Poll

AFTER READING THE FIRST POST... which option do you prefer?

Leave it as is (Germans have unlimited G43s in Rifleman-Slot on some American maps)
Historical option: G43s are pickup only or in limited in secondary kits like on PeB or PHL
The Compromise option: G43s are moved to the scout kit on maps where they are presently unlimited in the rifleman kit

Author Topic: The over-abundance of G43s  (Read 23216 times)

Offline Ts4EVER

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The over-abundance of G43s
« on: 04-07-2010, 16:07:25 »
Hi
Here is my problem: At the moment we have way to many G43s in the mod from a historical perspective. If you don't care about the history aspect of the game, feel free to choose option nr 1 without reading the rest of this post. I know that not everybody shares my sentiments in that regards and I respect people for it.

As of 2.26, the G43 can be found as a limited spawnable kit in the rifleman slot on both American "combined arms maps", Operation Lüttich and Cobra. It is also found as a limited kit on several infantry maps that don't have AT kits and as pick up kits on some Commonwealth maps. My issue is with the G43s in rifleman kits.
In my opinion, the rifleman kit is the "standard" for every army. It is the lowly grunt, the simple soldier, who only gets the standard equipment to do the basic killing in infantry combat. The kit also provides rifle grenades as a basic gameplay function.
Thing is: The G43 was NOT a standard weapon by any means. Just for a little exercise: Try to find photos of Germans using it in Normandy. I know a few, but they are far and few between. If you look at the equipment tables for German infantry companies, they were supposed to have 19 G43, 10 of which would have been scoped. This means the ideal and fully supplied German infantry squad would roughly clock in at an impressive 2 G43s per 9 man squad, one of which would be scoped.
Now two things about that:
- This makes it far from a standard weapon, as most of the squad members still carried the K98k
- I'm pretty sure these numbers were rarely achieved, and if they were you would probably have to look at the eastern front or maybe the Ardennes
If a German unit was lucky enough to have some G43s, they were probably found on a 1 er squad basis, mostly carried by a deputy squad leader or possibly a known crack shot who would put it to good use.

Now on to the gameplay side: Why do we have so many? Quite frankly, it is an attempt at mirror balancing. The Americans have semi autos, so the Germans also need them, huh? Well, on the other hand, with that logic you could also place tons of Pershings on tank maps to "counter" German heavies. The Germans have other strenghts and advantages, like their awesome MGs. Do we really need to bent history to such a degree?

If you think about it, has the Garand that big of an advantage? Both the K98k and the Garand kill in one shot. Both are almost perfectly accurate. Sure if you round a corner and bump into each other, the one with the Garand will probably win. I admit this is somewhat of an issue on Lüttich with its short view distance, but on Cobra? I mean that thing has about 400m fog distance, and very long engagement ranges. And even if the Americans have a slight advantage in the city part of the map: Can't the mapper just place one or two G43 pickup kits there? Problem solved.

On top of that, theG43 as standard kit means the Germans have no access to riflenades on these maps. Especially on Lüttich I could see them being useful.

So anyway, three options for you to choose from:

- Leave it as it is now
- Get rid of unlimited spawnable G43s
- Move unlimited spawnable G43s to scout kits on the maps in question

Note that this poll is not some kind of "community participation program". In the end it is up to the mapper what weapons he uses on his work. I just want to get some feedback and commets on this, because I personally feel this is worth changing to make FH2 more authentic.

Offline Kubador

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #1 on: 04-07-2010, 17:07:29 »
Fourth option: Limit every spawnable kit that has g43.

I see that this topic really bugs you.

Offline Seth_Soldier

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #2 on: 04-07-2010, 17:07:22 »
yes i agree but you need to see that with the mapper directly imo because i've already complained without result !

My idea was g43 would be a very limited class so there only 1 or 2 on the map to play the role of fire support in the team. Then around bulge/market, the g43 would be more common but still limited (however it would still depend which units are played on a maps, on some maps there shouldn't be any g43). And then at the very end of the war a free for all g43 class.

In the same way, the stg44 was supposed to be a super rare pickup in normandy, a very limited class in bulge, and a ffa at the end of the war.

But then it's the mapper who decide.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #3 on: 04-07-2010, 17:07:14 »
Fourth option: Limit every spawnable kit that has g43.


Yes, but I don't think the rifleman kit should ever be limited. In fact, it technically is limited with the G43 kits right now, but set to a rate of 0.4, meaning that after substracting players playing tanks, artillery, sl, assault etc you basically have an unlimited kit for the rest.

Offline Kubador

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #4 on: 04-07-2010, 17:07:17 »
I voted for historical option becasue I don't want to have g43's unlimited and I don't want them in recon kit since then it will become more of an assault instead of long ranged class.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #5 on: 04-07-2010, 17:07:11 »
Some pics of semi auto rifles in normandy:

FJGs getting food (?) from a civilian, one carries a G41(W) rifle (which btw was still in production at the time)



This very badass looking dude with a G43:



might be in France, not sure though.

This is from September 1944, Market Garden:



This guy surely hit the pick up kit Jackpot:



Pic is from late 1944, Hürtgen Forest.


This is from the Easter front:



The soldier is a member of the elite Großdeutschland Division. This is one of the units that conceivably could have received the whole allotment of rifles.


« Last Edit: 04-07-2010, 18:07:14 by Ts4EVER »

Offline McCloskey

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #6 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:08 »
I voted for the historical accuracy. It's just like you said: cheap mirror balancing. Axis have better planes (those are especially funny), armor, MGs and then they need to have semi-auto rifles where the enemy also has them which is also against the history this mod is following? That's not right. (it even has 2 rounds more than M1, lulz--not that 2 rounds matter but.. you know)

Offline Vernah

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #7 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:36 »
I hadn't realized the G43 was unlimited, I usually end up with the 'ZOMG NO MORE G43S FOR YOU LOLZ" message. If there is too many G43's on a map, then just limit the number a little more, problem solved.

However, I think your underlying grudge is that it's in the second box down from the top, which represents the core infantry class and in your opinion should only have the K98 slot. If that's the case then there are 3 options:

1) Move the g43 kit to another box..
2) Just LOL at this problem
3) Make it have a randomizer with a limit, so that you may randomly spawn with a G43 upon trying to use the main infantry class, otherwise you get the k98.

As for pick ups, pick ups are just too difficult to get to half the time imo, you have to run to the kit and hope you don't get nuked, and then try and well get a chance to use it. I'd rather have a very limited spawnable than a pickup and imo, the number of G43s on this map isn't ludicrous or overwhelming in any means. However if people feel that there are indeed too many, than just do the simple answer of lowering the amount the axis army can have.

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #8 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:19 »
I dont know what to vote.

Being all for historical accuracy is always my kinda deal but in this case I have to think to myself when I am playing in maps which have americans facing the germans.

I am a lousy shot as an infantryman and when I have to fight with K98k against garands and carbines... I get quite frustrated. Having an option to choose to G43 instead gives me either equal fighting grounds or at least attempts to. But the fact is that I am even worse shooter with the G43 than I am with K98k, so the benefit I'd get from G43's being better at closer distances is very minimal. I hit good with K98k on longer ranges, far better than I do with G43's, but I suck terribly when it comes to fighting yankee armed with their respective rifles and I've got myself a slow bolt-action. So basically when I can get to closer distance I can just hipfire and spam rounds at general direction with G43 and I have better chances hitting something. But longer distances... I just cant work the ironsights.

So this leaves me into a stalemate. On other hand I'd love to have an ability to fight the bloody rapidfire spam-rifles, but on longer distances they dont make a difference since I can hit better with bolt-action. On top of that, I am one of those nazis who likes their FH2 historically correct as possible.

Also, switching scout kit over isnt the perfect option for my personal preference either. Since I often use the scout kit as I prefer the bolt-action on longer distances, plus I got the binoculars which are almost my most favorite piece of equipment in the whole game. So having G43's which' ironsights are rocket surgery to me doesnt really fit in my personal playstyle with Scout kit.

Very difficult question. I rarely pick the G43's up when I see them scattered around. Basically only when I am out of ammo or I am 100% certain I will be fighting in close quarters. And I rarely pick the spawnmenu G43's either for because I find engineer, support, scout and anti-tank more appealing to my playstyle.


@ Vernah, randomizing is not possible with BF2, which sucks Donkey Kong.

Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #9 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:43 »
I hadn't realized the G43 was unlimited, I usually end up with the 'ZOMG NO MORE G43S FOR YOU LOLZ" message.

Really?? On Lüttich or Cobra? Because I can safely say I have never been denied the use of it on these maps ever (on a close to full server) On PeB or PHL it is often taken however.

edit: @ flippy, I think the absolute best possible solution would be having it as an alternative for the assault kit using the unlockable system, but that is a whole other discussion obviously.
« Last Edit: 04-07-2010, 18:07:57 by Ts4EVER »

Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #10 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:10 »
At first I disagreed, but in the end you convinced me.

Historical option all the way!

Offline djinn

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #11 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:11 »
Yer, no matter what bogus values someone shows me, I think the g43 is way overused. To many ww2 games make semi-automatic standard issue when they were far rarer than that. I think it wil be a shame if FH, which has always given me for the feel for the real, decides to follow the crowd here.

An aside, I actually see more k98 kills in both SP and Conquest, than I see m1 kills, so given the greatly more accurate g43 doesn't 'balance' shit.

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #12 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:22 »
edit: @ flippy, I think the absolute best possible solution would be having it as an alternative for the assault kit using the unlockable system, but that is a whole other discussion obviously.

Yeah, lets keep that discussion to minimum tho. It has its own time and place, rather than in here.

Offline Paavopesusieni

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #13 on: 04-07-2010, 18:07:32 »
I hate mirror balancing and love historical accuracy so either give G43 to scout or make it limited. Also take HVAP off from 76mm Sherman and make it so that Tiger can one shot to Churchill at least to the sides. I would also like to see FW190 off from Cobra and only one on Totalize to emphasize the Allied air superiority.
« Last Edit: 04-07-2010, 19:07:44 by Paavopesusieni »

Offline Sgt.Radman

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Re: The over-abundance of G43s
« Reply #14 on: 04-07-2010, 19:07:48 »
I dont know what to vote.

Being all for historical accuracy is always my kinda deal but in this case I have to think to myself when I am playing in maps which have americans facing the germans.

I am a lousy shot as an infantryman and when I have to fight with K98k against garands and carbines... I get quite frustrated. Having an option to choose to G43 instead gives me either equal fighting grounds or at least attempts to. But the fact is that I am even worse shooter with the G43 than I am with K98k, so the benefit I'd get from G43's being better at closer distances is very minimal. I hit good with K98k on longer ranges, far better than I do with G43's, but I suck terribly when it comes to fighting yankee armed with their respective rifles and I've got myself a slow bolt-action. So basically when I can get to closer distance I can just hipfire and spam rounds at general direction with G43 and I have better chances hitting something. But longer distances... I just cant work the ironsights.

So this leaves me into a stalemate. On other hand I'd love to have an ability to fight the bloody rapidfire spam-rifles, but on longer distances they dont make a difference since I can hit better with bolt-action. On top of that, I am one of those nazis who likes their FH2 historically correct as possible.

Also, switching scout kit over isnt the perfect option for my personal preference either. Since I often use the scout kit as I prefer the bolt-action on longer distances, plus I got the binoculars which are almost my most favorite piece of equipment in the whole game. So having G43's which' ironsights are rocket surgery to me doesnt really fit in my personal playstyle with Scout kit.

Very difficult question. I rarely pick the G43's up when I see them scattered around. Basically only when I am out of ammo or I am 100% certain I will be fighting in close quarters. And I rarely pick the spawnmenu G43's either for because I find engineer, support, scout and anti-tank more appealing to my playstyle.


@ Vernah, randomizing is not possible with BF2, which sucks Donkey Kong.

Agree on most of the things. Only difference is that I'm a tad better with semi auto, but again not that of a pawnzor effect when it's in my hands. So...I would also choose a bolt-scout with binos then the G43. And in close quarters I hit 50-50% with it. If u want a semi auto, take the Garand from a downed enemy or M1 Car.
Also i would suggest taking assault SMG if u plan CQB. Other than that take the distance and rely on your accuracy on mid-range.

I hate mirror balancing and love historical accuracy so either give G43 to scout or make it limited. Also take HVAP off from 76mm Sherman and make it so that Tiger can one shot to Churchill at least to the sides. I would also like to see FW190 off from Cobra and only one on Totalize to emphasize the Allied air superiority.

Sherman HVAP, Tiger/Churchill and planes is a separate thread. But for the record, don't remove the 2nd FW or remove them at all. That would mean more AA equipment to deploy.