Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: THeTA0123 on 14-05-2011, 11:05:30
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Haters will probaly gonna hate, but im gonna give it a go
This is for the upcoming M4A3 sherman in the Bulge theathre. WIch actually should also be in Normandy.
The sherman tank had frontally 51mm of armor wich was sloped at an angle of 55 Degrees. In theory this should have protected the sherman from certain ranges from the 75mm KWK40 of the PZIV and stug, but this rarely happend because
-The early shermans M4A1 had a casted hull wich had less performance then the inquired steel thickness
-The early Shermans M4 wich had welded hulls did not had single frontal armour plate, but 3 welded together wich gave places for alot of weakspots. The area's around vision ports and such where weak spots
This is however, something that was fixed in the M4A2-3 and 4 versions. So this means the Shermans M4A3 hull SHOULD protect it from the KWK40 L48 at ranges from 450meters. A penetration was sometimes possible however at 600 meters.
So what i suggest, is to allow the sherman to withstand 2 shots frontally of the PZIV and Stug its main gun.
This is also something, wich affects the British Sherman V
Go look it up properly, and you will find out i am right.
People say it is unfair that the Panther dies from a single shot from the sides? well i find this unfair and maybe we can get to an agreement here ;)
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Yeah would make sense. If Kev comes online he might shed some light on this.
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wasnt it intended to improve tank-combat anyway with the new patch?
- that sherman can get that feature, but to not totally screw the tank combat something else has to happen. stugs and pIVs already struggle against the already available shermans. the turret ring thing is just annoying and the sherman with the 76mm gun is totally invincible frontally if you dont have a pzgr40.
- add in that the special ammo will get taken out for normal tanks (from what i have heard and i totally agree) and the PIV is totally useless. the normal ammo has to do better.
german tanks are already underperforming, give me a cromwell and i 1 shot every panther and now you want even better allied tanks?
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worst problem is the track instant kill, the cupola instant kill and the top armour instant kill, if those are not fixed any new tank warfare idea is pointless.
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dude, way ahead of you,
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html#M4A3(75)W
same armour values as m4a1 (76).
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Same armor value yes, but way diffrent process. In theory the Sherman could withstand the PZIV's 75mm at a range up to 400 meters. This was not in the first run with the M4A1 shermans both welded and casted for the above reason
But the Sherman M4A3 did not had those problems.
So will the M4A3 be just plain 1s1k? Like the rest of the allied tanks?
And butcher. Please play the game properly before you start to say things like "PZIV is completly useless against the sherman". Im sorry but your post is just plain rubbish. No offense intented.
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And butcher. Please play the game properly before you start to say things like "PZIV is completly useless against the sherman". Im sorry but your post is just plain rubbish. No offense intented.
yeah, who doesnt agree is talking rubbish.
i said the turret ring cant be penetrated with regular ammo. thats the case.
and then try to finish a 76mm sherman without a pzgr 40 frontally. i want to see you doing that. in fact you are dead when you dont kill it with the first shot. i even had side shots not killing the thing.
thats what i meant with "pIVs struggle vs shermans"
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And butcher. Please play the game properly before you start to say things like "PZIV is completly useless against the sherman". Im sorry but your post is just plain rubbish. No offense intented.
yeah, who doesnt agree is talking rubbish.
i said the turret ring cant be penetrated with regular ammo. thats the case.
and then try to finish a 76mm sherman without a pzgr 40 frontally. i want to see you doing that. in fact you are dead when you dont kill it with the first shot. i even had side shots not killing the thing.
thats what i meant with "pIVs struggle vs shermans"
Armor of the PZIV turret is 50mm. Its normal it is penetrated ;)
I personally dint knew this aswel in the past
So zhat is why your post is rubbish! Incomplete with bad information!
So then the Sherman 76mm is correct. Only that it is an M4A1 model. ;D
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I personally dint knew this aswel in the past
So zhat is why your post is rubbish! Incomplete with bad information!
So then the Sherman 76mm is correct. Only that it is an M4A1 model. ;D
no, we are talking about other things. i meant ingame the SHERMAN turret ring cant be penetrated with regular ammo of a P IV.
i wasnt talking about the P IV turret ring which was only 50 mm of course and penetrateable. i have no problems with that.
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aah you said SHERMAN ring
i thought you ment PZIV turret
But anyway, it doesnt matter. This is about the Sherman M4A3 ;)
(but i do not disagree on your opinion)
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didnt the M4A3 come about a little after normandy? I know the A3's started replacing other shermans. But wernt the M4 and the A1 still heavily used in Normandy?
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didnt the M4A3 come about a little after normandy? I know the A3's started replacing other shermans. But wernt the M4 and the A1 still heavily used in Normandy?
IIRC about 60% where A1's
Edit=Now i read here that the A3 was infact the most numorous in normandy... hmm
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German tanks are already underperforming, if you ask me ;)
but if that tanks was in there then it should be added
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--if you ask me ;)
Luckily, we don't.
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didnt the M4A3 come about a little after normandy? I know the A3's started replacing other shermans. But wernt the M4 and the A1 still heavily used in Normandy?
All the technical information on the sherman you'll ever need here
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html
M4A3 (75) W started production in Feb. 44, I'm not going to look up when they hit the frontlines, but it was definitely present in Bulge. M4A3 early models were in Normandy, though we do not represent this ingame as we'd rather focus on upcoming stuff, not old stuff.
There's a lot of misinformation on Shermans, armour thickness, and gun penetration. Some clarifications:
M4A1: Cast Hull, gasoline
M4A2: Welded Hull, diesel
M4A3: Welded hull, gasoline
M4A4: Welded elongated hull, multibank gasoline
In addition:
you've got several variations of each of the above, early, mid, late, and so on.
A mid M4A3 75mm has 51mm armour, while a late M4A3 75mm has 64mm armour at front, sloped at 47 degrees.
Our M4A3 is the late variant and thus will have 80mm of frontal armour ingame. As we upscale the armour values accounting for the slope of the armour. Could even argue it should be 90mm.
Also, more clarification on gun penetration:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/guns/75-mm.asp
Notice how those values are 70mm at 30 degrees. The panther has 80mm frontal, however the glacis plate is upscaled to 120mm ingame to account for the slope, which is 55 degrees from vertical. However if the sherman shot downwards at a panther from 55 degrees higher, the impact would be at 0 degrees, and at pointblank range a sherman could penetrate it.
Naturally, we cannot account for everything. Thus the sherman 75mm will in no circumstance be able to penetrate the Panther's frontal ingame.
However, the Sherman M4A3 in Bulge will be able to survive one, but not two, frontal shots from the Panzer IV.
You may discuss this here, bad, good, axis bias, allied bias, however it is unlikely to affect our decision on it.
Also I got a lot of work to do, so may not have time to type up long replies like this one.
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my post has a little axis bias ;D
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However, the Sherman M4A3 in Bulge will be able to survive one, but not two, frontal shots from the Panzer IV.
actually this is what i suggested
Thank you very much
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Kev's post is the end all for this thread I think :P
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However, the Sherman M4A3 in Bulge will be able to survive one, but not two, frontal shots from the Panzer IV.
actually this is what i suggested
Thank you very much
No need to thank me. If you check the changelog when its out, you'll see I actually implemented this the day before you posted the suggestion.
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Well i dont watch it as it spoils stuff ;)
But yes. This is the end of the thread. I shall close it. It served its purpose. I am very happy with this. a +1
.....what the hell, i cant..
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i just wonder how come only the A's are touched on mostly and the original M4 ( with no A) is never really touched on im just wondering
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well this sounds like/ is flaming but its really bugging me,
will the sherman with the 76mm gun at least get fixed? as far as i can see it is a m4a1/sherman II and shouldnt stand hits from the 75mm L48.
or will we be seeing a shitload of shermans that need 2 hits and perform like panthers?
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they stated months ago that was fixed
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I just want all tanks' coding follow the same standards, say you can't destroy a ShermanII with 75mm/L48 by hitting its 76mm mantlet, and then you blow up a PzIVH by the same gun although the place you hit has 80mm of armor.
Btw, the KT armor is bugged, the glacis plate is coded as about verticle 150mm, while it should be 150mm at 40 degrees, it wasn't a problem so far, but with the arrival of M36, I think this should be fixed.
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Yes , gun mantlet is a 80 mm thick ..... but front of the turret is only a 50 mm 8)
Well , lets code upper front plate of the Tiger II hull to at last 250 mm vertical armor and lower plate to 200 mm . Problem solved ;D and that gonna be more realistic ;)
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Yes , gun mantlet is a 80 mm thick ..... but front of the turret is only a 50 mm 8)
Well , lets code upper front plate of the Tiger II hull to at last 250 mm vertical armor and lower plate to 200 mm . Problem solved ;D and that gonna be more realistic ;)
231.4mm was the effective armour frontally of the upper glacis plate.
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Nah ... that only minor details , 10 mm here ... 20 there .... who cares ;D
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i allways find it so pathetic how you guy always look at at statistics and say "this gun penetrate this and that, this tank have that and this armour so that gun would be avaible to do this and that" you guys do understand that one hull is diff from another? and that this is only what In Theory things would happen? i mean, if i shot a 20mm long enough at a sherman it will blow up after not so long, as the metal will crack because of the stress. or a 37bofors on a IV.
this is allso a Known tactic for an SPG, crack the metal with HE rounds if you cant "penetrate" or other similiar vehilces, guns whatever
/troll mode on
make all tanks suffer from smaller cannons!!!!!!11!!1
/troll mode off
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I find it pathethic the way you sometimes reply towards other people
*trollmode on
I agree about the autocannons tbh :v
/trollmode off
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haha, that reminds me of an incident on gazala where a friend and me were both using a carro armato and flanking a grant. both shooting at its back ... i swear it must have been 20 shells the thing took ... and it was intact - in fact it didnt take damage.
as for the king tiger i yet have to see someone using the thing effectively ... either you get 1 shot by a 6 pounder or firefly ::) ... the thing is so horribly big and can be seen over half the map and 2 hard counters spawn as soon as it reaches the field.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8631/screen039h.jpg) noting is easier than killing that thing.
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Actually, i was shocked when i was driving Cromwell and killed Tiger I with two shots at side. I think it should not be possible.
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60mm armour, yah it should.
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I read on the internetz that Witmann's Tiger got two hits to side armor by Cromwell comanded by captain Dyas. Tiger with no damage destroyed that Cromwell and moved on.
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Only on sides behind the wheels ... part above is a 80 mm thick
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Tiger1-2002-Picz/Armor_Scheme_Tiger1.png
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I read on the internetz that Witmann's Tiger got two hits to side armor by Cromwell comanded by captain Dyas. Tiger with no damage destroyed that Cromwell and moved on.
Depends on angle. If it was on the sides behind wheels, and was flat on, it would have penetrated. Unfortunately, FH2 can't represent the difference in firing at a flat angle, and firing at a 70 degree angle, at the same spot in the armour.
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Well I suppose the tiger's wheel is not made by butter, so it's only the small gap between upper side armor and wheel have the 63mm weak spot. Yet now half of the side armor is coded 63mm...
But back in 2.2 cromwell still needs 3 side shot to kill a tiger and 6 pdr doesn't one shot KT, somehow the Dak tiger/tiger/KT's "HP" value got lower down in later version, made some really ridiculous kill possible, like the 2 mentioned above, or cromwell one shot tiger/crusader one shot Dak tiger by hitting the top armor.
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BTW .... how in the hell Cromwell 75 mm Mk V L/36.5 is more powerful in game to compare to Sherman 75 mm M3 L/38.5 , when they used this same ammunition ???
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BTW .... how in the hell Cromwell 75 mm Mk V L/36.5 is more powerful in game to compare to Sherman 75 mm M3 L/38.5 , when they used this same ammunition ???
Because when I point this out to Kev4000, he ignores me.
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The flatter trajectory of the Cromwell was actually correct in 2.2 and 2.25. APCBC had slightly(barely) better penetration, but had a flatter trajectory
For me, if the PZIV and stug can be made frontally penetratable, i would see no problem in removing this on tiger and the weakspots of the kingtiger
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Flatter ? Where ? I need aim higher from Cromwell than in Sherman ...
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Flatter ? Where ? I need aim higher from Cromwell than in Sherman ...
IIRC the APCBC ammo had higher muzzle velocity. Therefor less bullet drop
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FH2 can't represent the difference in firing at a flat angle, and firing at a 70 degree angle.
Thanks for clarifying. I shot it in wheels area, but from serious angle. That made me curious.
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BTW .... how in the hell Cromwell 75 mm Mk V L/36.5 is more powerful in game to compare to Sherman 75 mm M3 L/38.5 , when they used this same ammunition ???
Because when I point this out to Kev4000, he ignores me.
Because if we lower the Cromwell penetration, better up the Sherman penetration. Its value is taken from a 70mm@30 degrees, which tanks armour is already compensated for. Say hello to re-balancing vehicle loadout on all Normandy maps!
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Well, I'm sorry if I was living under the impression that all the projectiles dealt with 500m @ 30 degrees penetration while tank armour was vertical equivalent (mostly). Doesn't change the fact that the cromwell is using 75mmL40 ABCBC while it should have 75mmL37.5 APCBC.
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But I saw in PoE mod, that BF2 has this ability to simulate hits from below or over 45 degree firing angle. Or this thing is just too bugged to be implemented FH2?
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But why we don't give a Sherman identical firepower for AP like for Cromwell ... and give to Cromwell some energy for HE shells from Sherman ? Its so hard to make or what ?
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But I saw in PoE mod, that BF2 has this ability to simulate hits from below or over 45 degree firing angle. Or this thing is just too bugged to be implemented FH2?
I can't ever remember them having this.
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So what i suggest, is to allow the sherman to withstand 2 shots frontally of the PZIV and Stug its main gun.
Yeah, make the game more Allied bias as it is now... Good idea...
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But I saw in PoE mod, that BF2 has this ability to simulate hits from below or over 45 degree firing angle. Or this thing is just too bugged to be implemented FH2?
I can't ever remember them having this.
http://www.pointofexistence.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8869&hl=
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So what i suggest, is to allow the sherman to withstand 2 shots frontally of the PZIV and Stug its main gun.
Yeah, make the game more Allied bias as it is now... Good idea...
Dude, i have been talking even with some internal testers, and even they said that normandy wise, German tanks are actually to strong
(But we all agreed NA wise this is for the allies)
I was rather amazed by this, yes. From one person, i especialy dint expected to hear it
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I like the point of exist style of how they deal with the tracks.
It sucks really really hard that you can kill everykind of tank so easily when shooting just the tracks.
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Cant they just add a "Unpenetratable " zone towards the front tracks?
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wow first time we have exactly the same opinion tao !!
WORD
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They should do this for every tank ofcourse. Not that it matters much for a sherman ;D
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But I saw in PoE mod, that BF2 has this ability to simulate hits from below or over 45 degree firing angle. Or this thing is just too bugged to be implemented FH2?
I can't ever remember them having this.
http://www.pointofexistence.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8869&hl=
Never noticed this, looks cool though and would like to see it in-game.
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Cant they just add a "Unpenetratable " zone towards the front tracks?
The front facing underside of the tracks (i.e. the bit you can see from the front of the tank) has the same armour material as the front hull. I'd imagine that from the sides, the tracks have the same armour as the armour behind them.
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ah, okay that explains