French Hope

[siben]

I've read that the Maginot Line is thoroughly misunderstood - its purpose was in fact to FORCE the Germans to go round it. The French knew they'd come through Belgium (hint: they did it in 1914) and so decided to force them to do it again and face them there, taking advantage (as they thought) of the inability of armour to move through the Ardennes, nullifying Hitler's vaunted Blitzkrieg.

Of course, this didn't work out because
a) you can drive tanks through forests
b) the French government and society as a whole had been so anti-war in the 1930s that the army was in no fit state to launch a decisive confrontation on the emerging German Army in Belgium or Northern France

So it's key to remember that the only French 'mistake' was the one about Blitzkrieg not working through the Ardennes. They never expected a suicidal charge against their Maginot flank - it was a massive deterrent to funnel the Germans into what the French thought was a battle they could win.

You can't drive tanks tru the forests of the ardennes, ever seen them? A large parts really is only doable on foot, and let us not forget the many surprise 10m clifs they have. You have to stick to the roads if you want to get tru. And i guess that is what they did.

[Kelmola]

The small, mostly non-paved roads through the Ardennes were actually a severe bottleneck and slowed down Wehrmacht considerably, so the French got it half right. If they had not stuck to the belief and had reacted faster, the entire offensive could have been stalled then and there.

Regarding the French tanks, they were still designed with a rerun of WW1 in mind. Heavy armour is nice if you expect frontal attacks on fixed positions or defend a fixed position yourself. Of course, speed is of minimal importance in such a role. Plus, if you are not manoeuvering much, you can dispense with the radio which is just expensive and unnecessary gear, it takes space inside the tank and might require an extra crewmember. Also, since you are not manoeuvering much, you don't need to be able to drive long distances range-wise or service-wise, just to support a charge across the no man's land before stopping and waiting for the battlelines to shift and the logistics train to catch up.

In a tank-to-tank fight, the French tanks would give a beating to the Germans. And they had more tanks than Germany, PLUS what the BEF would bring. But the crafty Germans had made their Panzers fast, mechanically reliable (before they got the fascination with heavy tanks) and with radios (to coordinate a large fast-moving force), so they simply outmanoeuvered and outran the French tanks, leaving infantry, 88s and Stukas to deal with them. The German used the tanks to zip through the front lines and wreak havoc among the rear echelon which was completely defenseless.

The irony of the situation was that at the time of surrender, the French Army was still largely intact (Dolchstoß much?), except that it was completely in the wrong place with no realistic chance of getting itself in time where it should have been, and had its supply lines cut by the fast-moving Panzers.

[Strat_84]

That's not completely true Kelmola. The speed of tanks had nothing to do with a remake of WWI fights, but was set up because of the use of the tanks.

3 categories:
- Infantry tanks were under Infantry command and meant to support infantry only (whatever it is on attack or defence). Making those tanks faster than 20km/h was quite useless
- Heavy tanks (mostly the B1) were meant to be truely unstoppable, to give the initial punch that would colapse any resistance AND provide some close artillery support. Those tanks were mostly in independant brigades under Infantry or Cavalry command. The speed of those tanks was mainly limited by the technology of that time.
- Cavalry tanks were meant to exploit breakthroughs, and so had evenly balanced armor/speed/firepower. Those tanks were under Cavalry command.

In France Cavalry and Infantry were somewhat fighting each others since 1917 to have the control of that weapon (leading to several versions with opposite features), whereas Germany simply created a completely new entity: the Tank Corps. That explains why there was not much difference in philosophy between all early german tanks.


Also, the French tanks so called unreliability compared to German ones is an urban legend. Statistics telling that Germans lost almost no tank because of failures while Frenchs lost a lot come from the simple fact that Germans were on advance and so could recover their damaged tanks, whereas Frenchs couldn't and were forced to abandon them.
The only truely unreliable tank French had was the 2C, and it never really fought. 

[THeTA0123]

France also had not very good supply lines. Germans could maintain their panzers whenever they want, while the French had to wait for spare parts/maintance tools


Remeber, it was the french wich developed the very first true Tank. the FT-17

[CptdeS35]

erh not the first tank, but the first true tank with a 360° turret ! it becomes the model for all tanks since then.

Some french tanks were fast (like S35 or AMD35) so don't see all the tanks like a B1Bis...

Ardennes was a nice place to breakthrough as germans let frenchs go on belgium, so they can surround the maginot line and the dunkirk pocket. (cut the french army in 2 parts)

[Alakazou]

Nice.

[:| Hi]

[ Insert jizz my pants gif/jpeg/png]

[VonMudra]

I've read that the Maginot Line is thoroughly misunderstood - its purpose was in fact to FORCE the Germans to go round it. The French knew they'd come through Belgium (hint: they did it in 1914) and so decided to force them to do it again and face them there, taking advantage (as they thought) of the inability of armour to move through the Ardennes, nullifying Hitler's vaunted Blitzkrieg.

Of course, this didn't work out because
a) you can drive tanks through forests
b) the French government and society as a whole had been so anti-war in the 1930s that the army was in no fit state to launch a decisive confrontation on the emerging German Army in Belgium or Northern France

So it's key to remember that the only French 'mistake' was the one about Blitzkrieg not working through the Ardennes. They never expected a suicidal charge against their Maginot flank - it was a massive deterrent to funnel the Germans into what the French thought was a battle they could win.

You are quite correct sir.  The Maginot Line worked perfectly.  It was the rest of the plan that didn't

[Eat Uranium]

I'm curious as to what weapons the French had with them at Bir Hakeim.  I'm sure I remember (probably Johannes) someone posting what they had, but I can't remember.

[[79th]Argal]

Many weapon come from English arsenal :
Bren Carrier / Antitank Rifles / 40m Bofors

From french arsenal :
76 mitrailleuses Hotchkiss / fusil-mitrailleurs 24/29 , many artillery take on Syrian / Lebanon arsenal as the canons de 75m.

So very different kind of weapons, as there is many kind of Unit (French Legion with 300 Spanish Republican, troops from French Polynesia etc...).

[Jimi Hendrix]

 Will French Hope re-create;

The Battle of Dakar:
the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dakar

Also known as Operation Menace, an unsuccessful attempt in September 1940 by the Allies to capture the strategic port of Dakar in French West Africa.


  Vichy France

vs

United Kingdom
Australia
Free French Forces

 It would be interesting to see this battle as Vichy France vs The Free French



 

[THeTA0123]

These where probaly one of the most iconic units=
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Canon_de_75_modele_1897_used_at_Bir_Hakeim_modified_as_an_antitank_gun_on_pneumatic_wheels.jpg

They destroyed quite some panzers while still firing strong HE shells at advancing troops

from wiki=

The available equipment was also of diverse origin. There were 63 Bren Carriers, several trucks and two howitzers from the British, but most of the artillery pieces were French and came from the Levant: 54 75mm cannons (30 were used in an antitank role), 14 47 mm, 18 25 mm and 86 British-supplied Boys anti-tank rifles and 18 anti-aircraft Bofors 40 mm. Most of the infantry equipment was French, with 44 .81 or .90 mortars, 76 Hotchkiss machine guns, 96 anti-aircraft and 270 infantry FM 24/29 light machine guns.

By the way, is their a site wich has a full list of french equipment during WW2? or WW1? I was always intrested in them, but never found good sources


Also for French ammo kits the berthier carbine can be used

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthier_carbine

[Strat_84]

You can find informations about all the armored vehicles here (but it's in French):

http://www.chars-francais.net/

For the other weapons/equipments it's a long term diging job.  

edit: If I remember well, there are also very good articles by David Lehmann spread all over the Internet. I think I have a .pdf including a quite complete description of the French army of 1940 somewhere on my hard drive.

[Fabien]

We are actually mapping 4 maps, and 2/3 are in project

I leave you pleasure to conspiracy

[Eat Uranium]

That still leaves my most pressing desire unanswered: what infantry smallarms did they have (rifles, smgs, pistols etc.)