Author Topic: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War  (Read 1209 times)

Offline Zoologic

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The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« on: 25-12-2009, 10:12:28 »
It came to me upon re-reading the whole WW2 history books.

Well, not FH-specific, but here we go.

When i look back to what maps are available in FH 0.7, theatre-wise, it seems that there are certain periods of wars that are lacking of depiction in the mod. So let's say, the war in Pacific began in 1936, then escalated in 1941, and in Europe it started in 1939, then escalated in 1941. Because the war in especially early western theatre ended so quickly (thus not many battles can be interpreted in typical BF maps setting), if not it was interrupted with what known as "the phony war".

I felt that during the years of 1943. The year should saw more action in Pacific and Italian theatre besides the epic Kursk battle and more gigantic eastern front action. I believe this was caused by the lack of Italian theatre map, as the most case in many other WW2 games. It makes the west suddenly disappear from the war during that period. It is in the middle of the escalation of the war, and there should be more action during that year and should see more maps portraying what have happened during those periods of times. So, it makes me think that the year of 1943 somewhat translates to "the Soviet's turn" in WW2 gaming.

Moreover, the same thing i felt for 1940-1941, where the war has began to escalate. Early eastern front maps are rare, because mostly they are caught by surprise and cannot adequately deploy and field battle-ready equipment to counter the Germans, which makes a good BF maps based on those events difficult to design. Depicting blitzkrieg if very difficult due to the nature of the battle. But there are some interesting battles going on that usually forgotten, the northern theatre, we saw the battle for Norway and Finland vs USSR war. Despite the odds, i think we still can make some interesting maps out of those scenarios.

In contrast, i see some kind of 1944 and 1942 bias in most WW2 games. When we look at FH0.7 maps, we will see more battle in 1944 (mostly western front), even outweighing most of other fronts. And we see that too in 1942 maps. We see more action in North African dessert, Pacific, and some Eastern front battles. Seeing this way, i see more like a general tendency of being allied-bias (not just FH2, but the whole WW2 gaming). It makes the 1942 and 1944 seems more "lively".

So, do you think that there are certain events on the years that are lack of portrayal that it should have gained? (Which FH2 could potentially balance it out)?

Offline djinn

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #1 on: 25-12-2009, 13:12:05 »
Well, somehow I think FH2 is going to be less biased... Although to what extent is another story

I see the same thing too - Some 1940 maps, 1 or 2 1939, Apart from Wake, is there any other 1941? Then many 1942, about 3 1943s and uber-number for 1944...

I can see a tactic developing... Everyone wants to see the heroic war... the famous battles. So the devs need to make it interesting... 1944, 1944 and more 1944

Too much going on in Italy, hence alot less 1943.. Especially since, unless I'm wrong the Italians were one of the last countries in... And where as Canada and Australia could be replaced by England for the time being, and required little to include them, Italy required a complete model and a theater that needed completely new statics and vehicles

Sure, there could and should have been more early war maps.. That's what FH started for, wasn't it
And the mappacks didn't help, since most fanmappers wanted to include fun maps... As compared to seeminlgy obscure ones

Personally, I almost thought there was peace in 1943 due to the lack of famous battles in that time. Germans were heading for the hills in NA, Allies hadn't yet invaded Europe, so much of the action seems to most as a side show - Don't know much about what went on in the Pacific in 1943 though

In FH2, however, we have quite a fair amount of 1941 and 1943 maps - Sure, the imbalance remains... but then, perhaps once we get to Italy (Since that was the campaign that was heavily-43 biased), we should see more

Offline Flippy Warbear

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #2 on: 25-12-2009, 13:12:09 »
The finns were sitting on their asses and making candle legs in their trenches during 1943, so of course it was the most quiet year of the war.

Offline Timmay9/11

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #3 on: 25-12-2009, 22:12:59 »
Gssssml!   
Im not home right now so I cant use my all knowing WW2 book,  so I just use the Wiki article of the year 1943 to give you an general overview of what happend in 1943


January 15
The Japanese are driven off Guadalcanal.

January 18
WWII: Soviet officials announce they have broken the Wehrmacht's siege of Leningrad.

January 23
WWII: British forces capture Tripoli from the Italians.

February 2
the Battle of Stalingrad comes to an end with the surrender of the German 6th Army.

February 8
Battle of Guadalcanal: United States forces defeat Japanese troops.

February 14
Rostov-na-Donu, Russia is liberated.
Battle of the Kasserine Pass: German General Erwin Rommel and his Afrika Korps launch an offensive against Allied defenses in Tunisia; it is the United States' first major battle defeat of the war.

February 16
The Soviet Union reconquers Kharkov

March 8
American forces are attacked by Japanese troops on Hill 700 in Bougainville, in a battle that will last 5 days.

March 26
Battle of the Komandorski Islands: In the Aleutian Islands, the battle begins when United States Navy forces intercept Japanese troops attempting to reinforce a garrison at Kiska.

May 11
American troops invade Attu in the Aleutian Islands, in an attempt to expel occupying Japanese forces.

May 13
German Afrika Korps and Italian troops in North Africa surrender to Allied forces.

bal bla bla

just read it yourself, there is a lot of potential
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943
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Offline djinn

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #4 on: 26-12-2009, 00:12:00 »
Look carefully, most of those imply a surrender or defeat - Or push back

Few imply actual starts of battles which is essentially what is needed

Karkov, 1
Kasserine, 2
Bougainville, 3
Battle for the Aleutians, 4
Tripoli, 5

and a few others... Not much considering alot of stuff begun in 42 and 44... Allies push Germans back on all fronts, Pacific, NA and Eastern... 1944, Dday and hence most of the Late weatern battles before the bulge... Kinda hard to compared those 2


Offline Zoologic

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #5 on: 26-12-2009, 04:12:08 »
Yes, i read that page too, thanks for putting it here and takes time extracting its content, much appreciated.

In FH0.7, the battle portrayed in 1943 are:

http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/main.php?mod=FH&module=maps

Eastern Front:
Kharkov Outskirts
Prokhorovka (the epic Kursk)
Battle of Orel
Battle of Valirisk
note that Kharkov Winter i think happened in 1941 (based on equipment available on that map) and i think the list is a bit mistaken
Some great fan map on this: A day of Zitadelle (also depicting Op. Citadel)

North African:
Kasserine Pass

Pacific Front:
Adak Island (that Aleutian battles)
Battle of Makin
Tarawa

Western Front:
Bombing of the Reich

I guess we see far better and fairer portrayal for each years of war in FH2, judging from NA maps alone:
http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/main.php?module=maps&scenario=3&lang=english
We got 2 NA maps there! Mareth line and Tunis (a what if map). Surely, it still left Kasserine pass to be portrayed.

Why is it bothers me to make proportional number of maps based on the year it happened on certain theatres? The answer is the equipment! Some good and the best stuff are deployed during some of those years. And i think, 1943 is the last year where the Germans still can maintain their war machine production quality. Playing as either of both sides there, i should get a feeling that either sides still have a realistic potential to win.

Offline Timmay9/11

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #6 on: 26-12-2009, 16:12:45 »
What came to my mind is that alone Operation Husky has such a huge potential.
Think about it, German and Italians against US and English troops. Most of the needed unit models are already there, just the maps,  and Operation Husky offers a lot templates (right word to use in this context?) for exciting maps ;)


and by the way, it seems that the "history channel" way, the the "turning point" way favors at these kind of games . By this it is sure that the year 1943 does not offer you as much as other years, Stalingrad, Al Alamain, etc. all of them took place in a another year.  But this does not take account of a fact that has been already the ruling reason for victory and loss in the first world war.  Not single battles where the “turning point” for victory or loss, the industrial capacity and resource ability of the involved countries had imo the higher influence.
« Last Edit: 26-12-2009, 16:12:47 by Timmay9/11 »
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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #7 on: 26-12-2009, 17:12:18 »
I'd like to see the Gustav-line!
But there are at least french soldiers needed for the italy theatre. And as already been said, loads of additional other stuff.

Offline djinn

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #8 on: 26-12-2009, 18:12:32 »
Just from following past trend, I' imagining at least one other army being added for the next release, perhaps one that has already been in the works... Perhaps, French?

But then again, with the word being release-soon and the devs seeming to complete maps already exsiting and topping up with fanmaps, I might be well off base

Would be nice to see them though, or Italians with... did they wear different clothes in Europe from they did in Na? Or is it the same thing?... If not, perhaps reskinned, re-uniformed Italians...

Or the devs might just surprise us with the Reds... Still good for 1943...



Offline Timmay9/11

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #9 on: 26-12-2009, 18:12:15 »
at least the Units of the Repubblica Sociale Italiana (you know, this puppet regime lead by Mussolini by the will of the OKW) 
they had italian uniforms with black shirts,   
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Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #10 on: 28-12-2009, 16:12:22 »
Not all of them, only the aptly named blackshirts, and they were ineffective and fewer.

Offline Torenico

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #11 on: 28-12-2009, 17:12:39 »
Well the RSI Army had 52.000 Men in July 1943.

On Septermber 26th 1944, Elements of the 4th Division Alpinni "Monte Rosa" and the 3rd Division "San Marco" with other German Units attacked the 92th Infantry Division in a Operation called Winter Storm.

After the Succesfull Attack, the 92th Infantry Division attacked the RSI Units, this time the 1st Division "Italia" was on the defense. The attack was succesfully repelled.


Offline Captain Pyjama Shark

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Re: The Most and the Least Lively Years of War
« Reply #12 on: 28-12-2009, 18:12:16 »
Don't get me wrong, the RSI was kinda cool, but the black shirts never were.
Now X-Mas, on the other hand, was totally bad-ass.