Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Off-Topic => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Captain Pyjama Shark on 12-05-2010, 01:05:53
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Ok, so for my American history class, I need to write a paper on anything in American history that interests me at all. My first plan was writing about the affects of the Gallipoli Campaign on Australian nationalism, but that was before I was told it had to be American history. So, now I am thinking of writing a paper on the AEF, its role in the Great War, and to see what sort of impact it had actually played on the outcome of the war.
I can't find much information on it, however. So does anyone know much about this (Mudra?), or have any good resources, websites, books, etc.?
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Try to ask Meadow.
Or make a thread here or PM someone (like Leo):
http://www.verdun-online.com/forum/
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Ask Mudra and he will do it for you xD
Well, you have a library in your town? Or maybe a University, those librarys are superb
It’s a good time to learn how to find books and use them ;D
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Ask Mudra and he will do it for you xD
Well, you have a library in your town? Or maybe a University, those librarys are superb
It’s a good time to learn how to find books and use them ;D
You're an idiot.
Tedacious, I thought that Verdun game was dead, anyway?
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Hey ho, didn want to piss you off :o ???
Actually I mend that totally serious
I had to learn it for some works at university, but its great and I get fast good results
At my library they have computers (I’m sure the one next to your place will have them too)
Normally they offer you a “search mask”, works a bit like google and there you go ,
Well and than again, a library of a University offers often more scientific information
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I said I couldn't find any information. I did check at a library.
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Just sent you a PM noting two areas to look, as well as a very concise outline of some important talking points. :)
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Well, then check some books generally about the war, in your case about the Air battles, there should be something about the AEF,
Its not like that if the AEF isn’t mentioned in the title there is nothing about the AEF in the book at all
Use more different search words, type in the name of some of the Aces of the AEF, maybe you find a personal story, etc. you know the drill, there should be something
And if you library does not offer anything at all, well then your library sucks if you want to get a better knowledge about that topic. Maybe then you should check out the library of a bigger city, normally I would not do that in the case of a paper for school but in your case you also seem the be personal interested into the topic so the effort would pay out for you
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Holy crap I fucking now how to use a library!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a supplement!!!!!!
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Did you get my pm?
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Yes.
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Americas big contribution to WW1 was its factories. They didnt provide the huge boost in manpower like in WW2. Most of the fighting was done by the European powers and Major Commonwealth Countries Like Canada, Australia, India and S Africa.
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Eehhh, wrong. Like I said to CPS in my PM, over 2,000,000 american troops served in the frontlines in WW1, with another 1,000,000 in training to serve. By Sept 1918, the americans were holding down more of the front then the British, as well as being the main cause of victory, with the Meuse Argonne offensive that cut the german rear lateral rail lines, forcing their retreat out of northern france.
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Not saying they didnt fight, just not like ww2. The Germans had been Ground down alot by the time the Americans arrived. Also the Canadians had just a big as an impact as the US in breaking the German lines, look up Hundred Days Offensive.
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Wikipedia is what I'd use. Just cite the same sources they have and don't mention using the evilness of wikipedia.
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Wiki is iffy on WW1.
@ Tiemann: The hundred days offensive refers to multiple allied assaults. The first ones simply closed the Germans back to their starting positions, following the Germans as they retreated back. The first offensive against the actual line was the Meuse Argonne. its success at St Mihel, and the capture of those rail lines by the AEF, was what led to the german withdrawal along the entire line, as their soldiers were unable to be supplied with food, replacements, and ammunition. The german plan had been to retreat to the german border, shortening their line, being able to once again bring in fresh supplies and troops, as well as shorten their line against what would then be an exhausted allied army, however the revolution in Germany, along with the collapse of her allies, called it quits for them.
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Here's something that I used to write an AEF paper for my American-history course(it's the stars and stripes published while it was over in France). If somebody already posted it, I scanned the thread so oops.:
http://memory.loc.gov/phpdata/issuedisplay.php?collection=sgpsas&aggregate=sgpsas
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Try to ask Meadow.
Or make a thread here or PM someone (like Leo):
http://www.verdun-online.com/forum/
Hah, Meadow? As if he actually hangs around this forum? I can't even remember the last time I saw him post ...
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Ask Mudra and he will do it for you xD
Well, you have a library in your town? Or maybe a University, those librarys are superb
It’s a good time to learn how to find books and use them ;D
my library has two books on WWI, both fiction.
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I would start with a good reference book (it can be online) in your school library. There should be at least a basic overview of the AEF somewhere there. From there, you can develop search strategies and your thesis statement.
How long of a paper does this have to be? Is the prof picky on types of sources (books, journal articles, web, etc.)?
http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_all&q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22
Those are some books with AEF as a keyword. Hopefully, some of these will be available where you are.
Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000000000001
Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22
I'm a reference librarian at a university library, so if you need any more general help let me know.
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In short: it's not what the American troops DID that won the war, it's that they were arriving. That's what made Operation Michael get rushed into action a year before it was really ready (troop redeployments from the Eastern Front et cetera) and run out of steam. What the AEF did from September 1918 onwards is admirable and tactically important, but realistically speaking the Germans lost the war when they launched Michael in March 1918.
Then again, I'm one of those crazies that says they lost the war in September 1914 when they were forced into a full engagement on the Marne...
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Nah, the Marne was basically a myth dreamt up by French propaganda to explain the german withdrawal. The place they lost during the time period of the fabled Marne was actually all the way over in Verdun, where they failed to pinch off the salient. When they couldn't secure the pivot point of their offensive, they had no choice but to retreat. IMO though, that still doesn't mean a loss of the war. The moment the USA declared war, that was when they lost it. Michael, had the USA never declared war, would have meant a german victory. No belleau wood, no 2,000,000 American troops.
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The war in Europe was basically a stalemate before the US entry into the war - otherwise, the front would have advanced somewhere after 1914 instead of the basically same trenches with an occasional counterattack or two which stalled sooner or later. The combatants' losses had been so high that eg. 20 years later during the next round, French army was still suffering manpower shortages. Now, German East Front troops gained from the peace with Soviet Russia MIGHT have been the decisive factor, if the US had stayed out of the war.
However, the Germans knew that even with Ostfront reinforcements, their troops would not be nearly enough against the US, so victory - or at least a good negotiation position - would have to be reached before US forces appeared in full strength. Hence the premature offensive. And even this assumption relied on the idea that the US would not attempt an invasion from Britain. But after the German spring offensive failed to provide a quick victory it was all but over, due to the massive amount of US soldiers arriving to the front daily. If the enemy gains several fresh soldiers for every dead soldier of yours, then it's time to call it quits.
Of course, there's always the l33t gamer typing in the text chat:
LCpl_Schickelgruber> no wai we give up! we has soooo many tickets left! lame n00b quitters!And determined NOT to give up in the next map if he has anything to say, even if the tickets were 500-100 and the bleed on for his team.
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I would start with a good reference book (it can be online) in your school library. There should be at least a basic overview of the AEF somewhere there. From there, you can develop search strategies and your thesis statement.
How long of a paper does this have to be? Is the prof picky on types of sources (books, journal articles, web, etc.)?
http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_all&q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22
Those are some books with AEF as a keyword. Hopefully, some of these will be available where you are.
Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000000000001
Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22
I'm a reference librarian at a university library, so if you need any more general help let me know.
Gah! I know how to use a library! Just asking here for any facts, opinions, anyone had to mention that would be different from the books I've been reading.
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I would start with a good reference book (it can be online) in your school library. There should be at least a basic overview of the AEF somewhere there. From there, you can develop search strategies and your thesis statement.
How long of a paper does this have to be? Is the prof picky on types of sources (books, journal articles, web, etc.)?
http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=worldcat_org_all&q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22
Those are some books with AEF as a keyword. Hopefully, some of these will be available where you are.
Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000000000001
Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=%22american+expeditionary+force%22
I'm a reference librarian at a university library, so if you need any more general help let me know.
Gah! I know how to use a library! Just asking here for any facts, opinions, anyone had to mention that would be different from the books I've been reading.
Sorry, I just thought another angle might be useful. Good luck.
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Nah, the Marne was basically a myth dreamt up by French propaganda to explain the german withdrawal. The place they lost during the time period of the fabled Marne was actually all the way over in Verdun, where they failed to pinch off the salient. When they couldn't secure the pivot point of their offensive, they had no choice but to retreat. IMO though, that still doesn't mean a loss of the war. The moment the USA declared war, that was when they lost it. Michael, had the USA never declared war, would have meant a german victory. No belleau wood, no 2,000,000 American troops.
Nah, that's not correct. I'm not talking about them losing on the Marne. I'm talking about them having to fight on the Marne. That's what lost them the war - the moment the Schlieffen plan failed, they were going to lose. Germany wasn't cut out for a two-front war and yes, Michael without the Americans would have gone differently, but as it happened the Americans were a part of it. Therefore to use only one point of divergence, the Germans having to fight on the Marne was what lost them the war - a decisive head-on confrontation with large-scale armies is what inevitably forced them into the stalemate that they would eventually lose.
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Full support to Meadow's statement.
Considering the fact that the US were already committed, any German offensive began as late as 1918 was essentially doomed to begin with in the long run. Knocking both UK and France out of the war was not very likely, as both knew that the US was coming to their aid; whatever territory was lost could be retaken. Only a total collapse of front due to desertions and surrenders would have accomplished this. Lacking that, an all-out breakthrough and envelopment of entire armies was not really technically feasible with the technology of the time (no panzer formations accompanied by mechanized infantry) so at most, the Germans would have succeeded driving the front a couple of hundred kilometers further back than they historically did. Capturing all of France and her ports (thus preventing US entry) simply would not have been possible in the timeframe they had - little over a month at most (by May, there were already 300+ thousand US soldiers in France, with ~300 thousands arriving monthly thereafter).
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Nah, the Marne was basically a myth dreamt up by French propaganda to explain the german withdrawal. The place they lost during the time period of the fabled Marne was actually all the way over in Verdun, where they failed to pinch off the salient. When they couldn't secure the pivot point of their offensive, they had no choice but to retreat. IMO though, that still doesn't mean a loss of the war. The moment the USA declared war, that was when they lost it. Michael, had the USA never declared war, would have meant a german victory. No belleau wood, no 2,000,000 American troops.
Nah, that's not correct. I'm not talking about them losing on the Marne. I'm talking about them having to fight on the Marne. That's what lost them the war - the moment the Schlieffen plan failed, they were going to lose. Germany wasn't cut out for a two-front war and yes, Michael without the Americans would have gone differently, but as it happened the Americans were a part of it. Therefore to use only one point of divergence, the Germans having to fight on the Marne was what lost them the war - a decisive head-on confrontation with large-scale armies is what inevitably forced them into the stalemate that they would eventually lose.
Problem is they never actually fought on the Marne. This is more a difference in terms. The "battle of the Marne" is actually 4 or 5 different battles that the French rolled into one massive battle for a propaganda coup. Reality is that the germans won in on the battles that occured near the marne, but lost at their attempts to pinch off Verdun, way on the other side of the front. The inability to pinch it off left an incredibly dangerous salient, making the rest of the advance completly untenable, causing their falling back to the highground in northern france.
And the problem is, yes, losing there did cause them to lose the war because of american involvement. but the thing is that if the americans hadn't gotten in, the germans would easily have forced a peace settlement with Michael. Not some resounding victory where they annex france or such like in WW2 (not that they ever wanted to do that in the first place), but they would have been able to force their original 1917 peace talks ideas, of reparations by both sides, new rules for going through Belgium, and suitable punishment of Serbia. As it happened, America DID enter the war. Saying that the failure of the Schlieffen plan lost them the war simply can't be taken as correct, as noted, they would have easily forced a favourable peace without american involvement. It was the USA that was the deciding factor.
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I dont know so much as you guys about the subject. But i have one documentary who say america only contributed to the victory morally (by the fact that the germans knew they were coming). But not by any significant degree in the battles, though it do mention some american victories.
Ospray Publishing " War on the Western Front " by dr. Gary Sheffield (which i think appears very reasonable and correct) say its still beeing debated and its very hard to see in what degree their involvement influenced the outcome of the war.
It have some funny descriptions of the american doughboy though. That they threw grenades like crazy, and many were quite good cause of baseball playing. It happened more than one time that grenades bounced back from trees or other obstacles and injured the thrower himself. But theyre supposed to have had given a major moral boost for the french and british troops. So that by itself could be more important than many realise.
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Itniw a gnarl popular myth that the US did not contribute much on the battlefield during world war 1...this is a myth that has been generally overturned in the same idea as polish cavalry charging German tanks. the myth lives on, despite it's falsehood.
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You think Clemanceau would really have negotiated a peace if Michael succeded, or would the war just have dragged out even longer while The US got ready to throw it's hat in the ring. I think the war was lost for Germany from day one.
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With a fall of Paris, both sides exhausted, France, Britain, and Germany unable to fight each other...yeah, I think there would have been a peace.