aviation enthusiast, I cannot resist trying flying every now and then, but time after time, I cannot bring myself spending the hours necessary to master the BF2 flight model.
Nevertheless, flying in FH2 is still fun every once in a while, even for a whole evening when there's a special event, and at its best, the chaos on Battle of Britain or Bombing the Reich maps is epic. But "pure" flying is not FH2's main forte, that would be the combined arms approach that meets the right amount of realism in ground combat.
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Il-2 has the numbing rudder pedal simulation, just like every other "simulators" out there, including the famed Microsoft FS (and its Prepar3d continuation by Lockheed Martin) and X-Plane series. Which is why we use mods. There are no perfect FS in the market today. Perhaps Falcon 4.0 (BMS) or DCS can aleviate that, but even DCS has weird physics for aircraft touching down.
In FH or BF games, and ARMA games, planes provide some sort of atmosphere, even the player-piloted ones. It feels too fast for a proper strafing runs, the fog limits dogfighting potential, and the AA is dead accurate because we don't get enough distance from them. The whole flying thing in BF2 engine is broken in my opinion. Perhaps because they were to accomodate helicopter simulation physics, perhaps something else. Therefore, focusing on BF2's weakest link might not yield good results, but it surely appeal to certain die hard FH fans.