Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => General Discussion => Topic started by: justasug on 05-12-2018, 00:12:25
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Has there been an official explanation why the flags blink when they're being captured? I mean, why it was added to the game.
So far from what I've seen it just takes away from the game and makes it more casual. It takes a direct gameplay element where the player is involved and automates it. Specifically: before, someone had to actually be at the flag, notice an enemy and tell everyone else about it. Now that simple element is gone and the player has to watch out or cooperate with others less.
I can also see it messing up gameplay in some urban or narrow maps, where you can see it blinking and you automatically know someone is around and you go hunting for them. The flag can't suddenly go white and give you either a positive or negative "shock", depending on which end of the flag change you are.
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Yea i totaly agree with you , with the new flag blinking system we lose the element of surprise and the enemy is rushing the flag.
I prefer the old flag system because it's only rewarding teamplayers who cares about defending and communicate with other squad members , not for people who just care for attacking and getting more kills.
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It was put in place to help counter flag "pre-cappers" in push mode maps. I personally don´t like the blinking flags at all.
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Yea i totaly agree with you , with the new flag blinking system we lose the element of surprise and the enemy is rushing the flag.
I prefer the old flag system because it's only rewarding teamplayers who cares about defending and communicate with other squad members , not for people who just care for attacking and getting more kills.
The problem with the element of surprise, is that this mod is trying to portray WWII battles, and not some spec ops mission, where you have to sneak in and cap an objective. You have to fight at the front, kill the enemy and move forward.
The blinking flag-thing was added to help find precappers, but it also helps preventing lone jeep rushers to squadbomb a flag, something which is totally unconvincing in a WWII setting and therefore immersionkiller nr 1.
I prefer the old flag system because it's only rewarding teamplayers who cares about defending and communicate with other squad members , not for people who just care for attacking and getting more kills.
The old flag system was not rewarding defenders enough, in my opinion. In order to be successfull at defending in the old system, you had to have a full squad at every open flag in case of the lone jeep... etc. Defending in the new system needs communication too, because if the squad wanders off a flag which needs defending, you can call it back after it starts blinking. The plus side of it is that every player will see the need for retreating and defending himself. A lot better than when you had to type your explanation or scream in voip just to see your message get lost in hundreds of other messages.
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The old flag system was not rewarding defenders enough, in my opinion. In order to be successfull at defending in the old system, you had to have a full squad at every open flag in case of the lone jeep... etc.
This is why I like the blinking flag system. A lot of FH2 maps have flags that sit open but very rarely ever get attacked, and nobody wants to sit around doing nothing for 40 minutes on the off chance that a stray jeep might come along.
It also helps with some counter-attack cases like British flags on Supercharge, where the Brits have no difficulty defending their flags overall but it used to be possible for stray Germans to sometimes sneak in and steal a flag while most of the Brits are off attacking the next line. This totally screwed up the flow of the map but is pretty well prevented now.
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We had to remove that for our campaigns. It ruined our play style. People didn't need to watch the flag and people couldn't hide in the flag zone. That's very important for us.
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Best thing since sliced bread for gameplay on public. It's not really intended that a single kubel can sneak and spawn an entire army on the next flag and insta-cap it.
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We had to remove that for our campaigns. It ruined our play style. People didn't need to watch the flag and people couldn't hide in the flag zone. That's very important for us.
but isn't that obvious? and how is that related? you run your campaign on a minimod anyway ???
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This discussion will go the same way as the one about the K98 aiming.
Players, for 5 years: There is a problem with the K98 aiming.
Devs: "there is no problem, stop complaining."
Devs after 5 years: there might be a slight problem with the elevation of the grain... but nothing that would explain the players' complaints about the K98's accuracy. Stop exaggerating already.
Devs after 6 years: hey it was not really necessary, but we changed the grain...a bit.
K98 aim: *works again.*
Players: "..."
It IS a problem if the defender can instantly see via flashing flag that one of his flags is under attack. Way before it turns white and denies him the possibility to instantly join on that flag and prop it up with defending players. It gives him an unfair advantage.
On crossed flags? Yes, the flashing is sensible, to highlight spawn campers. In conquest modes with free for all flags? Don't use it. "But Odium, you are exaggerating, there is no..."
;)
See you in 5 years.
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Well, I have no idea what K98 issue are you talking about, but blinking flags were introduced on purpose to give that "unfair" advantage to defenders, that is exactly what they do, get over it. It's not like changes like there were not tested and discussed internally before they went public. Also, it is liked by most of the players according to feedback, only very few complained about it really, but you can't win them all.
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Thank you Jan for proving my point. ;) <3
It is one thing to test a gameplay change with 5vs5 beta testers.
How it works out on a full 50vs50 server, Jan, can be another matter.
You can ignore that and call everyone around yourself a noob and incompetent.
Or ask yourself if there is something to improve here.
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Constructive Feedback is always welcome. The rest of the jibbajabba won't help anyone though.
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In my oppinion it is true that the blinking helps in push mode maps, even sector push. It makes sense there because the map is designed for the push to work, obviously. But in conquest maps it just kills the essence of the game mode.
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I'll copy pasta from when this was discussed in another thread;
It's a way of neutralizing precappers on push maps and back cappers on conquest maps. I personally love this change, and I know that many of the devs and testers do as well.
To me- I don't like "sneaky" people back capping flags or pre-capping flags since it seems like a cheap way of taking a point. Imo it's more fun to fight over a flag instead of sneaking behind everyone and taking it without contest. It's definitely a more arcade-ish change, but it fits within the gameplay of FH2 imo (a balance of arcade and realism)
The idea is to give your typical pub player a better idea of what's going on, and give the whole team the same situational awareness. As an example; I was moving up with my squad as Russians on Ihantala from the Bridge to the Highway flag. We saw the bridge flag blinking and the team made a collective effort to stop running forward and fall back to defend. It made us attack and defend as a team rather than being caught in no-man's land.
Imo it's not intrusive (only on the minimap) and serves its purpose (curtailing the effectiveness of back cappers/ pre cappers and promoting teamwork)
I'll also add that I don’t understand the appeal of capping a flag with no resistance. I want to fight over the flag and win it, not just crouch next to my teammates until a timer is up, hop in the car and peace out. It also makes you think twice about attacking (if you’re smart) to wait for teammates and not just jump into a flag by yourself hoping to surprise the enemy. It just never appealed to me to hop in a Jeep and bum rush a flag that no ones defending. I never felt satisfaction from capping it. Especially because 9/10 my SL would have us all hop back into the Jeep and find another flag that no ones defending. It seems like a driving simulator when it plays out that way.
It IS a problem if the defender can instantly see via flashing flag that one of his flags is under attack. Way before it turns white and denies him the possibility to instantly join on that flag and prop it up with defending players. It gives him an unfair advantage.
I don't see the advantage that an attacker has here. He can spawn into the flag and contest it, but he risks;
a) being the only one that spawns there
b) getting spawn killed
If anything, it evens the playing field because now both the attacker and defender have the same information about the status of the flag and can act accordingly.
In the same way that I can see the enemy's tickets and if they're bleeding or not; both teams get the same information and can act accordingly.
...But in conquest maps it just kills the essence of the game mode.
I'd argue that the essence of conquest is for flags to be fought over and not for people to take flags without anyone else noticing. Conquest stems from 'vanilla' Battlefield, where the devs have consistently tried to make it clear to players that a flag is falling before it goes neutral. BF2 had giant flag poles sticking up to show you the progress on the flag and BFV has the same thing, accompanied with an indicator on the minimap.
The intention of the change was to encourage players to fight over flags, and not take them without contest. This change succeeds in doing that, and it's a change that makes the game more fun (imo).
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This is one of my favorite features that has been added to FH2. In all BF games I am the kind of player that spawns at empty flags left by teammates who constantly zerg from one flag to another only to have the flag they were just at get recaptured. Having this kind of warning helps make players more likely to help keep control of territory already won!
When this was first implemented during beta tests, I thought it was only going to work for push maps, but was really excited to see it apply to conquest as well.
How I see it, it is just an indicator that an area is 'active,' just because the defending team can see their flag is under attack doesn't mean they will win the fight for it. If you fail to take a flag simply because the enemy knows you are there, then....sorry? ???
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We had to remove that for our campaigns. It ruined our play style. People didn't need to watch the flag and people couldn't hide in the flag zone. That's very important for us.
but isn't that obvious? and how is that related? you run your campaign on a minimod anyway ???
What? I can't post obvious stuff. Well excuse me.
Anyway, we tried it for like 3 battles. So it wasn't obvious to everyone.
BTW, back-capping(not pre-capping) levels the playing field for high-ping low-skill players like me. It's pretty much all I do in pubby along with AT gun whoring. That's the beauty of early Battlefield. You don't have to be "good" to make a difference. If it wasn't for that, I would just play more golf.
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I absolutely love the blinking flags, it's one of the best things to happen in FH2. Before this regular conquest maps were just about racing from flag to another as there was one squad back-capping everything, this was already a douche thing to do in vanilla BF2 (so many Karkands and Jalalabads won just by being an asshole). It also brings pacing into push maps, as when you lose a flag, you organise defence on the next flag, instead of losing it immediately because someone has spent 15 minutes of a 20 minute match "precapping" a flag.
FH2 is about two big frontlines that smash against each other, not about hunting lone wolves sneaking behind your lines.
And besides, 90% of players don't even look at the map, so at most a back-capper has to deal with one or two enemies. Shouldn't be too much of a trouble to deal with that. This is a feature that's also been included in all modern BF games (since BF3 if I remember correctly), and it works well there too. And just like in FH2, most people don't even pay attention to it.
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I'll also add that I don’t understand the appeal of capping a flag with no resistance. I want to fight over the flag and win it, not just crouch next to my teammates until a timer is up, hop in the car and peace out.
Then that's certainly either a poorly thought-out map design or you're playing on a 10vs10 server.
it also makes you think twice about attacking (if you’re smart) to wait for teammates and not just jump into a flag by yourself hoping to surprise the enemy.
I don't think that ever happens, because the pace of the game is just too quick for that to have any relevance.
It just never appealed to me to hop in a Jeep and bum rush a flag that no ones defending. I never felt satisfaction from capping it.
Most of the time there are enough squads to have each flag have one dedicated squad. If there are no defenders on a flag, then that team should be punished with an "easy" capture by a single guy with a jeep.
I've read all the explanations and replies and I still don't see how it was that desperately needed. To be honest, it doesn't have that much of an impact in the game as someone said (no one is watching the map), but it still feels like an immersion killer. More than "back-capping", "pre-capping" or however you'd call those certain emerging gameplay features (which I think are already balancing themselves out on their own).
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This is a good addition to the mod IMHO, ever since the devs decided to "ditch" the commander there was always something lacking in terms of warning the players regarding approaching enemies. Just think of it as an "automated commander" signalling to you to keep an eye on a particular flag.
Sadly, the other gameplay purposes of the commander (communicate about possible attack strategies, coordinate squads, provide intel support and "positive reinforcement" for player actions) are not so easily replaceable...
Maybe it's time to throw the attackers a bone too and give them back (some) commander support on maps that don't currently feature it ?
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Then that's certainly either a poorly thought-out map design or you're playing on a 10vs10 server.
I'm not talking about any specific map. I'm talking about the tactics that I've seen used by people on a 100 player server multiple times. This discourages those tactics, which is a good thing imo.
I don't think that ever happens, because the pace of the game is just too quick for that to have any relevance.
It certainly happens for me. The blinking flag now punishes you for lone wolfing into a flag like that, which is a good thing imo.
Most of the time there are enough squads to have each flag have one dedicated squad. If there are no defenders on a flag, then that team should be punished with an "easy" capture by a single guy with a jeep.
You talk about how the game is too 'fast paced' for people to not rush into a flag alone, and then talk about how a team should dedicate squads to defend individual flags. That's not going to happen on a pub server, people want to go to where the action is, not sit at a flag that no one is attacking. This allows teams to play for flags that are being capped and, if they're smart, shift their forces to contested flags quicker.
I've read all the explanations and replies and I still don't see how it was that desperately needed. To be honest, it doesn't have that much of an impact in the game as someone said (no one is watching the map), but it still feels like an immersion killer. More than "back-capping", "pre-capping" or however you'd call those certain emerging gameplay features (which I think are already balancing themselves out on their own).
I can't get behind the idea that this addition is an 'immersion killer' when it only shows up on the minimap which, in-itself, is an immersion killer. AND when it reduces the lone wolfing tactics that I mentioned above, which are more immersion killing and teamwork killing than the blinking flag.