Author Topic: Lets remember.  (Read 9654 times)

Offline Torenico

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Lets remember.
« on: 02-04-2009, 20:04:19 »
Today... April 2 2009.. 27 years since the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands.

When the Argentinians where about to Invade Chile.. in the Beagle Conflict.. the Pope came to Montevideo and asked for Peace. War wasnt declared.


The Argentinian Goverment was angry.. and th Economy started to Fall.. people dindt wanted this Military Junta Anymore. The Army decided to move into the Falklands.. Virtually.. the Initial Operation was a Succes. The Army had to use their best Soldier for the Main land Defense.. Tanks and Artillery stayed in reserve at the Chilean Border.. since Chile considered Argentina as the "Top Enemy". Britain sent a task force to the Falklands.. while the Argentinians builded Defenses. A big part of the Argentinian Army in the Falklands where 18 years old soldiers.. whit Little training and constantly treatened by an Officer. Argentina almost won the War.. the RN (Royal Navy) sold most of its Landing Ships.. Harriers could be shot-Down by the Argentinian Airforce..


Argentina, had Naval Bases not far from the Falklands.. plus Airbases whit Modern Aircraft such as the Mirage IIIA. One of the First moves was the Sinking of the Belgrano.. an old WW2 ship who survided the Attack on Pearl Habour.. sunk by their "Super" (As the SUN Newspaper said) Nuclear Submarine..


For the Argentinians.. using the Aircraft Carrier "25 De Mayo" was Impossible. Later.. several Argentine Aircraft launched an attack on the HMS Sheffield, who was sunk by Exocet Anti-Ship missiles.. (Argentina had around 10 or 5 of them).

Followed by Landings at San Carlos, Argentinians where retreating to Puerto Argentino or Stanley.  Battles on Goose Green and Mount Kent where devasting for the Argentinians.. as the Last battle came close.. Stanley. When the Battle for Stanley was over.. 9800 Argentinian soldiers became PoWs.

The war lasted 74 days, with 255 British and 649 Argentine soldiers, sailors, and airmen, and three civilian Falklanders killed.


Offline Sir Apple

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #1 on: 02-04-2009, 20:04:43 »
Oh. I almost forgot about this.

*Salutes*

Biiviz

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #2 on: 02-04-2009, 21:04:59 »
Quite an interesting little war. I did an essay on this war last year.


May the fallen be at peace.

Offline Moose

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #3 on: 02-04-2009, 21:04:35 »
Tengo un libro sobre esa guerra.

Offline Fuchs

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #4 on: 02-04-2009, 21:04:09 »
Lest we forget!
A foolish war from both sides, but what war isn't foolish?

Anyways, salute to the fallen.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline sheikyerbouti

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #5 on: 04-04-2009, 03:04:23 »
 Lest we forget,

 But I have to be the bastard fly in the ointment here, and point out certain issues within the original description by Tore. I respect his patriotism but i must clarify certain positions taken.

 1) The Military Junta of Argentina started the war by its' own accord and there is speculation that this was done to inflame nationalist sentiment within Argentina so that the population could be distracted from its own internal strife.

2) Great Britain never, I repeat never, came close to a position of losing possession of the Malvinas. Even under Argentine occupation, the citizens of the Falklands never faltered in their loyalty to the Queen. To this day, the citizenry are avowed monarchists which is much to the detriment of any political claims for ownership by the Argentinians.

3) It is true that the Brits had no landing ships at their disposal, but that wasn't exactly necessary as they modified civilian transports to accommodate a small number of Harrier jets which were found to be capable of limited flight operations from the decks of these modified vessels. Passenger ships were used to transport infantry and the remainder of the escort group was comprised of  standing Royal Navy assets.

4) It was simply retarded of Argentina to deploy the Belgrano without any anti-submarine warfare capabilities. An interesting piece of trivia is that the Belgrano was sunk with a WW2 era torpedo, as the British sub captain was hesitant to use his modern, yet unproven torpedoes. Subsequently, all Argentinan naval assets were ordered to remain in port to better protect against the possibility of further submarine strikes.

5) The Malvinas lie just within the outermost striking limit of the Argentine Mirage jets, so while they posed a serious threat to RN vessels with their Exocet missiles, that very threat was mitigated by the fact that the Argentinian incursions were very limited in their duration (or hang/loiter time) over the target area (mostly around Port Stanley).

 Great Britain used this to their advantage but admittedly their anti-aircraft protocols left much to be desired. In fact, they (UK) still used acoustic sensor technology for guiding their AA guns but this proved dangerous in terms of the friendly fire incidents that ensued.

6) Argentina was ill prepared for the British landing assault but that didn't stop them from laying minefields that still exist to this day, the British didn't help either by laying even more landmines (I hate mines). In truth, the blame for Argentinian failure lies solely on the generals who led those lambs to the slaughter. Once naval superiority was established by Great Britain, the outcome of the war was virtually guaranteed.



 The Falklands conflict is a model war in terms of what was learned by all sides. Such a small conflict in terms of numbers had a massive effect on the world stage. Much information and learning is still to be learned from the outcome.

 It concreted Maggie Thatcher's power, helped lead to the downfall of the military junta, established basic expectations for modern naval complements (the adequate mix of aerial, naval and submarine assets), and also demonstrated the need for better defences against airborne and sub-surface threats.


We will remember them, their memory will be preserved so that it will never be repeated again.
My Quebec includes Canada

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #6 on: 04-04-2009, 03:04:58 »
And of course the most crucial bit...there are no Argentinians on the Falklands.  They were uninhabited islands until the British, and the population is 99% british to this day.  The Argentinians still have no ground for a claim, other then that they are close by.  But in that sense, the USA could claim the Bahamas.

Offline Torenico

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #7 on: 04-04-2009, 04:04:36 »
Well.. actually.. no free Argentinian Citizen can visitin the Islands.. you have to be an Familiar of a Fallen soldier.. thats what i heard.


Also.. Argentina could sends its best trained soldiers to the Islands.. but the treath from Chile denied that Reinforcement.



Belgrano was a big piece of ... you know what. Common!.. a Pre ww2 Ship.. no modern anti-submarine weaponry.. basically.. nothing.

The Exocet was feared by all the RN Ships.. Airplanes like the Mirage III and Super Eterdand where really good against the Modern RN Fleet.


Also.. that was the first time the Argentine Airforce saw combat.. ever. Argentina wasnt able to deploy Armor in the Islands (Bad.. BAD terrain).. a good tank called TAM or Tanque Argentino Mediano or.. Argentinian Medium Tank were good against the British Armoured Components.. (I think they had Scimitars..)

If Argentina never launched the Operacion Soberania or Invasion of Chile.. they would be able to deploy many trained men in the Islands.

Argentina was in position to win the War.. they just lacked equipment to do it.. the main Aircraft where the Old.. but still used A4 from the USA.. and the Argentina made Pucará.


I talked whit some veterans.. all they said was "A hell.. i was just 18 years old boy.. i just left the School and in a few days.. i saw my friends dead.. in a muddy trench".


Well Sheik.. thats pretty True. But UK was in position to lose the control of the Malvinas.. many British Colonies were lost.

The Invasion was launche TOO early.. the Army wasnt prepared yet and the weather.. just sucked alot.. id they waited 2 months they could have better succes.


Offline VonMudra

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #8 on: 04-04-2009, 06:04:03 »
Well.. actually.. no free Argentinian Citizen can visitin the Islands.. you have to be an Familiar of a Fallen soldier.. thats what i heard.

Yes, that is true, but that has nothing to do with the fact that there are no Argentinian people living on the island.

Offline jumjum

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #9 on: 04-04-2009, 09:04:23 »
Lest we forget,
 But I have to be the bastard fly in the ointment here, and point out certain issues within the original description by Tore. I respect his patriotism but i must clarify certain positions taken....(many points follow)...
...

I see the esteemed Dr. yerbouti has delivered his famous scholarly article, entitled "One Hundred Reasons Why You Suck and Are Wrong Too"

...Yes, that is true, but that has nothing to do with the fact that there are no Argentinian people living on the island.

...and the famous Professore v. Mudra follows with his groundbreaking monograph,"..And You Smell Bad Too"

Poor Tore: all he wanted was a nice remembrance for his deceased countrymen. Of course, I've done the same thing myself so I can't blame anyone.

Better luck next time Torenico.  ;)

Like the Phoenix rising from the ashes.....

Offline Torenico

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #10 on: 04-04-2009, 09:04:34 »
Better luck wtf?

Ok lets all this BS here. I've never been in that War.. dindt heard the news when out shitty goverment said "We are destroying each ship of the Royal Navy".. this is what i got from Info.. School.. friends.. veterans.. wiki and other sources. I respect fallen and veterans. ANd maybe better luck next time i dunno  ::)


Offline Fuchs

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #11 on: 04-04-2009, 10:04:03 »
Are we now turning a remembrance thread into a historical discussion?
Wake up guys, shame on you.
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline VonMudra

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #12 on: 04-04-2009, 11:04:46 »
I don't see what's wrong about some honest discussion on the war, and the political ramifications that it has had.=/

Offline Fuchs

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #13 on: 04-04-2009, 11:04:19 »
So, for example, somebody dies and your at his funeral. Are you then going to discuss about what he did wrong in his life?
"Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death.
To break this vicious circle one must do more than act without thought or doubt."

Offline Meadow

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Re: Lets remember.
« Reply #14 on: 04-04-2009, 13:04:16 »
No. But we're not at a funeral. We're on the forum of a historical-interest community.

Que?

I still maintain it was grossly irresponsible for the British government of the time to provoke the Argentines like they did - months before the invasion the British garrison requested an upgrade in weaponry from SMLEs. It was rejected. In the late 1970s, James Callaghan had scared the Junta into backing down from a similar attack when he sent the Ark Royal and a task force to patrol the Falklands when Argentine troop buildup was detected. The Thatcher government did the very opposite, practically inviting them in - it is not surprising that many consider this a selfish war to save her reputation.

Nevertheless, the Junta too is to blame, of course. Both governments acted beyond foolishly and interestingly for similar aims - to assuage public opinion that was turning against them. Let us hope that never again will governments throw 1000 lives away for their own personal gain.

May all who died rest in peace - the individual soldiers were, as ever, heroes. 
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