Author Topic: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion  (Read 7551 times)

Offline SpotEnemyBoats

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #30 on: 11-06-2012, 05:06:40 »
Is it gonna happen anyway ? Ea/Dice won't release it until it's totally outdated. So far a destructible terrain is still something new. They won't make the engine accessable for modding until it's totally outdated I guess. And even then they probably don't want to give the concurrent companies a basis to work with and make a better engine one day. I might be wrong, but I don't think they are going to give the Frostbite engine free for excessive modding anytime soon. Chapter of modding Battlefield games is probably closed in the future.

There's nothing secret about scripted/prerendered destruction with havok physics, Half-Life 2 has it too. So I don't understand why FB2 is underwraps of just EA development studios.

Another option is when Valve releases Source 2, I think we can expect some revolutionary things from Valve when Hl3 releases someday.


Offline Zoologic

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #31 on: 11-06-2012, 08:06:03 »
The worst kind of businessmen is a techie guy who thinks they know more things about money than the finance guys, who think that they know how the market works and how to position their company in the competition.

Most of the times, they only got half of the information about why their shitty products sells. Technical-wise, Apple products are decent, but they are way overpriced, yet it sells. Overall, they are shitty. Besides, it is a fashion item.

But people in this child industry, like video game makers, think they should act like General Electric or 3M just because they listed themselves in NYSE and paid the executives with 7 digits salary. Again, your customers aren't that wise, guys. Of course, the customer being "fooled" argument is true in many sense. Because, many people buy games through short decision making process, or more extremely, impulsive. But that's $50-80 per products, not counting the DLCs. Time for these game publisher giants to realize what world they are in, start acting like Google or Apple. You are not Microsoft FGS! You cannot maximize profit the way grown up industries does.

Grown up companies like GE or 3M (or even Microsoft) deal with real business guys. Business guys has moneys, most of times more than $80 at their dispense. Their buyers ranged from well informed ones to the silly ones, but later type is pretty rare. GE, Boeing, United Technologies, Toyota, maximize profits by squeezing their customers' pocket, because they took enormous amount of resources to sell their stuff. They don't simply appear on TV or Game time to urge the audiences to cash in.

Higher ups of game making companies can diss their common customers critics like Joe sixpack or blue collar Steve, because those guys don't have any clue about how sophisticated SEC-restricted entity is being run behind all those off-the-shelf video game titles.

But trust me, the average guy in Wall Street, the 1%, business experts, stock market analysts, never recommend child's play shares for long term investment. Not because they can't cash in quickly on new projects, not because it is a gamble whenever they release a title (or sequel), not because they don't perform well in relative to other industries. But we see them as a kid toying with grown-ups business tool: they simply don't belong here. Remove the suit, quit the business model, screw the financial reports and SEC fillings, and listen!

Because, when you go down, nobody gives a shite... there's always free games or indie developers there who could always do better.

Offline Natty

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #32 on: 11-06-2012, 08:06:36 »
P.S. You are old enough to recall a time when Publishers allowed mods Natty, In fact you got your start in the industry by being a modder. So yes, it was the publishers that fucked over the industry by wrongfully claiming that mods eat business

Except they didn't. The reason there is no public frostbite editor isn't because some EA guys in suits barged in to the DICE office forbidding them to release them because "mods will eat our business"... really, you think mods matter that much?  :P It's not like some mods would be made for BC2 or BF3 that would change the business by even 0.001%, not like players would stop buying other EA titles just so they could play their mod.

no no.... the reasons are stated many times already. If it was possible, and if dice needed it, they would open up the possibility for user created content, but it isn't needed, just like it isn't for so many other games. In simple terms, a new IP needs mod tools more, since you're establishing your fan base. But when you're down 20+ titles in that franchise and 10 years and have developed a world-leading engine which you can license out and use to pioneer new design and tech, then "mod tools" become very low priority. Anyone can understand that... The days when DICE was a bunch of happy amateurs in a basement watching bf42 come to life before their eyes are gone. Now it's big big business, and "mods" remain part of that fan-base fun from early 00's decade.

Other games, that have a problem getting a foot-hold on the market, like say ArmA, they need mods way more, and the impact some mods can have for their fanbase can really set them off in the right direction.
But trust me, if ArmA receives good reviews and sales on ArmA III and get someone to invest (belive) in them enough to finance them a new engine, you won't see any "mod tools" for ArmA IV. They simply won't need it anymore.

SiCariO, your hay-days are gone... you used to be able to throw decent baits out, now you're like a retired old man feeding bread-crumbs to the ducks. And Im the white swan who graciously sweeps by, ignoring them (I see a baby in a stroller Im gonna snatch instead, because everyone knows swans eats babies, they do  :o)

To get back on topic: FH"3" could happen, but not before we stop this BF2 modding business, which is unlikely to stop anytime soon, because you guys keep asking for russia, italy, finland, pacific etc etc... we could keep patching FH2 until 2020.... :-\

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #33 on: 11-06-2012, 09:06:25 »
To get back on topic: FH"3" could happen, but not before we stop this BF2 modding business, which is unlikely to stop anytime soon, because you guys keep asking for russia, italy, finland, pacific etc etc... we could keep patching FH2 until 2020.... :-\

Ok, BTT

For instance, what makes FH decides to move on from BF1942 to BF2 engine?

At that time, it requires me to upgrade my PC as well. But dunno, whether it was worth it or not. I still miss some elements from BF1942, the battles seem to be more epic. But it is less involving than BF2. To move on into BF:BC series engine doesn't mean an improvement. Sure, it has nicer graphics and more actions (destroy buildings, more melee fun, etc), but it also represents narrower battlefield. Fields are smaller, making battles seems less epic, but more intense.

The idea of 128 players makes more sense here, because given the big map size that previous BF titles has, it ought to take that much number of players to make a battlefield live.

Offline versus

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #34 on: 11-06-2012, 09:06:36 »
What about UDK?

Dunno bout the playersize etc... But its a nice game engine... RO2 uses it, many others use it...




Offline SiCaRiO

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #35 on: 11-06-2012, 11:06:04 »
Is it gonna happen anyway ? Ea/Dice won't release it until it's totally outdated. So far a destructible terrain is still something new. They won't make the engine accessable for modding until it's totally outdated I guess. And even then they probably don't want to give the concurrent companies a basis to work with and make a better engine one day. I might be wrong, but I don't think they are going to give the Frostbite engine free for excessive modding anytime soon. Chapter of modding Battlefield games is probably closed in the future.

There's nothing secret about scripted/prerendered destruction with havok physics, Half-Life 2 has it too. So I don't understand why FB2 is underwraps of just EA development studios.

Another option is when Valve releases Source 2, I think we can expect some revolutionary things from Valve when Hl3 releases someday.

well, FB2 has a damn good network code. Try to use Source in a big mutiplayer map with 64 players and tons of dinamic objects and see how long till your server crashes or players start complaining about lag and hits not registratin :P

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #36 on: 11-06-2012, 13:06:19 »

Except they didn't. The reason there is no public frostbite editor isn't because some EA guys in suits barged in to the DICE office forbidding them to release them because "mods will eat our business"... really, you think mods matter that much?  :P It's not like some mods would be made for BC2 or BF3 that would change the business by even 0.001%, not like players would stop buying other EA titles just so they could play their mod.

no no.... the reasons are stated many times already. If it was possible, and if dice needed it, they would open up the possibility for user created content, but it isn't needed, just like it isn't for so many other games. In simple terms, a new IP needs mod tools more, since you're establishing your fan base. But when you're down 20+ titles in that franchise and 10 years and have developed a world-leading engine which you can license out and use to pioneer new design and tech, then "mod tools" become very low priority. Anyone can understand that... The days when DICE was a bunch of happy amateurs in a basement watching bf42 come to life before their eyes are gone. Now it's big big business, and "mods" remain part of that fan-base fun from early 00's decade.

Other games, that have a problem getting a foot-hold on the market, like say ArmA, they need mods way more, and the impact some mods can have for their fanbase can really set them off in the right direction.
But trust me, if ArmA receives good reviews and sales on ArmA III and get someone to invest (belive) in them enough to finance them a new engine, you won't see any "mod tools" for ArmA IV. They simply won't need it anymore.


I'm sorry Natty but that's utter bovine excrement... It is needed (well according to the fans of the series), but it's not wanted, if they can make a DLC every few months and charge 10 $ for it... There are countless examples of newer games and established franchises that still allow mod tools... Take TES Skyrim for example, they surely don't have a problem getting a foot-hold on the market? Paradox Interactive's Grand Scale Strategy series, Grand Theft Auto, even the holder of the biggest part of the market: Call of Duty!

The fact is that EA/DICE got its golden hen in FB2 and isn't willing to share it with the competiton and have a potential loss of profit... I'm sorry but that's how they roll... The days of "friendly, altruistic" big publishers are slowly coming to an end...
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Nissi

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #37 on: 11-06-2012, 13:06:05 »
And you would do it differently?

Even if I don't like that there are no modtools for it I wouldn't share my key assets like that.

Please focus on other parts of this interesting topic than EA/DICE. They made the games on which our mods were built which I am thankful and the rest I do not comment because lack of knowledge and interest.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #38 on: 11-06-2012, 14:06:35 »
And you would do it differently?

Even if I don't like that there are no modtools for it I wouldn't share my key assets like that.

Please focus on other parts of this interesting topic than EA/DICE. They made the games on which our mods were built which I am thankful and the rest I do not comment because lack of knowledge and interest.

Well I was just stating a point, I can't blame them for doing it. Hopefully by 2020 (if the Apocalypse doesn't kill us  :P) EA will release modding tools for the (outdated) FB so FH 3(?) can be a true sequel, on the traditional platform...  ;)
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #39 on: 11-06-2012, 15:06:33 »
FB2 engine is highly dependent on third-party components when it comes to physics and destructible terrain. Way back before BF3 there was a lengthy technical explanation from a DICE employee explaining the process. Basically these third-party tools in their developer versions are needed to "compile" a level (the destruction is not fully dynamic, you see, it's partially pre-calculated, otherwise FB2-powered games wouldn't run on consoles). Basically any change to the game required for all the levels to be compiled - even adding a weapon.

Providing these tools is less of a technical and more of a licensing issue, because providing those tools in a way that would only allow them to edit the content of one game only is tricky (and their developers might not want to give out free copies of those programs that could be used for anything and everything for every buyer of the game). So even in a world where DLC's did not exist, mod tools for FB2 engine might not become available outside the software house that has the licences to the required software. Some sort of limited-licence SDK to "reputable" mod teams (ie. FH and PR) or by application only might be within the realms of possibility once the DLCs have been cashed in and the "GOTY Edition" bundling all the DLCs and unlocks has been relegated to bargain bin, but I wouldn't hold my breath even then.

Offline SpotEnemyBoats

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #40 on: 12-06-2012, 00:06:24 »
I honestly think they were lying about the licensing issues.

The 3rd party middleware in FB2 is havok physics and Unity Beast light mapping. According to the E3 commentary by the DICE dev's.

A) Havok has been in every single shooter since Quake (last I checked, TF2 started as a quake mod... so that game had no shortage of mods despite its middleware)

B) Unity beast lighting was in Mirrors Edge (which had a SDK mind you), but if I'm not mistaken I think it was in Crysis as well.

I honestly don't take what EA and DICE said at face value anymore, especially after "We nailed it!"


Is it gonna happen anyway ? Ea/Dice won't release it until it's totally outdated. So far a destructible terrain is still something new. They won't make the engine accessable for modding until it's totally outdated I guess. And even then they probably don't want to give the concurrent companies a basis to work with and make a better engine one day. I might be wrong, but I don't think they are going to give the Frostbite engine free for excessive modding anytime soon. Chapter of modding Battlefield games is probably closed in the future.

There's nothing secret about scripted/prerendered destruction with havok physics, Half-Life 2 has it too. So I don't understand why FB2 is underwraps of just EA development studios.

Another option is when Valve releases Source 2, I think we can expect some revolutionary things from Valve when Hl3 releases someday.

well, FB2 has a damn good network code. Try to use Source in a big mutiplayer map with 64 players and tons of dinamic objects and see how long till your server crashes or players start complaining about lag and hits not registratin :P


Have you seen the amount of complaints regarding its net code, I've seen people constantly moan on about the client side hit reg.

It depends on which version of the Source engine you're talking about, there's many iterations. Each one comes with new optimizations, and L4D2 has some nicely sized maps.

Also some movie company is using the Source engine to create a movie.

Offline Dukat

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #41 on: 12-06-2012, 01:06:50 »
no no.... the reasons are stated many times already. If it was possible, and if dice needed it, they would open up the possibility for user created content, but it isn't needed, just like it isn't for so many other games. In simple terms, a new IP needs mod tools more, since you're establishing your fan base. But when you're down 20+ titles in that franchise and 10 years and have developed a world-leading engine which you can license out and use to pioneer new design and tech, then "mod tools" become very low priority. Anyone can understand that... The days when DICE was a bunch of happy amateurs in a basement watching bf42 come to life before their eyes are gone. Now it's big big business, and "mods" remain part of that fan-base fun from early 00's decade.

So ignorance and arrogance keep dice from publishing mod tools? Because they've become the big player in this game? Because they know better than everybody else what people want to play? Honestly, that is worse than expected. That is just poor. I rather want to believe that this is your personal opinion and that the damned cash is the real reason.

If it is not for the cash, like in all other industries, then dice actually had a choice but didn't use it at all. :o

I usually imagine my own sounds with it, like `tjunk, tupdieyupdiedee` aaa enemy spotted, ratatatataboom

Offline Yustax

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #42 on: 12-06-2012, 03:06:58 »
So ignorance and arrogance keep dice from publishing mod tools? Because they've become the big player in this game? Because they know better than everybody else what people want to play? Honestly, that is worse than expected. That is just poor. I rather want to believe that this is your personal opinion and that the damned cash is the real reason.

If it is not for the cash, like in all other industries, then dice actually had a choice but didn't use it at all. :o

Their DLC sales would hurt. However, look what mods can provide. ARMA2 is in the first place or was in the first place (dont know at the moment) just because a mod (Dayz) brought it back there and generated tons of money just to play the mood. Now imagine if there was something similar made by modders that provide that kind of quantity to DICE. They dont really think in all the aspects, rather focusing in cheap and often incomplete methods of DLC with their big campaigns and there's still many aspects that are basic and are missing from the game...but what do they care? They have your money.

However, yes. Mod tools are what bring games to life, not just leave the other in the dust once the sequel comes out.

Offline Natty

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #43 on: 12-06-2012, 11:06:25 »
Mod tools are what bring games to life, not just leave the other in the dust once the sequel comes out.

O'rLy? I think BF3 came to life quite fine without "mods"  8)

About leaving in the dust.. 99% of all mod teams leave their own mods in the dust half-finished anyway, they just don't have what it takes to finalize a product.

Offline SiCaRiO

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Re: Hypothetical FH3 engine discussion
« Reply #44 on: 12-06-2012, 13:06:11 »
and it will die when DICE shoves us down our troath another shiny new game with slighly more guns, about a year from now :]