Author Topic: French Hope  (Read 114824 times)

Offline siben

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #150 on: 02-06-2010, 16:06:13 »
That still leaves my most pressing desire unanswered: what infantry smallarms did they have (rifles, smgs, pistols etc.)

Here you go.

http://forums.filefront.com/fh2-suggestions/372936-french-weapons-second-world-war-comprehensive-articles.html

Offline CptdeS35

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #151 on: 02-06-2010, 21:06:59 »
Many weapon come from English arsenal :
Bren Carrier / Antitank Rifles / 40m Bofors

From french arsenal :
76 mitrailleuses Hotchkiss / fusil-mitrailleurs 24/29 , many artillery take on Syrian / Lebanon arsenal as the canons de 75m.

So very different kind of weapons, as there is many kind of Unit (French Legion with 300 Spanish Republican, troops from French Polynesia etc...).

Also gurkhas (if i'm right) captured and released by german...
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Offline CptdeS35

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #152 on: 06-06-2010, 23:06:08 »
'hope we will see news quickly..
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Offline Johannes

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #153 on: 07-06-2010, 12:06:48 »
I'm surprised I haven't seen this until now, but then I haven't been too active on the forums as of late. In any case, can't wait to see more images! Now to address some stuff.

@THeTA0123 : Thank you for your kind words mate! Well, as you may have seen in the 2.26 changelog, many French stuff has been made:
Quote
* Grenade Defensive modele 37 (sethsoldier)
* Grenade Offensive modele 37 (sethsoldier)
* Pistolet Automatique modele 1935 A (sethsoldier)
* Berthier modèle 1916 (sethsoldier)
* Berthier modèle 1916 Bayonet (sethsoldier)
* Berthier modèle 1916 Tromblon (sethsoldier)
* Berthier modèle 1916 Apx21 (sethsoldier)
* Somua S35 (sethsoldier)
* F1 Grenade (sethsoldier)
* French Soldier (sethsoldier)
* SA34 25mm (sethsoldier)
* H39 SA18 model and skin (sethsoldier)
* B1 Bis (sethsoldier)
* Citroen 11 cv Model and Textures by HERC (toddel)
* French Army Kits (sethsoldier)

Tiny note: Berthier 1916 rifles were almost never used with the VB rifle grenade, as they were determined to be structurally too weak. This is why the Lebel 1886 M93 remained the standard rifle of the grenadier. Scoped Berthier rifles did exist, although these were rare compared to scoped Lebels.

When designing maps, remember that French squads using 8 mm rifles always had a mix of Berthier rifles (the riflemen, sergeant and corporal x 6), Berthier carbines (the ammo carriers x 3), and the Lebel rifle (grenadier x 1). It was an extremely complicated situation that was largely resolved with the 7.5 mm MAS 36 (or Berthier 1907-14 M34) squads, which just gave that rifle to everyone (although since grenadiers were usually pooled at platoon level, they often retained the Lebel).

That still leaves my most pressing desire unanswered: what infantry smallarms did they have (rifles, smgs, pistols etc.)

Here you go.

http://forums.filefront.com/fh2-suggestions/372936-french-weapons-second-world-war-comprehensive-articles.html

I have an updated version that I really should post on these forums one of these days. That link seems to be missing a good chunk of the photographs.

Yeah italians tried to invade France through the Alps in the middle of may 1940.

EPIC FAIL.

June 1940. Italy declared war on 10 June, started their primary offensive on 20 June.

Wow the French wasted a lot of money on that damn line :/

You know, with our knowledge of history it may seem a waste, but this line actually did its job: preventing any surprise attack like in 1870 and 1914, so that the French army had enough time to mobilize.  ;)

Things didn't happen as expected but at least, we weren't caught with pants completely off.  ;D

Yeah, that. The Maginot Line remains one of the most poorly understood things in history. It was not designed to be a magical shield that would stop a German offensive; that was pure propaganda used by both the Third Republic to comfort their citizens and the Vichy government to highlight the supposed decadence of the Third Republic.

The Maginot Line was designed as a deterrent to force the Germans through Belgium. As has been pointed out here, the French fully wanted to make the Germans go around it; the best French forces, the First and Seventh Armies, and the British Expeditionary Force were all allocated to rushing into Belgium to halt the German advance there. The miscalculation was in expecting the primary German offensive to go through northern Belgium (Army Group B; in fact, the original German plan until January 1940 did project just this) rather than through the Ardennes in southern Belgium (Army Group A), which was defended by only light Belgian forces and the worst of the French Army (the 2nd and 9th Armies).

Finally, in terms of the utility of the Maginot Line strategy, it would be wise to remember that the Germans were doing the exact same thing with the construction of the Siegfried Line in the 1930s.

Exactly, the Maginot Line worked perfectly at not letting the enemy through. Too bad the sneaky Germans knew how to drive through an impenetrable forest though...

Had the French continued the Maginot Line to the coast WWII would've looked like WWI, just with less dashing aeroplanes. But for some reason the Belgians and Dutch didn't like the idea of their lands being left behind. Nor did they allow building the line through their lands, so not to provoke the Germans.

But the story of the Ardennes forest is also somewhat overblown. People like quoting Pétain's statement that the forest was "impenetrable" while omitting the last part of it that stated "provided certain measures are taken." In fact, the French didn't believe the forest was "impenetrable" as much as they did that it would take the Germans, assuming that was not the primary axis of their offensive, too long to cross the Meuse River. The calculation was 9 days (the exact amount the German High Command also predicted), by which time it was believed the French Army would be able to mobilize the troops necessary to encircle and pincer off any threat that developed in that sector. This failed because the French underestimated the German force (still thinking Army Group B was the primary, and thus taking too long to react to the threat at Sedan), had squandered their best reserves in the rush through northern Belgium, and, finally, the Germans crossed the Meuse much faster than anyone thought they would, in a mere three days.

As for the Maginot Line reaching the coast, it would have not only made the Belgians feel left out (they ended up declaring neutrality in 1936 though) but also would have cut through the industrial heartland of northeastern France, thus disrupting industry. In theory, the Belgian fortifications (of which Eben Emael was a part) was supposed to be an unofficial linking continuation with the Maginot fortifications.

frecn army's equipements are great (they overclassed most of the german's ones) but poor tactics and coordination lead France to the fail of 1940. Hopefully it didn't hurt our hope. French Hope. (lol)
Problem with france during WW2 was lack of proper radio equipment, not so good tactics, bad AA weaponary, 1 and 2 man tank turrets and the waste of resources spended on the maginot line

The 1 man turret and Maginot Line may seem like badly designed wastes of resources, but it should be remembered that the primary reason behind their construction was the demographic fact that France needed to conserve as much manpower as possible. 40 million French against 70 million Germans was not a bright prospect, and in fact France could mobilize far fewer men of prime age in 1939 than they did in 1914. Given that mentality, the money spent on the Maginot Line fortifications would theoretically allow France to conserve much manpower, since the forts would prevent unnecessary casualties and could be manned by fewer men than an unfortified position. Given this mentality, it can be seen why sparing a man per tank could also make sense.

As for the Maginot Line being a waste of money that could have been used elsewhere:

You have to understand that truely military plants were few and couldn't sustain a very high rate of production. Beside these there were many little plants, each one making a part of the final product. And there were many new processes to implement because most of those factories were initially civil plants (for exemple making cars, bicycles or cans) that were converted for military production. This is not something you do in a few weeks, sometimes production was screwed for many months before there were actually results, slow results.
That's how happened weird situations such as shortages of guns, tanks without turrets or (the worst of all) thousands of brand new aircrafts stuck on the ground because they lacked radios or weren't certified for flight.

That. People forget that France had a very different experience from the industrial revolution. Whereas in the United States and Britain the efficient "mass producing giant factory" became the stereotypical form of industrialization, France's industrial revolution was centered around modernizing the old "small workshop". This was perceived as both socially pleasant and more traditionally French (France has had a very long history of artisans; the "tour de France" used to be a stage in artisan apprenticeship, a tradition that lasted all the way into the 19th century), but in times of impending war would be wildly inefficient. The average Morane 406 took 18,000 man-hours of labor, as opposed to the BF109's 5,000. Given their inefficiency and lack of development, the French factories were producing as much as they could before the war; it's questionable whether much more could have been done had the money from the Maginot Line been spared, especially given the political atmosphere of 1930s France. In fact, the French were eventually reduced in 1939 to buying as many planes as quickly as possible from the United States.

well they may looking for historical accurency...so =>no fight with maginot line...at least, a map with germans encircling french at maginot line. It's hard to deal with..

Fights did happen at the Maginot Line, which faced off German Army Group C throughout May 1940 and finally had to face some full-scale German offensives in June 1940. But yes, it would be very hard to do and probably not worth the effort modeling the complexity of the Maginot Line fortifications.
« Last Edit: 11-07-2022, 18:07:59 by Johannes »

Offline MaJ.P.Bouras

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #154 on: 07-06-2010, 12:06:15 »
Like chinese people ?

Offline Johannes

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #155 on: 07-06-2010, 12:06:58 »
Like chinese people ?

Lol, talking about the uniform.

Offline Johannes

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #156 on: 08-06-2010, 08:06:43 »

Well, yes. But it wasn't really used by the units on the field. On the other hand it was quite used by the "Corps Francs" (or "Francs Tireurs" during the phoney war). Not high priority... But it's a very cool rifle ^^
PS: what means GRM?

GRM = Garde républicaine mobile, elite motorized military police attached to the armies, occasionally saw action as combat troops

So, to make it short, what would be best for the French faction are those rifles, FMs and PMs (if we get all of that of course xD ):
-recon 1 (voltigeur): Mousqueton Berthier (carabine) / -recon 2 (franc tireur): RSC 1918 or PM Mas 38
-assault (grenadier): Lebel 1886 M93 + Tromblon
-riflemen (fusilier): Berthier 1916
-machinegunner (tireur FM): FM 24/29
-engineer (génie): Berthier 1916
-anti-tank (anti-char): Berthier 1916
-NCO (sous-officier): Berthier 1916 or PM Mas 38
Kits:
-ammo carriers (pourvoyeur): Mousqueton Berthier (carabine)
-sniper (tireur d'élite): Lebel 1886 M93 Apx21
-heavy machinegunner (mitrailleur): Hotchkiss mle 1916

Hotchkiss mle 1914 you mean? :P

Engineers should definitely have the Berthier carbine and not the long rifle. Anti-tanker? Hard to have such a dedicated role in 1940, when very few AT weapons other than arty guns were used. The French did have some Boys rifles in 1940 that they had received from Britain in exchange for some Hotchkiss 25 mm AT guns, which would negate the use of the Berthier rifle.

You might want to consider also squads using the MAS 36 rifle, which eliminated the overcomplicated 8 mm squad setup (everyone in those squads got the MAS 36); certain maps involving the better armed French forces (such as those that fought at Stonne) would probably have a higher concentration of MAS 36 wielders than a battle like Sedan.

Haha, nice picture. Do you know where it was taken? Nice copies as well, I know many French 1940 copy stuff is beeing made in Belgium and Holland.
I hope as well to see the French player model to be like this! But I don't know if we can make a similar "capote" (overcoat) with BF2 engine?!

Yes. The picture is of me a month ago during my last lecture to the class I teach at my university (with the sponsorship of a professor) on the history of the French Army and government in World War Two. And other than the boots, the puttees, and possibly the greatcoat, they aren't copies! :)

What you see:

-Adrian 1926 (size D shell) w/ 1915 infantry insignia of the 1940 khaki color
-mle 1938 capote
-mle 1938 golf trousers (dated 1940, in a huge size for the time, hence why they seem so baggy on me: 104 cm, or a U.S. size 40)
-ANP31 gas mask set (with complete gas mask equipment inside)
-mle 1892-34 musette
-1892/14 y-straps (the correct prewar pattern with 9 holes, not the common postwar surplus with 11 holes)

Hidden behind my period flag: 2 x 1916 cartridge pouches, 1903/14 waist belt, 1935 canteen (with chasseur blue wool cover and black strap)
-On my back: 1 x period army belt loop (replacing the back ammo pouch), 1893/14 backpack, with wool blanket, mle 1935 tent inside and three tent pegs strapped outside, canvas water bucket on the front, and strapped on non-standard fashion a strapless mle 1935 musette and a strapless mle 1877 2-liter canteen
-In my pants: a caleçon
-Within the musettes: mle 1935 and mle 1852 messkits, mle 1852 cup

Schipperfabrik very recently introduced their mle 1938 capote and infantry vareuse (which, copied from an original, also has the back stitching of the mle 1935) which are nice, but extremely expensive.

As for modeling the capote in-game, I don't think it's possible/practical. I know this discussion has been had on these forums before (concerning German and American winter coats). You can probably get away with just modeling the infantry vareuse.

If you want pictures of anything for modeling reference, let me know! When you get around to modeling the MAS 36 sights, you'll definitely want to see good photos (or own and look through) the real thing instead of improvising it from photos you find online, almost all of which portray the post-war type, which had different front and rear sights.
« Last Edit: 09-01-2011, 01:01:27 by Johannes »

Offline Johannes

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #157 on: 09-06-2010, 08:06:50 »
By the way, carbine is a bad translation for "mousqueton". Yes, it's a carbine, but if we translate in French, there will be a mistake, as we make the difference between the carbine (like the M1 carbine) and the Mousqueton (shortened rifle).
For the anti-tank class, we did have them in 1940. They were equiped with "pétard" (high explosives) and few AT grenades from WW1. We have similar kits in FH2. He should get the AT mines as well, but the engineer need something xD.

Were the pétards actually used in AT role though? I figured they were simply used in standard satchel (engineering and sapper construction/destruction) duty.

There was a model 1918 anti-tank grenade, but I was under the impression that it was no longer in (widespread) service in 1940.

As for carabine and mousqueton, it's kind of a moot point. There isn't a current, common translation in English other than "carbine" to represent the idea, and in French the differentiation (at least in terms of French Army weaponry) ceased to be relevant following the 1890 series of cavalry and police carbines. For example, the "mousqueton 1916" was not a shortened version of a rifle, but in fact an updated mousqueton 1892, which was an independent carbine design that preceded the Berthier long rifle by a decade (almost two decades if you don't count the rare 1902 indochinois rifle).


Of course, was just doing the rifle list for the common units. With the Mas 36, it's more simple. Now you got me interested for Stonne. I know there was some DI (Inf. Div.) and DCr (Armoured Div.), but didn't know they were equiped with Mas 36. I believe the DCr was equiped with Mousqueton (because it's a cavalry div.). Do you have more informations about that plz ?

Actually, two things:

1. The 4 DCRs (at Stonne, it was the 3rd DCR that fought alongside the 3rd DIM, a motorized infantry division) were not cavalry divisions but in fact infantry tank divisions. The three armored cavalry divisions were the DLMs (Division légère mécanique). In any case, both the 3rd DCR and 3rd DIM were elite divisions who likely had many MAS 36s within their ranks, but this is an educated guess rather than a statement of fact.

2. Cavalry troops (primarily dragoons and other mounted infantry; not drivers of vehicles) actually got the MAS 36 rifles proportionately more than the infantry units. MAS 36 rifles were not only issued to elite units (and the better standard infantry units), but also as a priority to cavalry troops given their strategic and tactical role as the advance guard of the army meant to be the first line of defense against enemy offensives, and hence serving as a cover for the slower mobilization of other troops within France. An ironic note: despite the fact that people associate the M35 equipment and ammo pouches with the MAS 36, in fact there was no coordination between the issuing of the newer equipment and the MAS 36. Most troops given the new pouches and equipment continued to use the 8 mm rifles, while the cavalry, with their higher proportion of MAS 36 wielders, retained for the most part the older 1916 pouches and Great War-era equipment.

Sorry for that! Just said it because you were reenacting and most of the time they are using copies (luckily). Very cool equipment you got there. The golf trousers are rare and expensive, most of the time (like most of the French equipment) it's post-war (1945-1950s). Many capotes and other French clothes have been produced in 1944-1945 and are 90% similar to 1939-1940 productions. Because they were using unissued surplus and they were producing them in the same factories with the same techniques than before the war. The main difference is the color and quality who sucks. The Belgian and Dutch are known to collect a lot the French 1940 equipment! (don't know why!)

Actually, I'm not so sure about the 1944-1945-manufactured uniforms. French industry mass produced uniforms in 1944-1945, for sure, but as far as i know they were all the model 1941 (Vichy) patterns that the GPRF retained in service and the newer 1944 pattern uniforms copied off of Canadian Battle Dress. There are also French-made American uniforms, but I have yet to find/hear of (they might exist, but certainly just in small numbers) the 1940-style uniforms being manufactured in 1944-45 (mle 20, 35, or 38 vareuse, mle 20 or mle 38 capote, mle 22 culotte or mle 38 golf trousers). The Vichy government did keep manufacturing the old style uniforms until late 1941 or early 1942 (when the 1941 uniforms started entering service), and these as well as unissued examples from during and before the 1940 campaign were taken out en masse to issue to troops of the reconstituted metropolitan army in 1944 and 1945 (who often modified them in peculiar ways, like removing the shoulder straps from the infantry vareuse), but I haven't personally seen any evidence yet of these old patterns actually being manufactured in those years.

And yes, mle 1941 and 1944 uniforms made in 1944-45 are often of very mediocre quality cloth, sometimes even being made of captured German wool (and thus in field gray)!

Quote
-In my pants: a caleçon
And what do you got in your caleçon ?  ::)

Heh heh, I should rephrase that. I was wearing a caleçon réglementaire, French Army long underwear of the prewar configuration. It was funny, manufactured in such a matter as to be essentailly crotchless!  :-X

And yes, I know about that site. It's quite excellent!
« Last Edit: 09-01-2011, 01:01:18 by Johannes »

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #158 on: 09-06-2010, 18:06:36 »
it is ok to be historical accurate, but you have to think of balance. If you dont give the french an anti-tank class, imagine the frakking horror!

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Offline Strat_84

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #159 on: 09-06-2010, 19:06:05 »
In that time infantry AT weapons were few and not that efficient on both sides. It will be an occasion to learn a new way to play. ;)


Offline MaJ.P.Bouras

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #160 on: 09-06-2010, 19:06:09 »
Yeah PR style,One side gets PZ3 and the other Rox to throw at them!

Offline CptdeS35

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #161 on: 10-06-2010, 00:06:11 »
Berthier was the most common weapon in the french army in 1940 ??? oO

damned..i think it was lebel ^^' ...
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Offline Ajs47951

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #162 on: 10-06-2010, 06:06:42 »
Funny name for a mini mod  the French had no hope all you need to do is to send one tank over and the hole French army holds up the white flag lol 

plz don't take this in a bad way. Just joking!
looks like a cool mod


Offline Johannes

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #163 on: 10-06-2010, 07:06:28 »
In that time infantry AT weapons were few and not that efficient on both sides. It will be an occasion to learn a new way to play. ;)

Yes. 1940 plays by different rules from the later campaigns when infantry was spoiled by large numbers of personal AT weapons. Emphasis on tank destruction was overwhelmingly on the AT gun, of which France had some of the best in service, and which were almost the only effective things the Germans had (primarily the Flak 88 mm, as their other guns often had problems denting the French armor).

Besides, as I said, the French had Boys rifles, and the Germans already had captured Polish wz. 35 rifles and probably some of their own model 1938 and 1939 AT rifles.

One of David Lehmann's posts online states that the French also had molotov cocktails in 1940, although I don't know any details about this.

Berthier was the most common weapon in the french army in 1940 ??? oO

damned..i think it was lebel ^^' ...

Most riflemen had the Berthier long rifles; Lebel 1886 rifles were relegated to grenadiers, snipers, and the mediocre units (reservist types).

It's impossible to know the exact numbers, but I would imagine the most common arm in the French Army was actually the 1892 Berthier mousqueton (carbine) and its derivatives (primarily the 1916 5-shot type).

There were about 2 million French soldiers in 1940. The average infantry squad had 6 Berthier long rifles (Lebel 1886 M93's replaced these in some units, but usually only in the poorest equipped ones), 3 Berthier carbines, 1 Lebel 1886 M93 (the grenadier), 1 FM 24/29 LMG, and 1 guy armed with a pistol (usually the Spanish imports like the Ruby). However, artillerymen, engineers, corps francs, drivers, cavalrymen, heavy machine gunners, and other special troops (like goumiers, and much of the army stationed in Indochina) used primarily the Berthier carbines and not the long rifles.

Note that there are numerous variations of the Berthier rifles and carbines, and both types experienced numerous minor modifications in the interwar period. Basically, the most significant types were:

-1916 Berthier rifle (5-shot, most common long rifle by 1939)
-1907-15 Berthier rifle (3-shot, for the poorer units)

-1916 Berthier carbine (5-shot, most common carbine by 1939)
-1892 Berthier carbine (3-shot, for the poorer units)

There was also the Lebel 1886 M93 R35 carbine, which saw limited service (about 35,000).

Of the 2 million-ish troops, only about 300,000 were armed with 7.5 mm rifles: the MAS 36 (250,000, the best units and much of the cavalry) and the Berthier 1907-15 M34 (about 50,000, largely fortress infantry).

Some other, more rare, non-Berthier and non-Lebel rifles were in service in 1940: the RSC 1918 semi-auto (10,000), MAS 40 semi-auto (unknown number; I think the only unit that got a standard issue of these was the 10e RC), and the Gras 1874 (in the French Army, only among the most backwater local reservist units).
« Last Edit: 10-06-2010, 17:06:04 by Johannes »

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: French Hope
« Reply #164 on: 10-06-2010, 12:06:35 »
Seeing both the Lebel as the Berthier AS the mas-36 would be so awesome

even more awesome that if we have the french army we can have a battle of norway
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