Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Announcements => Developer Blogs => Topic started by: Ts4EVER on 30-10-2013, 20:10:01
-
Tank collisionmesh update
For the next version of FH2, we have gone back and changed the collisionmesh of every tank in the mod. As you can imagine, with almost one hundred tanks and tank destroyers, not including multiple variants or other vehicles, it was quite some work to rework this system. However, we really wanted to do this in order to get the best tank experience possible on the Battlefield 2 engine.
What was the problem in 2.45?
Many shots bounced off, usually from large distances, but also Panzerfausts bounced off of the rearside of Shermans in close quarters. That is not OK. That is why we went in and fixed the collisionmeshes of all tanks in FH2.
Now, you may ask yourself: what is a collisionmesh?
I will try to explain: A tank is built up from a bunch of different '3d models' or in BF2, 'meshes'.
1. You have the visible mesh. Which is the textured one that you see in the game. You also have LOD's, or level of details models, which basically are lower res models which you see on range. Of course you also have the wreck mesh that shows when a tank has been killed. But this article will focus mainly on col0. Anyways, here follows some examples:
Picture of the visible mesh of a Panzer IV Ausf. D:
(http://i.imgur.com/8zNKPkC.png)
2. You then have 3 collisionmeshes. These are the meshes which actually interact with the game world; be it with terrain, soldiers or projectiles. They are split up into the following models (in reversed order to fit the article better):
Collisionmesh2 or 'col2', in Battlefield 2 called the 'soldier mesh'. This is a simple mesh of the basic shape of the vehicle, and it affects the way soldiers interact with the tank.
Picture of the col2:
(http://i.imgur.com/9Fr2rF9.png)
Collisionmesh1 or 'col1', in Battlefield 2 called the 'physical mesh'. This is a very simple mesh around the shape of the vehicle, and it affects the way other vehicles interact with the tank.
Picture of the col1:
(http://i.imgur.com/C3du0qj.png)
Collisionmesh0 or 'col0', in Battlefield 2 called the 'decal mesh'. This mesh interacts with 2 things in the game world.
First it is the mesh on which different 'decals' are drawn. Decals are small images which reflect for example different projectiles hitting the vehicle.
Example picture of decal painted on the decalmesh 'col0':
(http://i.imgur.com/elNcZox.png)
Secondly, and more importantly, it is the mesh which handles how all projectiles will interact with the vehicle. This is the mesh we use to decide which parts of the tank have which armour thickness etc.
This col0 mesh is the one we have changed for all tanks for the next FH2 version. Previously, before we figured out how to work with the now included anglemod system (which has been explained elsewhere, but basically works in the way that if you hit a surface at a high enough angle, it will deflect and do reduced damage. This allows for more realistic tank battles. In the days before anglemod, you could for example kill the panther easily with even a low caliber gun if even only a small part of the panther side or top armour where exposed.)
Quick picture explaining the anglemod:
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/96/fa63.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/fa63.png/)
The problem was that all our 'col0' were not optimized for anglemod. Rather they were optimized to draw the decals on the right place. The meshes where full of tools, wheels, headlights etc. that would cause a lot of weird deflections from all kinds of angles. Also, since the vehicles of FH2 have been exported by a handful of different people, we also had small differences in how these meshes were made, which even further added to the inconsistency of the tanking system.
Now with the new, simplified and improved collisionmeshes, (almost) all of these weird angles and extras have been removed. Everything is now more consistent. And it also happens to be a lot more similar to how World Of Tanks does it.
Picture of col0 before and after changes:
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/545/f2oz.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/f2oz.png/)
So, is tankcombat fixed now?
YES!! The col0 as described above is now correctly made for all tanks ingame, so the amount of weird shots will diminish in the next version of FH2. Sure, from time to time you will see a shot go wildly in a direction you didn't expect, but it will be a lot less common as in 2.45, and keep in mind that in reality these weird shots existed too.
We are confident that this, together with other adjustments we have made since Fh2 2.45, will improve the tanking experience even further.
- Stubbfan
-
Now this is great news!
-
Well, this is the update which I was waiting for (I think others too)! I also hope it will be working. Will this changes also affect such vehicles like planes, halftracks, trucks, jeeps?
-
Fantastic news!
Well done!
-
Thank you to all developers and testers. :)
-
Well, this is the update which I was waiting for (I think others too)! I also hope it will be working. Will this changes also affect such vehicles like planes, halftracks, trucks, jeeps?
All these vehicles now have anglemod system disabled.
-
Very excited about this.
If it's as good as it sounds it could draw quite a number of old players back I think.
-
Well, this is the update which I was waiting for (I think others too)! I also hope it will be working. Will this changes also affect such vehicles like planes, halftracks, trucks, jeeps?
All these vehicles now have anglemod system disabled.
That's cool! :)
-
but
but
but
my super bouncy hanomag
-
I hope this hantomag will go into pieces after my 88 HE shot! :D
-
This change is so big that it deserves full scale news update. I'm afraid it won't get enough attention here. We should communicate this to all FH2 fans, those who don't use or stopped visiting this forum too! ;)
-
This is very important news! It requires shittons of work but should also have a huge impact on the tank gameplay- thanks to whoever did this!
-
AAaaaaaaaaawwww yeeeeeeaaaaaaaahh! Now THATS what I call great news! I can't wait for 2.5 now.
-
So basically we're back to the "consistent" tanking of 2.4? Shame, the added randomness was fun sometimes (and sometimes utterly frustrating). :P
Anyway, a huge task well done! I'm sure 2.5 will be much more enjoyable for tanker boys!
-
Great news and work devs, very impressed that you keep working at this mod. 8)
Still sad news that the bicycle is going to get fixed... ;)
-
I feel in me feathers that 2.5 is coming soon.
This of course is just the tip of a very large iceberg that the 'FH2 Titanic' is about to crash into.
I love this quote. Are we still at the tip? ;D
-
You guys are great
-
Great work stubby!
-
This is really good news, i feel this will make the game ten times better. Especially since the damn chat bar wont be full of people bitching about the angle mod lol course im sure theyll find something else. ::)
-
Wow, just wow. Words really can't describe how impressed I am with the devs. Putting this much work and effort into something so relatively small (imo).
Dealing with the super crashy BF2 editor myself really gives me a huge appreciation for this. Literally remodeling HUNDREDS of vehicles, I can't even imagine.
I'm assuming this is mostly stubbfans work? Either way a big thank you to him and everyone else that put work into this ;D amazing dedication
EDIT: would this also theoretically save on memory usage too? In that last pic it looks as if the decal mesh has been significantly reduced in the number of polygons, which leads me to assume that it will render faster than the old one did?
-
Best news of 2013 yet.
Not to mention 3rd update of October, got a feeling that 2.5 isn't that far away.
-
(http://data.whicdn.com/images/11372029/600-awww-yeah-guy_thumb.jpg)
-
wow, this update gonna be huge, huh 8)
-
Nice to see a devblog about this because it is well worth it.
Basicly 200 different vehicles got fixed and tested, also with the different projectiles firing at them from all kind of different guns and weapons you can imagine in this mod. Was a shitload of work, but a nice team effort of the devs and testers. And a big thank you goes to Stubbfan especialy who took the mammoth task to fix all the meshes.
I am very satisfied with the result allready and I think that means something, considering I was a big opponent of 2.45 tanking system.
-
Huge, huge thank you Stubbfan and team. You guys truly are incredible. Can't wait to play 2.5!
-
Good to hear my Kubelwagen wont bounce off an 88 round any more.
-
Now where's Butcher when you need him? ;D
Great update! Be gone with the freak bounces and impossible penetrations, I say!!
-
Great update!
-
This change is so big that it deserves full scale news update. I'm afraid it won't get enough attention here. We should communicate this to all FH2 fans, those who don't use or stopped visiting this forum too! ;)
Hey Jan, how long have you been playing FH? I remember you joined FH2 forums like 2 years ago or so, and you went up very quickly and are now a Beta tester.
-
Great work! Thx! ;D
-
Great News, great work! Thanks!
But.....PUT IT ON THE FH2-MAINPAGE!!!! It's absolutely worth it!!!!
-
AWESOME!!!
Cant wait until... Well when it comes its going to be epic !
-
EDIT: would this also theoretically save on memory usage too? In that last pic it looks as if the decal mesh has been significantly reduced in the number of polygons, which leads me to assume that it will render faster than the old one did?
Yes it will improve, and for all things the Server performance.
-
EDIT: would this also theoretically save on memory usage too? In that last pic it looks as if the decal mesh has been significantly reduced in the number of polygons, which leads me to assume that it will render faster than the old one did?
Yes it will improve, and for all things the Server performance.
Fan-fu%)#-tastic!
8)
-
Very excited about this.
If it's as good as it sounds it could draw quite a number of old players back I think.
I believe so. At least i'm coming back with tanking fixed. (yeah i know i'm not old timer celebrity ;D)
[This change is so big that it deserves full scale news update. I'm afraid it won't get enough attention here. We should communicate this to all FH2 fans, those who don't use or stopped visiting this forum too! ;)
Good idea. Everyone needs to know this!
-
Cool, Thanks for the good News
-
Good to hear that, hopefully this can really fix tank system and bring back a lot of old timers (including myself) ;)
Btw, what about the fix for distance modifier? Does the damage over distance still drop drastically?
-
IIRC damage drop modifier got changed some time ago as a part of this big tank fix. But I am not 100 percent sure about the corrent values so better wait for confirmation from a dev. Fact is and the many tests have shown this: it will matter how you position your tank again, as a shot into the side will kill you, also over far distance, though a shot to the front will keep you stay alive - depending on the armor, distance and the enemy weapon ofcourse. The times are over, when you could drive your Sherman completely careless over the open field, as even a tiny little Marder will be able to kill you with the first shot from an ambush and quite a long distance.
-
You can actually see us bury the Super Sherman here
(http://sixgun.org/files/inflatable-tank.jpg)
-
Superb, there really isn't much more to add. :)
-
You can actually see us bury the Super Sherman here
(http://sixgun.org/files/inflatable-tank.jpg)
Aswel as the King tiger super side armour wich soaks up 2 90mm shells at close range??? Dont forget to bury that aswel!
-
BEST UPDATE EVER! CAPSLOCK TIME!
No more Shermans deflecting 75mm rounds, hell yeah!
This will drastically increase my FH2 playtime again.
Edit:Now where's Butcher when you need him? ;D
Great update! Be gone with the freak bounces and impossible penetrations, I say!!
Hi, I´m happy.
So basically it´s like the 2.4 tank system without crazy top-shots?
-
As long as that means moar one-shot kills, I'm happy :D
-
The whole "battle communication" shit is finally gone. Nothing was worse than being super sure about your hits and let it all be handled by a system that's completely random. This was one of the things that really put me off from FH2 because tanking and tank hunting was what I enjoyed doing since I have always been and will always remain crap-extraordinaire at infantry combat. Now I might actually get back to it.
-
I want to test this new system myself, I don't want to celebrate too soon ;)
-
The whole "battle communication" shit is finally gone. Nothing was worse than being super sure about your hits and let it all be handled by a system that's completely random. This was one of the things that really put me off from FH2 because tanking and tank hunting was what I enjoyed doing since I have always been and will always remain crap-extraordinaire at infantry combat. Now I might actually get back to it.
As log as we don't go back to the "tanks made out of paper" situation like in pre 2.4 I'm fine with it. Maybe infantry will need some kind of (slight) nerf, since they had their (in)visibility buffed with the new shaders and also effectiveness buffed by unlimited sprint time (or some maps will need to be a bit rebalanced regarding availability of AT kits). I guess time will tell.
On the other hand wrench has no cooldown anymore, so an effective tanker crew can still put up a fight (but those are hard to find) :P
So since we're already at "fixing old things" when will we get suppression fixed? I'd love to see some actual firefights instead of the old lazer-insta-gib-Unreal-Tournament Fest (although, to be fair, things did improve with the latest addition of graphical sway, at least on longer ranges)... :P
-
You want to nerf infantry? Really? I am a tank whore too, but I can tell you that tankers are alot more safe than infantry in this game.
-
You want to nerf infantry? Really? I am a tank whore too, but I can tell you that tankers are alot more safe than infantry in this game.
I only said it "might" need a nerf, but really it depends on how the actual angle mod will work in the next version. And this is coming from an infantry guy, not a tanker whore.
-
Maybe infantry will need some kind of (slight) nerf, since they had their (in)visibility buffed with the new shaders and also effectiveness buffed by unlimited sprint time (or some maps will need to be a bit rebalanced regarding availability of AT kits).
I'm 100% for reintroducing sprintbar, but what do you mean by visibility being buffed by new shaders? And on most maps AT kits are lacking instead of in abundance (St Vith, Cobra, PeB), so I think that can stay the same.
-
I'm 100% for reintroducing sprintbar, but what do you mean by visibility being buffed by new shaders? And on most maps AT kits are lacking instead of in abundance (St Vith, Cobra, PeB), so I think that can stay the same.
The "vignette" effect, although not everyone can see it (or has it disabled on purpose) made it possible for infantry to camouflage and hide better.
-
So basically it´s like the 2.4 tank system without crazy top-shots?
2.4 had anglemod enabled as well.
So basically we're back to the "consistent" tanking of 2.4?
Tank collision meshes in 2.4 and 2.45 are the same. If there is a significant difference in consistency between 2.4 and 2.45 it is therefore unlikely to be due to collision meshes. There is probably a difference due to the larger range dependency in 2.45 and the introduction of laggier 128 player servers, but those factors are still present. Though I believe the distance dependency may have been tweaked. Nevertheless, collision meshes were a disaster and I'm sure they were responsible for a large amount of strange effects and Stubbfan has done an awesome job in fixing them all.
-
I'm 100% for reintroducing sprintbar....
Tottaly agree.
Bringing the sprintbar again would be a huge improvement for infantry combat.
-
Bringing the sprintbar again would be a huge improvement for infantry combat.
Is it possible to reduce stamina loss for jumping, while still keeping a (reasonably) big sprint bar? The current situation is good because there are a lot of maps with many small obstacles and random debris that you need to jump over because of funkiness of bf2. But unlimited sprint makes everything seem like a big rush...
-
I thought "everything" here was a big rush!
-
I don't see any reason to introduce the sprint bar, You could run halfway through a desert with it anyway, and it was incredibly annoying when you had to jump over something.
-
You could run halfway through a desert with it anyway
Eeeh, no. I see what you mean, but at least it was better than what we have now.
and it was incredibly annoying when you had to jump over something.
That I agree with, if it could be fixed, then please, yes. On the other hand: unlimited jumping is bad, so a middle way should be found (ie, start losing stamina when you jump more than 3 times in a few secs).
-
Hey Jan, how long have you been playing FH? I remember you joined FH2 forums like 2 years ago or so, and you went up very quickly and are now a Beta tester.
To be honest I don't rember how long have I been playing this game but I played FH1 before (under several different nick names) and eventually moved to FH2 only, somewhere in 2.2 times. I registered more than 3 years ago as jan_kurator but I was following FH forum a long time before. When it comes to being beta tester I was trying to apply from june 2011 but in those day testing server was still full and I wasn't really needed before 2.4 release. I joined beta team somewhere in november 2011 so I'm a tester for two years now.
-
I'm 100% for reintroducing sprintbar....
Tottaly agree.
Bringing the sprintbar again would be a huge improvement for infantry combat.
The spirntbar was one of the most annoying things in this game, good it was removed!!!
-
Different opinions from different players. ;)
-
IIRC damage drop modifier got changed some time ago as a part of this big tank fix. But I am not 100 percent sure about the corrent values so better wait for confirmation from a dev.
2.45 has damage drop from max at 10m to min at 300m. Current internal version has the same damage but the min distance has been extended to 600m.
-
Really happy to hear about this! I love how FH2 devs persist in eliminating problems from past releases! I sincerely hope that this update will attract back the huge player base this mod deserves! Great job once again :)
-
IIRC damage drop modifier got changed some time ago as a part of this big tank fix. But I am not 100 percent sure about the corrent values so better wait for confirmation from a dev.
2.45 has damage drop from max at 10m to min at 300m. Current internal version has the same damage but the min distance has been extended to 600m.
What's that in FH-maths? Lets say compared to pre 2.45 damage drop?
-
What's that in FH-maths? Lets say compared to pre 2.45 damage drop?
distToMinDamage has been 300m since 2.4 (and was 400m before that).
The primary 2.4 - 2.45 difference is in the linearisation of damage modifiers. In 2.4 they followed an exponential curve, in 2.45 it's more linear.
For example, the damage modifier against an 80mm plate (Sherman front hull) (2.4 / 2.45)
75mmL40-APCBC: 1.5 / 3.75
75mmL43-AP: 4.5 / 5.25
75mmL48-AP: 7.75 / 6.75
88mmL56-AP: 11.31 / 8.25
75mmL70-AP: 15.26 / 9.75
90mmL50-AP: 19.69 / 11.25
17pdr-AP: 24.7 / 12.75
...
88mmL71-AP: 52.29 / 18.75
So, in 2.4, guns got exponentially more powerful against a certain armour thickness. In 2.45 it is linear. As you can see, in 2.4 the Tiger II did 4.6 times as much damage as the Tiger I. In 2.45 only 1.5 times as much. This does mean that compared to 2.4 the Tiger II does 2.8 times less damage in 2.45.
These values are unchanged from their 2.45 values in the latest beta.
Vehicle damage is very complicated in Forgotten Hope 2. To calculate how much relative damage your shot does you need to know:
1. Base damage of your gun (each projectile has its own base and minimum damage)
2. Distance modifier (damage decreases over distance, this is linear from base to min damage, min damage is generally 40% of base damage)
3. Material of your projectile and of your target (each projectile interacts differently with each material, this table contains the damage modifiers)
4. Anglemod (this checks the angle of impact and reduces the damage accordingly, from full damage at 90 degrees, to no damage at 0 degrees)
5. Hitpoints (each vehicle has its own unique amount of hitpoints, so hitting the 80mm side of a Tiger II does the same absolute amount of damage as hitting the 80mm front of a Sherman, but because the Tiger II has 2000 hitpoint and the Sherman 1000, the relative damage is twice as low)
To get something that feels right, you need to tweak these all these factors against eachother. With near 100 tanks (just tanks, not other vehicles), roughly 20 materials for armour (only counting regular unspaced, unskirted armour) and 74 materials, base damage and minimum damage for projectiles (not counting HE projectiles), this is ridiculously complex.
-
...this is ridiculously complex.
:o wow I never realized how complex the FH2 tank damage system was.
-
Welp, I didn't expect that kind of answer :D. Thanks! not sure where this is going exactly, but whatevs, I trust zhe devs.
-
...I trust zhe devs.
Always a good thing ;)
-
Lightning's sweet post.
Thanks so much for spelling it out Lightning, there's so many variables! You guys have done a tremendous job with tanking in FH2. I loved it in 2.4 (where I did most of my regular playing) and I love it in 2.45 as well. I really have no complaints at all and look forward to the next generation of the mod!
-
I'm 100% for reintroducing sprintbar....
Tottaly agree.
Bringing the sprintbar again would be a huge improvement for infantry combat.
I feel the same way.
Would make the infantry movement a bit more thought through again.
-
Only thing i'd like to see changed regarding tanks vs. infantry is return to pre-2.4 HE shells. At least i think it was 2.4 when their splash damage was nerfed.
-
When I saw the thread title, I couldn't believe my eyes :o
Easily the BEST news this year! I want to say a HUGE Thank You! to the devs who made this possible.
Will be spreading the word to some fellow FH'ers who I know stopped playing the mod after 2.45. This much needed and APPRECIATED fix, along with the new content, will make 2.5 epic :D
Once again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! ;D ;)
-
Once again, as much as I appreciate all of this work, I feel the biggest problem of 2.45 was the damage over distance modifier, and that collision meshes didn't need everything stripped down... It added a bit of skill with aiming into the flat parts of tanks for best damage... All the stuff on it acted like in real life, as a random modifier when a shell hit. However sometimes it was ridiculous, such as the case of shovels stopping 88 shells.
For example, in the pic of the Pz IV posted, I don't really think that the metal parts such as vision slits, hatches or spare wheels needed to go, as those could deflect a shell IRL too.
The shovels, wrenches, crates and fuel cans on the other hand did, as their influence on wether the shells bounced would cerainly be minor.
Let's hope this streamlining won't make tank combat a boring "point and click adventure game" again... But let's wait and see, I have no doubts the devs know what's best for the mod...
-
Let's hope this streamlining won't make tank combat a boring "point and click adventure game" again... But let's wait and see, I have no doubts the devs know what's best for the mod...
Let's hope it does, cause thats what it was when it was the best.
-
Once again, as much as I appreciate all of this work, I feel the biggest problem of 2.45 was the damage over distance modifier, and that collision meshes didn't need everything stripped down...
I kinda feel the same here. What was changed from 2.4 to 2.45 is the damage modifier and therefore the problem comes from the damage modifier. I just hope the devs would drop the "tank fight should last longer" obssession which turns FH to vanilla BF style.
-
I just hope the devs would drop the "tank fight should last longer" obssession which turns FH to vanilla BF style.
As much as we would like to emulate real life where mostly 1 penetration was enough for the crew to think "f*** this" and GTFO, we can't (actually I think the average for Shermans for example was 1.27 or 1.4 or sth like that, as I read in one analysis)... For the simple reason that the maps are scaled down, the numbers involved are even more scaled down and the tank fights have to be scaled down too... Meaning sometimes one hit should not be enough, because we can't have a real battle of Prokhorovka where over 500 (number is of course, debatable, but still) Soviet tanks were destroyed or damaged. There isn't enough time, tickets or tanks to emulate this. That's why damage sometimes simply needs to be scaled down a bit... But 2.45 went over the top as we had tanks at a range of 30 m shooting at each other for a few minutes until one of them finally went up in a fireball, even with hits to sides and all other kinds of "weaker" spots.
-
What was changed from 2.4 to 2.45 is the damage modifier and therefore the problem comes from the damage modifier.
Logical as it sounds, it is not 100% true.
1) Damage over range modifier wasn't the only change, and
2) when changes are made, sometimes other, unwanted, changes are made too.
For some weird reason, all colmeshes got f***ed up in the last patch. Nobody noticed, so everyone blamed the anglemod. Since it turned out not to be the anglemod, people were looking for other reasons why tank combat "was broken". So the next victim became damage over range modifier.
Believe me, if it was that simple, it would be fixed in a jiffy. Alas, it is not. My guess is that it is the sum of several things: colmeshes being the most important of them. Now that they got fixed, we are checking to see if it is working like intended. So far it is looking good, but there are still other aspects which need (some) work.
-
Logical as it sounds, it is not 100% true.
1) Damage over range modifier wasn't the only change
It's the material damage modifier that was radically changed, not the damage over range modifier, that wasn't changed at all. Of course many other factors are involved, but the material damage modifier is by far the biggest change.
For some weird reason, all colmeshes got f***ed up in the last patch.
How did you arrive at that conclusion? As far as I know you can only change collision meshes by re-exporting the object and that certainly did not happen to all vehicles. Maybe collision detection got screwed by the changes to projectile ricochets and projectile tracers, but as far as I know those have been reverted in the latest beta. That may account for the random behaviour, but it does not affect the damage model when it functions normally.
-
Logical as it sounds, it is not 100% true.
1) Damage over range modifier wasn't the only change
It's the material damage modifier that was radically changed, not the damage over range modifier, that wasn't changed at all. Of course many other factors are involved, but the material damage modifier is by far the biggest change.
OK, I thought damage over range was changed as well. So the point I was making (don't just blame the damage over range modifier) was actually a bit modest ;)
For some weird reason, all colmeshes got f***ed up in the last patch.
How did you arrive at that conclusion? As far as I know you can only change collision meshes by re-exporting the object and that certainly did not happen to all vehicles. Maybe collision detection got screwed by the changes to projectile ricochets and projectile tracers, but as far as I know those have been reverted in the latest beta. That may account for the random behaviour, but it does not affect the damage model when it functions normally.
I was talking about the col0 as described in this thread, but I called it "all colmeshes". Thanks for specifying.
-
Just to clarify. col0's have been bad since forever.
-
- Can a Panther now 1s1k a Sherman close to the fog of war now, or not?
- Has the Hetzer been updated also? I remember it having some weird armor problems aswell. Getting constantly defeated frontally by 75mms and 6 pounders.
-
- Can a Panther now 1s1k a Sherman close to the fog of war now, or not?
yes
- Has the Hetzer been updated also? I remember it having some weird armor problems aswell. Getting constantly defeated frontally by 75mms and 6 pounders.
upper frontal armor of Hetzer bounces 57 and 75mms, now
-
- Can a Panther now 1s1k a Sherman close to the fog of war now, or not?
PzV: 75mmL70; mat 330, damage 125, mindamage 49.
M4A1 mid: 1000 hp, front 80mm mat 130, side 60mm mat 128
Damagemod 330 130: 9.75
Damagemod 330 128: 12.75
Damage at 0m: 1219 hp to front, 1594 hp to side.
Damage at 300m: 848 hp to front, 1109 hp to side.
Damage at 600m: 478 hp to front, 625 hp to side.
It depends on how far the fog is. On small maps like Lüttich (170m) you probably will kill a Sherman in one shot, on a map like Totalize (650m) you will definitely not.
Of course, this assumes you have a perfect angle on your shot. Anglemod will decrease the damage further if you don't.
- Has the Hetzer been updated also?
Yes.
-
A shot from the front was actually the least likely chance of any tank being destroyed in the first shot
One from the side however...with all that ammo and fuel tanks
-
PzV: 75mmL70; mat 330, damage 125, mindamage 49.
M4A1 mid: 1000 hp, front 80mm mat 130, side 60mm mat 128
Damagemod 330 130: 9.75
Damagemod 330 128: 12.75
Damage at 0m: 1219 hp to front, 1594 hp to side.
Damage at 300m: 848 hp to front, 1109 hp to side.
Damage at 600m: 478 hp to front, 625 hp to side.
Am I to understand that Sherman would 100% survive one panther side hit beyond a bit more than 300m? And this is the basic M4A1, which means the A3, A4 would be more resistent.
-
Am I to understand that Sherman would 100% survive one panther side hit beyond a bit more than 300m? And this is the basic M4A1, which means the A3, A4 would be more resistent.
I don't know the numbers but I've just tested Panther G vs. some Sherman variants and none of the shermans (except Jumbo) survived frontal panther hit from about 200-300m when at the same time there is no sherman which could penetrate panther frontally (maybe 105mm HEAT can, I haven't tested that one)
-
PzV: 75mmL70; mat 330, damage 125, mindamage 49.
M4A1 mid: 1000 hp, front 80mm mat 130, side 60mm mat 128
Damagemod 330 130: 9.75
Damagemod 330 128: 12.75
Damage at 0m: 1219 hp to front, 1594 hp to side.
Damage at 300m: 848 hp to front, 1109 hp to side.
Damage at 600m: 478 hp to front, 625 hp to side.
Am I to understand that Sherman would 100% survive one panther side hit beyond a bit more than 300m? And this is the basic M4A1, which means the A3, A4 would be more resistent.
I think the margin where you can 1S1K the Sherman to it's side armor is somewhere at 400m or a bit more. That is atleast the distance that we effectivly tested for all suitable german tanks as too many other aspects come into play on longer distances. And that is the case for all Sherman versions except the Jumbo. Don't underestimate that. Good example is the distance between the big bridge and the Farmhouse on Operation Cobra. You will likely be able to kill most tanks with one shot to the side, maximum two, even at that distance when they come out of the cover. And that's quite realistic from my POV. I think most Normandy or Bulge maps don't even allow well aimed shots beyond 500m because of the terrain and the fog distance.
All I can say, is that you will have to be careful again while driving a Sherman and it will matter alot how you bring your tank in position. And not only that. So much stuff got fixed and tweaked on the tanks, that it will take some time to get used to it again. From my perspective, the Hetzer is defenetly the biggest winner.
-
I wonder if all this rounds flying randomness and drop will be fixed. This problem especially affects German tanks. For example driving Jagdpanzer is a nightmare... ::)
-
I think the margin where you can 1S1K the Sherman to it's side armor is somewhere at 400m or a bit more.
400m can be called long distance but I'm sure I did shots longer than that from time to time, since it's just 2/3 the fog distance in some maps. And considering the panther gun vs sherman side is a very extreme case (IRL 124mm@500m versus 38-45mm sherman side), I do think the new settings are still conservative, maybe the minimum damage should be enhanced.
-
400m can be called long distance but I'm sure I did shots longer than that from time to time, since it's just 2/3 the fog distance in some maps. And considering the panther gun vs sherman side is a very extreme case (IRL 124mm@500m versus 38-45mm sherman side), I do think the new settings are still conservative, maybe the minimum damage should be enhanced.
Like I said, scaled battles, scaled damage. With that in mind it seems like a good balance. Let's see how it will play out first...
-
Indeed. It is scaled down. Lets see how it plays and then you can judge. I have to admit too that it is still a bit conservative from my POV and we had long discussions about certain aspects, but the overall idea is, that not every tank blew up with the first shot in WWII. That is Hollywood like and not what we are after, or are we? You will blow up everything that comes closer then 400m with a shot to the side wich is a big change compared to the current state of the game. Please keep that in mind. If I tell you, that it is an overall improvement you can trust me on that.
Fact is, that the tanking should be much more balanced now considering the RL counterparts of those assets. You can make an ambush with the tank destroyers and get reasonable results. The Panther will still be badass and a real challenge and you will need alot of manpower and teamwork to kill one. The Jagdpanzer IV sights are fixed as far as I know, but I have to take a look once more and recheck.
Edit: Just checked the Jagdpanzer IV and it is fixed and fires like a laser cannon ;D
-
I just hope the devs would drop the "tank fight should last longer" obssession which turns FH to vanilla BF style.
As much as we would like to emulate real life where mostly 1 penetration was enough for the crew to think "f*** this" and GTFO, we can't (actually I think the average for Shermans for example was 1.27 or 1.4 or sth like that, as I read in one analysis)... For the simple reason that the maps are scaled down, the numbers involved are even more scaled down and the tank fights have to be scaled down too... Meaning sometimes one hit should not be enough, because we can't have a real battle of Prokhorovka where over 500 (number is of course, debatable, but still) Soviet tanks were destroyed or damaged. There isn't enough time, tickets or tanks to emulate this. That's why damage sometimes simply needs to be scaled down a bit... But 2.45 went over the top as we had tanks at a range of 30 m shooting at each other for a few minutes until one of them finally went up in a fireball, even with hits to sides and all other kinds of "weaker" spots.
I don't think that tank fights need to be scaled down to last longer. It was fun when they didn't. Besides, what about poor AT gunners? Tanks might start surviving 2-3 shots, but Pak 40 won't...unless magical deflect happens.
-
And considering the panther gun vs sherman side is a very extreme case (IRL 124mm@500m versus 38-45mm sherman side), I do think the new settings are still conservative, maybe the minimum damage should be enhanced.
Oh dear, the Sherman side armour is 40mm indeed, not 60mm. I don't have the internal developer version installed, so I can only look at the text files in the online repository. And those text files only list the materials used, not where they are used. I just assumed 60mm would be the side without checking.
So 40mm is mat 126 and the damagemod for 330 126 is 15.75. The correct values for the Sherman side armour are:
Damage at 0m: 1968 hp to side.
Damage at 300m: 1370 hp to side.
Damage at 600m: 772 hp to side.
So since distance modifier is linear, you lose 2.0 hp of damage per metre, so beyond 484m you will need 2 shots.
-
I don't think that tank fights need to be scaled down to last longer. It was fun when they didn't. Besides, what about poor AT gunners? Tanks might start surviving 2-3 shots, but Pak 40 won't...unless magical deflect happens.
Agree, It worked before, why shouldn't it work now?
-
It has nothing to do with scaling to make tank fights last longer. It has something to do with the scale of the game engine wich is not 1:1 to real live. And no, handheld AT weapons will not take 3 shots as in 2.45. All of them are fixed right now especialy Panzerfaust 30 and Panzerschreck.
Pak 40 performs pretty damn good aswell. It is time that people gain some trust again, when even vocal opponents of the 2.45 tanking system took part in the tests and gave feedback. There is alot more stuff around the corner in terms of tanking, not only in favor of the axis assets but also of the allied assets.
-
not only in favor of the axis assets but also of the allied assets.
Any example ?
-
Jackson vs Kingtiger i hope!
-
I will let it up to a dev to give you some information but the Jackson vs. KT is certainly one of them. ;)
-
I understand it's scaled down but what scale are we talking about? Panther gun still has 89mm penetration at 2000m and I bet it can go through sherman side at 3000m. Scale has no role to play here, at least not in this case. I can accept the "scale down" in more marginal cases such as panther cant one shot the 76mm side of Jumbo beyond certain distance, but not this one. Besides, it's true that not every tank IRL explode to one penetration, yet this cant justify 100% survival beyond certain distance.
-
We can't please everyone.
-
I understand it's scaled down but what scale are we talking about? Panther gun still has 89mm penetration at 2000m and I bet it can go through sherman side at 3000m. Scale has no role to play here, at least not in this case. I can accept the "scale down" in more marginal cases such as panther cant one shot the 76mm side of Jumbo beyond certain distance, but not this one. Besides, it's true that not every tank IRL explode to one penetration, yet this cant justify 100% survival beyond certain distance.
Then you agree that this also must applied to german tanks aswel right? Because we went down that road and only 2 persons on this forum came up with the attitude of "allied tanks should be 1s1k but german tanks should not"
I can perfectly understand your opinion, and its all fine by me if it is applied to EVERYTHING. Not like...making stupid expections by myths and shit.
Like.."German tanks had shells with explosive fillers and allies did not! this gives perfect justification to make allied tanks 1s1k and german tanks not"
I think this new tank system is a great thing. Yeah there could be some things that MIGHT be better but alot of stuff could have come way worse.
I rather have a good running reliable (unrusted :p )Opel Astra then a BMW that is breaking down every 15 seconds
-
I can perfectly understand your opinion, and its all fine by me if it is applied to EVERYTHING. Not like...making stupid expections by myths and shit.
This. People use to believe in 'legends', when it comes to data and statistics german armor isn't really that superior anymore. Of course it is greater in many aspect but it isn't so good that people think.
-
And to be more clear. We don't go through all the tanks and think "How can we make ze german tankz ztronger?" It is a long process of research, checking different sources in terms of armor capabilities and penetration tables for different gunes and their different kinds of ammunition. You have to check different sources and compare them, take battle reports into account and after that you can still get long discussions because people have a different opinion about different aspects. And on top of it you have a limited game engine.
It's gonna be a big improvement, that's for sure.
-
People already complaining before it is released? Seriously?
-
People already complaining before it is released? Seriously?
Surprised? You change something - it's bad, you don't change anything - it's even worse. You will leak some information - people complain. You won't leak a thing - they complain even more.
-
But majority seems to be happy and non-complaining ;D
-
But majority seems to be happy and non-complaining ;D
Fact. Nothing but smiles on my end.
-
But majority seems to be happy and non-complaining ;D
Fact. Nothing but smiles on my end.
Same here.
Besides, with the numbers Lightning posted you can still 1s1k a Sherman to the side up to 485 meters, which is plenty I think.
I'm really looking forward to the new release.
-
Thanks devs and testers for your effort!
-
I disagree with " This is a game certain things should last longer " thought.
Should we reduce rifle damage so Infantry fights could last longer too?
1S1K in tanking means you need more teamwork, like it or not. No more lone tankers going against flags or enemy hordes, you need spots and you need to act carefully. My favorite thing in FH1 was hunting down people camping in Tiger(s) or King Tiger(s), I always knew where they were there because I was getting reports. And this was before 3d map spots.
And yes, this also includes bigger tanks like KT gets killed with 1 shot in certain situations.
-
Should we reduce rifle damage so Infantry fights could last longer too?
No, it's completely different thing. Some tanks could stand few shots and remain operational. 1S1K in infantry combat (keep in mind that not all shots are 1s1k!!) represent the situation when you get shot badly (not only killed but also heavily wounded) what will keep you from fighting for some time and FH2 is a shooter game, not field hospital simulator.
Making tank combat more binary isn't really very realistic. Vehicle combat lasts longer because you need to take into account many real live events like partial penetration shots which could affects overal armor strength (hence hit points drop), penetration shots that haven't killed tank crew (in FH2 one player represent whole crew, hence hit points drop). We also lack partial damage (tank immobility, turret damage etc.) So, hit points and FH2's damage system, which is based on real life values of armor thickness and different caliber projectiles penetration capability btw, are there to represent that. Some penetration shot's in game only damage tanks because, supposedly, if low caliber penetrates it produces very low shrapnel inside the tank crew compartment, etc. Tank combat is much more complex than infantry fights. Also it has been changed lately and in fact, there more 1s1k now, so what about testing it before you complain?
Thing which makes tank combat feel less realistic is that, in most occasions IRL, crew would abandon damaged tank and won't risk their lifes. In FH2 nobody is "afraid of dying" but it also affect infantry combat, hence so much runnin 'n gunnin even is system is quite realisic.
-
I'm talking about 2.45 system.
I hope it will be completely fixed with this new update.
-
I'm talking about 2.45 system.
I hope it will be completely fixed with this new update.
From the detail released in this thread it's not a complete fix at all, more of a slight compromise to the 2.45 arcade crap. Sorry devs, I don't want to discourage you but personally I won't come back to FH2 as long as it's indulged in this "tank fight last longer" fantasy. And I doubt any of those who left in 2.45 would do.
-
I'm talking about 2.45 system.
I hope it will be completely fixed with this new update.
From the detail released in this thread it's not a complete fix at all, more of a slight compromise to the 2.45 arcade crap. Sorry devs, I don't want to discourage you but personally I won't come back to FH2 as long as it's indulged in this "tank fight last longer" fantasy. And I doubt any of those who left in 2.45 would do.
~500m for sherman 1s1k seems pretty good compromise to me. It guarantees that in pretty much every engagement you can blow it up in 1 shot.
-
Exactly. I don't understand people who have not even tested it and try to judge it. It is no fantasy crap, it is the result of some hard work and alot of discussions and research. People simply have no idea how far 500m are ingame. You can snipe enemy tanks over half the map.
-
I'm talking about 2.45 system.
I hope it will be completely fixed with this new update.
From the detail released in this thread it's not a complete fix at all, more of a slight compromise to the 2.45 arcade crap. Sorry devs, I don't want to discourage you but personally I won't come back to FH2 as long as it's indulged in this "tank fight last longer" fantasy. And I doubt any of those who left in 2.45 would do.
~500m for sherman 1s1k seems pretty good compromise to me. It guarantees that in pretty much every engagement you can blow it up in 1 shot.
But then i wanna see a panther tank light up from the sides aswel :/
-
Exactly. I don't understand people who have not even tested it and try to judge it. It is no fantasy crap, it is the result of some hard work and alot of discussions and research. People simply have no idea how far 500m are ingame. You can snipe enemy tanks over half the map.
I don't agree with this statement to be honest.
Let's go through the 5 points of the tank damage system I noted earlier (http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=19359.msg313430#msg313430) and see how the values for each are determined.
1. Base damage and minimum damage
Base damage = 50 + Calibre in mm
Minimum damage = Calibre in cm * 25
Note that the unmodified damage a projectile does depends solely on the calibre of the projectile. This means that the unmodified damage of the Sherman's 75mmL40 and the Panther's 75mmL70 are identical.
2. Distance modifier
The distance modifier for all AP projectiles in the latest beta is currently a linear decrease from base damage to minimum damage over 600 metres. Note that this means that the Panther's 75mmL70 loses damage just as quickly as the Sherman's 75mmL40! If we compare the actual penetration tables for the 75mmL70 (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/guns/75-mm.asp) and the 75mmL40 (http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/guns/75-mm.asp) we see that at 500 metres the 75mmL70 penetrates 120mm and at 2000m 90mm and that the 75mmL40 penetrates 70mm at 455 metres and 50mm at 1820m. Thus the 75mmL70 retains 75% of its damage at that distance and the 75mmL40 under 70% (it is hard to compare, as the distances aren't directly comparable). If we look at the 75mmL43 for example, we see only a 63% damage retention. Thus, it makes little sense to have the same distance modifier for all projectiles, yet this is exactly the case.
3. Material modifier
Each projectile is assigned a material based on the penetration it has at 500 metres at 30 degrees (basic reported value in literature). We saw in the previous point that the 75mmL70 penetrates 120mm, so it gets the material "120mm_penetration".
Do note that the actual penetration is 124mm, but since we only have materials at 10mm intervals, we have to use 120mm. Making materials for every 5mm interval will make the damage impossible to manage (if it isn't already!).
To calculate the material damage modifier we use the following algorithm.
The 120mm penetrating projectile will have a damage modifier of 3.75 against 120mm thick armour. For every 10mm less armour you have, your damage modifier will increase by 1.5. For anything above the penetrating values, the damage modifier will be 0 (no penetration).
So, against the Sherman's 80mm front armour you will have 3.75 + 1.5 * 4 = 9.75.
The Sherman has 70mm penetration, so it will not penetrate 80mm.
Against the Sherman's 40mm side armour the 75mmL70 will have 3.75 + 1.5 * 8 = 12.75.
Against 40mm the Sherman's 75mmL40 will have 3.75 + 1.5 * 3 = 8.25.
This has been the major change from 2.4 to 2.45. Before this, the relation was exponential.
4. Anglemod
I am not 100% sure how the anglemod works and I can't check, because its discussion was mostly held in a section of the old internal forum that was not fully copied.
At any rate, the anglemod regulates the damage done, so it will only be applied on penetrating hits. Then, the angle is checked, in increments I believe, and another damage modifier is executed. Due to its quantified nature, it does not follow the sine curve exactly, but rather does 100% damage up to 20 degrees and 0% damage over 80 degrees or something along those lines.
This is actually, in my opinion, the factor in the damage calculation that is least arbitrary and most closely follows the physical world.
5. Hitpoints
This is probably the most arbitrary values in the damage calculation.
The general formula is:
(Side armour (in mm) + Rear armour (in mm)) / 2 * 25
So for the Tiger that would mean: (80 + 80) / 2 * 25 = 2000
For the Sherman: (40 + 40) / 2 * 25 = 1000
These values are however often modified. For example, the Tiger actually only has 1500 hitpoints, because otherwise it would be far too powerful.
Of these 5 points, the internal beta differs from the 2.45 public release only in 2 things:
1. The range modifier has been changed to have minimum damage at 600 instead of 300.
2. Some few vehicles have had their hitpoints changed based on individual feedback.
Of course, there are other changes, such as the awesome new collision meshes, which greatly reduce the chances of greatly unexpected results, such as accidentally hitting at an odd angle because of a bad collision mesh or getting hits that do no damage.
But do not be fooled by the range modifier. This is actually a pretty large change.
Minimum damage is generally about 40% of base damage. In 2.45 at 300m you will do 40% of base damage. Now you will do 70% of base damage, so that is nearly twice as much. However, the further you get from 300m, the smaller the difference between 2.45 and the current beta will be. So at point blank range and at 600 you will do the same amounts of damage in both 2.45 and the beta.
-
So at point blank range and at 600 you will do the same amounts of damage in both 2.45 and the beta.
Technically yes, but before people will start to complain again. It seems that a lot of point blank shots in 2.45 are calculated as angle shots, even if they look like clear sideshots, what reduces their damage and result in most WTF moments in game. It won't happen with new collision meshes anymore.
P.S. I dunno was it already mentioned but panzerfaust 30 have been fixed.
-
1 shot kill everything from infantry to churchills?
-
4. Anglemod
I am not 100% sure how the anglemod works and I can't check, because its discussion was mostly held in a section of the old internal forum that was not fully copied.
At any rate, the anglemod regulates the damage done, so it will only be applied on penetrating hits. Then, the angle is checked, in increments I believe, and another damage modifier is executed. Due to its quantified nature, it does not follow the sine curve exactly, but rather does 100% damage up to 20 degrees and 0% damage over 80 degrees or something along those lines.
This is actually, in my opinion, the factor in the damage calculation that is least arbitrary and most closely follows the physical world.
A hit from 0 to 60 deg from the surface normal does 100% damage. Any hit at a greater angle does less, and the greater the angle the lower the damage. There are 2 parameters that affect this, one is global and the other is per vehicle. I cannot remember how they affect it exactly, but the vehicle one can be used to 'turn it off'.
-
From the detail released in this thread it's not a complete fix at all, more of a slight compromise to the 2.45 arcade crap. Sorry devs, I don't want to discourage you but personally I won't come back to FH2 as long as it's indulged in this "tank fight last longer" fantasy. And I doubt any of those who left in 2.45 would do.
http://youtu.be/KuStsFW4EmQ
-
A hit from 0 to 60 deg from the surface normal does 100% damage. Any hit at a greater angle does less, and the greater the angle the lower the damage. There are 2 parameters that affect this, one is global and the other is per vehicle. I cannot remember how they affect it exactly, but the vehicle one can be used to 'turn it off'.
What? So I've been angling my tank since 2.4 for no reason at all? Well scratch that being the most realistic and least arbitrary part of the damage system then...
This kind of information really should be documented somewhere.
-
Only thing I can say is what I feel from testing all the tanks and it is a difference like night and day compared to 2.45 tanking in the beta. The range modifier certainly plays an important role in this whole matter and combined with the fixed colmeshes, better accuracy for some weapons (JagdPanzer IV; 2pdr) and some other important changes it will take 2.4 tanking, that most people really liked a step further. The Cromwell will finaly get it's absurd and bouncy colmesh fixed and there is just so much other stuff that will make it more enjoyable. Finaly I will be able to make an ambush without those bastards starting to burn and turning their turrets.
For the player - and I am one of those - it doesn't matter how the change is made. All that matters is that the annoying things got fixed, that drove alot of long timers away from the mod. And I am really happy of what has been achieved so far. What people hate the most are this freakin' battle communication and WTF moments.
-
So if the tank combat is fixed now, what still left to be made for the next update?
-
Vehicle movement, like reverse movement and climbing abilities (among other things).
-
So if the tank combat is fixed now, what still left to be made for the next update?
Maps, statics, new player models (?), more weapons and vehicles ... I'd say there's lots of stuff, depending if they want to release some of the Eastern Front maps in the next update or not...
-
Maps, statics, new player models (?), more weapons and vehicles ... I'd say there's lots of stuff, depending if they want to release some of the Eastern Front maps in the next update or not...
I hope the player models are done by now. :-\
-
Is Zero an active developer?
-
Is Zero an active developer?
AFAIK he's inactive for a very long time.
-
Is Zero an active developer?
AFAIK he's inactive for a very long time.
Sad... Who is going to do the Ivans then?
-
Is Zero an active developer?
AFAIK he's inactive for a very long time.
Sad... Who is going to do the Ivans then?
The only devs left are Stubbfan, Spitfire and MayhemicMAD atm. Unless Kev comes back, Stubbfan will have to code in all the new models. So stay on his good side.
-
The only devs left are Stubbfan, Spitfire and MayhemicMAD atm. Unless Kev comes back, Stubbfan will have to code in all the new models. So stay on his good side.
When did Kratzer leave? ???
-
When did Kratzer leave? ???
In fact, he's active on the internal forum from time to time but probably too busy with his other projects. The flamethrower of Churchill Crocodile and Marder III M were the last things he made for FH2.
-
If I may ask, how many devs were there at the peak of development? Or to put it differently, what's the biggest number of simultaneously active (FH2) devs...ever?
-
Great description of the anglemod system there (first post). This could get me back into FH tank play. The only thing I worry about is that it will make tanks too "disposable" like they are in vanilla BF2. It was nice seeing tanks sometimes stick around for a while and take some punishment. But I guess the new col0 works both ways. With the tank commander making allowances and angling his tank the best way it may be harder to get him. Whereas with the old col0 there were probably more random kills even when the tanks was angled perfectly, because of shots hitting home off the parts of the col0 that have been removed.
-
Splendid news! Keep up the fantastic work Developers. 8)