Tanksystem Update

[Raziel]

Really happy to hear about this! I love how FH2 devs persist in eliminating problems from past releases! I sincerely hope that this update will attract back the huge player base this mod deserves! Great job once again   

[Musti]

IIRC damage drop modifier got changed some time ago as a part of this big tank fix. But I am not 100 percent sure about the corrent values so better wait for confirmation from a dev.

2.45 has damage drop from max at 10m to min at 300m.  Current internal version has the same damage but the min distance has been extended to 600m.

What's that in FH-maths? Lets say compared to pre 2.45 damage drop?

[Lightning]

What's that in FH-maths? Lets say compared to pre 2.45 damage drop?

distToMinDamage has been 300m since 2.4 (and was 400m before that).

The primary 2.4 - 2.45 difference is in the linearisation of damage modifiers. In 2.4 they followed an exponential curve, in 2.45 it's more linear.

For example, the damage modifier against an 80mm plate (Sherman front hull) (2.4 / 2.45)
75mmL40-APCBC: 1.5 / 3.75
75mmL43-AP: 4.5 / 5.25
75mmL48-AP: 7.75 / 6.75
88mmL56-AP: 11.31 / 8.25
75mmL70-AP: 15.26 / 9.75
90mmL50-AP: 19.69 / 11.25
17pdr-AP: 24.7 / 12.75
...
88mmL71-AP: 52.29 / 18.75

So, in 2.4, guns got exponentially more powerful against a certain armour thickness. In 2.45 it is linear. As you can see, in 2.4 the Tiger II did 4.6 times as much damage as the Tiger I. In 2.45 only 1.5 times as much. This does mean that compared to 2.4 the Tiger II does 2.8 times less damage in 2.45.


These values are unchanged from their 2.45 values in the latest beta.





Vehicle damage is very complicated in Forgotten Hope 2. To calculate how much relative damage your shot does you need to know:
1. Base damage of your gun (each projectile has its own base and minimum damage)
2. Distance modifier (damage decreases over distance, this is linear from base to min damage, min damage is generally 40% of base damage)
3. Material of your projectile and of your target (each projectile interacts differently with each material, this table contains the damage modifiers)
4. Anglemod (this checks the angle of impact and reduces the damage accordingly, from full damage at 90 degrees, to no damage at 0 degrees)
5. Hitpoints (each vehicle has its own unique amount of hitpoints, so hitting the 80mm side of a Tiger II does the same absolute amount of damage as hitting the 80mm front of a Sherman, but because the Tiger II has 2000 hitpoint and the Sherman 1000, the relative damage is twice as low)


To get something that feels right, you need to tweak these all these factors against eachother. With near 100 tanks (just tanks, not other vehicles), roughly 20 materials for armour (only counting regular unspaced, unskirted armour) and 74 materials, base damage and minimum damage for projectiles (not counting HE projectiles), this is ridiculously complex.

[Matthew_Baker]

...this is ridiculously complex.

  wow I never realized how complex the FH2 tank damage system was.

[Musti]

Welp, I didn't expect that kind of answer . Thanks! not sure where this is going exactly, but whatevs, I trust zhe devs.

[Slayer]

...I trust zhe devs.

Always a good thing

[TASSER]

Lightning's sweet post.

Thanks so much for spelling it out Lightning, there's so many variables! You guys have done a tremendous job with tanking in FH2. I loved it in 2.4 (where I did most of my regular playing) and I love it in 2.45 as well. I really have no complaints at all and look forward to the next generation of the mod!

[Surfbird]

I'm 100% for reintroducing sprintbar....

Tottaly agree.

Bringing the sprintbar again would be a huge improvement for infantry combat.

I feel the same way.

Would make the infantry movement a bit more thought through again.

[DaWorg!]

Only thing i'd like to see changed regarding tanks vs. infantry is return to pre-2.4 HE shells. At least i think it was 2.4 when their splash damage was nerfed.

[Leibermuster]

When I saw the thread title, I couldn't believe my eyes 

Easily the BEST news this year! I want to say a HUGE Thank You! to the devs who made this possible.

Will be spreading the word to some fellow FH'ers who I know stopped playing the mod after 2.45. This much needed and APPRECIATED fix, along with the new content, will make 2.5 epic 

Once again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!   

[LuckyOne]

Once again, as much as I appreciate all of this work, I feel the biggest problem of 2.45 was the damage over distance modifier, and that collision meshes didn't need everything stripped down... It added a bit of skill with aiming into the flat parts of tanks for best damage... All the stuff on it acted like in real life, as a random modifier when a shell hit. However sometimes it was ridiculous, such as the case of shovels stopping 88 shells.

For example, in the pic of the Pz IV posted, I don't really think that the metal parts such as vision slits, hatches or spare wheels needed to go, as those could deflect a shell IRL too.

The shovels, wrenches, crates and fuel cans on the other hand did, as their influence on wether the shells bounced would cerainly be minor.

Let's hope this streamlining won't make tank combat a boring "point and click adventure game" again... But let's wait and see, I have no doubts the devs know what's best for the mod...

[Musti]

Let's hope this streamlining won't make tank combat a boring "point and click adventure game" again... But let's wait and see, I have no doubts the devs know what's best for the mod...

Let's hope it does, cause thats what it was when it was the best.

[kingtiger1891]

Once again, as much as I appreciate all of this work, I feel the biggest problem of 2.45 was the damage over distance modifier, and that collision meshes didn't need everything stripped down...

I kinda feel the same here. What was changed from 2.4 to 2.45 is the damage modifier and therefore the problem comes from the damage modifier. I just hope the devs would drop the "tank fight should last longer" obssession which turns FH to vanilla BF style.

[LuckyOne]

I just hope the devs would drop the "tank fight should last longer" obssession which turns FH to vanilla BF style.

As much as we would like to emulate real life where mostly 1 penetration was enough for the crew to think "f*** this" and GTFO, we can't (actually I think the average for Shermans for example was 1.27 or 1.4 or sth like that, as I read in one analysis)... For the simple reason that the maps are scaled down, the numbers involved are even more scaled down and the tank fights have to be scaled down too... Meaning sometimes one hit should not be enough, because we can't have a real battle of Prokhorovka where over 500 (number is of course, debatable, but still) Soviet tanks were destroyed or damaged. There isn't enough time, tickets or tanks to emulate this. That's why damage sometimes simply needs to be scaled down a bit... But 2.45 went over the top as we had tanks at a range of 30 m shooting at each other for a few minutes until one of them finally went up in a fireball, even with hits to sides and all other kinds of "weaker" spots.

[Slayer]

What was changed from 2.4 to 2.45 is the damage modifier and therefore the problem comes from the damage modifier.

Logical as it sounds, it is not 100% true.
1) Damage over range modifier wasn't the only change, and
2) when changes are made, sometimes other, unwanted, changes are made too.

For some weird reason, all colmeshes got f***ed up in the last patch. Nobody noticed, so everyone blamed the anglemod. Since it turned out not to be the anglemod, people were looking for other reasons why tank combat "was broken". So the next victim became damage over range modifier.

Believe me, if it was that simple, it would be fixed in a jiffy. Alas, it is not. My guess is that it is the sum of several things: colmeshes being the most important of them. Now that they got fixed, we are checking to see if it is working like intended. So far it is looking good, but there are still other aspects which need (some) work.