Author Topic: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.  (Read 14641 times)

Offline MaJ.P.Bouras

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #45 on: 09-09-2014, 19:09:58 »
The only way for Commander to work in FH is if he would coordinate squads in their attacks/defenses. In PR most of the times he is not needed simply because SL's will decide on their own to stay on defense or communicate with each other on what to do.

For those who don't know about it PR has an amazing integrated  mumble talking system. "H" is proximity talk (close friendlies), "Num 0" talks to your entire squad, "*" is General channel for all SL's and Commander, "/" is commander only channel and all the other "Num X" are used for talking directly to the other squads.

Now if i want another squad to join me in an attack or hold back or take another route i simply have to push the correct button and it will be through in less than 3 seconds. In FH2 i have to type and if I'm lucky it might not get lost in the amount of chat already existing. So IMO the only thing holding Teamwork a bit back in FH2 is comms.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #46 on: 09-09-2014, 20:09:01 »
I think the reason of commanders being close to useless is how the Battlefield games are created. In BF 1942 we didn't have a commander and the game worked flawless, but it lacked the ability to form squads and to work on squad level effectively. I think squads and the communication between them is how far teamwork can get in Battlefield. That the maps are relatively small is one reason why the commander is not really necessary. SLs will see what is needed most of the time in a far shorter amount of time.

In games like ArmA I see it a bit different. In those kind of games with complex movement of troops a commander can play a much more important role and fits more into the mechanic and the huge scale. With the drones and all those little toys it makes just more sense. In BF it is just a player who clicks on the map and I find those kind of gimmicks pretty annoying. The player with the least required skill has the most power. And even in this case most of them are too dumb to click on the map at the right spot.

Offline th_battleaxe

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #47 on: 09-09-2014, 20:09:32 »
Hang on a minute, since when are you a dev?
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J'aime l'oignon, frît à l'huile
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Offline Ts4EVER

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #48 on: 09-09-2014, 21:09:01 »
A week or so.

Offline Jimi Hendrix

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #49 on: 10-09-2014, 02:09:02 »
 I am also a Dev of sorts.....


$talkker
Captain Of Devildogs
Developer Of Soldiers



 ;D
« Last Edit: 10-09-2014, 05:09:23 by Jimi Hendrix »



Offline MaJ.P.Bouras

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #50 on: 10-09-2014, 12:09:42 »
You did not make your name bold

2/11 would not illegally pirate.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #51 on: 10-09-2014, 14:09:47 »
The player with the least required skill has the most power. And even in this case most of them are too dumb to click on the map at the right spot.

Depends on how you define "skill". The "commander" does not need any special "skillz" (as in twitchy reflexes and laser vision) to do his job. On the other hand The Commander needs a very big skillset to be an effective member of the team. In fact I'd say the amount of required skills that the current Commander needs in FH2 is so big that nobody in this community has them.
Basically, the Commander in FH2 needs to have the following:
  • Enormous imagination and photographic memory, so he can effectively be aware of the past, present AND future state of the battlefield at all times
  • Great communication skills, as he needs to talk with people from all over the world, with people that have low quality mics and with people that are outright annoyed by his attempts at "joining the team"
  • Endless patience, as finding people who are willing to cooperate is nigh impossible
  • A ridiculous amount of persuasion skill to persuade people to take his advice
  • Very high perseverance in doing his job, as his toolset is rather limited

Obviously, such a person probably does not exist in this (or any for that matter) community. So how do we help him? We can go two ways, either abolish him completely (which is what FH2 has been doing ever since commander radios have started to disappear on newer maps) or give him more tools to do his job.

Basically, currently the Commander in FH2 is like your crazy rambling grandma that you tend to ignore all the time, but when you need something first thing you do is go cry to her to give you some cash so you can buy some shiny stuff.
« Last Edit: 10-09-2014, 14:09:43 by LuckyOne »
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Airshark79

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #52 on: 10-09-2014, 16:09:14 »
1. I only said the situation concerning commander within boundaries of FH2 wrongfully does not suit its original vision.

2.I've never mentioned revive as an addition to the gameplay.

3. You mention successful organisation. You are delusional.

I would actually like to have a conversation where we listen to each other so that you may stop the "buyudun00b" bullshit and bring in the value of thought.

Really, I am trying my best to make you not respond to me in this thread.

Offline Airshark79

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #53 on: 10-09-2014, 17:09:19 »
Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being *Lebisey* and Bardia.

Clevely organising 5 men to attack a loosely defended flag should bring an impact with high rates of success. Organising and dividing 30 men to attack different flags simultaneously should bring in astounding feats and thrilling and breathtaking combat.

Reliance on fraggers and campers make the game stale apart from the AAS push maps where it is more funneled and the play area is tight.
« Last Edit: 10-09-2014, 17:09:08 by Airshark79 »

Offline Gotkai

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #54 on: 10-09-2014, 17:09:13 »
What shall i say? Hm.
To make it short: NO!

Exactly the opposite is true. Only on narrow maps this Commandar Artillery is useful. Otherwise troops are spreaded over a very large area to inflict significant damage.

Skill for commander is really secondary. In many cases it is completely useless to have a commander in the team. No matter what skill.

Offline radiosmersh

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #55 on: 10-09-2014, 17:09:28 »
Commander has an impact in geometric and/or wide maps, tightest being St.Lo and Bardia.

Clevely organising 5 men to attack a loosely defended flag should bring an impact with high rates of success. Organising and dividing 30 men to attack different flags simultaneously should bring in astounding feats and thrilling and breathtaking combat.

Reliance on fraggers and campers make the game stale apart from the AAS push maps where it is more funneled and the play area is tight.
I thought you quit.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #56 on: 10-09-2014, 18:09:33 »
1. I only said the situation concerning commander within boundaries of FH2 wrongfully does not suit its original vision.

2.I've never mentioned revive as an addition to the gameplay.

3. You mention successful organisation. You are delusional.

I would actually like to have a conversation where we listen to each other so that you may stop the "buyudun00b" bullshit and bring in the value of thought.

Really, I am trying my best to make you not respond to me in this thread.

I am not telling you to shut up or anything. It is just your attitude towards people who play that game for a far longer time than you that is pretty annoying and even arrogant. We have people here who play the game for allmost over a decade now with thousends of hours. I am more or less a "newcomer" aswell as I started playing the game in 2009/2010. The difference between you and most other new players is that they are a bit more down-to-earth and don't tell the "older" players how to enjoy their game. They ask questions so that they can improve themself or how they can have a more enjoyable time. Listening to you it sounds as if you have mastered the game to it's fullest potential in every aspect, what you clearly haven't. Don't tell me, that I can't have teamplay in my game. It is really annoying.  >:(

I never called you a "noob" or anything, what doesn't make any sense in this game anyway. You never stop learning in FH2 and I hope that you will undertstand that at one point of our "conversation". Because atm it feels like talking with a wall. It is the same as if I would start to tell my grandfather who is 50 years older how he should have lived his live. There are things that you can't replace - experience being one of them. But you on the other hand call me delusional and leave it as it is. What am I supposed to do with such an arrogant statement?
« Last Edit: 10-09-2014, 18:09:17 by hitm4k3r »

Offline Airshark79

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #57 on: 13-09-2014, 17:09:58 »
I am not telling you to shut up or anything. It is just your attitude towards people who play that game for a far longer time than you that is pretty annoying and even arrogant. We have people here who play the game for allmost over a decade now with thousends of hours. I am more or less a "newcomer" aswell as I started playing the game in 2009/2010. The difference between you and most other new players is that they are a bit more down-to-earth and don't tell the "older" players how to enjoy their game. They ask questions so that they can improve themself or how they can have a more enjoyable time. Listening to you it sounds as if you have mastered the game to it's fullest potential in every aspect, what you clearly haven't. Don't tell me, that I can't have teamplay in my game. It is really annoying.  >:(

I never called you a "noob" or anything, what doesn't make any sense in this game anyway. You never stop learning in FH2 and I hope that you will undertstand that at one point of our "conversation". Because atm it feels like talking with a wall. It is the same as if I would start to tell my grandfather who is 50 years older how he should have lived his live. There are things that you can't replace - experience being one of them. But you on the other hand call me delusional and leave it as it is. What am I supposed to do with such an arrogant statement?


Ok. I have two days free, lets make the most of it.

Sorry for calling you delusional and leaving that statement as it was. The fact to the matter was that I had little spare time and had a ten-year old touchscreen phone.

Firstly, I am not telling people how to enjoy a game. I am merely telling the community of FH public forums that there are problems that needs to be taken care of and there are other options other than pretending everything works great and FH2 is the best mod ever with the best gameplay ever. (as in teamplay, map activity, gunplay, the things the newbs have to deal with(in many cases they prefer not to), PR, commander, and the view towards vBF2 community)

Seondly, calling me arrogant is a bad idea, because it is hard as heck to tell regulars of here about my unothodox views. It's not easy reading people who think the complete opposite, and posts that sometimes make fun of the mistakes of my train of thought. I am not talking as the last few years were in vain, but I am only telling there is still a future and time to take action.

Honestly, I may not be the best in this game. But that doesn't mean that I've learnt nothing in the last 10 or so years. About both gaming and Battlefield. It is easier for me to see why DICE designed the genre and how they made it evolve in the following years with additions until after 2142 compared to many others. I think mainly around those, Battlefields from 1942 to 3, Project Reality, Forgotten Hope 2, and being the ordinary gamer I am. I have my experiences and these are conclusions I put up according to them. This is nothing compared to philisophy.

My views, teamplay is weak, and so is gunplay. I know the anonymous athmosphere of BF2 and suitableness of 2142 for commander action and what it was and how it was able to do with cooperating squads. This mod is made on the Refractor 2 engine. I believe acting in spite of its limitations is a mistake, and trying some aspects of the working formulas will not do any harm, if you don't count extra knowledge.

Similar paragraphs, one month.

Quote
Your squad is good, when it looks for a weakspot in the defence, thus opposition comes down to a minimum. If you don't do this, then your squad just sucks from a strategy POV and any teamplay mechanics won't help you when you fail right at the start.

Well, you describe the best way to win in FH2, sneak until you get into a virtual zone that defines who owns the area, and flashcap. But, from the FPS standpoint, it has little value in terms of gameplay. In terms of communication and interaction for an FPS title. There are only two other scenarios, one where whole teams fight for a 200 meter stretch, or the low-player-density 1v1 gamblefest which I described in the fragility thread.

This gets me back to the idea behind battlefield(with 1hk). Squad battles are crippled, and there is no battle in this gamblefest. The case is way clearer to see in the campaign rounds. The way to play you describe, was the most common way to do it unless the defended flag was one of the last three remaining.

I know what you mean by strategy, and I think it is delusional to expect it to happen with every rounds in every single day. Communication will be more utilised once it pays off. And not talking about the revive mechanic.

@Gotkai Your views are no better than mine, just the opposite. But I remember you hated assisting people.

Offline hitm4k3r

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #58 on: 13-09-2014, 20:09:59 »
Well, your last sentence to Gotkai sums up pretty much what I tried to told you. Gotkai sure enough knows how artillery works in FH2. And now please read carefully: he didn't give you an opinion of how arty works. He gave you a fact. I hope you know the difference between those two.

I never said that you haven't learned anything btw. Please don't inpterprete the things as it pleases you, maybe read things twice. I said that you never stop learning in this game. So if you really think that artillery works better on bigger than on smaller maps then you cleary haven't learned enough. Those are not even facts that you need to base on experience. In this case it is just a matter of logic. Some changes to the mod happened because of this fact.

Offline Airshark79

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Re: TEAMWORK - And why it actually works.
« Reply #59 on: 13-09-2014, 21:09:14 »
As far as I can remember, I stated no opinions about artillery