Forgotten Hope News Update: 20th August 2009: Total War

[G.Drew]

Its a shame that these tank aces have all been mostly forgotten about, in comparison to all the other tank aces, Wittman was an arrogant, delusional person, and somewhat of a fool.

But he got the job done. I'm not defending him nor hating him. He is just a populized figure that gets alot of honour while obviously his gunner made the kills, he led the tank to that situation, right? He wasn't a retard or something.

Oh no, he was far from retarded, and no doubt that he has an effective tanker. But from what ive read about him, he was bold, so bold that it was on the verge on the delusional, and in the end it cost him his life (then again, he was only in that engagement because he viewed the company commander as 'not experienced enough').

Yep, I agree.  He fully believed the propaganda, and let it go to his head, which led to his suicidal charge at Villers (which almost cost him his life, and the lives of 3 tank crews), and the charge that led to his death.  Also, don't forget he was a loyal SS and party member.

Exactly what I was going to say, he was in the SS, a loyal one at that. The guy was delusional. It sort of figures really...

[Tedacious]

Its a shame that these tank aces have all been mostly forgotten about, in comparison to all the other tank aces, Wittman was an arrogant, delusional person, and somewhat of a fool.

But he got the job done. I'm not defending him nor hating him. He is just a populized figure that gets alot of honour while obviously his gunner made the kills, he led the tank to that situation, right? He wasn't a retard or something.

Oh no, he was far from retarded, and no doubt that he has an effective tanker. But from what ive read about him, he was bold, so bold that it was on the verge on the delusional, and in the end it cost him his life (then again, he was only in that engagement because he viewed the company commander as 'not experienced enough').

Yep, I agree.  He fully believed the propaganda, and let it go to his head, which led to his suicidal charge at Villers (which almost cost him his life, and the lives of 3 tank crews), and the charge that led to his death.  Also, don't forget he was a loyal SS and party member.

Therein lies something that may be called retardness.

[Fuchs]

Easy to say that in 2009 Ted.. Wonder what you would have done in Nazi Germany around 1940.

[VonMudra]

Yep, hindsight is 20/20....

[Smiles]

Hindsight 20/20? lol i thought there was a reason for beginning a court against warcriminals

[Fearbefore.]

It's definitely fair to say Wittman was at least ballsy and arrogant, probably just a bit too much so for his own good. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe at the time he was killed he had given orders to drive straight through an open field without even checking the forests/trees lining the field, trees which, as it so happened, held Sherman Fireflies?

[VonMudra]

Yes, he did.

@ Smiles:  Wittmann wasn't a war criminal....=/  IN fact, the majority of nazi party members weren't.

[G.Drew]

He made several mistakes which cost him, key of which being:
Not gathering intelligence before hand.
Charged straight into enemy held territory with an exposed flank.

[Lobo]

Wittmann wasn't a war criminal....=/  IN fact, the majority of nazi party members weren't.

'09 Comedy Post of the Year

I have heard hilarious statements in my life, but this for sure earns the World and Olympic Records

[Kelmola]

Wittmann wasn't a war criminal....=/  IN fact, the majority of nazi party members weren't.

'09 Comedy Post of the Year

I have heard hilarious statements in my life, but this for sure earns the World and Olympic Records

While the Nazi party was judged to be a criminal organization, and therefore, members were considered to be criminals as well, most of them were never punished for explicit criminal activity or war crimes, just for supporting the ideology. In fact, most Party members were considered to have been "hang-arounds" (Mitläufer) at the most and were declared "denazified" soon after. The party leaders, agitators, etc. were a different case and were judged accordingly, but they were in the minority even among the former party members.

In the Third Reich, joining the Nazi party was not a particular political statement. It was something most did just to fit in with the crowd, to be able to get promotions or to be hired as civil servants, NOT because they wanted to put Generalplan Ost into action or something like that. Compare to this: in our age and society, if you're a member of a trade union, it does not necessarily mean that you are a die-hard Communist. (Some might be, but most are not.)

[Fuchs]

Wittmann wasn't a war criminal....=/  IN fact, the majority of nazi party members weren't.

'09 Comedy Post of the Year

I have heard hilarious statements in my life, but this for sure earns the World and Olympic Records

Well.. It's how you look at it Lobo. Before 'dem Natsi's' being elected you had the Nazi Party with people wanting change who paid a montly fee to assist their political club. Those are also members and I'm sure not all of them are criminals. But if you look at it like the people who led Germany, those are all bad guys.

[Lobo]

Yes guys, I was not talking from a legal point of view, it's from a moral one.

Directly or indirectly, because he or she truly believed in that ideology or was forced by the circunstances, a member of NSDAP was a piece in the crime machine that caused the Shoa and a world war with 50 millions as death toll.

In any case this is not the off-topic forum, I don't want to derail more the thread. I know VonMudra wanted to mean another point, but his sentence is pure surrealism.

[VonMudra]

So basically Lobo, you're saying that the local Nazi party member in Osnabruck who helped post propaganda leaflets was a war criminal.  That's like saying that every communist party member in the USSR was a commisar and shot soldiers in the back.  Did they join and probably help spread an evil institution?  Yes.  But did they themselves commit the crimes?  Mostly, no.

[Meadow]

Regardless of the status of the Nazi party, membership of the SS was itself ruled to be a war crime at Nuremberg. Not that I agree with that decision - Nuremberg to me is a massive betrayal of the ideals we apparently went to war to preserve - but it stands nonetheless. Judged at the end of the war, Wittman is a war criminal.

[Lobo]

They were, in the best case scenario, complice of war crimes and crimes against mankind, yeah.

But as I've said let's not derail more a news thread