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Announcements => Developer Blogs => Topic started by: Ts4EVER on 12-06-2014, 12:06:10

Title: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 12-06-2014, 12:06:10
How to make an Eastern Front map

Hello and welcome to another FH2 devblog!
In this series we will be taking a look at the mapping process, our Russian static sets and some tips and tricks for custom mappers. We start at the beginning: planning and getting the basic stuff into the editor. This will not be a detailed technical tutorial: You are all grown men, figure it out yourselves. It is more about the process and where to start.

So where do you start? First you should ask yourself: What kind of map do I want to do?
In my case I wanted:
- A map with Russians and Germans in 1943 or 1944
- Tanks and infantry, but no airplanes
- Medium size
- Simple layout, easily and quickly finished

The last bit was important: I wanted to do a map that could be made into a testable state very fast. Generally speaking, the biggest time sinks in mapping are:
- Polishing (Nothing can be done here)
- Static placement

I decided to do a very rural map with complex terrain and forested areas, but no major settlements or fancy military installations. With this in mind, I started to do some research.

(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/15917985.jpg)

This picture was taken near the Dukla Pass area in northern Slovakia, close to the Polish border. In October 1944, Russian forces tried to force their way through the mountainous terrain here, which resulted in a huge tank battle in what was afterwards called the "valley of death". This being an awesome name for a metal band, I decided to base the map on this. As a bonus, it allowed me to do an autumn map. We don't have many of those and the Eastern Front lends itself to that kind of graphical style.
Before we can begin, another question:

What resolution will my map have?
This is a very important question and the reason why 90% of custom maps look horrible. You see, FH2 maps come at different resolutions. Some have very low resolutions, for example those made by Fenring. These maps tend to be very scaled, with exaggerated terrain features and a somewhat stylised approach. Think of Meuse River: There are three bridges directly next to each other in the town. No real life town looks like this, but ingame it looks very nice, since the whole map is scaled in the same resolution. Especially desert maps are often done like this, since they would all look like Alam Halfa otherwise.
Other maps have a high resolution, like those done by Knoffhoff, Otolikos or Mr Cheese. They use a much more naturalistic approach, being 1:1 copies of terrain or only slightly scaled.
Many custom maps mix scales and end up looking like crap. Usually these mappers use very scaled terrain (which is great for tournament play, since it lends itself to vehicle combat), but once they start doing a village or town area, they want to make Fall of Tobruk v2. There is a reason why the towns in Luttich or Meuse River are rather sparse, with few enterable buildings, compared to Brest or Lebisey.
Personally, I like high resolution maps, so I will use relatively unscaled terrain.

What will the layout of my map look like?

The wonders of Google Earth:

(http://i.imgur.com/zNT7zSe.png)

Make a rough gameplay plan using the measuring tools in Google Earth. Mark your flags and your combat area, then also measure a square around it, for the map borders. There are some basic rules of thumb:
- If you do a conquest map for public play, do not add more than 5 capturable flags
- If your push layout takes more than three sentences to explain, maybe it is too complicated
- In a sector push map, do not have more than 3 capturable flags per sector. 2 seems to be ideal.
- In a normal push map, there should not arise a situation where more than 4 flags at a time are "in play". If that is the case, maybe a conquest map would be more to your liking?
- In a normal push map, there should never be a situation where an attacking team has the bleed, while having to defend more flags than it has to attack

Since in my case the layout is fairly simplistic, there is not much to say about it. The Russians attack through the valley of death. They can choose to either drive right through the valley into the maw of the beast, or they sneak up over the ridge through the forest. There are both tank and infantry heavy areas.

I imported the Google Earth heightmap and made a colourmap with my plan on it:

(http://i.imgur.com/tcdFQEM.png)

Then the fun part begins...

How to make an Eastern Fron map - Part 2

Hello and welcome to the second part of this making-off/tutorial/tips-and-tricks/leak devblog. Today we will have a look at the second stage of mapping, a process I like to call:

Creating structuring terrain

"Structuring terrain" are the kind of terrain features that need to be created relatively early, since they determine the overall structure and layout of your map. Of course, small changes and detail work is done at later stages, but the major features of your map need to be created at the beginning.
The first one to mention here is the heightmap. As mentioned earlier, I imported one from Google Earth, so scratch that.
Next, have a look at the rough plan from the first blog. You may notice that there are five different elements to it:
- flags
- out of bounds area

These two are not important at this stage and can easily be added later.

- roads
- rivers
- forests

These are the three terrain features we will create now.

Creating roads

Do this early and do it well! In many custom maps, roads look awful, since the splines are just "painted" on the terrain. In real life, roads are added to terrain by humans, so they are cut though it or build on artificial dikes in order to create a level driving area. In order to do this easily, double the width of all road tiles you are using, then after placing them, move some of the nodules to disengage the road from the heightmap. Once that is done, press "apply spline" and set the road tile back to its normal width. You get something like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/B01D6Mr.png)

Now you can use the smooth tool to get rid of those sharp edges. It is easier to do this now than later, when you have walls or buildings placed near the roads already.
These roads also structure the map in gameplay terms, since they guide the players through the map and they connect the flagzones to each other. You can see this in my gameplay plan.

Rivers

This is where it got a bit complicated. The BF2 engine has only very limited possibilities for creating rivers, due to the way water works. It is easy to create big, wide rivers that stay on one level, but this map called for three separate rivers flowing down from the mountains in the form of small brooks. This is impossible to do in BF2, so instead I used the "terrace" method that you also see on St Vith. You make several levels or terraces of rivers and seperate them by water falls. It is not perfect, but about as good as it gets in this engine.

(http://i.imgur.com/zqGW6Jc.png)

Placing these is generally a big pain in the ass and it took me a while to sculpt the terrain for this to properly work. It was probably the hardest and most complicated aspect of this otherwise rather simple map. Note that this picture was taken after the fact, so the planning colourmap was already replaced with a nicer one. You can also spot a nice new wooden bridge static, which I believe was made by Krätzer. When placing bridges, always test in editor if you can easily cross it without hickups. Generally: run around on your map early and often! This way you get a sense of lines of sight and distances. Planning is all good and well, but you can't make a map from the bird's eye perspective.

Forests

Making forests is very easy... in theory. In practice, people fuck it up constantly. But first of all, a look at forests in general:
Prior to FH2.4, forests were not actually a big part of Forgotten Hope maps. The reason for that is simple: Bocage. Bocage is the most awesome vegitation for every mapper, since it makes it very easy to structure your maps. You can easily bar player progress or deny lines of sight without it seeming artificial or unrealistic. In fact, Bocage is artificial, since it was made by humans. You can easily compartmentalize your maps and predetermine the paths of players by placing gaps in Bocage. It's great.
However, it can't be used outside of Normandy, at least not in large quantities. Compare the rural area of a Normandy map like Villers Bocage to Vossenack and you see that there are worlds of differences. Most Ardennes and Germany maps are structured differently, by dividing the maps in open fields and forests.
Forests have always been well liked by custom mappers, since they have one key advantage over Bocage: They can be automatically generated. While you have to place every hedge by hand, you can just preprogram your favourite trees in the overgrowth tool, set a  density and paint away. Don't know what to place in an area? Make a forest. Too little cover? A few trees should fix it. That meadow looks a bit empty? TREES!

I don't need to tell you that this kind of lazy mapping brings you less than good maps, both graphically and gameplay wise.
Have you noticed that while most Ardennes maps have forest areas, only one map, Hurtgen Forest, actually has a majority of flags and gameplay areas INSIDE a forest? That's because forest fighting is not necessarily all that much fun. The trees limit your lines of sight, but not in a logical, predictable way like the Bocage hedges, but in a chaotic, random way. In an effort to make their forests look thick, custom mappers often program in a lot of small trees, with low hanging branches, which exacerbates this problem. On top of that, thick overgrowth and many different overgrowth types are poison for your map's performance.
Look at the forests on Hurtgen forest, Vossenack or Bastogne and you will notice that they all work like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/6MNfQNW.png)

There are two different kind of forest really: A thick one for the edges, with small trees and low hanging branches, and a more sparse one for the middle, with large, tall trees that have no branches below their crowns. This approach has several advantages:
- less trees overall: better performance
- realism: Trees in the center of the forest don't have low branches, because light doesn't reach down there
- Clearer gameplay for players: You can hide behind trees and in bushes, but whole squads don't run past each other
- Looks neat

These are the major terrain features. Before we end this installment, some thoughts on two smaller topics that come a bit later, but fit in here.

Undergrowth

Undergrowth is an extension of texture, NOT an object. Do not place thick undergrowth to hide players like they are Velociraptors in Jurassic Park. This seems like a good idea at first, but in practice:
- Some graphical settings do not properly display undergrowth
- It means you can't see shit if you lie down as infantry
- It lags out your map (side note: NEVER MAKE UNDERGROWTH DENSER THAN 1.0)
Personally, I like my grass like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/C9blqZp.png)

Subtle, but it lends depth to the texture.

Last but not least, in absence of Bocage:

Ditches

Ditches are wonderful. You can use them to graphically highlight roads, fields or even boundaries between farms. They serve as guiding terrain for infantry, as well as cover. Make sure to mark them a bit by using a different texture inside them, like dirt or mud.

(http://i.imgur.com/rpL0sNM.png)

You can also see the new "russian stickfence" static set in this one.

Next up:
Static placement and flagzone layout.

How to make an Eastern Front map - Part 3 (Subpart A)

Hello and welcome to the third part of this blog series. Today we will take a look at static placement and flagzone layout. Indidentally, this is the step many custom mappers do quite well in, since it profits most from gameplay experience. Sadly, if you done the first two steps wrong, your map is still going to suck.

Making a rural eastern European village

At the moment we have two Russian static sets in FH2 beta: rural and urban. The urban one is still relatively sparse, but we don't need it for this map anyway. The map is completely agricultural, with only a small industrial/warehouse style area near the German main. In terms of layout you need to realize that many of the layout guidelines for French or Belgian villages do not apply anymore. Western European villages were mostly structured around large, two storey stone houses, placed relatively close together along some kind of main street. Behind them are rows of walls that divide small lots of gardens and yards, with some smaller barns or sheds thrown in. The towns on Villers Bocage are probably the perfect example for this kind of layout, but you can see it on Omaha Beach, Vossenack, Purple Heart Lane etc...
The Russian rural static set in contrast consists of small, hut-like structures and one storey block houses. This alone means longer lines of sight and less cover for infantry. In a typical villages, these buildings are built a lot farther away from each other, with fences rather than stonewalls surrounding them. This creates a different gameplay flow that takes some getting used to.

(http://i.imgur.com/Sfqifsr.png)

You have to keep this in mind, even though the general gameplay guidelines still apply of course.

The flagzone

Designing good flagzones is possibly the most important task in mapping. Flagzones are where the action happens and where most players will naturally gravitate towards them.
Closed buildings get kind of a bad rep in the community. As far as some people are concerned, every building should be enterable. I disagree with this. For one thing, there are performance concerns, but there are also gameplay reasons for limiting the amount of open buildings, namely easier to understand structure and less clutter. Personally, when I plan a village like this, I will concentrate the open buildings in the flagzones, in order to give players something to attack/defend. But before we look at this in more depth: The second reason I place open buildings is to provide what I call "key terrain". This means a terrain feature that is not in a flagzone, but is very beneficial for players to control. Reasons may include:

- You can directly shoot from there into the flagzone or into an important approach/choke point leading to it
- You can hide in there as a squad leader to provide a forward spawn point for your squad during an attack
- You can hide there from long range fire while travelling between two flagzones

The rest of the buildings I usually leave closed.

Now back to the actual flagzones. They need to be fun to fight in and they need to be distinct. This means a player should easily be able to tell where he is and which building is the objective by looking at it for a second. Most FH2 flagzones are based around what I call "objective statics". Sometimes these are made especially for the map, usually churches or similar landmarks. However, there are also generic statics that often show up in flagzones simply because they instantly provide interesting gameplay, like for example that double house you find on almost every bulge map. These statics have these things in common:

- They are open
- They are large and stand out
- They have two or more entrances
- They have several windows

This last point is actually very important: If you place statics with limited entrances and no windows in your flagzone, you will get party-bunker syndrome. Bunkers (duh) and church towers often cause this. It's why I closed of the church tower on Omaha btw. I didn't want the Americans to fail at the last flag on this map, just because some asshole sl was pooping out soldiers in that tower...
Anyway, let's look at the four flagzones we have and which objective statics I used:

Kruzlova North

(http://i.imgur.com/kv7ydhl.png)

This is the school house static and it is quite nice, because it fullfills all of the requirements: While it has no second storey, it still stands out as special between the smaller huts. I also additionally marked it as an important area by making it into kind of a fortress: There are stone walls around it, which are more unusual here than in Normandy, and I marked the front entrance with little wooden poles.

(http://i.imgur.com/2OmOjSH.png)

This is the second, more sneaky entrance. You can also see how the layout of the static influences the layout of the area around it. There is an opening in the stone wall that lines up with this entrance, meaning people can rush in there without the flow of movement being broken. A little rabbit hutch area can be used as cover if you come under fire from the windows.

Kruzlova South

This area is a bit more complex and dominated by this khalkoz farm, made by Nissi:

(http://i.imgur.com/xxfx10V.jpg)

This was originally made for a Kursk map, but it fits here too. What makes this building so useful is that it comes with a bunch of smaller, modular pieces, mostly cow feeders and the like. Together with the other rural statics, like piles of manure, buckets and grainbags, you can easily sculpt the large inside part to your liking, which is something that is not necessarily possible in the smaller rooms of normal houses. If you look at the flagzone, you can see how it is the one place that actually has two storey buildings, making it stand out and also tactically valuable:

(http://i.imgur.com/LMzDL9H.png)

While the khalkoz farm is the main objective building, there are actually some auxiliary open buildings around it, making the flagzone more dynamic and complex. I also included a little sniper's nest in the barn, with a G43 ZF for player use.

What these two flagzones have in common is that they are relatively infantry centred, being part of the Kruzlova village. In contrast, the remaining two flags were designed with tank combat in mind, but more on that next time.

You can find the last part here:

http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19731.msg327006#msg327006
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: NTH on 12-06-2014, 15:06:04
... you stop mapping to have a schnapps and write a blog about it?



Good writing on the rules of thumb for conquest/push, etc modes.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 12-06-2014, 15:06:40
Who let you out of your cage?!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Turkish007 on 12-06-2014, 16:06:14
Nice to see how a map is made!  :D Hope the next part comes soon.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 12-06-2014, 17:06:24
Cool work, and thanks Ts4EVER.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 12-06-2014, 18:06:02
Awww yeaaaa devblog time! ;D
I was hoping to see something like this again. I hope this can show all the way to te end of the mapping process too and give some inspiration to our custom mappers out there.

Very interesting idea about mapping resolution. I'd never heard about that before. Although Fenring's maps are very good, I think I enjoy high resolution more.

- In a normal push map, there should never be a situation where an attacking team has the bleed, while having to defend more flags than it has to attack

Somebody should tell this to Bardia and Girarabub. :P

Can't wait to see the next few parts of this. 
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: TASSER on 12-06-2014, 19:06:10
Good stuff man! Really appreciate the insight into map design: level of detail, scaling, flag layout. Stuff the casual player doesn't think about at all.

It's things like this that help us appreciate just how much thought and work goes into map making.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: NTH on 12-06-2014, 22:06:56
Who let you out of your cage?!

What are you rambling on about?!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Mudzin on 13-06-2014, 11:06:02
So, only 4 flags?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 13-06-2014, 12:06:01
Yes. In my experience, 4 or 5 flags are ideal for conquest maps.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Mudzin on 14-06-2014, 01:06:00
Well, 5 flags is perfect, but I don't like when theres even number of flags... I think always 1 team must be on bleed.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: jan_kurator on 14-06-2014, 02:06:05
Tests will show what's the best, this map is in early beta stage.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 14-06-2014, 14:06:43
We will test the map tomorrow for the first time.

edit: which is lucky, cause it means I can spend my free time on devblogging while waiting for the test session ;)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 14-06-2014, 18:06:46
We will test the map tomorrow for the first time.

edit: which is lucky, cause it means I can spend my free time on devblogging while waiting for the test session ;)

Niiiiice. That means we get to see what the fun part is? :)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Hjaldrgud on 14-06-2014, 21:06:45
Lovely devblog :D
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 15-06-2014, 16:06:07
First post updated.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: RAnDOOm on 15-06-2014, 17:06:40
Nice insight Ts4EVER.

Thanks for sharing this.   8)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: TASSER on 15-06-2014, 18:06:33
Awesome dev blog. Really enjoying reading through this!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 15-06-2014, 20:06:33
Bravo Ts4EVER, thanks! Hopefully this will teach other mappers too! ;)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 15-06-2014, 23:06:50
This is great, I love these devblogs. The tips are really good and the order of operations is really helpful. Someone should but this in a list of tutorials when it's finished; along with this http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=574.0 (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=574.0) 8)

I wish Knoffhoff had time to finish Prokhorovka so we could see basically the same devblog from different mapping styles. These are the most fun :)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 16-06-2014, 01:06:01
Bravo Ts4EVER, thanks! Hopefully this will teach other mappers too! ;)

I hope so too, cause we really need mappers...
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Rabbit032 on 22-06-2014, 01:06:09
How many mappers are there currently?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 22-06-2014, 02:06:52
Dunno, but not enough.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 22-06-2014, 22:06:00
First post was updated.  8)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: valleyman on 23-06-2014, 05:06:56
Loved the update.  It is getting me very excited!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Doc_Wade on 23-06-2014, 10:06:06
Wow, can't wait, hold on !  ;)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Surfbird on 23-06-2014, 10:06:12
Very nice and interesting, thanks!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Oberst on 23-06-2014, 11:06:11
Nice work! Keep the updates coming!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: TASSER on 23-06-2014, 12:06:56
Wow TS, you're really coming along with the map! Awesome write ups, can tell you're really putting a lot of effort into this blog. That certainly doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated. Keep it up!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 23-06-2014, 15:06:15
Very nicely done, again, Ts4EVER! That was an awesome static by Nissi, congrats to him also.

The only thing that caught my eye was that last image, the road/spline appeared out of place, maybe too bright of a road?
As being it's a Eastern Front farm'ish area, a dirt road with tracks should do just fine to simulate some tractors that just drove by. ;)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Nissi on 23-06-2014, 15:06:48
The editor colors are very misleading, the following pic shows how the road works ingame

(http://abload.de/img/unbenannt_14bbsru.jpg)

Note that none of the objects are lightmapped on the screenshot... and therefore looks quite strange.  ;)

edit: thanks Ts for the blog.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 23-06-2014, 16:06:07
Ok, thanks. It looks great now. :)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: LuckyOne on 23-06-2014, 21:06:09
Great job!


... Although I'd argue that the SL pooping minions is just a basic gameplay mechanic flaw that forces a certain mapping style to counter. So instead of fixing the (real) problem you try to go around it by purposely limiting your mapping freedom.

Anyway, can't wait to see how this will play out! Especially the infantry gameplay. Hopefully better than Russkie FH1 maps, I always found the combined maps a bit bland to play as infantry.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 26-06-2014, 13:06:02
How to make an Eastern Front map - Part 3 (Subpart B)

Hello, and welcome to the continuation of part 3. This time we will take a look at two rather tank heavy flags, at spawn points, mainbase design and pickup kit placement.

If you consult the gameplay plan at the top of this post, you will see that the map is roughly divided in two areas. This is a tried and true way of mapping, the best example being de_dust from Counter Strike. On that map, both teams have a choice at the beginning: They can either go into the dark and chaotic close combat area, or into the overpass area, which is dominated more by long range weapons. On Dukla Pass, you can choose between the village, which is more conductive to infantry fighting, or the valley of death area, which is a tank arena.
The control of either area gives you some advantages. Whoever holds the village gets a light anti tank vehicle (Marder or SU76M), whereas the tank area gives you access to dominant positions to shoot into the village and the opportunity to trap German tank reinforcements in their mainbase. For this, the following flag is important:

(http://i.imgur.com/qdrBBpp.png)

Farm

This farm building lies astride the main road leading from the German main and guards the most direct way over one of the three creeks. While the rivers are generally very small and easily fordable with tanks in many places, the area here is relatively rough, limiting and somewhat choke pointing tank movement. For the Germans it is vital to hold this farm.
If you have a look at the flagzone itself, you will notice that it is dominated by another objective static. This barn static is actually a favourite of mine: It has three distinct entrances, a cool raised element and it is roomy enough to place additional statics in it to really make it your own. Another small open hut and a little open shed round out this flag area. Even though there are three open buildings in it, it isn't really the best place for infantry to be. It is overlooked by open hills from both sides, making it easy for tanks to dominate it. On top of that, the area around it is relatively sparse, unless you count the forests, so infantry will have a hard time making it into the flagzone from their spawn areas, if tanks are overwatching. The flagzone purposefully extends to the road, so tanks can easily cap it on their way from the mainbase, without having to maneuvre around stone walls.

The second flagzone is even more tank centric:

(http://i.imgur.com/EWovoWC.png)

Valley of Death

It is called "valley of death" and as you can see, it is the only flagzone without a proper objective static. Instead, it consists of shell holes, trenches and hidden foxholes and some tank wrecks randomly scattered about. There are some static weapons guarding the way from the Russian mainbase, which will be mostly in play at the beginning of rounds and relatively useless later. This is tank terrain!
That being said, the flag features what I think is the best infantry defensive position we have ingame: the crater.
Craters are awesome. They are the reason I like Alam Halfa and Sidi Rezegh.
- They feature 360 degrees of cover
- They let you switch from cover to 360 degree fighting positions, and all that WHILE lying down
- They all look the same, so it can be really hard to locate snipers and such with any certainty, especially after respawning
In this case I opted to go for a few big ones, instead of many small ones, but it is something to keep in mind. As a sniper, I will prefer a crater to a church tower any day.

The mainbases

Compared to capturable flags, mainbases are pretty much no brainers, but there are some guidelines:
- Vehicles must be easily able to leave them without fancy maneuvring
- Soldier spawns should be placed so that the players see some useful options either:
- looking directly at vehicles
- or pickup kits
- or seeing the initial paths to the enemy

One big thing everybody complains about is baserape. Frankly, I care very little about this. I don't care if people shoot into ABC areas and I design them in a way that assumes that people will shoot into them. In my eyes, the ABC areas are not there to prevent people from shooting enemy forces in them, but to prevent them from maneuvring into positions from which they can directly and easily shoot at spawn points or spawning vehicles. It is not my job to ensure that players can leave their base unmolested after they got themselves trapped in it like idiots. If you prevent people from shooting at the ABC area, they will just camp 50 metres further back and you have the same problem.

Russian main

(http://i.imgur.com/bwDh0Zp.png)

This layout is very simplistic. I don't subscribe to the school of thought that every vehicle needs to be placed under a camo net or somesuch. In my eyes that often ends up looking more fake than just placing them on the road they will drive down. This way it looks like a tank convoy stopped for a last time before the attack, so that the tankers can enjoy a last vodka/bier/tea. The infantry all spawn down in the tents, roughly the same distance from the tanks, looking directly at them.

Pickup kits

Pickup kits are one of the least standardized aspect of FH2 mapping, so what I am writing here is my own personal opinion on the matter. I place pickup kits to be used. One small thing I am really proud of on Omaha is that on a full server, almost every kit will get used, including stuff like deployable MGs. For instance, when you spawn in Vierville you are instantly faced by a Panzerschreck, a G41 and a Lafette on a bunch of boxes. Tanks and other vehicles are marked on the map, so I don't see why I would hide kits away from the player.

- Place kits near the spawn points or in high traffic areas
- Place kits where they will be useful
- Place a selection of kits in each mainbase
- Place them highly visible on boxes or tables

I don't place novelty kits like bare hand kits, angry farmer kits or that one kit nobody has found yet, not because I am opposed to them in principle, but because I think jokes are best only told once.
In case of the Russian main, there are a bunch of pickup kits available in the tents, like a scoped automatic rifle and a PPS43 assault kit, for that tank riding experience. Might add an AT rifle too, once we get these, so people can snipe the 88mm gun down in the village from the top of the hill with it... ;D

German main

(http://i.imgur.com/AuPrJkZ.png)

This is a bit more complicated, mostly to prevent spawn rape, but the same principles apply: The German tanks can easily maneuvre out of their hidden positions and all pickup kits are right out in the open. It is hard to see, but there is also an 88mm gun for additional protection. You can also shell the farm flag with it.

Since you are always interested in assets, this is the preliminary tank layout:

The Russians get 5 T34/85 (early version) + a Katjusha
The Germans get 2 Panthers, 2 Panzer IVHs, 1 StuGIV

I might replace the StuG IV with a Panzer IV/70.
Both sides get some transports, but I personally don't like small vehicles like jeeps etc.

Spawn points

There is no effective way to prevent spawn rape in BF2. In later BF games you have stuff like ray checks, but all you can do in this case is make it as hard as possible. A good rule of thumb is 5 - 8 spawn points per flag. More than that and you probably have too much clutter around it. As you may have noticed on Omaha, I like to have distinct "spawn areas" where the spawn points are concentrated, but in a way that one person cannot camp them all at once. I think people should be able to at least predict the general area where they will spawn or from where respawning enemies will assault them. This leads to more tactical choices and clearer gameplay.
For a typical spawning area we will take a look at the valley of death flag:

(http://i.imgur.com/X6XY6KQ.png)

This is a small wood cutters camp with an open building to spawn in. With additional spawn points in the shell holes. The spawns are protected from long range fire by the ridgeline to the north and a thick forest to the south. A bunch of craters serve as cover on the way into the flagzone. Some AT kits are in the area for additional tank defeating power. You should generally always also design covered ways between the flagzone and the spawning area, so infantry can reach it... unless of course the enemy is guarding these approaches.
Two things you should never do:
- Place spawn points inside the flagzone
- Place spawn points in key terrain buildings (to remind you: buildings outside of flagzones that are valuable to control)
Generally speaking: If you want an area to be an interesting fighting stage, do NOT place spawn points in there. Rather have you spawning areas a bit on the sidelines, without any inherent value except for the spawn points, obviously.

This concludes this series for now. The map is in a pretty advanced stage and some changes were already made based on testing. I am pretty confident in how it works and maybe I will make another blog about the finishing process in the future, even though that would probably be rather technical. For now, there is another map I need to get to this level...

(http://i.imgur.com/EUsK3qm.png)

Discuss...
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Harmonikater on 26-06-2014, 14:06:43
Just out of curiosity, do you guys lightmap with Editor or with 3dsmax?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 26-06-2014, 15:06:52
Fantastic TS! That last shot could be "road to Berlin" perhaps? ;) I also, saw that the Panther received a new skin, very nice.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 26-06-2014, 21:06:40
Amazing updates TS :) you have a real knack for writing tutorials. That was the best I've ever seen the idea of BF2 mapping broken down and presented to me. A lot of people can go into the editor and create a working map, but it takes a lot of design and know how to do it well 8) I hope this gives some new people the itch to make a map like I have now :P
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: FORGOTTENKEVINOHOPE on 27-06-2014, 20:06:33
this might help  matt .....  (http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/73/29/53/08/0073295308812_500X500.jpg)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-06-2014, 18:06:39
That reminds me:

A comparison between the plan and the latest (still WIP) beta minimap:

(http://i.imgur.com/tcdFQEM.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/rHjBI9g.jpg)

The map is 2x2km btw.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 28-06-2014, 18:06:45
Damn nice detail :o you can see pretty clearly how well that matched up to the plan you originally had.

2km x 2km. For comparison's sake, isn't PHL that big? and what's El Al?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-06-2014, 18:06:48
All FH2 maps are either 1x1km or 2x2km. The only exception was the old verison of Bardia I think, that was 512x512.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Stubbfan on 28-06-2014, 20:06:01
Sfakia is 512x1 (alas 512x512). Not sure if any other map is scale 1, i think ramelle was, but was later changed to x2 for performance.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-06-2014, 21:06:28
Damn nice detail :o you can see pretty clearly how well that matched up to the plan you originally had.

Planning is half the battle.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: PapillonFH on 29-06-2014, 17:06:33
Looks great!
Could you go into a little more detail on how you export the Heightmap from Google Earth?
I did fail quite miserably tbh...
And yes, the lightmapping question would be interesting for me too :-)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 29-06-2014, 17:06:36
I only lightmap in the editor.

About google earth, you can get the heightmaps here:

http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/

Download the dem files here, open them with microdem, cut out the part you want and convert to black and white .raw. That way you can just use it as BF2 heightmap. You will probably have to smooth it over in the editor.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 30-06-2014, 17:06:05
Just fantastic map comparison Ts4EVER. Great job!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 06-07-2014, 23:07:49
Today we tested the 16p mode on this. It was quite fun, but some issues still remain. The 16p layer focuses on the village. It is a pushmap witht he Russians attacking. They get an Su76M and a wheeled maxim for support.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Oberst on 07-07-2014, 14:07:45
How does the wheeled maxim work? Like a lafette kit or more like a pushable AT-gun? How fast are you then and how well pretected are you? Dev Blog about the Maxim anyone?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 07-07-2014, 14:07:11
It works like a pushable at gun. If you want, I can grab some screens later.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 07-07-2014, 17:07:02
Ok, Maxim on wheels:

(http://i.imgur.com/k2W8GYF.jpg)

While pushing:

(http://i.imgur.com/dKREQuH.jpg)

You can actually push it pretty fast atm, I don't know if that will be changed. I would say at about walking speed.

Iron Sights:

(http://i.imgur.com/DaSunuX.jpg)

On a related note, I didn't really like how the StuGIV skin looked on this map:

(http://i.imgur.com/mKwfs63.jpg)

It is very bright, which looks good on St. Lo, but not so much in these light settings. As you may have noticed, we have three basic western Europe paint schemes for tanks and other vehicles: The bright Normandy ones, darker Autumn colours and winter. I decided to try and reskin the StuG IV in the autumn colour scheme:

(http://i.imgur.com/z1sb7Bp.jpg)

As you can see, it fits in better now.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Godall on 07-07-2014, 17:07:33
Ts4EVER а Maxim can be moved? Yes, but his armor protects the shooter or an improvisation?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 07-07-2014, 17:07:16
You mean the gunshield? It works like on any at gun.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Godall on 07-07-2014, 17:07:24
You mean the gunshield? It works like on any at gun.
Thanks me like news))
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: TASSER on 07-07-2014, 17:07:08
Maxim looks awesome, I had really hoped it would be used the way you're describing TS. I'm pumped.

Nice job on the Stug skin too. Very nice touch.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: PanzerKnacker on 07-07-2014, 18:07:41
Looks excellent, Ts! ;D
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Turkish007 on 07-07-2014, 18:07:19
Very nice, love the maxim and the new StuG skin!  :) How do the guys who push and shoot look from outside? That would also be great to see.

And one more question, is the map set in dawn or dusk?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Mudzin on 07-07-2014, 18:07:57
Oh, great for the Stug. I was just planning to make a texture for it. Seems I don't have to anymore! :)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Airshark79 on 07-07-2014, 20:07:05
I always enjoy more stugs!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 07-07-2014, 20:07:31
Great Ts4Ever! Always enjoy these blogs.

Is it just me, or the map looks a bit too red or perhaps too much saturation?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Oberst on 07-07-2014, 21:07:15
I am guessing in firing position you lay down behind the Maxim (like the Cannone 47/32), while standing when pushing? Does the shield provide any cover?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Mudzin on 07-07-2014, 21:07:31
I guess it will take ages to reach the frontline by simply pushing it...
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Turkish007 on 07-07-2014, 22:07:11
Great Ts4Ever! Always enjoy these blogs.

Is it just me, or the map looks a bit too red or perhaps too much saturation?

Yes, almost like its sunrise, but thats easy to fix (or not even a bad thing) I guess.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 10-07-2014, 19:07:27
I guess it will take ages to reach the frontline by simply pushing it...

Yes, one should not place it in mainbases.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 03-08-2014, 02:08:09
Thought you would like an update on this. The map is nearing completion. This week I made the lightmaps, hemimap, envmaps, custom color correction, trench skirt blending and other polishing stuff. This is what Dukla Pass looks like in the latest beta:

(http://i.imgur.com/ogaaVQx.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/BeREoU2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WmdVfQS.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/hQiCMOg.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/m04ewcd.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/BG6qqXM.jpg)

Enjoy!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: valleyman on 03-08-2014, 05:08:00
holy shit
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Miklas on 03-08-2014, 08:08:33
Looks very very nice. Definitely feels like eastern Europe.
Is that the Russian player model we see (parts of it at least)?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Doc_Wade on 03-08-2014, 10:08:16
Soooo nice !  :D
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-08-2014, 12:08:35
I can't wait to give it a spin with 64+ players. The terrain will allow for some pretty epic tank battles.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 03-08-2014, 13:08:40
Is that the Russian player model we see (parts of it at least)?

Yes, the Russian player models are done. One of them has a beard!  ;D
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Oberst on 03-08-2014, 14:08:02
Will there be ridable bears?  ;)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: TASSER on 03-08-2014, 15:08:40
Yes, the Russian player models are done. One of them has a beard!  ;D

OH HELL YEAH!!!

The lighting looks excellent too. Going for an early dawn look?

Also, since this is an autumn map, have you considered Hurgten-esque atmospheric sounds for the forested areas? Wind rustling leaves etc.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: PoliorcetE on 03-08-2014, 17:08:06
hi all

just beautiful , nice
good job

A+
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Turkish007 on 03-08-2014, 17:08:40
Is that the Russian player model we see (parts of it at least)?

Yes, the Russian player models are done. One of them has a beard!  ;D

Excellent! Did Zero make them?  :)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 03-08-2014, 18:08:19
No, apparently it was pointblank.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Godall on 03-08-2014, 20:08:53
Ts4EVER, Dasis Fantastish!!! :o
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: pizzzaman on 03-08-2014, 22:08:35
Holy shit, wow. FH2 needs more autumn maps look at this beauty!  :)

Also, will this be the first Eastern Front map showcased on a news update?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 03-08-2014, 22:08:34
Yeah, probably, although there is another one also pretty close to being finished.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Surfbird on 03-08-2014, 23:08:49
Looking forward to this, good job!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 03-08-2014, 23:08:39
Looking very nice, can't wait to see more!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Mudzin on 03-08-2014, 23:08:26
Looks nice, but we will see how good it is when we will be able to play it, because gameplay is the most important!  :)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: hitm4k3r on 03-08-2014, 23:08:27
Yep, and that's actually the most difficult thing when you don't have enough testers. You can apply certain rules and work a bit with experience, but the real test comes with the first public matches. But on the other hand do we have the launcher to fix balance problems. So we can stay relaxed.  ;)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Godall on 04-08-2014, 18:08:48
Yeah, probably, although there is another one also pretty close to being finished.

You can show how will look like the soldiers of the Red Army?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 04-08-2014, 22:08:50
Yeah, probably, although there is another one also pretty close to being finished.

You can show how will look like the soldiers of the Red Army?

These will be shown in a real news update.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Godall on 04-08-2014, 22:08:32
Yeah, probably, although there is another one also pretty close to being finished.

You can show how will look like the soldiers of the Red Army?

These will be shown in a real news update.

How soon? We are waiting for a long time.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 04-08-2014, 23:08:03
Probably shortly before the release to get some hype going.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: xinguixi on 05-08-2014, 09:08:46
Has the sound effect of Red Army soldiers been edit ? Is it the same compared with other army ? for example the voice when they be shot , I am curious..... ??? By the way , I has been concern the production schedule of fh2 all the time. thanks the fh2 devs, you guys' work always surprise me.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: psykfallet on 05-08-2014, 15:08:51
Has the sound effect of Red Army soldiers been edit ? Is it the same compared with other army ? for example the voice when they be shot , I am curious..... ??? By the way , I has been concern the production schedule of fh2 all the time. thanks the fh2 devs, you guys' work always surprise me.
They will be using the same as in Fh1/Bf1942
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 12-08-2014, 20:08:26
I just cant make heightmap for Editor.I try to use your tutorials,looked on internet,but cant make.I hope i will make because im losing my optimistic for mapping
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: krautkiller on 12-08-2014, 23:08:03
Many maps like this one , have many details for landscape.
These maps are better then the normal maps we pay for ingame.
Every meter is leveld, landscape goes a little bit up or down.
Soldiers can use this as advantage or disadvantage.

I have many respect for team and all the work they put in to this!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 12-08-2014, 23:08:08
I just cant make heightmap for Editor.I try to use your tutorials,looked on internet,but cant make.I hope i will make because im losing my optimistic for mapping

Well if you lose your motivation after a week already, maybe this isn't the hobby for you.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Mudzin on 12-08-2014, 23:08:07
I just cant make heightmap for Editor.I try to use your tutorials,looked on internet,but cant make.I hope i will make because im losing my optimistic for mapping

Patience is the key to victory in bf2 mapping. I suggest to join one of the mapping teams of fh2 communities - WaW or Forgotten Honor. At the beginning of your mapping tour you will often have many questions which might not be always answered quickly here...
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Wasntmenl on 14-08-2014, 00:08:00
The initial learning curve for mapping is huge, escpecially in bf2/fh2. Mudzin made a great reccomendation for joining up with a community in which maps are activily made. For my first map for the Forgottenhonor tournament I received loads of help from the community and even some (future/ex) fh2 devs. My first map (Etna Line) took 200+ hours to make and the quality was even so-so. Now I can make such a map in a far shorter ammount of time deu to practice and understanding. Of game mechanics, spawn placement, and just how the overall editor and supporting programs work. (Such as importing a google earth image as a base layer to make your map on)

TS4EVER Also has a really valid point. If you easily give up in the face of advesities than mapping is not for you. But still having a helpfull active community who helps you can be tremendous for your motivation (at least it was for me) 
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: pvtgmerpyleusmc on 16-08-2014, 05:08:46
Undergrowth is an extension of texture, NOT an object. Do not place thick undergrowth to hide players like they are Velociraptors in Jurassic Park.

I laughed so hard I almost peed myself when I read that line.  Great tutorial on mapping.  I'm looking forward to playing it.
Title: Re: How to fix an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 27-02-2016, 22:02:14
Hello and welcome to a follow-up installment to this devblog.
Theory and plans are one side of the coin, however, a map also has to always withstand the scrutiny of actually being played, lots of times, on a full server, by many different players. With 2.5 out for a few weeks now, it is time to make a first analysis of how the map works.
To make it short: I am not completely happy with it. Why is that?

While there are exceptions, most of the rounds on the 64p version on Dukla Pass follow a clear pattern:
1. The Russians take a foothold in the village (usually the schoolhouse).
2. Since the way from the mainbase to the front is very long, all Russian infantry spawns there from now on.
3. A huge meatgrinder in the village ensues.
4. From time to time someone will sneak over to the farmstead and capture it, only for the Germans to get it back immediately with the tanks from their mainbase.
5. If the occasional tank wanders into the valley of death, it has no infantry support and gets destroyed by AT guns or Germans with Panzerfausts ambushing them from the woods.

This makes for a fairly boring experience. On the bright side, the long range tank engagements are very fun and personally I enjoy the long range fighting as infantry as well. However, it seems that for many people, the map plays more like a desert map and especially for less experienced players, it is very hard to judge where you are "safe" and where literally the whole German Wehrmacht can shoot you from one hill over.
In addition to these problems, I had misjudged the tank balance quite considerably. I was always under the impression that the T34/85 was about the equivalent of a Panther (give and take a few numbers). However, this is apparently not the case, even with the upcoming buff to the 85mm main gun.

So I had three objectives:
- Buff the Russian side
- Make life at least a little bit easier for the infantry
- Give alternatives to the village meatgrinder

As a result of this, the following changes will be implemented in an upcoming balance patch (date will be announced later):

(http://i.imgur.com/wXOe4SR.png)

Add forward infantry spawns for the Russians, one for valley of death, one for Kruzlova.

(http://i.imgur.com/7q9GrTS.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/krTvpKp.png)

Add more hard cover in the forested areas and make the forests significantly thicker (more trees). Cover will be concentrated around spawn areas, in areas from where snipers or mgs might want to shoot and along paths taken by aggressive infantry players: along the river beds and in the forest near the schoolhouse (you know which one).

(http://i.imgur.com/M0HV9bR.png)

Significantly increase the number of Russian tanks, especially if they have not yet captured a flag. Likewise, 1 of the Panzer IVs will be turned into a StuG and the second Panther will only spawn if the Germans lose their flags (along with the captured T34).

Together, I hope these changes will make the map a lot more enjoyable.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 27-02-2016, 23:02:03
Really nice devblog TS. I like the changes. This is the benefit of having an active mapper and the updater ;)
Title: Re: How to fix an Eastern Front map
Post by: nysä on 28-02-2016, 00:02:35
Likewise, 1 of the Panzer IVs will be turned into a StuG

I realize you are a man of vision, but any chance for a StuH? There were deployed during the battle, from 24.PzD and 300, 301, 311 StuG brigades.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: CaptainJax on 28-02-2016, 01:02:46
I was wondering, will the Eastern Front maps ever be made compatible with co-op? The FH2 mod is kinda dead, but I still love playing around with bots. But alas, Mother Russia maps are not available.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-02-2016, 01:02:04
Well there are 50 people online right now, so maybe you don't need bots just yet. That being said, there is an unofficial sp patch in the singleplayer forums.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 28-02-2016, 01:02:59
Well there are 50 people online right now, so maybe you don't need bots just yet. That being said, there is an unofficial sp patch in the singleplayer forums.

In fact, there were 100 players last time I checked.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Darman on 28-02-2016, 13:02:28
@Ts4EVER: It is in a strange way hilarious that I encountered almost exactly the same issues when testing the map with Bots ;D I also had to add a forward spawn in the woods for infantry right away and I also had to adjust the spawn behaviour to to tackle the Kruzlova carnage. I had to buff the russians by adding in more heavy tanks and reduce AT guns to make these tanks less vulnerable at choke points.

I was wondering, will the Eastern Front maps ever be made compatible with co-op? The FH2 mod is kinda dead, but I still love playing around with bots. But alas, Mother Russia maps are not available.

You can check out the Singleplayer forums, I have made a downloadable installer for all new maps with Bot support. Won't overwrite anything. HERE (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=20690.0) you go.

EDIT: Just noticed, as Ts4EVER already pointed out.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 28-02-2016, 22:02:02
About the StuH: probably not, since I would only place that on a map that has the corresponding StuG (for texture load) and imo it fits better on a map where they Germans are on the offensive and need to blast people our of buildings.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 29-02-2016, 12:02:57
Like changes!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: nysä on 29-02-2016, 16:02:14
About the StuH: probably not, since I would only place that on a map that has the corresponding StuG (for texture load) and imo it fits better on a map where they Germans are on the offensive and need to blast people our of buildings.

Sounds reasonable.
Historically, the StuK 40 was struggling to deal with the newer Soviet armour (head-on), when the StuH 42 was capable of KO'ing 'em left and right. But I realize the StuH is more of a bunker buster in the game.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Oberst on 29-02-2016, 17:02:56
Nice devblog! Enjoy the thoughts someone puts in. A little bit more cover here and there won't hurt, but on the other way I like the look of the map, because it feels so realistic and I never found it too hard to get relatively safely from one point to the other - atleast on public most of the people don't coordinate so well.

For me incluiding another two T34/84 and two Su76 sounds a little too much in my opinion, but maybe I am wrong. what the map lacks was transport in my opinion. A few amored cars or DT carriers wouldn't have hurt.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 29-02-2016, 20:02:07
I think this is one of most realistic ambient and enviroment in FH2!
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 23-08-2016, 18:08:29
Hi!
The updated version of the map has been out for 2 months now: What are your impressions of it? Does it play better? Is it more balanced? Do you look forward to it appearing in the rotation?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 23-08-2016, 23:08:48
I haven't gotten the chance to play it as much as others, but I think the update really helped. Judging by the times I've played it, and your videos ;) the Russians seem to have an easier time.

I personally don't enjoy the long range infantry play too much, not entirely my style OR (more likely) I can never get enough teamwork to make it enjoyable. I haven't tried leading a squad on it since the update tho. I always look forward to it because it looks amazing, but more often than not i find myself getting shot from enemies that I'm surprised about and it's kinda frustrating.

I don't think I've gotten the hang of the map yet. I'm sure the more I play it the more I'll enjoy it. :)
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: MajorMajor on 25-08-2016, 19:08:55
I think the changes made to the map really improved both balance and gameplay. Before the patch I just used to camp at the Valley of Death flag (my favorite flag in the map, since I love tank vs at-gun and crater-to-crater fights), raking up kills in the PaK 40 with impunity. Now it is much more intense, infantry usually flanks through the north and forces me to either cover the road or the forest.

I've been seeing Russians succeed more often now on the map, although I can't really say what it feels like to attack since Lady Luck has placed me in the German team every time, IIRC.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: nysä on 25-08-2016, 21:08:18
I love the new maps, but they are rarely on when I am playing online.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 25-08-2016, 21:08:16
I love the new maps, but they are rarely on when I am playing online.

Then you must be playing at very odd hours, because during EU primetime the new maps are on every evening.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: nysä on 25-08-2016, 21:08:52
Then you must be playing at very odd hours, because during EU primetime the new maps are on every evening.

Must be so. Gotta check the servers later in the evening.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Flippy Warbear on 26-08-2016, 14:08:00
I've noticed the best time to play is like from 8 till 12 in the evening, finnish time.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: nysä on 26-08-2016, 21:08:34
.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: jan_kurator on 26-08-2016, 22:08:14
This topic is about Dukla Pass, isn't it?  ???
Title: Dukla Pass 2.0
Post by: Ts4EVER on 13-12-2016, 15:12:27
Hi,
I did a large overhaul of Dukla Pass, check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d4rNAytuI4
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Nerdsturm on 13-12-2016, 19:12:24
I'm glad to see the issue where the Germans got stuck in their base addressed. It was pretty much impossible to come back from losing Valley of Death and stables.

Will there be any push mode implemented? 5 flags is pushing what you can reasonably have open at once on a public server in my opinion, and even with only 4 I've had games where we captured Farmstead or Stables with zero resistance because no Germans spawned there at the start of the round.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Matthew_Baker on 13-12-2016, 20:12:34
I like these changes and I think they'll really improve gameplay overall. My biggest problem with this map was how hard it was to play as infantry.

Will there be any push mode implemented? 5 flags is pushing what you can reasonably have open at once on a public server in my opinion, and even with only 4 I've had games where we captured Farmstead or Stables with zero resistance because no Germans spawned there at the start of the round.

I haven't had a game where I've experienced this problem yet. But I only get to play on the weekends when the server is mostly full :P

I think push might cause some hardcore bottlenecks tho, since it was designed as conquest. If anything, the update will hopefully concentrate fighting along that axis of 3-4 flags along the river.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: MajorMajor on 13-12-2016, 20:12:58
Nice, hopefully the two halves of the map will feel much more connected now. As a German infantryman it was very hard to get to the Kruzlova flags without getting sniped from afar. Also good job on the river part, it is very annoying to get killed while trying to climb a seemingly-ok bank.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Nerdsturm on 13-12-2016, 20:12:07

I haven't had a game where I've experienced this problem yet. But I only get to play on the weekends when the server is mostly full :P

I think push might cause some hardcore bottlenecks tho, since it was designed as conquest. If anything, the update will hopefully concentrate fighting along that axis of 3-4 flags along the river.

It's rarely a problem, in the current form it definitely wouldn't benefit from a push mode. I more thinking along the lines of making the new flag an uncap until the Soviets captured at least one of the flags around it, since otherwise it can get boring defending these rear flags that don't see much action.

I'm also probably a bit biased because the CMP maps have been getting played on the public servers, and a couple of them suffer rather badly from having too many flags open at once.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 13-12-2016, 22:12:29
From my point of  view, Im not too happy with some of it. I dont attack you Ts, you are from my point best mapper FH2 has because I cant believe how natural and real Dukla and Ogledow are. Just WOW. So this is my point and my opinion and want to say it.

It is good that inf finally got some cover over upper map and other part. Just for me now map losed little part of it that was so special. IMO too much  hedgrowes that remind me on Normandy so much I cant describe. Before this there was AFAIK no any hedgrowes which created atmosphere of Eastern Europe so great. I was mostly how there are now hedgrowes directly at end of forest at north of map which clearly doesnt fit at all to it. Maybe more other bushes or stones or diches instead. But OK about them.
That centre part of map was  open and clear and it was awsome for tank battles. I had actually many tank battles with my panther hitting all away up to top of hill. That was magnificent. Now new flag and huge amount of overgrowth at river will stop that at western part of map  and what I think was point of map- tanks need to clear way for inf. Now ofcourse in public server that doesnt work, but I think that more bushes and overgrowth and better walkable river or some more forest near river could do the thing. Now IMO it is little akward and normandiest .
More points for inf to cross river is great and will be key update for map that it needed. But I think that only more tank crossing that map needed is IMO that one that leads from Valley trough forest to west of Farm. That new one that leads from Valley to New Flag is not need and will ruin german main contraattack route that was safe on western part from river.And Im not really fund of that new flag which is huge,I wish it is smaller.

Now,before you attack me,I cant really judge much before release and trying it,but this is what I see from video. I hope Ts will see my point.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ivancic1941 on 15-12-2016, 21:12:40
Is there way- on example if you hit this dukla 2.0 aldo some people think like I or just think this is too drastic changes - to reverse map to state before this dukla 2.0, so to this now public version? Do you keep all your versions of map somewhere or can it be reversed over laucher or?
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Ts4EVER on 17-12-2016, 20:12:03
It can't be reversed unless you back up the old version from 2.52 now.
Title: Re: How to make an Eastern Front map
Post by: Roughbeak on 17-12-2016, 21:12:57
[...] Do you keep all your versions of map somewhere or can it be reversed over laucher or?

In the developer build we can go back to versions using tortoise svn's "update to revision" thingy.

Svn is really nice in that regard..