Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: phillip on 30-01-2011, 17:01:05
-
Between the What 5 maps would you miss the least? (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=13395.0) thread and a recent crappy COOP round of driving up and shooting all the axis bots in the
barrel mainbase, I was thinking this map could use some loving. It's almost universally hated it seems. But perhaps with a little help from the community we could give this map a facelift and make it awesome playable.
This is the minimap. Yellow is the playing area. There are 10-15+ tanks on each side. The gameplay tends to just be drive your tank forward and shoot. Not much for flanking. Not much for infantry to do other than find a hole and hide in it. Trucks/APC are death traps because of the amount of armor and lack of cover. And a pipercub spawns at the bottom city if the brits have the central village flag. I havn't played it enough in earlier versions to know if the bottom was a flag, but I imagine it was.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/Untitled.png)
So after getting in that pipercub, I realized this is what we have to play with for the map. The current playable area is probably only a quarter or less of the space on the map. Lots of rolling hills and valleys that could make for some fun team tanking warfare.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/2-54.png)
If you move the current OOB (white) to the blue, look how much more space there is to work with. The entire mountain comes into play along with the pipercub village. There is a plateau on the left side of the map and the allies could flank around the riverbed near their mainbase.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/22.png)
In a 5 minute MSpaint layout that sucks, I put this together. The map wouldn't/couldn't be great for infantry, due to the lack of cover. But this map could then be great for a pure tanking map. 32v32 tanks+arty. Tanking flags with 200m flagzones with team spawnpoints that have reserve tanks to get back into battle. Maybe start all flags as Axis?
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/222.png)
The item that takes away from fun of tanking on the large maps is that you spawn, drive for 3 minutes, get one or two shots off, then start driving again. To do tanks 32v32 I think you need to make tanks spawn forward near the flags so that players can spawn and get into a tank near a flag they control. Then the team that owns the flag, gets forward tank reenforcments. Maybe you keep the heavies in the mainbase. And make each tank objectspawner produce up to 10+ objects.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/2222.png)
My machine can't map, otherwise I'd do it. I am pretty sure if someone puts the effort into updating the map, we could get Sam(F|H) to host it for a "FH Community Loves up Aberdeen" event. Find a mapper to work on changing the objects, then plan a date to get 64 peeps on it. I don't know if either of the tournaments have tried to expand the playing area in Aberdeen. I'm pretty sure F|H hasn't.
I think Lobo was the mapper behind this map, and alot of time has been invested in it. Instead of relegating maps to "This sucks. Let's never play it again"-status, why don't we as the community get together, brainstorm and give this map some love to make it really fun.
What 5 maps would you miss the least?
62 (10.8%) - Operation Aberdeen
38 (6.6%) Tunis
34 (5.9%) - Anctoville
34 (5.9%) - Bardia
34 (5.9%) - Mersa Matruh
Why not work on improving what is considered the worst map in the mod? Can't get worse right ;D
-
Amen, Aberdeen has potential, I like your suggestions.
-
Remember, the battle was a commonwealth slaughter. Germans and italians basically had a screen of 88's and other anti-tank guns which massacred all of those crusaders, stuarts and grants which charged against that barrier... the survivors were finished off by Rommel's panzer division which consisted of both german and italian tanks.
You could even name the flags into locations that were fought over during the battle in real life:
- Like the 88 positions at Bir El Scerab, that basically managed to totally exploit a completely open flank of the british assault. This 88 position could very well be the northernmost flag in current Aberdeen.
- Middle village could be a small dwelling of Dahar El Aslagh. But I wouldnt use any big houses. Those in Mareth Line would look perfect (not the multi leveled ones).
- Western village should be either removed or moved further away to out of bounds. So the battlefield and flag area would be in the huge minefields at the outskirts of settlement of Bir El Harmat.
- Southern strongpoint should become positions of Bir Et Tamar. This was the british artillery position which were also wiped out during the battle.
Battle plan:
1) So I'd flip the mainbases around. Have a mainbase for british at south, call the base as 22nd Armoured Brigade. 21st Panzer Division mainbase at north.
2) All flags neutral at start and both sides start with some tanks and light vehicles.
3) British capture Bir Et Tamar (southernmost flag) and they receive artillery there. If germans do that, they receive couple of more of lighter type tanks to their mainbase (such as Carro Armatos).
4) Western village of Bir El Harmat or more like the outskirts of the village would give both teams couple of more tanks when captured. This flag as said before, would be fought over in a minefield just outskirts of the settlement itself.
5) Middle village of Dahar El Aslagh would only be reinforced for the team who controlled it. Stationary MG's, anti-tank guns both stationary and movable would spawn into the place.
6) Bir El Scerab would give british some extra light tanks into their mainbase but the germans would receive 88's whom would have such a deadly killingzone its not even funny anymore.
-
Of course the whole terrain of the map would have to be altered. Get rid of those fucking ridiculous mountains and deep valleys. In reality the whole place was flat, but ingame it doesnt cut it too well. So better have some dunes to limit vision of AT-guns and kill the silhouettes of tanks. But not to have huge and deep alleys and canyons as the present version does. Smooth terrain with some depressions there and here to make the maneuvering in cover at least somehow possible.
-
Remember, the battle was a commonwealth slaughter. Germans and italians basically had a screen of 88's and other anti-tank guns which massacred all of those crusaders, stuarts and grants which charged against that barrier... the survivors were finished off by Rommel's panzer division which consisted of both german and italian tanks.
Just because the real battle was a slaughter doesn't mean you have to make a meat grinder. Personally for me opening up the out of bounds and working with the flags is a much better option than continuing to leave Aberdeen as the 1 front, slaughter that it is.
-
Amongst the top five hated, I think only Aberdeen and Tunis are beyond help.
Aberdeen is at first, not realistic, a very no-no thing in FH, despite Ramelle-Neuville being likewise. But given the release of Russian front, early western, Pacific, and others, I guess by then, Ramelle would top the 5 hated. It is just, many players can't just get enough of lush, green, European-setting battlefields.
An unrealistic setting is beyond any help IMO. The real Aberdeen, as far as I can read in Wikipedia (and its sources), is in quite different setting than the one shown here. This map is intentionally fictional.
Tunis is also beyond help, because it tries to represent the big battle in a CS-manner. When I saw Brest, Anctoville, or the beautiful Port-en-Bessin, my standard has raised a notch on what a city map should look like.
-
No map is ever beyond help. The simple fact is there are maps like Ramelle and Aberdeen that present themselves in an unrealistic way, that are not photocopies of aerial photography, or satellite imagery. Maps that were born out of the imagination of a mapper who had a vision and sought to make it work. In-fact there are so many examples of these types of maps, in all Battlefield games alike that damning them because they are unrealistic or misrepresent a said battle is unfair to that mappers ultimate dream.
This does not mean that when these maps are created that the original concept may be flawed. I can recall working on the BFP1 Scurvy Dogs Map Pack, a Map Pack where every single map was a fictional imaginary place, thought up in the recesses of our minds and then displayed through the editor as best as we could muscle to make them a reality.
Of the maps made for that map pack not a single one was discarded, every map bad or not was brought back time and time again to the drawing board, and to the cycle of peers working on them, that eventually, even the worst ideas began to take shape into fun maps which the BFP community respected.
Now there is a side of that argument that will tell me BFP is not a game based of a real-life conflict or scenario. While this is true, we should never forget that FH2, as a MOD for Battlefield 2, is in its simplest form a game, and therefore must be treated like one whenever it is necessary. It is one thing to say that you are going to work tirelessly to make a historically accurate, realistic simulation of any armed conflict, but to then ignore the in-balances and flaws in them, or to discard features which have been worked on heavily because of those faults, is then to damn your project to fail.
Instead of treating Aberdeen as a lost cause, the map should be taken up by the community, to better improve it. Aberdeen has arose as one of the maps the community likes least to play, this could be for a number of different reasons, but that is no excuse to discard it or to cast it aside as shit. This man makes a great suggestion about Aberdeen, and it nearly mirrors my thoughts on the map as well.
Aberdeen should be fixed, not forgotten.
-
Usually one side rape the other, and i assume its the brits who usually do that. But ive had alot of fun on this map aswell. The times it works its quite funny. But unortunately thats not often i think.
-
Remember, the battle was a commonwealth slaughter. Germans and italians basically had a screen of 88's and other anti-tank guns which massacred all of those crusaders, stuarts and grants which charged against that barrier... the survivors were finished off by Rommel's panzer division which consisted of both german and italian tanks.
Just because the real battle was a slaughter doesn't mean you have to make a meat grinder. Personally for me opening up the out of bounds and working with the flags is a much better option than continuing to leave Aberdeen as the 1 front, slaughter that it is.
agreed, theres plenty of maps already wich end up in a german killwhore festation
-
If the intention is to deliberately making it historically inaccurate, that is fine. But my opinon, and several other players who voted for Aberdeen, are not all about the accuracy of the map.
Then, my opinion didn't come from me as an map artist. If I were, it would be too damn hard to dump every of my year-long projects and getting disheartened everytime I hear someone else map being turned over. In short, it would be a bias. As a player, I really don't mind playing in Aberdeen, but you can say, of all beautiful FH2 maps available, this one has the least good experience.
My view as a FH2 fan. FH2 as in a whole, should represent historical accuracy to certain degree. PR brings realism in its package, they even tweaked their main menu and uses true-to-the real military map name. But it is up to the dev's choice if they want to do something different. The crown jewel of FH2 would be something like Siege of Giarabub, where the map is stunningly close to the real ones and also quite fun to play.
Basically, I don't want to overemphasize on one aspect. The gameplay is important too. That is why I exclude Bardia and Ramelle on my list. Creativity plays important part here, I love fun & accurate maps. But mirror balanced, CS-like, confining maps which sacrificed too much historical accuracy (in FH2 standards) to be saved from my list, really doesn't do it. Op Aberdeen is 3/10 in accuracy (+2 because of North African dessert setting, +1 because of vehicles), while also 4/10 in gameplay.
If we want to fix Aberdeen, I think we have to pay attention to what Flippy posted. But then, it would totally change the map, there are no cliffs, no lakes, no valleys, and such. It won't be the same Aberdeen.
I recall the worst experience being an infantry trapped in the "strongpoints" or villages. There are AT guns and MG emplacements, meaning we were intended to camp the post and fight the tanks with what we carried and what is there. Since the map is quite huge and has a lot of tanks, well good luck spawning as other than engineer or AT. There are almost no vehicles there. I couldn't just escape, a few tanks drives by and massacred a good portion of soldiers in the village. So they are relatively poor place to spawn from.
-
No map is ever beyond help.
...
Instead of treating Aberdeen as a lost cause, the map should be taken up by the community, to better improve it. Aberdeen has arose as one of the maps the community likes least to play, this could be for a number of different reasons, but that is no excuse to discard it or to cast it aside as shit. This man makes a great suggestion about Aberdeen, and it nearly mirrors my thoughts on the map as well.
Aberdeen should be fixed, not forgotten.
exactly.
Sure its not accurate to real life. But then most battles in real life were slaughterfests, and those don't exactly translate to instant fun in game if you map it the same exact way ( 200 Russian tanks vs 10 German, yay.). Of course you could alter the terrain, statics, textures and make a fun map. But that is just making an entire new map. The current map could work and be more fun, with a different game play concept.
Perhaps a few mappers could do different concepts, which could be all tested together and then in the next release the best ones could be tweaked and given out as the new Aberdeen. Give new life to the old dog. I know removing flags/objectspawners/OOB and laying out a new map is not a difficult or long process for an experienced mapper to do.
Most people didn't flag the map on the least liked list because of historical inadequacies, but because the gameplay is not fun.
Edited in the quotes about it on that thread
Operation Aberdeen - This map has never been balanced or looked good, its been superseded by Gazala
Operation Aberdeen because it is just a bad map which presents the real operation horribly. It *could* be made into resembling at least somehow what it was but that is highly unlikely going to happen.
- Aberdeen, because since 2.2? it is a very one sided map which always ends the same. Also, it feels too generic, too "fake".
Aberdeen because well it's Aberdeen the Ultimate Mirror Balance Fight with an Asymmectrical flag on the west side of the map. Only the scout plane make it sort of funny.
Operation Aberdeen - Need I say more? We have maps like Alam Halfa, Gazala, and Mareth Line for large NA tank battles.
Aberdeen.- too small map to represent a huge operation, short view distance for tank combat, finally, no mobile 88 =[
Aberdeen - because it's aberdeen. Nothing special. Fubar landscape and balance that shifted with every patch till 2.2.
Aberdeen: I still hope for a remake / rebuild / adjust of this map. Why I didnt choose it - its an african map, and I like African maps so much. Just give them some Panzer IV F2.
1. Operation Aberdeen
Definitely not the kind of tank map, it is just a matter of luck that whether your tank shell hit the critical parts of the enemy tank. Map design doesn't feel war-like.
Aberdeen: I actually didn't vote for it because I clicked the submit button too soon! :P As for why I dislike it, just look at any of the reasons mentioned previously in this thread.
Aberdeen: because I don't like its game play and think it is ugly and quite sloppy made, both in design and in graphical appearance. One thing you can't blame Aberdeen for though is being boring, but the crazy imbalance and just dull layout makes me alt-tab to desktop or change server whenever it comes up
Arbedeen, feels arcade, works with only a 3rd of its actual size and has no special vehicle or unique aspects.
Operation Aberdeen - Poorly designed map. Feels unfinished for some reason, just look at the minimap and the roads leading to nowhere. One sided battles and boring gameplay also contribute.
Aberdeen, All I remember about that map is somehow boring, but I would like to play it again as I haven't played it for long time.
Most people here hated Mersa Matruh, some hate Op Goodwood, Aberdeen, Cobra and every other maps that tries to represent a city or town with a few blocks of dead buildings. Matruh might be realistic, but the gameplay easily kills it. I get bored waiting in the wrong end with AT guns, only to find out that the Germans flanked from the side. The suckiest thing is moving through the blocks of bland buildings. Now Fall of Tobruk is one brilliant town map, unlike the hated Brest, or Anctoville town maps, we move through a life town.
Goodwood, Aberdeen, Cobra, Luettich have this common thing I called "pointless towns" Instead of getting epic CQB fights there, you are practically trapped in the narrow streets where buildings around you serve as an explosion pad if the tanks can't find you just by randomly shooting the walls with HE shells. And then in Cobra and Goodwood, the most important town, where all the fun should be, is located way off the heat points (realistic, but meh)
Op aberdeen, well this is where the allies constant win
Operation Aberdeen - seriously, what's the purpose of this desert with some house thrown into the middle? Balance is screwed, no cover at all and it looks ugly
Voted for:
...
- Operation Aberdeen
...
Basically all those maps with either lack of cover or horribly long walking distances. Or both. Not to forget: they just play badly.
Aberdeen -
Operation Aberdeen - Just a really lacking map. It doesn't even work well as a tank oriented map when there are much superior ones available such as El Al and Gazala.
I've only voted for one map: Operation Aberdeen
This is the one and only map i truly dislike, every other map is fun to play atleast occasionally or has something good about them. But aberdeen looks, feels and plays like crap. It feels like a map randomly thrown together as a test map in the early stages of FH2 and I could do without it.
Surely there are a few maps i like less than others, for example alam halfa, supecharge and siege of tobruk but like i said these maps Are fun to play from time to time and add variety, whilst aberdeen just dosent cut it.
So open up paint, and draw what you think could make it more fun/better.
-
Good job, but as you say, this will have to be done by the community, the devs are not going to touch this map. But if someone were to fix it perhaps they would consider it making the fix official.
-
Actually, Aberdeen is one of my favorites map in FH2. Aberdeen and Bardia: <3
If i could, just do what Flippy said in BF2 Editor, hell yeah i would do it. But, i lost all my experience on mapping D=>
I loved it, i remember rounds with the Valentine, just showing these silly germans my side armor and laughing at their faces, shooting with my little gun, doing no damage but still having fun.
Or going solo trough the Mountain and sniping British tanks with a PzII or something.
Remake Needed =D
-
Nice suggestions for the map!! I agree with you there, nice thoughts.
The map is to narrow and is just a frontal fight, bashing it out.
But Am I the only one who is seeing the problem with tank balance in North Africa?
I know im getting annoying with this ... but as allies i never had any problem on this map. Problem is that if you are driving a german tank on this map (or most other NA maps for that matter) you are screwed.
The PIV can´t fight over long distances (of course it shouldnt).
And the PIII doesnt do anything. - Hell, i shot a grant over about 100 metres 3 times in the side and it stayed intact. i really think there should be weakspots you can shoot with PIIIs (you know the panther can be 1 shot if you hit the track - why not the other way around).
- Same goes for shermans on other maps (- nice ambush position, pzgr40 hit with PIII into shermans rear, 50 metres, sherman catches fire, stays intact though - it 1 shots your tank. FUuuuuuu)
and infantry is no option in NA. - so what is left?
honestly im just joining NA servers if theres nothing else there - its 2nd choice.
-
What would be the quickest solution would be to get rid of most of the OOB and add/move flags and what spawns at what flag as suggested. This does not require placing of new statics even.
Also, for a battle famous for 88-whoring, the Germans could benefit from a couple of those (as other maps have shown, they are not invincible!). Even if the flags are reversed, 88's in the place of 2pdrs at the northern strongpoint (or southern, if they're not) would be nice.
Also, the FlaK in the village. What is it good for except for spawnraping the Western Village, besides having suprise buttsecks with the occasional light vehicle that's driven by a n00b who doesn't know its placement?
The layout itself, I have no problem with fictional layouts (Totalize, durr) as long as they are at least named after a real battle (Ramelle, hurr). But in the long term the map really would really need to be flattened out. All elevation differences at 1/4 of the present, it would play nicely. Would have shallow depressions for the tanks to hide in and low mounds for spotters to spot from, instead of the current alpine ravines and vertical cliffs. Is this as simple as changing the heightmap, or is there more arcane lore to be learned?
-
Am I the only one who likes Aberdeen as it is?
-
*highfive Tor
To be honest, I love Aberdeen. It is one of my favorite maps (mostly because of the scout planes and doing tihngs star wars trench run style)
I do support this thread though, Aberdeen gets stale midgame once camping position are set up. (Though if you do manage to get an opponent to the boxing ring, its awesome)
-
The trick is not in fixing Aberdeen - it's in finding a developer willing to waste time on what is quite generally considered to be the worst map in FH2. With no Eastern Front maps and only a handful of Ardennes maps, why would anyone want a mapper to spend time on this piece of work?
-
guderian have expressed himself to me that he would love to fix it
-
Because there are a bunch of mappers in the community that are not in the dev team. F|H guys, WaW and others.
Perhaps set it up like a community contest. Set 4-6 weeks for time for the mappers to rework their map. Put all the maps into an easy installer, then plan a date to mass play them to find a favorite or two. Then those reworked ones could become Aberdeen_32, Aberdeen_16 if not just replace the current _64.
- Maps must be renamed operation_aberdeen_YOURNAME
- Mappers can do multiple submissions operation_aberdeen_YOURNAME_2
- Goal is light effort rework ( Light/No Terrain Changes, Light/No static changes, Change Flags, ObjectSpawners, Bleed, Etc)
- Post the maps by Date X
- Play testing event on Date Y
Bribe someone to put together an advert for it. And get enough people to play test the versions. Have them give their feedback and Lightning gets to announce the losers.
I can think of quite a few people that I know have the skill to do this and are not on the dev team (maybe not the time atm). Zeno, Tass, Taz, Kummitus, WasntmeNL, Lister, Behr, Elander. And those are just the F|H guys I know. I'm sure there are a slew in WaW and well. Also there are a bunch of individual guys that post their maps in the modding area that would have the skills to do it as well. If a mapper contributed, they would know that they layout would get played atleast and possibly become part of the mod.
I think it would be great if the community outside of the dev team put their ideas down, added a little bit of elbow grease and their input would result in FH2 becoming better.
We would need
- MS paint Monkeys to brainstorm ideas for different layouts (come on djinn)
- A few skilled mappers to lend a day or two of time
- A few graphics, A server for a day or two
- A news post to get more interest for mappers and play testers.
Let's turn a lemon into lemonade!
-
Lets all murder Aberdeen and replace it with some Eastern Front maps 8)
-
I don't mind it. I also really really like Tunis for that matter.
-
Aberdeen was awesome in the old days.
But then came maps like Mareth and then Normandy and, it simply died.
-
aberdeen was never awesome.. ::)
-
Dont be like that :(, it was
a w e s o m e
-
Balance problem is not about map, it's about weapon. Aberdeen worked just fine in 2.15.
I don't understand why the desert panzer pzg40 was reduced to 3 per tank. Those HVAP in Normandy needs to be reduced since it one shot even KT to the front, the pzg40 in aberdeen for example, can't even damage the Matilda to the front, and needs 2-3 shots to kill it from the side. And then again the top armor and pz3 cupola issue, it's these things make the map imbalance.
-
Balance problem is not about map, it's about weapon. Aberdeen worked just fine in 2.15.
I don't understand why the desert panzer pzg40 was reduced to 3 per tank. Those HVAP in Normandy needs to be reduced since it one shot even KT to the front, the pzg40 in aberdeen for example, can't even damage the Matilda to the front, and needs 2-3 shots to kill it from the side. And then again the top armor and pz3 cupola issue, it's these things make the map imbalance.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ALSO TEAM LOCK THE AT GUNS. Germans lose half their tanks to captures PAK guns, such bs it seems like most of German AT weapons are positioned to be used by the British.
-
You all seemed to forgot the infantries again.
It was the guys manning the 88 who did big stuff in the battle. Not to mention the Indian infantries holding their position strongly.
The towns and villages in this desolate map seems pretty pointless IMO. It has every infantry equipment, but totally useless for tanks to actually visit if it wasn't for capping flags. We could just waited outside and storm the shit out of careless tankers trying to cap the flag.
I propose a dig-in tank positions. Much like dirt walls where tanks can dug in and fight with moar protection.
I guess I was influenced by Blitzkrieg game too much.
-
I like Phillip's idea.
Also, if the devteam is so disappointed in the map as is - having been "officially" tested and all - then what would be the problem if it was replaced by a version the community feels to be superior? Because it did not go through the "official" process? Because it was not tested by the betatesting team only? Honestly, that's just bureaucracy and red tape, can be bypassed if it needs to.
-
*highfive Tor
To be honest, I love Aberdeen. It is one of my favorite maps (mostly because of the scout planes and doing tihngs star wars trench run style)
I do support this thread though, Aberdeen gets stale midgame once camping position are set up. (Though if you do manage to get an opponent to the boxing ring, its awesome)
Aye, Aberdeen is not fun for the battle, it's fun for the eastern village. Whoever gets there first and grabs the scout plane. Then fly high, dive low and annoy enemy tankers.
Or hide in Central Village with a Boys and mininukes and wait for some stupid German to cap the flag in a tank.
-
Actually, Aberdeen is one of my favorites map in FH2. Aberdeen and Bardia: <3
Woaw, realy ? :o
I don't even see why we are discussing this map. The work involved is so big we could have a complete other desert map instead ...
-
Actually, Aberdeen is one of my favorites map in FH2. Aberdeen and Bardia: <3
Woaw, realy ? :o
I don't even see why we are discussing this map. The work involved is so big we could have a complete other desert map instead ...
Changing flags and OOB is probably a 1 or 2 day job. Maybe a little more depending on the mappers experience. If you destroy the entire map, then sure. But we have a crappy map that could be better with a better layout. The devteam is onto Bulge/Russia. They should work there, it's exciting. But the community could help the mod get better with this map. It could be more productive than spending hundreds of hours on a custom map that won't ever see more than 4 people playing it at once.
I think the current layout stinks because it plays like a Dods map, just in tanks. Two sides rush at eachother, and whoever is stronger pins the enemy down into their mainbase. There is really only 2 options on the map, left or right (or pipercub). In the accessible playing area, you can almost see from side to side, so there isn't a choice other than run forward and shoot things. That is why it seems unbalanced. If one side has one tank that is stronger, then they win.
The towns and villages in this desolate map seems pretty pointless IMO. It has every infantry equipment, but totally useless for tanks to actually visit if it wasn't for capping flags. We could just waited outside and storm the shit out of careless tankers trying to cap the flag.
Thats why I look at it and think it should be a pure tank battle. Skip the infantry except for Arty duty. Large flag zones, that tanks manuever to capture. Lots and lots of tanks to jump in and join the fight. More tanks spawning near forward flag zones to reenforce the area if your team has that flag.
So is there anyone so far with mapping skills that would be willing to try and make FH2 better?
-
I'd be willing to experiment with the map...
-
Could you also fix the lakes, the mountains, the roads and the villages? None of those should be there. This is in the middle of the African desert, not somewhere in Afghanistan or whatever the hell it looks like.
-
If you honestly want to rescue this map, make it tunisia and put in the americans. Otherwise, a good operation aberdeen map would have to start from scratch due to the terrain.
-
Meh, I could start one from scratch...
I think i might need the FH2 editor files again though. BF2editor crashes when I load FH2 as the mod.
-
Okay I am a bit confused....(Correct me)
Okay, Gazala
(http://www.bfewaw.com/trexer/fh2wiki/gazala/minimap.jpg)
(http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/ww2%20europe/EuropeanTheaterGIF/WWIIEurope36.gif)
----------------------------------------
'The Cauldron' supposed Operation Aberdeen.
It look as it took place around Sidi Muftah.
(http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/ww2%20europe/EuropeanTheaterGIF
/WWIIEurope37.gif)
-
Indeed. 21st Panzer Division used Sidi Muftah as a staging ground and the british troops tried to reach Sidi Muftah. North of Muftah was the flanking 88 positions of Bir El Scerab. Once the 88's wiped out british tanks, the 21st Panzer Division charged against the remaining survivors from Sidi Muftah directly. British conducted their attacks from Knightsbridge. Notice Bir El Harmat, the small settlement I've mentioned before.
-
Okay found a better map.
Thanks Flippy, I am less confused.
The Map (http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/Maps/cauldron_map.jpg)
*Source (http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/battles1942.htm#Gazala)
Edit:Better
-
why did aberdeen was made with such an arbitrary desing? =<
-
Who wants to go old school?
(http://bfgamerz.com/images/maps/1942_aberdeen.jpg)
Nope.
-
why did aberdeen was made with such an arbitrary desing? =<
IIRC it as a test map and got added so there was one more map in the first release. It was actually one of the first fh2 maps ever made.
-
why did aberdeen was made with such an arbitrary desing? =<
IIRC it as a test map and got added so there was one more map in the first release. It was actually one of the first fh2 maps ever made.
While this is true, it is largely due to the fact that some mappers care very little about the authenticity of their maps and are more than happy when players can simply enjoy its gameplay.
-
Who wants to go old school?
(http://bfgamerz.com/images/maps/1942_aberdeen.jpg)
Nope.
Aberdeen in FH1 was always a german victory. I so remebered and Hated that map well
SO in FH3, aberdeen becomes Italian biased. All in favor?
-
why did aberdeen was made with such an arbitrary desing? =<
IIRC it as a test map and got added so there was one more map in the first release. It was actually one of the first fh2 maps ever made.
While this is true, it is largely due to the fact that some mappers care very little about the authenticity of their maps and are more than happy when players can simply enjoy its gameplay.
Unfortunetly, people don't enjoy the gameplay of Aberdeen. :-\
-
Actually, Aberdeen is one of my favorites map in FH2. Aberdeen and Bardia: <3
Woaw, realy ? :o
I don't even see why we are discussing this map. The work involved is so big we could have a complete other desert map instead ...
Yes it was awesome.
And it has great Potential tho. If you dont want to discuss it, ignore this thread then :/
-
Unfortunetly, people don't enjoy the gameplay of Aberdeen. :-\
Some people don't enjoy this at all. Others enjoy to varying degrees, but would like to see it improved in order to reach more of its potential (which it has plenty) and to get people to play it again.
Since chaning the OOB area, moving flags around, and changing what spawns where is considerably faster and easier than starting to fiddle with the statics or even making a new map from scratch, us who would love to see the map reach its full potential are suggesting the former as a quick fix. It may not make the map perfect, but if it's an improvement over the current version, if there's someone interested to do it, then why shoot it down?
-
I WILL DO IT.
(http://www.ohthescandal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/frodo.jpg)
I WILL ATTEMPT TO REMAKE OPERATION ABERDEEN.
-
+1 to Kelmola. Couldn't agree more. Although there still will be this issue with the PzIII cupola :(
-
Unfortunetly, people don't enjoy the gameplay of Aberdeen. :-\
Some people don't enjoy this at all. Others enjoy to varying degrees, but would like to see it improved in order to reach more of its potential (which it has plenty) and to get people to play it again.
Since chaning the OOB area, moving flags around, and changing what spawns where is considerably faster and easier than starting to fiddle with the statics or even making a new map from scratch, us who would love to see the map reach its full potential are suggesting the former as a quick fix. It may not make the map perfect, but if it's an improvement over the current version, if there's someone interested to do it, then why shoot it down?
Never shot it done. Like I said, I think the best way to make this a good map would actually be to change the entire scenario to a Tunisia USvGermans map.
-
Unfortunetly, people don't enjoy the gameplay of Aberdeen. :-\
Some people don't enjoy this at all. Others enjoy to varying degrees, but would like to see it improved in order to reach more of its potential (which it has plenty) and to get people to play it again.
Since chaning the OOB area, moving flags around, and changing what spawns where is considerably faster and easier than starting to fiddle with the statics or even making a new map from scratch, us who would love to see the map reach its full potential are suggesting the former as a quick fix. It may not make the map perfect, but if it's an improvement over the current version, if there's someone interested to do it, then why shoot it down?
Never shot it done. Like I said, I think the best way to make this a good map would actually be to change the entire scenario to a Tunisia USvGermans map.
A Tiger would own everything sitting in main :D
But is really making Americans for NA worth what is essentially an old test map?
-
Unfortunetly, people don't enjoy the gameplay of Aberdeen. :-\
Some people don't enjoy this at all. Others enjoy to varying degrees, but would like to see it improved in order to reach more of its potential (which it has plenty) and to get people to play it again.
Since chaning the OOB area, moving flags around, and changing what spawns where is considerably faster and easier than starting to fiddle with the statics or even making a new map from scratch, us who would love to see the map reach its full potential are suggesting the former as a quick fix. It may not make the map perfect, but if it's an improvement over the current version, if there's someone interested to do it, then why shoot it down?
Never shot it done. Like I said, I think the best way to make this a good map would actually be to change the entire scenario to a Tunisia USvGermans map.
A Tiger would own everything sitting in main :D
But is really making Americans for NA worth what is essentially an old test map?
Well, I'm just pointing out that it is a way to make the terrain match the history. Also, what Tigers? They weren't used against the americans at Kasserine ;).
-
Just how different are the US African unis vs the Europe ones?
ie, if someone makes a scenario that works as US/German. Use the normandy ones as placeholders, perhaps someone in the community could reskin?
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=13099.0
I'd really like to see the FH community put on hold the constant flamewars on gunsights and olive drab, get together to try and make FH2 better. So far one mapper, lets get more ideas.
-
No difference. :P
-
I could ask Roni to make a desert reskin for the Americans..
-
Do we have 37mm Gun M3 for US? We can see American rookies firing 37mm desperately at PzIVs just like PaK38 vs Matilda ;)
-
I could ask Roni to make a desert reskin for the Americans..
Like I said, its the same skin....
-
So here are some ideas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kasserine_Pass
You have to look at the map with North being left.
US vs Germans
Big flag zones for teamwork + tanking to get. Proferably close all the buildings. Maybe start all the flags as US. Each spawner point could produce bundles of tanks. So 5 guys could spawn there and drive off in tanks that respawn every 10 secs on the spot or so. Perhaps different versions of P3/P4 to mix it up. Tigers only spawn once, so 2 on the entire map. No idea if the Grants can even take them down though with 20 shots.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/kasserine.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_El_Guettar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tunisia30Janto10Apr1943.jpg
Same wrong compass direction
US vs Italian/German Reenforcments
Grants and Shermans in this one vs P3/P4 maybe some Carro Armatos to make it feel more italian. Make the stronger reenforcments tied to the Gafsa/El guettar flags so that it better represents the German Reenforcments. Maybe some scout cars around.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/ElGeutter.jpg)
Ive no idea on the accuracy, but perhaps it is closer to those battles than aberdeen is for the map layout. I really would like to see a big tank battle that doesnt have the tiny crummy flag zones to appease the infantry need. Infantry duty stinks on this map, so get rid of it I think. Could a flag be set to be only cappable if you are in a vehicle? :)
-
Looks good, but no Tigers in Kasserine ;)
-
I've already started on a complete remake with historical information from Von Mudra as a basis.
-
Please, don't tell me you want to fire the Valentine from the only map where it is used. That would make me a sad bunny. :'(
-
..There will be matildas :-[
-
Please, don't tell me you want to fire the Valentine from the only map where it is. That would make me a sad bunny. :'(
I agree, even though the map has no resemblance to real terrain, keeping to the Aberdeen theme would be better as it would allow Val.
Although, since Hatab river did split the Kasserine battlefield in half, it would fit.
Did the Americans not have any Shermans in Kasserine?
-
Well maybe for FH2 sake I will add a few valentines.
-
Please, don't tell me you want to fire the Valentine from the only map where it is. That would make me a sad bunny. :'(
I agree, even though the map has no resemblance to real terrain, keeping to the Aberdeen theme would be better as it would allow Val.
Although, since Hatab river did split the Kasserine battlefield in half, it would fit.
Did the Americans not have any Shermans in Kasserine?
Yes, they had plenty.
-
Thanks for being the first one to step up Josh.
From my 5 minute research it sounded like stuarts and grants in the first go round, then shermans in the push back?
and a 5 minute cheesy idea for promoting it. I think it would be best to have a few versions to test. Whether they were Aberdeen, Kasserine or something else. Get the maps done by End of Feb, put together an installer, then play. Just need a few more mappers to make some different versions.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/Untitled-2.jpg)
-
you may want to chang ethe ligthing and make it more sunny xD
-
According to VM the main allied tanks would be Crusaders and Honeys, followed by Grants and Matildas.
-
During Aberdeen? Correctomundo. But *also* Valentines. But yes, he said the magic word "Main". Majority of tanks were Stuarts and Crusaders. Dont ignore sweet sweet Valentine. ;)
-
Get the maps done by End of Feb, put together an installer, then play. Just need a few more mappers to make some different versions.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/Untitled-2.jpg)
I love the idea to let the community decide and discuss about the reworking of this map. It would be a great thing for the community and a chance to participate in the development of this map. It might be even an interesting look behind the scenes, how a map is done and what the mappers have to think about and such
-
Thanks for being the first one to step up Josh.
From my 5 minute research it sounded like stuarts and grants in the first go round, then shermans in the push back?
and a 5 minute cheesy idea for promoting it. I think it would be best to have a few versions to test. Whether they were Aberdeen, Kasserine or something else. Get the maps done by End of Feb, put together an installer, then play. Just need a few more mappers to make some different versions.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t64/phillipwilson/Untitled-2.jpg)
Start a thread in the modding sub-forum and I'll be glad to help out.
-
...
Start a thread in the modding sub-forum and I'll be glad to help out.
I wasn't sure where to put the thread, since it is sort of tied to both forums.
The suggestion forum part is : Would the devteam be up to allowing the community to try and improve Aberdeen since it is (nearly) universally disliked.
The modding forum part is: We need community mappers to try reworking the map.
If the moderator overlords want it in one forum or the other, i've no beef. Or were you thinking splitting it in a manner?
-
The question is not whether or not we'd allow the community to undertake such a project. We theoretically have no control over what individuals do with our maps. The only thing we control is whether or not it goes into the mod.
The question is...the quality of the resulting map after the project is complete. If the map is still crap, we won't bother with it, but if its good enough, we'll take a look at it.
-
The question is not whether or not we'd allow the community to undertake such a project. We theoretically have no control over what individuals do with our maps. The only thing we control is whether or not it goes into the mod.
The question is...the quality of the resulting map after the project is complete. If the map is still crap, we won't bother with it, but if its good enough, we'll take a look at it.
That's what I presumed. I think having 3-4 people trying to come up with better gameplay ideas/implementations will be more likely to find a winner that is better that the status quo. And it could make it more fun to have a few versions to play test at one time.
-
The devs team should continue working on new things like new theaters, vehicles etc. even if I would like a lot NA maps to be put up to date, so let the community work on that and let devs work on the Bulge and the future Eastern front. The only thing that devs will need to do is to validate the work made, and to come play on the beta server specialy created for testing new maps :P
-
well heres my ideas, incase your still interested
Aberdeen V.2
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4077/operationaberdeenmyvers.png)
or US vs Germans in El Guettar
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8526/operationaberdeenusvers.png)
the grey flags on the El Guettar version to not give any new vehicles, just static emplacements such as AT guns or MGs, the main vehicle forces only come from the base
(btw the 745th Tank Regiment is controlled by US, still new to Photoshop)
-
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=13500.0
-
Some tips for kasserine.
Tunis Stuka skin, americans - ask Hanley to make them look as rugged as the Afrika corp and pale their uniform a bit, need the lee, stuarts and grant - reskins? Sherman - also reskin? Could do with an american plane. I'd say reskin and tweak handling for p51 and change engine sound to say, the p47.
Add lightning, thunder and rain and make the level lighten depressing
Research map layout and distances to come up with something realistic.
And we have a brand new american map with planes in NA! Fresh blood for NA
-
Some tips for kasserine.
Tunis Stuka skin, americans - ask Hanley to make them look as rugged as the Afrika corp and pale their uniform a bit, need the lee, stuarts and grant - reskins? Sherman - also reskin? Could do with an american plane. I'd say reskin and tweak handling for p51 and change engine sound to say, the p47.
Add lightning, thunder and rain and make the level lighten depressing
Research map layout and distances to come up with something realistic.
And we have a brand new american map with planes in NA! Fresh blood for NA
Americans were green, their uniforms shouldn't look rugged at all.
As for info for Kassereine, as I continue to note, no Tigers fought the americans in north africa.
-
the green should be a diferent green, since in desert eviroment it tends to fade and get dirt from the sand
-
Didnt mention any :-)
What were there though: panzer 2, 3, 4 with short and long cannon. Perhaps reskinned pz4 with brown patches? Stug? Marder 3? Sdkfz222 hanomag commando? We have variants we could throw in.
Nebelwerfer? Pak38s, flak 18 88mm?
Do we need an AT rifle or can we have zooks?
-
Didnt mention any :-)
What were there though: panzer 2, 3, 4 with short and long cannon. Perhaps reskinned pz4 with brown patches? Stug? Marder 3? Sdkfz222 hanomag commando? We have variants we could throw in.
Nebelwerfer? Pak38s, flak 18 88mm?
Do we need an AT rifle or can we have zooks?
Pak 40 is appropriate, as are some short and mostly long barrel Pz4F2, some later Pz3, and Pz2 was phased out by now. 88mm of course, but this was a defensive battle for the US. Stugs weren't used in africa (other than two short barrel in the western desert campaign), etc. US was using zooks by now though, so no need for an AT rifle, though they were the M1 version, and had an even weaker round.
@ Sicario, I meant they were green, as in they were fresh, clean cut troops, who hadn't really seen combat yet at all.
-
Stugs weren't used in africa (other than two short barrel in the western desert campaign), etc.
6 StuG III F/8 were also sent to Tunisia in November 1942 (only 4 of which made it there).
-
Could do with an american plane. I'd say reskin and tweak handling for p51 and change engine sound to say, the p47.
And we have a brand new american map with planes in NA! Fresh blood for NA
The only USAAF Mustang to reach MTO before Kasserine was the F-6A recon variant (based on Allison-engined P-51A), A-36 Apaches arrived in April '43, B/C Mustangs arrived only in April '44, D's started arriving only very late in 1944!
P-47's reached USAAF units in MTO only in October 1943.
Historically correct US fighters would be early-model P-38's (F/G/H, externally identical), P-39's, or P-40's. Alas, none of these are in the mod.
Ironically, there is however an aircraft that was in the US service in the MTO at the time and is in the mod: none other than the Spit VB, flown by 31st and 52nd FG ;D So we would just need an American skin for the Spit. A truly forgotten hope as not many outside this forum would know that the Spit ever saw US service.
-
The P-39's could act as fighter bombers(with 230 KG payload of bombs). The P-40 could be the main fighter. The P-38 could be epic heavy fighter(But then ME110 should also show up)
Problem solved. Now to find some crazy people to model and put these babies ingame and a kasserine map
and new uniforms for amis
and m3 lees
And 37mm M1 AA guns (Yes no bofors, if we wanna be historical accurate, then we need these guns)
Also 37mm AT guns
ooh boy this is some work
-
Stugs weren't used in africa (other than two short barrel in the western desert campaign), etc.
6 StuG III F/8 were also sent to Tunisia in November 1942 (only 4 of which made it there).
Ack, that's right, the F! I always forget about it. Still, would need a new model for it....
Also, @ theta, as I keep pointing out, amis wore exactly the same uniform in africa as they did everywhere in the ETO. And considering they were brand new troops, if anything, it should look CLEANER than what it looks like now.
-
TheTA: so what's wrong with the bomb-laden Spit VB, until we could get those schmexy ladies? :P
-
I read in some places that Kasserine was a Grant graveyard, and in others that the shermans were there. Where shermans there in just limited numbers or what?
-
I read in some places that Kasserine was a Grant graveyard, and in others that the shermans were there. Where shermans there in just limited numbers or what?
US had both there, donno about their numbers of each though. I'd imagine that Grant and Lee numbers were pretty equal by that point in the war, plus Stuarts.
-
http://books.google.com/books?id=X-BEFS4viNkC&lpg=PA28&ots=Ocwbkc0zZX&dq=M4%20Sherman%20in%20Kasserine%20pass&pg=PA28#v=onepage&q&f=false
Most of the medium tanks in the 1st Armored Division were the M4 and M4A1 medium tank
So then a Kasserine map could be something like (a guess)
75% M4A1 Sherman, 20% Grant, 5% Stuart
(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imagesfh2/vehicles/Sherman%20II/small.gif)(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imagesfh2/vehicles/M3%20Grant%20Mk%20I/small.gif)(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imagesfh2/vehicles/M3%20Stuart%20II/small.gif)
60% Pz IV Ausf. F2, 10% Pz IV Ausf. F 10% Pz III Ausf. N 20% Pz III Ausf. J (late)
(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imagesfh2/vehicles/PzKpfw%20IV%20Ausf.%20F2/small.gif)(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imagesfh2/vehicles/PzKpfw%20IV%20Ausf.%20F/small.gif)(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imagesfh2/vehicles/PzKpfw%20III%20Ausf.%20N/small.gif)(http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/imagesfh2/vehicles/PzKpfw%20III%20Ausf.%20J%20(late)/small.gif)
The "Aberdeen map" would be really slick changed to Kasserine or one of the battles part of kasserine
-
I dont think the Germans had that many PZIV ausf F2. Mostly Panzer III ausf J long barreld i think
we need SOS von mudra
edit=He has confirmed
TheTA: so what's wrong with the bomb-laden Spit VB, until we could get those schmexy ladies? :P
They fail horribly vs Fw190
-
By this time, the F2/G model was becoming common, so yes, that's pretty correct. I would put in more Lee/Grants though.
-
And stuarts
I'de say, if we have 15 tanks for allies(JUST A NUMBER DONT ATTACK ME WITH BALANCE THIS AND THAT)
6 Shermans,5 Lee's.4 stuarts.
-
Could be possible the Panzer III Ausf. L instead of the Ausf. J? (although i've never seen in FH a desert skin for the Ausf.L, perfectly made by Rad). I suggested a time ago to port the Ausf. M:
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=11244.msg144029#msg144029
-
Are you guys talking about Kasserine? I'm getting abit lost now :P
-
TheTA: so what's wrong with the bomb-laden Spit VB, until we could get those schmexy ladies? :P
They fail horribly vs Fw190
The 190A-8 we currently have in the mod was produced from February 1944 onwards, if you want your beloved Wolfs for the Tunisian campaign you should kindly ask the devs to add A-4/Trop or A-5/Trop (or even F-2/Trop or G-1, 2, 3, or 4/Trop). :troll: So in the Kasserine map the American-skinned Spit VB would fly against the 109E-7 or F-4 instead - no new planes needed, only the American skin for the Spit.
-
Americans flew spitfires? :o
-
Yeah. The 31st and 52nd FG came to England in 1942 as P-39 units, but since the Cobra was unsuitable for long-range fighter sweeps and bomber escort (both requiring high-altitude performance) which were required in the ETO, and since their planes had not yet been shipped to them anyway, they converted to Spitfires (remember that even during the Battle of Britain the RAF had a lack of pilots, not planes).
Which actually was quite sensible, since the 4th FG, the former "Eagle Squadrons" that had been transferred to USAAF after Pearl Harbor, was already flying Spits as well, and the VIII Fighter Command of the 8th AF at the time pretty much consisted of those three Groups only.
After the decision to go ahead with the Torch, the newly-established 12th AF then commandeered much of the US fighter strength in the UK, including two of the three Spitfire-equipped Groups. Again, it made sense since the RAF already operated Spits in the MTO and "tropical gear" was readily available for the VB.
-
I know thread necromancy is frowned upon, but I didn't think this was worth opening a new thread.
It's been a long, long time since I have reminisced about modding and thought I'd see how things are going.
I am the one who (mostly) made Aberdeen, and since I am the only one to suffer the ignominy of having his work removed I felt the need to defend or explain, somewhat. And perhaps add to the FH development lore.
Aberdeen sucked because it was an unfinished map. I was a lot more hot-tempered and immature in those days and half-way through making the map I spat the dummy for a reason I don't remember and quit. I gave them permission to finish the map and use it without me, because it was the first release and they would not have had many maps at that stage, but as it turned out, they had a number of maps, and they only made minor changes to it, so it was released nothing like what I would have envisioned had I completed it, and was in fact only half finished.
A few things:
- It didn't have an airfield when I worked on it, haha
- The centre town made more sense through the prism of single-player - the first time I fired it up with bots, the bots fought like crazy for that middle town and it was the first time I had played against bots where it was a real fight. It was great and I wanted to nurture that, because in those days no one paid attention to bot gameplay (I was the first person to release a single player map for BF1942, actually Desert Combat, with the help of a guy named Arc D'Wraith).
- Its true it was not historically accurate, I was one of the earliest developers for Point of Existence (BFV and BF2) so my background was in making fun maps and shoe-horning in a story to fit. I was different to the typical FH developers who came from historical accuracy perspectives. It is what it is.
- Because I left and it was really only patched up with band-aids for release, that meant it was a map without an owner and no one was invested in keeping it up to date with updates in the game's vehicles and weapons - it takes a lot of time to balance a map and if it isn't your map, you aren't going to spend the time required.
- The initial layout was wider OOB area and had 2 or 3 more CPs, but again, it was half finished and that also might have changed with proper development and ownership.
I really wish DICE would support modding again, even though I am old now and have no time haha.
-
I think a necro from the mapper is ok :D
I never hated Aberdeen, but it did get outdated quickly as the gameplay changed throughout the years. It served the mod very well for the first release tho
-
Nice post. I liked to read your story. Thank you for sharing.
-
It definitely looked and played probably unfinished. But with that ideas from Flippy on begining of thread and lowering height of map it could played good. I have some ideas more in my head that would look nice. Just there isnt manpower for that.
My question: why did you come back to tell us that after so long time of absence? Do you still follow fh2 forums and news(you were dev)? Do you still play FH2? Its just curious from me how did you remembered to come back and this thread :D
-
Augustus i still play Aberdeen with bots from time to time and i enjoy it so thanks.