Author Topic: In the news...  (Read 15840 times)

Offline th_battleaxe

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #255 on: 23-03-2014, 11:03:15 »
So Theta lives in the Belgian Bradford?

No, the Belgian Bradford is either Borgerhout, or the Brussels Capital Region.
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Offline Zoologic

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #256 on: 23-03-2014, 14:03:38 »
If you countercheck some major conflicts of the past and today, this guideline fits well.
  • Yogoslavia saw a genocide (thus new nations were created).
  • Iraq had an undemocratic regime.
  • Tunesia had an undemocratic regime.
  • Libya had an undemocratic regime.
  • Egypt had an undemocratic regime.
  • Syria has an undemocratic regime.
  • Ukraine had a rather democratic regime, but can be considered a special case. The country is a rather instable nation, with previous regime changes. In this case we prefer presence of any (democratic) order over lack of any governance (unrest).
  • Crimea saw no genocide.

I accept this reasoning. It is quite fair and square. I don't care about anti-interventionist opinion or possible unfavourable outcomes, but principle is a principle.

But this happens without "ultranationalist" Ukrainian committing violence towards ethnic Russians who elected Yanukovich to office. The Russians acted preemptively on that allegation, if their concern were correct.

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #257 on: 23-03-2014, 15:03:28 »


We, in the european west, believe that it is no good idea to further segment the world into inefficient sovereignties. The world is already fully segmented into sovereignities. Each place on earth got a government and can be adressed. Minorities should no longer receive protection by creating their own nations, but by granting them the required rights in the those existing nations.

Accordingly our priorities are these:
  • Create democratic governments where no governments exists or support revolutions where governments are undemocratic.
  • Protect minorities and civil rights by influencing the existing governments to do so.
  • Return to step #1 and create 2 different countries, only if influencing the government fails hard (genocide etc.).


If you countercheck some major conflicts of the past and today, this guideline fits well.
  • Yugoslavia saw a genocide (thus new nations were created).
  • Iraq had an undemocratic regime.
  • Tunesia had an undemocratic regime.
  • Libya had an undemocratic regime.
  • Egypt had an undemocratic regime.
  • Syria has an undemocratic regime.
  • Ukraine had a rather democratic regime, but can be considered a special case. The country is a rather instable nation, with previous regime changes. In this case we prefer presence of any (democratic) order over lack of any governance (unrest).
  • Crimea saw no genocide.


Who is to determine if a minority doesn't deserve its own state? Are you saying that the Scots and Basques don't get to make their own rules?


And another thing, you are hugely mistaken regarding Yugoslavia.
To shorten the wall of text which I could spew out as a reaction to what you've said, I'll just phrase it this way:

Yugoslavia was a federation, and the republics were partially sovereign but some republics had bigger influence in the federation and oppresed the others (very complicated).
In 1991 Yugoslavia fell apart and ceased to exist. Serbia tried to occupy as much territory with or without Serbs as a majority, and subsequently failed, with the war ending in 1995.
Genocide occured in Bosnia and Croatia, where Serbs cleansed the areas of other ethnicities and religions.
It culminated in 1995 but started out in as early as 1991.

In other words, new nations were NOT created because genocides occured, but because of their internationally recognized right to become independent. Genocide followed as part of the Serb plan to create the Greater Serbia, and not a general plan of all the republics in former Yugoslavia, since Slovenia experienced some 2 weeks of sporadic combat against the Serb-controlled Yugoslav Army, and Macedonia gained independece without a shot fired.

« Last Edit: 23-03-2014, 15:03:17 by PanzerKnacker »
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline MaJ.P.Bouras

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #258 on: 23-03-2014, 15:03:43 »
Macedonia was free since we liberated Thessaloniki from the turks in the first Balkan war.

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #259 on: 23-03-2014, 15:03:56 »
This is yugoslav business, keep your gyros out of here. Greece of irrelevant!
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline luftwaffe.be

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #260 on: 23-03-2014, 15:03:19 »
Quote
Iraq had an undemocratic regime.
Tunesia had an undemocratic regime.
Libya had an undemocratic regime.
Egypt had an undemocratic regime.
Syria has an undemocratic regime.
Ukraine had a rather democratic regime, but can be considered a special case. The country is a rather instable nation, with previous regime changes. In this case we prefer presence of any (democratic) order over lack of any governance (unrest).

Libya is currently controlled by undemocratic local warlords
Egypt is currently controlled by undemocratic army officials
Syria is under siege by international terrorists
Iraq is in effect a puppet state of the USA

The EU is recognising an undemocratic elected government in the Ukraine because it supports the interests of the EU rather then that of Russia. If it would have been the other way around, the actions would have been condemned, and sanctions would have been taken (look at the Crimea).

The west does have double standards, because it still thinks that the ways of the west are the best. Everything build around the idea's of international law and universal human rights are written from a western point of view. As such, they do not always "comprehend" the actions that are taken by non-western people. The west often remains closed-minded.

The actions taken by Russia where logical and predictable. One of the greatest accomplishments of the Russian territorial expansions could never be given to the lap of the EU without any effort to keep it. The Crimea is defacto Russian since the 18th century and home basis of the important black sea fleet. just giving that up because of a illegitimate coup would be rather foolish. Yes, trade might suffer, stocks might lose their value, but when the crisis fades away, cash will once more flow towards Moscou, and it will still have it's precious black sea fleet..       

Offline Turkish007

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #261 on: 23-03-2014, 15:03:45 »
Looks like Turkey just shot down a Syrian Mig-23. About 3 and a half hours ago.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #262 on: 23-03-2014, 17:03:27 »
luftwaffe, all of the results are known because we have the benefit of hindsight.

Also Crimea was given by Kruschev to Ukraine in 1954. He was quite crazy IMO, but my opinion is irrelevant. Historically, it has been Russia, and it has its own parliament since the beginning.

BTW, yeah, Macedonia the real one, the birth place of Alexander the Great, not F.Y.R.O. is indeed in Greece. The wannabes of ex-Yugoslavian states, well, I don't know, but let them be. With population under 1 million, let's see if they don't cry foul over being totally overpowered economically.

Independence doesn't come cheap. When some guy want to do business with the European countries, they need easy access and less bureaucratic hassle. OK, let's see if I want to import beers. Where do I start? Czech Republic? Ireland? Belgium? Denmark? the Netherlands? Germany? OK, then I also need machinery, and trucks, that will come from Finland and Sweden perhaps? But since Sweden here is stubbornly different and means more paperworks, Volvo and Scania need to work more in order to prove that the extra hassle their government imposed, worth the cost over DAF or MAN or Mercedes Trucks. Now to ship it here, the Greeks has the sea-faring fleet, contracted by the Danes. So there my money goes. Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Denmark, and Greece.

Good thing that Crimea elected to join another country instead of being stubbornly independent.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #263 on: 23-03-2014, 21:03:03 »
Libya is currently controlled by undemocratic local warlords
Egypt is currently controlled by undemocratic army officials
Syria is under siege by international terrorists
Iraq is in effect a puppet state of the USA
Libya - if you only count Cyrenaica - is currently controlled by undemocratic local warlords that at least have some sort of popular support, unlike our dear Colonel who did not need to bother himself with such trivialities. Let's forget that the western parts of the country have at least some sort of democratic and relatively stable regime, and let's forget that the civil war did not extend to years and years, causing hundreds of thousands of dead, unlike in, say, Syria.
Egypt is currently controlled by undemocratic army officials, after a brief period of being controlled by undemocratic Islamist extremists determined to turn it into Saudi Arabia as far as human rights are concerned. But of course, Iran under Shah and pre-Taliban Afghanistan were so much more terrible compared to the glorious FREEDOM that came afterwards.
Syria gets a free pass to commit genocide by conventional weapons (chemical weapons are bad, mmmkay, but anything else is A-OK!), because Obama made a strategic blunder and wouldn't stand up to the dictator's Russian friends. That Al-Qaeda hangarounds flock into any conflict that has Muslims as one of the parties is a given, but that could have been avoided if certain dictator had given up or had been ousted earlier.
The US influence in Iraq is by and large limited to the fortified embassy district nowadays. Militarily, they have no control (as is evident from the new government losing territory to Sunni militants & AQ, plus the new government's rather adventurous forays into the Syrian civil war on Assad's side). Politically, the US has very little relevance, and as for MUH PETRODOLLAR WARFARE oil drilling rights are mostly held by French and Russian companies - both countries that were protesting against the 2003 invasion rather loudly.

0/10, made me reply.

---

I find it hilarious that in the West there are many people to whom any kind of dictator - no matter how brutal - is a glorious freedom fighter and stalwart defender of his people against the international conspiracy of bankers and megacorporations, just as long as he has anti-Western agenda.

---

Democratic traditions, corruption-free administration, insert virtue of government here, do not mature overnight and will not - cannot - appear out of nowhere as soon as there is a change of regime. Every nation has to start to build those traditions from zero, if they have not had previous experience. Expecting a country to be a perfectly honest democracy with zero corruption a year, five years, or even a decade after the end of dictatorship is wishful thinking at best, ludicrous delusions at worst. But at least there is the possibility to develop towards those goals.

However, democracy will not necessarily result in tolerance and inviolate human rights if most of the voters are illiterate, uneducated, and as such, can be manipulated by religious or other extremists. There are actually people who sincerely believe that freedom of speech, equality, secularism, sexual freedom, minorities' rights, freedom of religion (especially freedom to abandon one's faith!), etc. are BAD. There is no easy solution to the dilemma how to advance both democracy AND human rights in such countries.

Offline Born2Kill 007

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #264 on: 24-03-2014, 15:03:19 »
there would now be evidence that MH370 crashed in the Southern Indian ocean
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26716572
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Offline THeTA0123

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #265 on: 24-03-2014, 15:03:16 »
So Theta lives in the Belgian Bradford?

No, the Belgian Bradford is either Borgerhout, or the Brussels Capital Region.
Beringen, wich is the borgerhout of Limburg :D
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Offline Slayer

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #266 on: 24-03-2014, 23:03:09 »
Ah, TheTA, now that you're back, maybe you can find some time to enlighten me:
I guess these fellows dont know how things have escalated in westren europe. Oh wait, i'm not allow to say that.
Huh? I don't get it. Which fellows don't know what exactly?

Offline Zoologic

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #267 on: 03-04-2014, 05:04:38 »
There is a shooting at US Army's Fort Hood base in Texas

3 April 2014 Last updated at 03:19
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26863033

It is sad to see these people suffer. They have sacrificed a lot of things to serve their country, getting shot at, and receive unequal amount of hate for what they done overseas. Yeah, everybody signed up knowing to obey whatever orders given. But not from incompetent foreign policy makers, right? And the saddest thing is that, they can't even find safety and security back at home.

Offline Dukat

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #268 on: 03-04-2014, 14:04:04 »
Maybe a couple of bucks of those annual 600 billion spend on defense should be spend on veterans and their mental problems after they have given their sanity for their country.

Curretly it seems to be capitalism at its best: Take it, use it, squeeze it, dispose when broken. Just that some of the waste is toxic, firing back at its environment after disposal.

I usually imagine my own sounds with it, like `tjunk, tupdieyupdiedee` aaa enemy spotted, ratatatataboom

Offline Zoologic

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Re: In the news...
« Reply #269 on: 03-04-2014, 15:04:27 »
They need to take long term rather than short term approach. It is exactly capitalism killing itself slowly.

Plus, why the American public are so overly sensitive about their military brass and seemingly worship them? The way they spent money for ludicrous projects like F-35 is mind blowing. Are the whole western civilization supposed to rely on that limited capability shit to defend their existence? It is now about to approach F-22's price tag. Why the hell not continue their production? Now that the brass decided to plug its wings to carry external weapons. You can now bomb a civilization back to stone age with that F-22 strike version. If they are citing maintenance bills, aren't F-35 supposed to have more newer parts? Also its stealthy features, does it need specially built hangar? Good luck on those fools committing themselves on the project. It is the ultimate budget sinkhole and Pentagon at its post-WW2, post-Cold war best.