Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Singleplayer and Coop => Topic started by: djinn on 06-04-2010, 14:04:25
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So we need to try to work together as a community, taking up the roles there are to get SP off the ground... Hopefully so that we have something that works in 2.26. The projects and roles there are are thus:
1/ Navmesh
Pathmapping and Navmeshing of new maps like Op. Cobra, mareth and Lebesey, if nothing at all... New maps for bots means more fans for both FH2SP and FH2 as a whole - New simulations for testing your skills with bots, and good news alll around.
Required skill: Navmeshing
2/ AI
Spot currently closed - Position held by Drawde
3/ AI-Support
This is tweking done to improve the Ai code to see how we can get bots work around issues they may currently have such as use of charges, firing rockets too far etc. Rather than coming up with a new patch, please DL Drawde's patch, tweak it where you can, log changes and let Drawde know to see how we can include it and present it to the devs for incorporation into 2.26
Required Skill: AI, logic and conversance with BF2 AI files
4/ Navmesh-Support
While we work on adding new maps for bots, a minor role will be to iron out creases in already supported maps. Known issues exist that make bots get stuck here and there, these could be addressed. Also, we can try to navmesh more buildings that do not have them to make for a more robust gameplay in SP
We would like to get na
Required skill: Navmeshing
5/ Beta-testing
DL the Patches, try to see what makes things break, try to understand the logic of bots and lets see if we can improve it even further though your feedback
Required skill: Basic understanding of AI logic, the willingness to play and give feedback on anything worth noting.
6/ AI Poineers
While we have an unofficial AI person and are looking for Independent AI-Support, we would also like those who can to take up the project of making in-roads in bot-logic. Be inspired by the works of Drawde, Winterhilf, Bizness and Legion and join the unofficial ranks to add to what bots can do
We would for instance like to see bots fire field howtizers over long range, being able to see over hedgrow, hills and buffs. Furthermore, we will like bots to be able to use HE, mg and AP for tanks and AT guns, to deploy landmines and AP mines as well as clear enemy mines, the Stuka to use its divehorn and fly higher, Infantry to move more coordinated and obey the commo-rose options among other new AI improvements - Please join our motley crew and help the FH2SP community to flourish
Required skill: Advanced logic and AI-modding skills
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You have my bow~
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g262/jump_2006/Legolas2.jpg)
I'll do all thats in my abilities to help so I'll beta test if thats ok?
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We need all the BTs we can get... those are our bread and butter.
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Sweet, I should have a working PC within the next few weeks so I'm in! :D
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All you need to do is follow the forum and discussions - We currently have issues we need diagnosing - Call it 'our Op. Cobra':
1/ Goodwood CTDs after 5 - 20 minutes of play. Suspect one of the stationary guns during destruction, issue also found in Beta Op. Totalize map
2/ Luttich started to CTD since Drawde's 1.1 patch about 5 - 10 minutes after gamestart.. No solid leads on this one.
For all Potential BTs and modders:
You will need,
FH2.2 and Fh2.21 patch
Dradew's 1.1 patch for fixes in Stuka bombing, AT and tanks using HE and bots using charges on tanks, etc
Just play around trying to see if you can pinpoint the issues with gameplay and code (We will reserve navmeshing BTs until we get a navmesh modder) and report any new issues we may have missed.
honestly, I do hope we get a big enough and united-enough team to make this worthwhile... And especially, if we can get our hands on a navmesher
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Any more help with fixing/improving the FH2 AI is definitely welcome!
There are some things - such as bot usage of tank shell types - which I'm not sure are fixable any further than I've already done with my AI mod - there are many areas of BF2's AI where it seems like no matter how you set up the data files to encourage the bots to do something in a particular way, there's no guarantee that they'll actually do it. With tank shells, I suspect the problem is that the BF2 AI was never designed to handle multiple shell types for the same weapon, and there is a certain amount of randomness hard-coded into the bot weapons selection.
Other things, like placing (and clearing?) mines should definitely be doable - since bots know how to do this in vBF2 - but I've no idea how; are suitable mine locations part of the map script/navmesh, or do the bots work out where to put the mines without any need for scripting?
Fixing the commo rose (so bots will respond to commands as they did in vBF2) is on my list of things to try and do (and I've already done a bit of work on it) but if someone else wants to work on this instead, that'd be great (lately I've been focusing on trying to track down the Goodwood + Luttich CTDs, and after that I was going to look at revising the "AI armour class" system so bots recognise heavily armoured tanks and unarmoured vehicles when choosing what weapon/shell type to fire).
It should be fairly straightforward to fix the commo rose by comparing the FH2 .con files (they're in Menu\HUD\HudSetup\Communication\Comms) with the original BF2 ones. It'd also be good if bots could respond to commands with "OK" or "negative" as they do in vBF2 (using the speech files assigned to the PageUp + PageDown keys).
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I've been following the sterling efforts of you guys here whilst testing SP within the team. To avoid confusion on both sides I'll wait until you've had a chance to check out the next release before getting involved.
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Like in 2.25?
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Not exactly, I'm running a newer build and can't discuss it before release, which can get tricky when comparing between 2.25, Drawde's patch and the latest beta.
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We appeciate... I just meant 2.25 had dismall SP with no new map. Anything you guys can do to help is much appreciated
Perhaps you may want to contact Drawde about HIS patch, alot of good things in that.. no need to reinvent the wheel... And perhaps add more bugs
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True, there was no 2.25 maps for SP on release, but to his credit, Winterhilf gave us Anctoville shortly thereafter. It's not 100% done, but it plays great.
Don't forget he also gave us Goodwood-16, and beta versions of Falaise and Totalize within a week or so, probably to stop us whining... :)
Honestly, I'm just happy someone "official" is taking interest in SP, esp. now that Winterhilf's gone AWOL.
And speaking of, what's it gonna take for Drawde to be made an official FH SP Dev?
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True, there was no 2.25 maps for SP on release, but to his credit, Winterhilf gave us Anctoville shortly thereafter. It's not 100% done, but it plays great.
Don't forget he also gave us Goodwood-16, and beta versions of Falaise and Totalize within a week or so, probably to stop us whining... :)
Honestly, I'm just happy someone "official" is taking interest in SP, esp. now that Winterhilf's gone AWOL.
And speaking of, what's it gonna take for Drawde to be made an official FH SP Dev?
I'll pass on what I can, but its kinda quiet in the SP camp right now.
As for being made or becoming a dev, it would probably take consistent work on SP over a period of time which gets noticed, or submission of an application to the team.
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Drawde would have to contact the Devs, from my experience, not a single Dev is visiting this place of the forums.
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Too soon? Then how about official AI bug-squasher? :)
I hope the devs know about the Stuka and AT gun fixes (in particular), they offer a HUGE improvement in the way SP maps play and require virtually no effort to implement.
It'd be a shame if they weren't applied to 2.26.
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To be honest I don't think I'd want to be an official FH2 dev even if I was offered the opportunity, I'm happy to work on AI fixes at my own pace but don't think I currently have enough spare time to work on the mod at the rate needed for official work, especially if it involves map testing. Also there are a lot of areas I have absolutely no experience with (map navmeshing for example) and with others, such as map AI scripting, I'm really learning as I go along.
However, I'd be more than happy for any of my AI fixes/tweaks (modified or adapted if necessary) to be incorporated into future FH2 releases. I think I recall a dev mentioning that the bomber bug (caused by the bomb models being reversed) had already been fixed; the AT gun aiming bug should also definitely be fixed (it's a mismatch between the AI control input settings and the input settings specified in the .tweak file for aiming the gun).
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Not exactly, I'm running a newer build and can't discuss it before release, which can get tricky when comparing between 2.25, Drawde's patch and the latest beta.
Personally, I think its BS that the devs declare SP a sub-project and not-official and yet things done regarding SP are still hush-hush... Look how that turned out for SP in 2.25...
We've all done an excellent work as an official group to try to pluck out all the bugs... Obviously an impossible task without Drawde, but I must say we all did our little share - I think there really needs to be a rethink about how the devs see SP...
If its official then, please give it some priority - If not, then let us work on it openly like we have. I'm sure they wont share their works with us to add AI, but we really do well with bug-fixing.. if they only popped in to see :-\
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Count me in for the beta testing.
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I've been following the sterling efforts of you guys here whilst testing SP within the team. To avoid confusion on both sides I'll wait until you've had a chance to check out the next release before getting involved.
Any word on the progress of SP for 2.26? Hey, let me just out and say it. We've done a damn fine job here to rival 2.0 through to 2.25 put together, so if Sp for 2.26 is still done in the commercial-hush-hush policy of the past, you might want to get your hands on Drawde's latest patch for 2.25 and Remick_04's extra maps so that we wont' need to make Drawde's patch compatible for a 2.26 wth sub-Drawde-standard AI and no new maps that cause Remick's to CTD.... See if you can incorporate Drawde's AI into 2.26 AI - Here's what Drawde has succesfully done so you know what's changed:
1. Stuka now dives and bombs targets and strafes infantry as do all fighter-bombers
2.CTD issue with PAK 40 gun fixed so Goodwood works now
3.stationary AT guns can now move on a swivel
4.Mobile AT guns have been made immovable by bots but allowed to swivel
5.Vehicles now categorized by armor so a heavy tank is distinguishable from a light tank for shell selection
6.Motars fire and have elevated LOS so they can see further than bot manning them can making them effective arty on the field - Similar work in progress for howitzers
7. Nebelwerfer fires with elevated LOS like mortar
8. Tanks use HE and AP depending on target
9. Infantry will engage open positions on vehicles with small arms fire
10. Bots can enter and bail/switch position on vehicles, but will camp artillery and mg positions to create static defensive positions
11. I might have forget others
Now these are all good things, so if possible, can whoever is on SP now consider including these into an official SP for 2.26 rather than scrapping all Drawde's efforts and coming out with something shoddy... No offense, but SP seems to picked up anew for each release with as many new issues introduced as fixes. We really would just want to see us all on the same page.
ps. Please let tanks fire on the move as was the case in 2.2 before Legion's code, until its completely fixed. It will be nice to see vehicles act like the mobile howitzers of BF42 i.e. the driver positions the vehicle in a position where the gunner can fire and stays there etc, but until it is realized, please let's have some un-paralyzing AI
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To add to Djinn's post - if any of the FH2 devs are reading this, I'd be happy for any of the fixes/changes/ideas in my AI minimod to be "stolen" for a future patch, if you don't want to use my modifications directly. I don't mind not being credited, I just don't want to have to start again from square one when 2.26 is released ;D
The AT gun and bomber fix, and the various CTD fixes (Sherman top MG, Pak40, Compo B, Jeep) ought to be in at least, as they're straightforward bug fixes rather than tweaks or additions. The PIAT CTD fix needs more work though, as my temporary fix allows you to equip the weapon when out of ammo. (I'd be interested to know why the "switch when out of ammo" line causes CTDs when bots use it...)
The raised artillery viewpoint is definitely NOT suitable as an "official" addition though, as there's no way to make it only appear in SP/co-op games, and it will probably make artillery overpowered in MP, as it allows you to see further without using a spotter.
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I too am curious about what Singleplayer work has been done for the upcoming 2.26 patch. Mostly because I don't want to spend so much time creating navmeshs for maps that need them, when the devs have done this themselves and have already incorporated it into 2.26. (And if they haven’t I certainly don't mind being an unanimous contributor either)
In the case of the raised artillery viewpoint, we could always take a page from Project Reality (I know... blasphemous) But in order to get the bots to fly planes, since the controls had been changed to be more realistic. The SP crew over there simply created a secondary set of planes that use vBF2 controls so that bots could use them, and substituted the AI friendly planes in on the maps... essentially having different gameplay objects in SP than MP. I believe it has sparked some debate though from the people who see SP as a place of training for MP. If the gameplay objects behave differently in SP than MP than you can't train properly for play online. I can understand that argument with planes that require some skill to operate and it's best to learn offline. But in the case of artillery I say phooey to that... SP is an alternative experience to MP, not a supplementary one... And artillery is an important part of the experience, especially on a WW2 battlefield.
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Good point on multiple artillery versions for SP. I definitely would say it would be quite daft to simply scrap Drawde's efforts at making arty FINALLY a part of the battlefield on principle. Especially mortar which I recall was deemed IMPOSSIBLE once upon a time.
@Remick04
Yes, indeed. I'm a tad irritated that we haven't heard from the devs as to which of 2.25 maps (All including those in NA) have been made bot-supported. Its not like we don't know how the maps look like.
Frankly, my rather scathing tone lately is as a result of an attitude of 'commercial-game' that the devs seem to exhibit of late. I respect them ofcourse and I will be the first to jump to FH's defense on anything, many of which are hardline decisions that actually make sense....But the idea of a mod, to me, has always been about open-communication. We have threads based on topics that would haven't even been given a second glance dominating the discussions since there's little else better to discuss with scant info coming from the devs about anything.
And specific to bot-support, it really feels like a no-brainer to me, to inform the community about maps being navmeshed or released with AI for the coming release so that fan-modders can streamline their efforts, a comprehensive log of the AI logic and changes for each version of AI-development to avoid negative changes and a need for rediscovery by the next AI person. It's sheer neglect that we don't even know the state of AI in FH2 at this point in time, with only cryptic 'We are on top of things' from RN_Max (Appreciated, but doesn't help assuage our concern).. Like for instance, who the heck is in charge these days?
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I've unerarthed this thread since I think it is again pertinent.
We currently have Drawde working on AI, and doing an incredible job of it, Remick_04 who is now a dev, has given us a great new surface to work with i.e Olympus, Totalize and Cobra which I can tell have already become some of our favorite maps... Sure hope, he keeps giving. Aserafimiv is also helping out, given us Villers Bocage, Lebisey 16 and now, Falaise with vehicle navmesh.
We still need some coordination though. I think it will be nice to get clearer feedback to Drawde and Aser about their work, like we did when this all started. Also, we should remember we are trying to add Singleplayer to the Official maps, meaning allowing singplayers to experience an alternative version to the pubbies....
Adding the lost vw and SDKthingy was an excellent thing, Drawde, in this respect, and glad to see Falaise in the flesh, that said I think we should try to stick as close to the original design, especially concerning maps, because these were already balanced by the devs. Any tweaks needed, as seen from us beta-testing the maps will surely be welcome, but it helps not to change things right off the bat
Also, I feel the amount of personal work required is getting hefty... ie. Drawde doesn't have to beta-test his own AI, nor Remick nor Aser their own maps... that's what we are there for, so lets give them the feedback they need. Also, we need to get this all in a format that Remick can easily use for the official version - It also does wonders for newbies who want singeplayer maps. If we can, we should try to put them in a way they can easily use. That's you, CannonFodder... since youhave the sticky...I was glad to see the properly skinned Panther in replacement in your version of Goodwood for instance....
Well, here's what we have achieved so far:
1/ We now have gotten Singleplayer back on the move!
2/ AI is improving for the first time since 2.2 and WinterHilf and Leagion's pet project
3/ We have solved the stuka dive issue that has been there since 2.0!
4/ We have gotten the Stuka using its divehorn - And what a divehorn that is.. Even the multiplayers will be envious if they decided to get their heads out of their own asses:-)
5/ We got mortar working - a task deemed impossible once upon a time on account of 'the elevation being too sharp', here, we've even outdone FH1
6/ Howtizers fire finally, albeit shorter ranged than we would have liked, but hopefully, if I don't cause too much friction for Drawde, we might get it firing further yet :-)
7/ Bots not only fight agressively and use decent smoke without getting transfixed by it, but also flee from grenades, flee when 'startled' and flee from overwhelming enemy strength i.e tanks versus riflemen
8/ All vehicles now have working AI code and can be plugged in at will without fear of CTD
9/ Bots can use everything and will use them tactically too allowing the devs skill in modelling and vehicle balancing shine through
10/ We currently have only 2 maps without any form of Singleplayer support - Point en Bessin and Mareth Line. With all but Lebisey and Villers Bocage being in final stage
11/ We have Remick on this inside, Drawde on the outside, which for me equates to a perfect way to get outside help in, like mods are supposed to be... and look what we've achieve doing that :-D
12/ Tanks fire all they have
13/ All AT infantry use their stuff
14/ We have restored the game to what the devs designed i.e needing to prone for mgs and AT. We might need to work a bit on the AT to get them to fire more, but from seeing mg gunners, I am convinced we are moving in the right direction.
15/ We have gotten bots to man static guns and stay on them, which makes for a proper battlefield for the first time
16/ Planes fly sensibly and choose their targets and weapons
17/ Most battles proceed to a conclusion not too far off from what the rfeal battle would have, with the human being the determining factor
*We wouldn't be where we are though without these people:
/Bizness, for the ground work and starting bots doing stuff the engine hadn't anticipated in the first place
/Winterhilf, for continuing where binzness left off, and in superb time, given us more maps, better AI and improving such things as the universal carrier and not to forget my persona favorite map, Alam halfa in all its glory.
/Leagion, for making more agressive bots, more tactically moving tanks and opening my eyes to getting bots to use everything
/Drawde, we couldn't have done this without you, man
/Remick04, where can we we play if we don't have a playground... Glad to have you aboard... keep being our tactical trooper :-)
/Aserafimov, glad to have you aboard, your work is certainly moving this grou along
/ Fellow chearleaders and BTs, CannonFodder, DJBarney, zoomotorpool, Raziel
/ DevilMan... Ok, you remind me of Deepthrout from Metal gear Solid for your mysterious but porfessional knowlege in these matters, but you've really been an aid in out buggiest issues :-)
/All other fans I might have forgotten. Every bit of help we need counts.
If you can do AI, navmesh, know something about historic balancing (Spike, I'm still waiting for you to get interested), do join us... we need all the hands we can get
Ok, back to the work desk....
I sure hope the devs would have kept up with our project and realized the benefit of this open-source work, which Drawde has said more than once, can be 'stolen' as long as it is used for the official release... You don't get the spirit of mods any more than that
I suggest we put a developer sticky thread up to focus our energies on getting this work out, and getting into the official version for 2.3 of whatever version is next, as well as put feedback and comments on issues or errors right here so they are in one area for logging. I suggest the first post be updated based on prevailing issues with bugs etc being outlined in bullet or paragraphs, one for each problem, so the actually developers (Drawde, Remick, Aserafimov) know exactly where to focus.
Extra posts in that thread would be the issues we discover as we discover them, and once this is corraborated, it will be updated into the first post... Anyone volunteer to be the one to have this post? You need to be up to date with the comments and the development in order to update your initial post
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How could you have forgotten me Djinn! ::)
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How could you have forgotten me Djinn! ::)
y'all must be seeing things :-p
Sorry, Raziel... that was shitty of me... You have been there throughout
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;D Woohhooo!! I'm an official FH2 Single Player Cheerleader/BT (http://serve.mysmiley.net/party/party0002.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net) (http://serve.mysmiley.net/party/party0007.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)
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Cheerleader?
Does that mean I should start checking the mailbox for my official FH2 pom-poms?
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lol... A misnomer... I would have said fan/beta tester/ support team, but it didn't have quite the ring I was looking for
Besides, with the bulk of the work being done by Drawde, Remick, Aserafimov, I frankly didn't want to diminish that by given us an over-sophisticated name... But y'all know we are important. Backstage crew don't get the glory but y'all in the front better remember that we're there too ;-)