Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

[ottozeimer]

Any country would have done exactly the same (Afaik the ships were either on the verge of entering International waters, or already in Israelian waters) . Check out the radio communications, they are very decent from Israelian side and *quite* indecent from the aidship's side referring to 9/11 and other such matters.

I am perfectly fine with pointing fingers at Israel any time of the day, but this specific instance is just not one of them whatever way I look at it. They were in their full right to board the ships (remember, Israelian waters or on the verge of entering them). They were in their full right to return fire (which is how it looks at this moment). And the boarding ships were FAR from innocent in nature, as is seen on videos and photos from a turkish sources (which should show a best case scenario, but dont).

Nazi Germany wasn't exactly the nicest, but I think everyone agrees that twisting history to 'just put some more blame on the already evil Germans' is not the right thing to do.

I see a similar thing happen with this case happening right now. And for those who keep holding hands above the corrupt Hamas regime ....remove the flaps from your eyes. Hamas has done many evil things, not perse to Israelians but as well to their own people and are a criminal organisation that is benefitting tremendously from the current status quo to preserve their power and control the flow of aid money and goods.

Period.

you couldn't be more wrong here. In 2007 Iran has seized British marines in its water (not the international ones). no shots fired, no casualties. and we are talking here about the "bad ass Ahmedinejad" seizing a military ship from a very unfriendly country. so why "democratic countries" attack humanitarian aid ships in the International waters? while "uncivilised countries" can seize a military ship of some leading navy in the world without a shot fired? so the myth about countries have to do so is blown.

Hamas is as much corrupted as any political power, no more, no less. but when Hamas was a sole winner in the Palestinian election it promised a sovereign country and could not deliver, because Israel put such harsh sanctions, than no medicine, food, money, electricity or water could get into Gaza, and West bank. sounds familiar? sounds like ghetto to me.

The only answer to Israeli Palestinian state is one state, on democratic basis and equal rights/treatment to all Israelis and Palestinians. simple.

Watch this folks as the last apartheid regime is crumbling, we saw it once when the racist SAFA apartheid regime has collapsed, Israel's fate is similar.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

The same sane people are not demanding that Israel gives up its land and moves back to the usa or whatever.
But the same is expected of them to end the ongoing crime of taking even more land from the palestinians.

And that is a reasonable and respectable position to take. But that's not what Ottozeimer appears to be advocating.

[Oddball]

The same sane people are not demanding that Israel gives up its land and moves back to the usa or whatever.
But the same is expected of them to end the ongoing crime of taking even more land from the palestinians.

And that is a reasonable and respectable position to take. But that's not what Ottozeimer appears to be advocating.

The only land Israel took was Gaza Strip and West Bank, both after conflicts STARTED by the palestinians...the gave it back once, but they don't learn. Besides that, Jews don't have an official "country" to go to...

[Pascucci the Whiner]

I have decided to stay out of this flame war after what happened last time and will only make one post.  The Israelis and the Palestinians would like nothing more than to wipe each-other off the face of the planet. This is a private matter that the other nations shouldn't get involved in and is certainly not a holocaust or even anything close to it. You guys can keep fighting, but the argument can be seen from either side and therefore you arguments are all pointless and this is a matter that could only be thought over if you actually were Israeli or Palestinian and had seen it for yourself.

[Oddball]

arisaka99, your back!

[[130.Pz]S.Lainer]

I have decided to stay out of this flame war after what happened last time and will only make one post.  The Israelis and the Palestinians would like nothing more than to wipe each-other off the face of the planet. This is a private matter that the other nations shouldn't get involved in and is certainly not a holocaust or even anything close to it. You guys can keep fighting, but the argument can be seen from either side and therefore you arguments are all pointless and this is a matter that could only be thought over if you actually were Israeli or Palestinian and had seen it for yourself.

Woot you are back!  Kinda......

Agreed.  Don't give a shit.  My Government needs to stay the fuck out of other countries business and start dealing with things at home.

[Oddball]

I have decided to stay out of this flame war after what happened last time and will only make one post.  The Israelis and the Palestinians would like nothing more than to wipe each-other off the face of the planet. This is a private matter that the other nations shouldn't get involved in and is certainly not a holocaust or even anything close to it. You guys can keep fighting, but the argument can be seen from either side and therefore you arguments are all pointless and this is a matter that could only be thought over if you actually were Israeli or Palestinian and had seen it for yourself.

Woot you are back!  Kinda......

Agreed.  Don't give a shit.  My Government needs to stay the fuck out of other countries business and start dealing with things at home.

Too late, we're fucked, so lets go around fucking up other people's lives, too. No? Sounds like a plan to me. 

[siben]

Is Israel really, "rightfully" Jewish in the first place?  I mean, Tennessee is rightfully Cherokee but they haven't quite gotten it back yet.

Same logic goes for Palestinians who claim the land is "rightfully" theirs.

Well they were living there when it was taken.

Edit: Ah, I see Siben's response.

Huh? I haven't said anything in this tread for a long time now. What did i say?

[Dnarag1M]

you couldn't be more wrong here. In 2007 Iran has seized British marines in its water (not the international ones). no shots fired, no casualties. and we are talking here about the "bad ass Ahmedinejad" seizing a military ship from a very unfriendly country. so why "democratic countries" attack humanitarian aid ships in the International waters? while "uncivilised countries" can seize a military ship of some leading navy in the world without a shot fired? so the myth about countries have to do so is blown.

I think if you took five minutes to research that case, you would not have typed this silly reaction.

First :
The British marines were in the Shatt-al-Arab salt marshes, a 120 mile wide disputed zone between Irak and Iran to find smugglers. They were sanctioned by the UN to do this. Iran has been part of the UN for five decades!

Second :
The British marines did not have a death wish unlike the extremists and martyrdom searchers aboard the 'aidvessels'. They faced overwhelming enemy superiority and surrendered to the Iranians without violence.

Would they have shot at the Iranian republic guard they might have been annihilated. But, and this is the most obvious : Although Iran is perfectly comfortable capturing, exhibitioning as trofee and then releasing British military personnel, they would never want to provoke the western military too much. Killing them might have caused a second Iraq, not in the advantage of Ahmadinejad.

All in all I think you are a bit overbiased and have cloudy thinking. Exactly my point earlier - I am fully aware that Israel is far from being a healthy state, but even in the face of overwhelming evidence so far you seem to completely ignore the deliberate deathwish of many people aboard the aid-ships and the occurrence of events aboard as far as we can construct them now.

The thing I frown upon is that they entered the ships so early in International Waters. Although the ships were clearly heading for the Gaza strip (see plotted GPS courses and listen to conversations between the ships) I think it would have been smarter to wait until they were really there. This is in my eyes a technicality, but does not change a spat of blood shed in the ships - it would have been the same 1 hour later, in Israelian waters.

[siben]

I read the raid was done in international waters because if they would have waited longer it would have been day, thus more people awake. I understand to logic behind it but they should have indeed waited a few more hours and boarded the ship during daylight outside of international waters.

[Dnarag1M]

Sounds very tactical - of both the Israelis _and_ the aidships. They well knew this probably, and tried to reach the strip by the first daylight. That shines some light on the situation I guess...

[ottozeimer]

Dnarag, are you high or just incredibly stupid?

Don't victimise and dont mystify Islam and muslims, they think in the same categories as we do - we want to live peacefully, and they do. we want to prosper, and they do, simple. If a military starts shooting at a peaceful demonstration in Havana, Santiago, Belfast or Gaza, or Fallujah the response will always be the same - clandestine non state para military operation - terrorism.

add to that if you wiped out half of their families, destroyed their homes, so the other half of families have to stay i rubble or temporary shelters, no water, electrician, medicine and so forth.
Russians in WW2 were willing to die, because they had nothing else to loose and they were not muslims.

People more often go Postal in the Western world than suicidal in the Middle east, seriously, shoot-outs at schools, workplaces, towns and so on, and you say muslims have that special trait to be keen to suicide? cmon. Deathwish is a natural trait to every human of any origin in the world, you just have to keep pissing him off very much!

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

So do you think that if the west just left the Muslim world alone, people would stop attacking us?

[hankypanky]

So do you think that if the west just left the Muslim world alone, people would stop attacking us?

bingo 
If you stop fucking with people then people won't fuck with you. (Sorry for the cursing

[Moose]

So do you think that if the west just left the Muslim world alone, people would stop attacking us?

bingo 
If you stop fucking with people then people won't fuck with you. (Sorry for the cursing

I've missed this whole thread. But no.