Navmeshes for Hurtgen Forest and Vossenack

[djinn]

Thanks man. Will probably give you feedback by tomorrow, if not tonight.

[Zoologic]

I managed to crash Vossenack! Anyone else?

I haven't discovered what's the problem yet, it occurred around 535 (German) vs 321 (US) tickets from full 600. My last position is in Southern most farm flag, camping inside the house in second floor when it suddenly CTDed. I camped there several times before and it shouldn't be the problem.

I had some epic fights there with city flags changing frequently. American tanks do enter the city and Germans too, they might stuck for a moment, but eventually find their way out and started wreaking havoc before some sneaky infantries with AT weapons ambushed them. This navmesh work is fabulous!

[djinn]

One limit I found on it though, although the church is navmeshed including the isles, the tower and top floor pews aren't, yet your squad will spawn on you there and get stuck.

Yer, I'd say keep tanks being able to go through town. Its mostly a problem with tank logic. Hanomags and M3A1s wizz around shooting people in the face with ease.. the wizzing around bit. So it makes for interesting CQB.

And yer, Hurtgen is scary! I was moving in force through the middle passage with a mixed group and had gunshots all around with a few flashes out of the blue, and I found myself alone, with a shitload of enemy getting closer, and the only thing keeping me alive... A tree.

Of course, I am curious to see how the US will play with the Germans on the defensive across all CPs, since it may prove very different for the former to plough through heavy defenses. But from my standpoint, navmeshes are perfect for this map.

Need to take another look at the town though, see what the Germans do there. But I don't see the forest being navmeshed any better.

I hear you on the sluggishness. I once suggested that bots be made to dash unless when in combat, because these maps also show the stark difference between bot and human play... And AT infantry do idle, it has something to do with the pistol as primary weapon as I understand it. A fix exists, I hear, but not implemented in the working version of FH2.

And again, tanks move in an unsure fashion, also more of a vehicle thing than a navmesh issue.

[djinn]

A few other things:
So I put the GPO back to see how bots work with the layout and vehicle loadout (Vossnack) and noted that bots attacked single bases in force rather than fanning out, explaining the meat grinder of the church base.

Also, bots seldom spawn at the rear bases if they have the foward bases. A few do eventually, but so rare, that main battle tanks trickle into the fight one at a time.

There is also a small path issue at the base south of the Church base, where bots get stuck against the barn, next to some boxes. Its rare, and they get out eventually, but it exists.

I also watched a JagdPanther suffer to leave the German main and realized that, out of navmeshing, someone needs to go back to 2.2 to get the tank motion template and completely overhaul what we currently use - Tanks move BADLY!

Remember Goodwood, and how tanks used to come storming through the bocage at the rails in force, and what they do now?

SO armor is NOT a navmesh issue in this map at all! Its just terrible tank motion - AI.


I did notice that in Hurtgen, bots also dont fan out enough, and seldom use the mgs, not sure if that is ai also or not, but I think bots holding a base should be made to spawn on mgs, although, I will advice those on Hurten be locked to German since they all point the same way, same goes for the church mg in Vossnack, the 88, and the trench AT gun overlooking the church, spawn-able for bots.

[cannonfodder]

Jeezuz, I thought it was hard to see bots at long range on Anctoville, it's nothing compared to Hurtgen.

Only tried one round, I was sick of getting shot by unseen enemies and having to run halfway across the map only to get shot again...

The bots were cutting across the minefield between the middle and lower passes, which I thought was a bit odd (I didn't even realize you could get in there... ).



Vossenack is a resource-hungry bitch (had to lose bots to stop lag)...

Tanks tend to get stuck near the church, but manage to get through once they're not distracted by the enemy.

Haven't tried it as the Axis yet, but when the Allied vehicles leave the main, they drive between the two arty guns, and when there's a bunch of them...well, you know.

Maybe you can use waypoints to make them go around them or just delete the bit of mesh between them...



I'll post a few pics once I've tried them as the Axis.

[ksl94]

I'm SO happy to have these maps in COOP now; navmeshing is perfect; I didn't see any bots getting stuck anywhere  . BTW I really agree with djinn on the bot behavior in tanks-that needs to be fixed. 2 days ago I played OP. Goodwood and noticed, that the Germans only sent APCs; I didn't see A SINGLE tank around-currently that map is unplayable.

[djinn]

yu-up

A far-cry from 2.0 and even 2.2, where tanks charged in force and completely routed the British advance... Right now, it simply looks like Goodwood, but a fuck hell doesn't play anything like it.

All I can do is suggest though, I can't make anyone do anything. But it certainly is the reason why we don't see the full German army in Vossnack storming against allied armor.

They have become shy creatures.

What CAN do done to improve these beta-maps is:
1. Spawn points on static weapons
2. More even-spawning across bases, especially Vossnack, which has alot of vehicles at the factions' main bases and no push-mode.
3. Add the AI versions of all artillery and increase the preference for static weapons.


Question though,

are open buildings on both maps navmeshed? It will be a nice difference to have bots spawning off the main paths and instead coming out of buildings, as well as being able to follow you around inside to kill you.

[ballard44]

I managed to crash Vossenack! Anyone else?

Hmm...has it happened again and has anybody else crashed on this map???

One limit I found on it though, although the church is navmeshed including the isles, the tower and top floor pews aren't, yet your squad will spawn on you there and get stuck.

Yeah...I had that happen to myself. Wondered where my squad was, map told me they were nearby...thought that is not true until some Germans came in and got shot. Looked up and thought WTF!!!

There is also a small path issue at the base south of the Church base, where bots get stuck against the barn, next to some boxes. Its rare, and they get out eventually, but it exists.

Show a pic and I can correct it.

I did notice that in Hurtgen, bots also dont fan out enough, and seldom use the mgs, not sure if that is ai also or not, but I think bots holding a base should be made to spawn on mgs

Bots will never be able to get to the MGs in the bunkers as the 'entrance doorway' is too low for them to just walk in. Bots don't kneel or crawl, hence they won't man those MGs.
If I meshed those areas, bots would just continue to try to enter or exit to no avail.

Question though,

are open buildings on both maps navmeshed? It will be a nice difference to have bots spawning off the main paths and instead coming out of buildings, as well as being able to follow you around inside to kill you.

Yes...Every open building should have at least the ground floor navmeshed, but on some the upper floors are not.
This was another issue in testing as some of the enterable buildings didn't 'mesh' at all. Called 'Self-Intersecting Objects' by the navmesh generator.
So I had to take the static(s) and correct it by creating new statics to replace those that didn't 'work' just for navmeshing purposes. Not a fast process, unfortunately.

The bots were cutting across the minefield between the middle and lower passes, which I thought was a bit odd...

They only do it there as the West minefield only has one way in or out for bots.

[gijas04]

Yeah, tried Hurtgen and Vossenack both work great. On Hurtgen the AI seems more aggresive than on some of the default Coop maps. I like being able to hide in the trenches or behind trees. Vossenack, the AI was bunched up at first with their tanks and APC around the first spawn point but then started to move out after being shot at or the enemy AI captured their first flag. Both maps I played on the German side.

[cannonfodder]

I've played half a dozen rounds on Vossenack with no CTD (tickets at 400 each).


Tried to get a shot of the US tank-jam at the arty guns, but they all decided to drive straight through...

I think it only happens when one vehicle has trouble getting through the gap in the fence (just in front of the guns), after a few unsuccessful attempts they try to turn around and if there's anyone behind them...instant traffic jam.


Germans have it a bit easier than the Yanks thanks to all the Panthers, but strangely it doesn't seem to unbalance the map.


I tried Hurtgen again, but fared little better. Without extra spawnpoints, you spend too much time running around.



Haven't noticed any other problems so far.

[Void]

@Ballard44

I am on the dev team now for sp and will be taking these up to edit the game play and layout.

Thank you for your work and your contribution! I will be looking these over soon.

[ballard44]

Cool.

I believe I have edited Vossenack to correct some small areas in it's navmesh.
I'll send you a DL link through a PM in the near future.

[Void]

sounds great man. looking forward to it.

[cannonfodder]

...I am on the dev team now for sp...

Cool...so when does 2.5 come out?

[Darman]

Nice, guys... SP Team, huh? Hope the new Hurtgen version will contain working vehicles. For me the Ais jst don't enter... Tried to fix it but without success. Anyway, how about Bastogne  ? (I know i mentioned it before but its just a too epic map to not give it a coop layout)