Author Topic: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor  (Read 5686 times)

Offline katakulli

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Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:50 »
  If somebody play fh, he already knows one thing; there is no fair combat between tanks on any map.  :P In one map stuarts have to fight vs panzer 3s, in another map panzer 3s have to fight vs shermans, theatres can change but that simple rule never change, grap your sherman and charge to panthers.... The  necessity is, if you want to beat your opponent, you have to flank him. This is possible in fh1 but not in fh2 because of two reasons.

  1. The red icon which appears on the screen after you get shot.
  In several maps a sherman driver has to flank panthers with a big and cumbersome tank while axis tanks, tank destroyers and at guns are everywhere. Let's say after spent several minutes sherman driver finally managed to flank and shoot panther's rear armor. So panther has 8 seconds to react. In one second panther driver realizes there is a red icon on the bottom of his screen and it means there is a tank behind him, all he needs an other second for a 180 degree turn with a mouse hack and booom...   :o sherman is destroyed in 2  seconds. Panther driver bails and repairs his tank.

  Result: Sherman driver flanked his opponent but got destroyed in two seconds for nothing, cool  8) Seriously why there is a magical icon on the screen, did it come with bf2  ???

  My suggestion : Please remove that icon.

  2. Reload times of main cannons

  Reload times of some vehicle's main cannons: ( Please correct me if i'm  wrong )

  Stuart                : 6   seconds
  Crusader (40mm)  : 6    seconds
  Panzer 3             : 6.5  seconds
  Daimler               : 7 seconds
  Panzer 4             : 8 seconds

  Let's use alam halfa as an example because we can find all of those vehicles at alam halfa. At the start of the map 3 stuart tanks have to fight vs 12 axis tanks  8) But how? The strange thing is panzer 3s destroy allied light tanks even if they shoot their frontal armor with 2 shots and panzer 4 f2s destroy them with a single shot and allied light tanks have no chance to penetrate their frontal armor and it requires 3 side shots to destroy axis medium tanks. Ok maybe allied guns are weak and axis tanks have thick frontal armor but why those light tanks' guns have unrealistically long reload time?

   Seriously stuart suck balls against tanks and it has weak he shells but it takes 6 seconds to reload it's main gun, on the other hand panzer 4 f2 kills even grants with just a single shot it also has devastating he shells and it takes just 2 more seconds to reload it's main gun, even it has nearly 2X bigger calibre gun. I think that's totally unfair and you should decrease the reload times based on calibre sizes.

    My suggestion: Please set reload times for
   
   Us 37mm guns ( m3, m5,m8,grant )  : 4 seconds
   Daimler                                       : 4,5 seconds to match with 2 pounder at guns
   All 75mm guns                              : 9 seconds
   Crusader: Discussable, because it has low profile, lots of ap, and if i'm not mistaken a bugged armor.
   Matilda and valentine : No, thanks.  ;D

   37mm guns vs panzer 4s rear armor

    Panzer 4's rear armor is just 20mm thick and currently can be penetrated by even rifle grenades but unfortunately it survives from 37mm shots even at very close ranges.

  Shooting panzer4 from 5 metres away...


  Panzer 4 returns fire with mouse hack  8)



  My suggestion: Please increase damage of 37mm guns vs panzer 4's and stug 4's rear armor at close range ( like 50 metres ) and make it killable with one shot.

   Stuart and greyhound vs panther

  There are 2 panthers at operation lüttich ( %50 of axis armor at this map ) and also there are 2 allied vehicles which are carrying 37mm guns, the problem is those vehicles are not capable to do any damage even if the panther driver is idling. Imagine player who controls the panther goes to toilette and here comes stuart and greyhound shooting, shooting, shooting and wtf!  :o they can't even damage the tank while player is peeing.  ;D
 
   My suggestion: Please make panther A's side and rear, panther G's only rear armor vulnerable to 37mm guns ( like %10 damage per shot like fh1 )

  Puma's panzergranate 40

   Currently puma has special ap, it's not just unrealistic but i believe it also destroys gameplay at ope. lüttich. Because such a close range sniping sherman's side armor is very easy and even worse it can fight frontally with m10 tank detroyer. In the end it wasn't a tank destroyer but a scout car which was carrying it's main gun just for self defence.

  My suggestion: Please remove panzergranate 40 from puma's payload.
Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.

Offline LHeureux

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #1 on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:20 »
My suggestion: Please remove panzergranate 40 from puma's payload.

So you wan't the Puma with only the AA canon? That would be cool on Luttich  8)

Nice suggestion in overall, for balancing.
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Offline Thorondor123

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #2 on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:07 »
SdKfz 234/2 "Puma" was always fitted with a 50 mm KwK.

As for the suggestion; I support different loading times for tank cannons.
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Offline katakulli

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #3 on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:03 »

So you wan't the Puma with only the AA canon? That would be cool on Luttich  8)

Nice suggestion in overall, for balancing.

 Dear LHeureux actually i'm talking about puma which has 50 mm main gun, not sdkfz 231 which has 20mm modified flak gun. And thanks for support Thorondor :)
« Last Edit: 13-01-2011, 22:01:06 by katakulli »
Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.

Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #4 on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:46 »
Trust me when I agree with Knoffhoff and tell you that the whole tank damage system is incredibly complicated and that a small change can have some rather large effects.  Afaik there are more than 20 armour materials for tanks, and a similar number of projectile materials, and each combination has a modifier that effects damage done.

If for example you change the damage that the 37mm does to PzIVH rear armour, you might upset the balance somewhere else.  And just for your info - the Matilda is much easier to kill than the Valentine - THAT is the tank with the most unfair weak spot.

Reloading times however, I have to agree with you.  I would base them on three conditions though - the calibre, if it's an open turret, and if there is a dedicated loader.  And I'd start off with the quicker times being not much shorter than current, but the longest times up to 10~12 seconds.

Offline Battlefieldfan45 (CroPanzer)

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #5 on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:01 »
AFAIK You can one-shot a panther with a sherman on the SIDE.
It's a very familiar weakspot  ;)

 
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Offline katakulli

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #6 on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:49 »
AFAIK You can one-shot a panther with a sherman on the SIDE.
It's a very familiar weakspot  ;)

  Just go and try to same thing at cobra vs panther gs  ;D
Basically, axis bias has removed. Glad its being noticed.

Offline Kwiot

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #7 on: 13-01-2011, 22:01:11 »
Yes, these Shermans on Cobra are really crap  :P But I think it is possible to shoot Panther with this Sherman with 1 shot...

I wonder why Brits didn't use these Shermans II from Africa in Normandy - they could destroy Tiger with one shot...  :-\

Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #8 on: 13-01-2011, 23:01:34 »
+1 supported on all those suggestions

This should also go for the 3.7cm PAK. Its ROF should also so be like the American 37mm

especialy the changes on OP luttich are great. 2 M4A1, one 76mm sherman,a M10 and 2 lights have to fight 2 PZIV, 2 panthers and that frakking lame Puma.
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Offline hankypanky

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #9 on: 13-01-2011, 23:01:29 »
I agree about the Puma. Right now players use it as a mobile tank destroyer, when it should be used for scouting and light inf support.
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #10 on: 13-01-2011, 23:01:42 »
not to mention german scout units where strictly forbidden to Engage armor. Only for self defense.

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Offline hankypanky

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #11 on: 13-01-2011, 23:01:01 »
not to mention german scout units where strictly forbidden to Engage armor. Only for self defense.



+1 The puma is like a TOW Humvee 0_o. It goes around the map one shot killing all the allied armor...
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Offline VonMudra

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #12 on: 13-01-2011, 23:01:36 »
As a note on the OP post, the reason the reload times are the way they are is because that's how long they were in real life.  The larger shells don't really make reloading harder, especially when the loader was trained to do it as fast as possible.  Also, german tanks (and all german AT guns) were semi-automatic, meaning that the shells automatically ejected from the gun, and the gun cocked and opened/closed its breechblock by itself.  The panther even had an enclosed bin that the shell would eject into, in order to negate fire hazards.  So technically, if you wanna get specific on reload times, the german tanks (and all german at guns) should have FASTER reload times.

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #13 on: 14-01-2011, 00:01:26 »
hmmm I think I smell german bias!

Ain't that right theta  ;D
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: Balance between light, medium and heavy armor
« Reply #14 on: 14-01-2011, 00:01:31 »
hmmm I think I smell german bias!

Ain't that right theta  ;D
Thats not bias, thats accuracy

And your not being funny.

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But Vonmudra. Tanks with small caliber guns did have higher ROF then this.especialy Towed at guns.
« Last Edit: 14-01-2011, 00:01:25 by THeTA0123 »
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