Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Suggestions => Topic started by: Laffey on 09-02-2011, 00:02:20

Title: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Laffey on 09-02-2011, 00:02:20
1. Blinking
When you hear loud noises that you do not "expect"  i.e. a bullet crack you tend to blink your eyes subconsciously for a very short time. This can be implemented in the game as a slight dimming and flickering of the screen as each shot goes past. So a MG would be more effective then a bolt-action for suppression.

2. Twiching
Same reason as above. A subconscious movement by muscles due to sudden noises. The "twiching" can be very subtle but it would make returning fire with sniper-like accuracy as currently ingame more difficult.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Beaufort on 09-02-2011, 00:02:47
Sounds nice. Better than the blur...
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Josh094 on 09-02-2011, 00:02:02
I've always wanted this, so i'm 100% behind it.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Musti on 09-02-2011, 00:02:40
hahahah!
imagine a guy blinking with each MG42 bullet going past! 1200 blinks a minute!
Good suggestion though. If thats possible
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Kelmola on 09-02-2011, 00:02:20
Well, the screen gets progressively dimmer until it goes black altogether, and all you can hear is your heart pounding...

This sounds even more awesom-0 than the pre-2.15 blur effect ever was.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Oddball on 09-02-2011, 01:02:29
^Yeah but your not going to be "blind" do to Mg suppression. Especially veterans who are fimiliar to the scenerios...okay the first couple round might initially take you off guard and cause the above effects, but after that you should be able to gather your witts and take cover, etc..
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: VonMudra on 09-02-2011, 02:02:05
^Yeah but your not going to be "blind" do to Mg suppression. Especially veterans who are fimiliar to the scenerios...okay the first couple round might initially take you off guard and cause the above effects, but after that you should be able to gather your witts and take cover, etc..

Exactly.  And blinking is already modeled ingame, haven't you guys had your official FH2 brand "eyelid" adaptors installed over your eyes?  I did long ago.

The best way to improve suppression is simply to return to what it was in 2.0, back when it worked.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: djinn on 09-02-2011, 05:02:12
I already said it, doable and works too...,

Make blur bullet-based, not gun based i.e calibre of bullet sustained by frequency.

then make that exposive effect that causes blur also cause slight camera shake aka twitch, increase the intensity and frequency as more and bigger bullets fly by - so that at totally suppression, you get:

1/ disorientation aka blur
2/ inability to return fire i.e camera shake.

and presto, suppression works. And the twitch was suggested by Natty, so its very possible - and acceptable, if you can simply run the idea home.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Kubador on 09-02-2011, 06:02:06
If only the suppressive fire shader could be linked to the cone of fire and deviation system... *sigh*
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: theUg on 09-02-2011, 06:02:56
Just make it like PR does, works wonders. Or even like FH2 was few patches ago, before they nerfed supression.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Alakazou on 09-02-2011, 06:02:03
Just make it like PR does, works wonders. Or even like FH2 was few patches ago, before they nerfed supression.
You know the one you see in PR it's from Fh2 2.0...
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: djinn on 09-02-2011, 07:02:53
thats the obvious and imo, wrong way to go. Suppression isnt about blinding you and definitely not with that degree of blur. Thats overdone. And btw, PR's suppressive effect is NOT from 2.0. Looks totally different.

if your memory isn't serving you, look at the training vids for FH... THAT was 2.0. Theirs is more 'solid', completely removing everything you see - Ours is blur.

Current suppression, I think, is fine. Just needs to be at bullet-level so it becomes a practical team tactic.

Blur disorients - But that's not what causes you not to return fire, its your fear to fire back and the involuntary actions that make it such that you can't trust yourself to safely

So we have disorienation blur, but not exaggerated, and we have twitch so your aim is thrown off. Also, I think the devs might want to look at whizz and dirty kick sounds. The crack sound we have is when the bullet flies by. What we need more of, is the sound of a bullet actually hitting the earth close to you. It should be more insistent that the dust-particle sound we currently have for that. A player needs to realize how close he was to gettin hit.

And so, with only subtle effects, as this is a game, we will still achieve total suppression - And it will be based on suppressive fire, not suppression guns - You need to actually keep the dude under fire with enough guns, or enough firepower and that would take real skill - Not just a limited kit.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: SiCaRiO on 09-02-2011, 11:02:29
Just make it like PR does, works wonders. Or even like FH2 was few patches ago, before they nerfed supression.
You know the one you see in PR it's from Fh2 2.0...

not really, PR one is way more saturated :P
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Sgt.Radman on 09-02-2011, 12:02:25
If you look at other games like CoH or BiA you see that you need several guys to start shooting at a target to suppress it. And of course logic tells you that also. So suppression fire is something that needs to be used tactically. Not a feature you get by having a big gun.

BUT ... in the interest of gameplay and fun, suppression fire should be achieved by a single "group" (read : MG gunner) in the path of survivability since LMGs got their nerf in accuracy.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Beaufort on 09-02-2011, 12:02:01
^Yeah but your not going to be "blind" do to Mg suppression. Especially veterans who are fimiliar to the scenerios...okay the first couple round might initially take you off guard and cause the above effects, but after that you should be able to gather your witts and take cover, etc..

Exactly.  And blinking is already modeled ingame, haven't you guys had your official FH2 brand "eyelid" adaptors installed over your eyes?  I did long ago.

The best way to improve suppression is simply to return to what it was in 2.0, back when it worked.

I don't see why the blurr would be more realistic. You don't catch myopia everytime you are under mg fire, do you ?

Anyway, twiching is the best imo. Suppression would happen way more often than in PR, so ugly screen spam like the blurr should stay out or as it is now...
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Pr0z4c on 09-02-2011, 13:02:05
I didnt read all of it here above, but,, im sorry i think its a bad idea!
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: kummitus on 09-02-2011, 15:02:27
If you look at other games like CoH or BiA

Problem is that the computer says that the guy is pinned down, you would need to have something that forces you to be unable to fire and prone to have same kind of effect!
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: djinn on 09-02-2011, 17:02:36
Yer, those were AI play-acting the effect. It only worked because of that fact. Players don't get pinned in those games - not really.

Ours is focused on actually suppressing the player. We need a way to give him as close to RL feel of being suppressed. Where that won't work, we need to create a game-mechanic that gives the player the limitations that cause RL soldiers to keep low under fire and not return fire.

Its actually more rewarding in our case than in BIA or CoH where it is automatic.

That's why I suggested what I did: bullet-level suppressive effect, suppressive effect (twitch and increasing blur) to disorient and throw aim off. You can turn and run, but you are likely to be a sitting duck for a bullet in the back, or you can fire back blindly, not even sure if you're firing the right way, and if you are on target.

So once you get the first few blurs and shakes, you either work at fire superiority or fall back, or else you'd soon to be suppressed.

Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: VonMudra on 09-02-2011, 17:02:07
^Yeah but your not going to be "blind" do to Mg suppression. Especially veterans who are fimiliar to the scenerios...okay the first couple round might initially take you off guard and cause the above effects, but after that you should be able to gather your witts and take cover, etc..

Exactly.  And blinking is already modeled ingame, haven't you guys had your official FH2 brand "eyelid" adaptors installed over your eyes?  I did long ago.

The best way to improve suppression is simply to return to what it was in 2.0, back when it worked.

I don't see why the blurr would be more realistic. You don't catch myopia everytime you are under mg fire, do you ?

Anyway, twiching is the best imo. Suppression would happen way more often than in PR, so ugly screen spam like the blurr should stay out or as it is now...

Never said more realistic.  I said best, as in the best way to force suppression on someone ingame.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: djinn on 09-02-2011, 18:02:47
This is the reason for the effects:

When a person is fired at, the bullet, flying at high speed, hits a surface close to the person with enough force to cause the person to feel the slight viberation of the hit, or at least hear the sound and get a sense of the sheer mass of the bullet that hit, and the speed of it. The effect can be compared to a flashbang. An overwhelming of the senses with fear-fight and startle, that causes the person to be somewhat disoriented.

This usually depends on the nerves of the person, but this cannot be depicted ingame. The remaining, which we can depict is that disorientation in the form of a split-second blur (Which is kind of how long you would be startled by each near-miss). The more conscious part of the brain may at first try to flee or fight, then realize more bullets are flying and hitting close. The former effect making the suppressee sluggish in response will then prompt him to keep down. He may try to return fire again, but the effect takes over a second time.

Until this is reduced, the person will be unable to do better than TRY to return fire, and more likely, lay low altogether until it ceases.

See why the semi-screen shake AKA twitch (causing accuracy loss) and blur (representing and causing disorientation) are the best effects to actually get a player suppressed?

For a single bullet,, the effect should be more of less like a blink i.e real brief, but with successive bullets or larger caliber, it becomes more until it gets as bad as it can get now.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Oberst on 28-02-2011, 14:02:29
During the Game Night 13 and some forum search some Ideas about cover/supression fire came into  my mind. I didnt wont to start a new thread, although this post might be a summary of other post combined with some new thoughts.

The absence of the hit indicator during the game night inspired me to some thoughts about the cover fire. Why does cover fire at the moment not work?

1. The penalty (death) is not a real penalty, as you respawn 10-20 seconds later.
2. It is more easy to pop up and "laser kill" the enemy, rather than staying down and waiting for support.
3. Once you hit or kill the enemy, you know it instantly. So now more shooting is necessary.

The first point can't be changed (and should never be). Only a minor group of players would get, why the spawn team increased, the other wouldnt understand and leave. Even if you get it, a long respawn time would be the death to gameplay, so no way.

But regarding to the second and third reason several minor changes can be done, which would not affect gameplay much. The changes are (Some points have bee brought up by other people in other posts before, so its not all my ideas):

1. Removing hit indicator (Server settings, so possible today): Without hit indicator, you dont know if you hit the enemy and if you have done any damage. So it becomes more difficult in general to hit and to adjust your shots. This change affects the suppressor AND the suppressed guys!  (This is also for tank warfare, so shooting beyond fog range and pixel shooting would be more difficult, it leads to better tank warfare)

Of course the hit indicator serves a purpose and there is a reason, why there is a hit indicator. The hit indicator allows you to know if you hit the target, or if you have to adjust your sights. As this is a game, you need a feedback, if you hit the enemy or if you need to adjust your sights. In real life your eyes have a higher resolution, then a computer monitor has, so at the distance it is still possible to see the effect you did to a target. And I am sure this is only one aspect of the hit indicator.

2. Removing or setting a delay of maybe 10 to 20 seconds in the kill messages. In the current gameplay, you know instantly, that you killed your opponent. So there is no more need for supression or other things. But if you have no idea, if he is dead and if you still want to move closer, you need suppression fire.

I am against the total removing of kill messages, as this is still a shooter, where you want to know, who you killed and if you get killed, you want to know who killed you and with which weapon. But if possible, you still can set a delay, before the kill messages come up. ofcourse this is still disturbing somehow, as it is difficult to find out, which kill someone did at what time, so it is still a bad idea.

3. Increasing the effective area of the suppresion effect. In the current situation the effect comes up, when the bullets travel or hit in an area about maybe 2 m around you (I dont know the current number). This area need to be increased a little bit to 3 or 4 m. So suppresion is more effective.

4. Atleast maybe some changes in the effect, like increasing deviation or whatever.

Just some thoughts. I hope, you get my point.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: LuckyOne on 28-02-2011, 15:02:23
^ I agree with everything above except increasing deviation
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Beaufort on 28-02-2011, 16:02:12
It has been discussed here :

http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=11610.0

... and the devs said they were making some changes with the HUD for the next patch.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Oberst on 28-02-2011, 20:02:50
I knew about the Hit indicator thread, that's where some of my ideas are from. But the original Input, which made me think about the whole topic and reviewing some of the threads, was the deactivated hit indicator at the game night. I was suppressed by two BAR gunners. And I wasn't sure, if I hit them and they didnt stop shooting, as they didnt know I was hit or not.

I didnt knew or cant remember the conlusion of the thread, that something will be changed, so thanks for sharing the information.
And as I searched for suitable threads I took the one, which wasn't the oldest. And I am supprised, that the last post from the hit indicator thread is so young.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: flyboy_fx on 07-03-2011, 20:03:09
Yea, suppression has to be fixed. Nobody is afraid of my Mg 42 now.  :'(
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Paavopesusieni on 07-03-2011, 21:03:27
Oh MG42 *lines up the sights of No.4* die! *shoots* haha got ya. Oh an AT guy *bang*, so easy. 
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: HadrianBT on 09-03-2011, 03:03:19
2 djinn:
Only the fear there, not that much from vibration.
Consider a rifle bullet (6g, 1000 m/s for simplicity) and somebody stomping his foot (12 kg(? no idea lol), 10 m/s since a free-fall of my body from 0.5m would be ~3.1 m/s). The kinetic energy is, therefore:
1) 3 kJoules for a bullet
2) 0.6 kJoules for stomping a leg
So the vibration from a bullet is equal to 5 people stomping their feet simultaneously in front of you, which doesn't create too much vibration.
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: djinn on 09-03-2011, 12:03:49
We arent going to get the 'fear' so we can only emulate the effect of the fear i.e. Greater reason for innacuracy, twitch and disorientation i.e. The flashbang effect
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: Kev4000 on 09-03-2011, 13:03:18
We arent going to get the 'fear' so we can only emulate the effect of the fear i.e. Greater reason for innacuracy, twitch and disorientation i.e. The flashbang effect

Unless we attach some wires from the computer into your brain.
Any volunteers for this new project?
Title: Re: 2 Ways Improvement of Suppression Fire
Post by: sn00x on 09-03-2011, 23:03:35
meee me me mememe! ;D