Author Topic: FH2 Teamwork theory  (Read 14834 times)

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #90 on: 29-07-2011, 11:07:34 »
I think the last comments pretty much resonate with my feeling.

And I totally disagree with you, Zoo. PR forces people to team-play in even less subtle ways. You get in a tank with the wrong kit, YOU DIE! You need to come from all the way back, if your SL doesn't request to have a forward spawn point. You get into a tank, you basically have a super expensive truck unless you find someone else IN YOUR SQUAD to shoot - And he does so, relying completely on you to drive correctly. Need I say more?

Putting dead cows in the barn at Eppeldorf, etc is quaint at best, but not intrusive imo. Its subtle.


I think FH2 is genius in its attempt to balance total free-way and fun with realism and teamplay. That's a juggling act. I can even understand why Natty will be skeptical about any extra work to tweak teamplay - Its tough making a well-done system even better without breaking the whole damn thing.

That to me, is what makes 2.4 very special, and I take my hat especially off to Kev and Natty for that... But to the whole dev team as a whole.


Teamplay DOES exists in FH2!!

Now, what I WOULD like to say is it being developed into the game mechanics. In Monopoly, a player knows he needs to pass GO to get $200 or pounds. Its just the way it is.
In the same way, video games need to have rules, or affordances that are geared towards specific goals.

A more robust commo-rose, properly enforces voice vs radio overs with tools to allow it (and an effect of WWII strategy, like being cut off/ able to communicate with the rest of your force), a more interesting reason to play commander and have a real effect on strategy, suppressive effect coupled with a commo-rose that allows real WWII suppression-flanking tactics. THESE ARE WHAT WILL MOVE IT from THIS STABLE State to, what I am sure, WILL be the next stable state.

In the distant past of 2007, many game mechanics were introduced... many didn't get traction and were either abondoned, left to rot or simply left dormant.

.The medic.
.Bleeding.
.The ammo-truck
.Voice-radio over dichotomy...
.The Tanker kit
.the commander asset
.Attempts to improve the commo-rose
.Suppression effect
.The single animation on call for a spot (when binocs are equipped)

And others that could be implemented
.Internal repairs of vehicles - to go with the tanker kit
.Reduced number of ammo-boxes, and readily available medic kits.
.Life cycle of the destroyed vehicle
.Hand gestures (to go with key communication and to allow immersion and non-verbal communication)
.Use of mumble (To enforce voice overs range)
.The static, pickup radio pack and the commander/ squad leader walkie-talkie.



I think its time these came to maturity. Its the next logical step in teamplay





« Last Edit: 29-07-2011, 12:07:49 by djinn »

Offline Natty

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.170
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #91 on: 29-07-2011, 11:07:32 »
I didnt understand anything frpm ZPs post... dead cows, what?

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #92 on: 29-07-2011, 12:07:20 »
I didnt understand anything frpm ZPs post... dead cows, what?

His argument, and Zoo, please jump right in if I misrepresent it, is that FH2 uses little tricks to enforce the tunnel shooter i.e dead cows in doorways (I know of Eppeldorf), etc to make sure you are doing one of the many things the designers planned for, and so gameplay is restricted to that.

In PR, according to zM, the map is more true to sandbox. You can enter most buildings, even if it isn't directly overlooking the flag etc i.e obviously tactically important etc - So, it allows more freeway in determining teamplay - And yet, can STILL boast of being team-play driven.


Offline Zoologic

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4.141
  • In FH Since 0.67
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #93 on: 29-07-2011, 15:07:23 »
Yes djinn, that is very correct.

For themed-maps like Alam Halfa and Fall of Tobruk, this thing can be either briliant or sucked in many cases.

For example, in Alam Halfa, you have a very small gap between the minefields for the panzer to pass through from their mainbase to first line of British defenses.

In many towns, like Brest, or Goodwood's Cagny you have a lot of houses which can entraps you. The building might be entered, but that's all. It is beautiful (the static models, the textures), but it is annoying at the same time. PR has a lot of random enterable buildings, which makes it resource-hogging, sometimes it is too random to the point of being pointless



NTH:

PR has several game mechanics that enforce us to do realistic things and teamwork. I am very okay if they are for real or not implemented in game like a rushed job.

An example of cool way to enforce it:
This is rare, GTLD is included in a few kits, most of which are requested kits. You need this device to use smart bombs and missiles. No planes in PR carry its own targeting/lasing pod. But for teamwork purposes, this is awesome, especially if you are the target designator on the ground.

An example of poor way to enforce it:
Special kits for special vehicles, lest you blacked out and die. Are we going to die if we didn't switch our AK-47 to some SMG when driving a BRDM-2? I know it is funny if someone in a gheelie suit drive an armoured scout car, but they don't just die and surely have some skill to drive at least. Now, we have this feature, which forces us to enter the vehicle from the correct position (hatch door), why stop there?
Available solution from FH2:
How about some extra animation that FH2 did to prevent dolphin diving? I mean like animation of soldiers getting out from the car (opening doors/hatch, turning off engines, hey even Far Cry 2 has this!). Think that "Oh man, I don't have the key... engine cannot be turned on, and he dies from...whatever reason"

Offline NTH

  • FH-Betatester
  • ***
  • Posts: 3.146
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #94 on: 29-07-2011, 16:07:13 »
You know Zoo it sure it's cool to point a laser designator and the seconds after that have jets come blow shit up. It really is.
In the end, now I'm going to sound like Natty and the creeps me out  ;), it's all meta data. Replace laser designator with binoculars and jets with artillery and you have the same kind of teamwork in FH2 we are discussing right now.

The thing that makes PR's teamwork good is the strict adherence to the rules with regard to using VIOP, stick to the squadleaders and listen to the chain of command. All the other stuff is cool but not essential to teamwork.

FH2 teamwork derives mostly from the map design and the fact that most of the players can dream by now what needs to be done on any given map.


Milton Gault roared, "Roffey, I know bloody well that Jerry knows we are here but you don't need to advertise the fact!"
(From: First in the Field, Gault of the Patricias by Jeffery Williams, page 72.)

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #95 on: 29-07-2011, 17:07:14 »
I would NEVER want strict adherence to teamplay to EVER be introduced. NEVER, never... NEIN!

FH2 is NOT that kind of game, Even if PR is. So that's as far as comparisons between both games should go. Same engine, that's it.

Fh2 has come a long way from the lone-wolf snipers in the bush it used to be, to squads being far apart doing their own thing and becoming squads of snipers in the bush, to entire teams moving in the open, fanning out....

I think we need to give credit for this. the changes have been subtle, but the difference between FH2 in 2007 an FH2 in 2011 is vast.

And tbh, the flexibility of play actually affords more tactical play than restrictive system ever could. I personally, and please don't argue this, its an opionion, but i don't think PR's teamplay system actually makes it play like modern warfare... But Fh2's lack of one DOES make it play a tad like WWII, imo.

The improvements I SEE, are optional... Simply things that allow people to do what they currently do better - NOT to restrict them to 'do it right'

Offline LHeureux

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.350
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #96 on: 30-07-2011, 06:07:03 »
Not enough things blow up in PR, that's the major downside. In a war with 2 big faction like Russia and U.S.A there would be WAY more explosions and stuff happening, if you played WiC you know what I'm talking about. I think PR needs more commander abilities, like "Arty" some normal barrage and other things like "A-10 strafe", etc. If PR goes this way I would simply love it. Make the vehicles spawn faster, more tickets, make the infantry spawn faster and closer to the battle. That would make it awesome and more modern warfare-ish.
Hey, huge ass .gif signatures are totally unnecessary and obnoxious. Not these anymore, thankyouverymany kkbyethx love you, all the homo. -Flippy

Offline KAIZER SOSA

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Comrade Kaizer - For Greater Glory!
    • View Profile
    • Community Moderator at Heroes & Generals
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #97 on: 30-07-2011, 07:07:47 »
Wow... so this has become an underlying PR versus FH2 thread? Amazing... and pointless now.

Offline LHeureux

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.350
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #98 on: 30-07-2011, 09:07:12 »
Of course, my first message on the thread (OP) was about a reply on a FH2 thread in the PR forums.
Hey, huge ass .gif signatures are totally unnecessary and obnoxious. Not these anymore, thankyouverymany kkbyethx love you, all the homo. -Flippy

Offline KAIZER SOSA

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Comrade Kaizer - For Greater Glory!
    • View Profile
    • Community Moderator at Heroes & Generals
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #99 on: 30-07-2011, 09:07:00 »
Of course, my first message on the thread (OP) was about a reply on a FH2 thread in the PR forums.

Uh... yeah, about the theory of teamwork not which mod is better than the other.

Like I said, a good portion of this thread is pointless ad hominem with strong underlying themes about mod y being better than mod x.

But hey, whatever... continue at your leisure.
« Last Edit: 30-07-2011, 09:07:35 by KAIZER SOSA »

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #100 on: 30-07-2011, 09:07:53 »
OK, can we move back to FH2 only... Say what CAN be done... Not how some other mod does it...

Just talk about the game mechanics employed, DON'T mention where you got em...



Offline LHeureux

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.350
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #101 on: 30-07-2011, 09:07:26 »
It was not a "versus", we were comparing between the both mod's teamplay style. We never said "x is better than x".
Hey, huge ass .gif signatures are totally unnecessary and obnoxious. Not these anymore, thankyouverymany kkbyethx love you, all the homo. -Flippy

Offline djinn

  • Masterspammer
  • ****
  • Posts: 5.723
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #102 on: 30-07-2011, 11:07:05 »
It was not a "versus", we were comparing between the both mod's teamplay style. We never said "x is better than x".

Ya... But it ends up being just that - Otherwise Kaizer Sosa and myself wouldn't have said so.

So like I said, if we ARE going to state gameplay... things that help teamplay, just say what, don't include where from. Describe it. it should be clear enough to stand by itself, and allows people to judge it unbiased.

Offline Archimonday

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1.197
  • Sir vis pacem, para bellum!
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #103 on: 30-07-2011, 14:07:18 »
I think if your trying to pinpoint how PR has an advantage in team-play it comes first and foremost from its server rules, than from its design. Sure there are plenty of things about Project Reality that constitute the need for team-play, such as vehicles crewed by two or more men, however the vast majority of teamwork is created by strict server rules which enforce the idea.

It is a rule on almost every server that players must join a squad. It is a rule on almost every server that squad names must be made in cooperation with the role of the squad. It is a rule on almost every server that the wasting of assets (such as bombing a flag) is unacceptable, and there are many other examples.

The golden thing about these rules, coupled with Project Reality's very carefully designed system is that it has weeded out those people who would rather not play in a team based fashion. It is to the point now, where if a BF2 player who has no particular interest in working together with his squad, joins one, that the veteran community of PR will shun him, and force him from the game.

While I'm not for this level of extremism, server enforcement is a big deal when it comes to facilitating the need for teamwork, just as important as map or core design.

I will still stand here and advocate that players need to have the teamwork mindset drilled into their head by a constant flood of graphics, trailers, and news posts that emphasize the roles of teamwork. That make the links between multiple pieces of equipment, and give the examples of how they should be used together. Website posters, in-game posters (That break the immersion but reinforce the game), videos that emphasize it, there needs to be a mass "propaganda" movement to inspire the teamwork legion. It needs to be seen inside the news updates, on the website, in the forums, in-game, on the loading screens, in the menu background, in trailers, on signatures, avatars, and many other places. Many players suffer from one great moral crutch: ignorance. If players can be educated about the need for teamwork, if it is drilled into their mind, there is all the more reason for them to go into the game with that mindset.

Some Examples might be:












Offline LuckyOne

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2.722
  • Purple Heart Collector
    • View Profile
Re: FH2 Teamwork theory
« Reply #104 on: 30-07-2011, 15:07:12 »
^ I like those! Now we just need to put them on some walls in game to make people remember them... I know it's not historically accurate, but then again neither Ramelle or Meuse is...
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...