Forgotten Hope Public Forum

Forgotten Hope 2 => Singleplayer and Coop => Topic started by: djinn on 13-01-2010, 23:01:17

Title: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 13-01-2010, 23:01:17
Now, I'm not sure if this will be to WinterHilf, I'm thinking LeagionX since I understand there's a division in AI from navmesh and level strategy to bot AI?

Well, this thread is mainly for people (as well as myself) to give feedback on bot AI after 2.25

So we already know the basics,

Bots are alot more agressive
Bots camp the Pak35/37, 88, AAs, Mg15, and once in a while use the mg34 tripod
Bots throw smoke
Bots use charges
Bots don't over-use greande or rfile-grenades any longer
Stuka bots strafe targets
Fighter planes are a real threat now
Tanks fire at greater range
Tanks may stand and fight rather than always charging in
The PZII uses HE against infantry
AT rifle bots are less accurate
AA bots are less accurate
Bots use alot of new vehicles or old vehicles more, such as the caro Amato

However,
1. Bots on any of the said guns, save for AA and mgs, don't swivel and will only fire if the target is right infront of them and do not, for the cannons and AA, save for the 88, use them against infantry as they should,
2. Bots toss charges once they see enemies but not near the enemy, but where ever they are, which causes alot of TKs
3. Bots don't use the MG42 tripod and I'm yet to see any prone with the bipod
4. Bots seldom, if ever, use the mg34 tripod or bipod
5. Tank bots don't use HE against infantry anymore
6. Stuka bots don't drop bombs, use the divehorn and ten to fly too low



Here are a few less obvious ones
1. bots on the hanomag mounted mg tend to cause a firing sound even when they stop firing
2. Hanomaf Rear mg don't fire.. unless this was done on purpose
3. The Churchill tank, the M10 Wolverine and British equivalent don't have AI templates for the mg
4. Bots with AT mies try to stand-deploy them and ait for a tank to drive over (the mine they never deployed) - Becoming lost to their wait rather than fighting
5. Bots don't attack infantry who sneak up on them when they are in emplacements, even if they are aware of the enemy
6. Bots don't use larger AT guns, save for the 2pdr and 6 podr mobile.
7. Bots don't choose vehicles on demand when facing enemy troops, they just pick the one closest to them
8. Bots don't use artillery, even though its clear they can 'see' targets far off and might thus be able to fire HE at some range
9. Bots don't respond to direct commands except for 'move here' nor make commo-rose style commands such as 'I need a ride'
10. A bot in an armored transport with defensive mg will not switch to the mg if attacked unless that's his default posiition
11. Bots don't recognize deployable mgs or mortar once the player has deployed them

Well, these are some I could come up with, any others might add to the log


Suggestion
Bots should use AT guns and mgs by camping them and using all possible means against the enemy. Any and every mg and AT gun should be top priority to add to defensive lines and interesting hard points as well as trade bot logic and strategy for map design strategy, which will conceal their inherent stpudity. Loved vehicles should include deployable mgs and mortar (if ever they learn to fire them)

Bots should consider the option of bailing stationary weapons if attacked by a force that they are not designed for, eg. An mg gunner and a tank by itself, an AT gunner and infantry (a chance should exist for bailing or staying on)

If a bot is attacked by an enemy, and they have options of vehicles around them, they should choose the one best suited for that enemy and try to take out the enemy instead of staying and fighting or trying to bypass it
Bots should not consider moving mobile AT guns often
Bots should be able to swivel all AT guns and lafette trpods as humans will do with the arrow keys

AT mine bots should see a tank, deploy AT mine instantly where they are (May need varaint of AT which can be deployed standing like the AT rifle that can be fired standing)

Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Zoologic on 14-01-2010, 17:01:56
It is rather easy to suggest nice things. But even as novice as I am to AI programming and navmeshing, i still kinda grasp how it works. And it helps a lot in suggesting, and i suggest we SPers should take a look at the system. Start by opening the AI files, download the BF2 editor and FH2 modding packs, and take a brief look.

Then we might have more workable suggestion, which might be the solution as well.

This way, djinn, you won't feel that your suggestion thrown away without any acceptable explanation regarding the problem implementing it (be it 'engine limits', which is the most common scapegoat and I suspect to be a 'bullet proof' argument against nagging players).

Suggestion
Bots should use AT guns and mgs by camping them and using all possible means against the enemy. Any and every mg and AT gun should be top priority to add to defensive lines and interesting hard points as well as trade bot logic and strategy for map design strategy, which will conceal their inherent stupidity. Loved vehicles should include deployable mgs and mortar (if ever they learn to fire them)

Now, i don't know about bots camping AT & MG stationary guns like in Thomas LinXin's Omaha map. Maybe there is a "use/man" radius (where the bots detect or see through threats, and start manning stationary weapons nearby). So map design placing is crucial in this too. Since maps like Fall of Tobruk placed stationary guns at ambush spots that involves things like speculation (which makes bots might not see the target before it really appears)... it is hard to make this kind of thing really effective.

But i guess, this worth trying. I have to learn more about this though, and hear words from our AI coder, Legion.

One thing i know for sure: bots do use stationary guns (AT/MG/AAA) only when they see threats (enemy), and then abandon them when there is no more threat detected.

Kinda "instant Rambo heroic jump into big guns" to kill bigger bad guys, which PR tries to unrealistically remove in MP, gameplay-wise by prolonging their cooldown period (for the first 15-30 seconds, it won't fire). However, it doesn't affect bots.

Quote
Bots should consider the option of bailing stationary weapons if attacked by a force that they are not designed for, eg. An mg gunner and a tank by itself, an AT gunner and infantry (a chance should exist for bailing or staying on)

As one of the basic BF2 bot behavior i know, they only bail when they don't see enemy. So bailing whenever in danger, might be solved by making a condition for bot to bail out whenever the health of the object they are manning has been decreased into certain level.

Quote
If a bot is attacked by an enemy, and they have options of vehicles around them, they should choose the one best suited for that enemy and try to take out the enemy instead of staying and fighting or trying to bypass it
Bots should not consider moving mobile AT guns often
Bots should be able to swivel all AT guns and lafette tripods as humans will do with the arrow keys

Related to points before, sometimes, it is one shot-one kill (like a tank gun shot to stationary guns), so you can't really make them runaway and judge condition like human players do. Bot's vision is likely impaired and they seem to cannot differentiate enemy (only infantry/stationary/tank/planes, but not specific, so they'll keep pushing on Stuart to kill Tiger II, nor realising it is totally useless).

Quote
AT mine bots should see a tank, deploy AT mine instantly where they are (May need variant of AT which can be deployed standing like the AT rifle that can be fired standing)

Bots can "fire" when prone. You know how they use MG34 and MG42 (before) pretty well. It is the same thing "fire when prone only".

The difference is, it is handled differently as AT-mines are not 'guns'. Even some of the seemingly fine hand weapons AI template are broken, no wonder Legion says it needs "a big work"!
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 14-01-2010, 19:01:28
I get your meaning and i surely intend to start learning modding soon. But I suck! and it requires me to do alot of self-psyching since I'm really code-phobic

About bot intuition, I simply meant if a bot sees a tank, he should run to an AT gun, an infantryman, he runs to the mg in his area, and if all fails he throws smoke at the tank and runs away like you sometimes see them do, or open fire with whatever he's got at infantry

I'm really reading between the lines from what many of the AI-coders have said regarding bots in general and trying to see what little things can be done to make them seem more intelligent and at least make SP fulfilling. I said it another thread, but besides a crappy PC and sometimes net connection, I love SP because its very pick-up-play compared to MP and also because bots play in a more classic way which sits better with my expectation of how things should be... sure, I miss having snipers in buildings, but there you have it

Added suggestion
Bots with binocs 'firing' at tanks with them to give targets to me if I choose to use the arty guns or tubes

 

Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 15-01-2010, 06:01:53
2. Bots toss charges once they see enemies but not near the enemy, but where ever they are, which causes alot of TKs...
On Goodwood-16, they are throwing them as soon as they spawn...when all enemys are at the other end of the map.

9. Bots don't respond to direct commands except for 'move here' nor make commo-rose style commands such as 'I need a ride'
I'd say it's because any AI-related code in the commo-rose was removed when it was changed to the bar-style.

And it's the main problem with SP. Even worse now the bots are more inclined to jump into halftracks, they pile in and never get out... :(
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 15-01-2010, 10:01:29
I noted something from watching planes in Totalize: The flakvierling is too powerful - Actually all Aa guns are. I recall WinterHilf having made bots a tad less accurate in 2.2 which I personally welcomed. They were as accurate in shooting down planes as riflemen were in taking out other units at range.

Now they are just too accurate and it makes planes appear and get blown to bits in seconds... Coupled with bots camping, which is most welcome, it makes bots have too many AA, especially in Totalize, at their disposal with pixel-aiming capabilities - I live how far they fire, but not how dead-on accurate they are in shooting

Another thing I noted from Goodwood is that German tanks get pwned by Brit and American tanks which, for all intents and purposes should be sub-standard compared to everything including the PZIV... Here, however, they kill the Tiger with ease while the German tanks, for their part, are reluctant to fire on the enemy and only do for every 5 shots from the Allies

EDIT:
Here's another thing I've noted about bots
Riflemen now fire bolt action rifles as fast as the animation will allow them i.e. too fast for bolt-action riflemen.

Also, is too much rape if bots use the AA guns on infantry eg, the Flakvierling in Point-du-Hoc?

And the typhoon doesn't use its rockets, no the FW190 its bomb. I sat in a tank once daring them to fire on me, and they did fly straight at me but seemed not able to have the nerve to do anything else
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 16-01-2010, 07:01:20
One thing I noticed on Totalize...I was on foot near the airfield at the German main when I realized the Flakvierling was tracking my movements, not firing, just aiming at me.

I don't know if letting them fire on infantry is a good idea, esp. considering their current level of accuracy.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: winterhilf on 16-01-2010, 10:01:34
Also, is too much rape if bots use the AA guns on infantry eg, the Flakvierling in Point-du-Hoc?
There isn't a clear path (back out) for bots to the flak on PdH.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 18-01-2010, 10:01:48
...Riflemen now fire bolt action rifles as fast as the animation will allow them i.e. too fast for bolt-action riflemen...
Yeah it makes it look like they're firing before it finishes.


The bots are fairly useless with the Bren, aren't they?

They fire off clip after clip with almost no result (other than attracting the enemy). I've noticed at the end of the round you can pick them by their K/D count...usually 5-10 kills and 30 deaths give or take.

I reckon they either need to be more accurate or have their range reduced.

I haven't checked the German MGer's yet. They seem pretty accurate though...but maybe that's just because I'm on the wrong side of the gun.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 19-01-2010, 04:01:54
Personally, I feel the lowered bren aim is welcome change from its pixel aiming bots... they racked up the most kills until 2.2! and unlike German mgs, didn't require proning... you can imagine
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Zoologic on 19-01-2010, 13:01:02
I am very sure, it was the availability of Bren kits as spawnable class in Tunis that cause the map to be British-biased in SP.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 20-01-2010, 04:01:22
Is it too much trouble to get a Downloadable tweak to get emplaced cannons rotating again as well as tanks firing HE?

Once those are in, everything else is tolerable... currently it is impossible to play SP, save for infantry-combat without it being a simple test-session


BTW, got alot of kills from bren gunners on Falaise so I'm sure its not altogether broken.. still works well for suppression too
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 20-01-2010, 06:01:35
...Once those are in, everything else is tolerable...
Dunno about you, but I find the bots unwillingness to leave vehicles to cap flags extremely annoying. Esp. on African maps where a lot of flags have to be capped on foot (can't get to them with vehicles).

At times it effectively reduces my team by 10 because they're camped in the back of halftracks... :(

...BTW, got alot of kills from bren gunners on Falaise...
Falaise was actually where I first noticed it.

One of the first rounds I played (as a Brit) was basically one huge firefight between the Chuch and St.Lambert Sth. Towards the end of the round, the endless BLAP-BLAP-BLAP of the Brens was starting to give me a headache, so I checked the score and there it was...

At the end of the round, out of 24 bots:

10 scored 30-20 (av. K/D)
13 scored 10-30 or worse...
...and the remaining bot scored 158-0 (he was sitting on the Lewis in the church)  :P

That's pretty bad considering it's more than half the team. I'd expect that sort of score from 0.5 bots, not 1.0 bots... :-\

Granted that's the worst case scenario, due to the Bren-gunners opening fire as soon as they see the enemy's head appear over the crest of that hill (smaller target).
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 21-01-2010, 19:01:16
For the vehicle-camping... I'd hope it be less for mobile vehicles, especially trucks, however, for stationary vehicles I think its fine

Sure you don't have the full 32 or 24 people on your team charging the enemy, but you do get a good force, say 15 at least for 48 maps, and perhaps 24 for 64 maps.

The you get the added bonus of the enemy having static defenses, WW2-style like an mg or HE-firing AT gun that needs to be overcome. These don't last long as strafing runs and ground assaults take them out once and the bots formerly manning them will be thrown back into circulation - Basically, AI strategy thus a sum of the AI skill and static defenses i.e. the mapper's strategic plan for that map  - Think Mareth line or Gazala

Without them, however, and you need solid AI strategy to make Sp worth playing and you wont get it...Bots just can't be that strategic, them being more reactive than anything else
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 22-01-2010, 08:01:09
Yeah I don't mind them camping on stationary guns, but atm it seems like vehicles are a higher priority than capping flags...*sigh*...Once again the need to be able to order bots around raises it's ugly head... :P

I suppose one solution is to get rid of the passenger seats entirely...e.g. remove all but the driver and gunner positions.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 22-01-2010, 09:01:40
That might be a tad too much work for little gain.. besides, I use those seats myself

Perhaps, what can be done is to make it that seats besides the gunner and driver position are not as 'liked' so that bots will bail them once they get to their destination or find themselves off their route and thus will prefer to walk the rest

Also, make them such that bots will bail automcatically once the driver bails or dies... OR change seats to the drivers position

Thirdly, drivers should be able to switch to gunner position i.e. for halftrucks, where driver and gunner are seperated - Especially when they encounter an enemy at their destination - It beats them sitting in and just revving the engine.

Even for stationary guns, they should be able to bail once attacked from the rear i.e say, an mg gunner is attacked and he swivels the gun as far as possible, realised he still can't face the enemy and hence, bails to use his rifle or smg etc.

I've seen these in former versions before as well as in BF2V so I'm sure its doable.

Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 23-01-2010, 10:01:10
Just noted something in Goodwood today that is more to do with bot AI than map issue
So,
I was wondering why the uber german tanks were always crisscrossing the rail - Their pathmap in that area is perfect and I've seen the Tiger do the overpass easy once the alcove was blocked by a Brit halftruck that had probed too deep behind enemy lines and gotten killed by the axis-only out of bounds area (We need a better term for that)

So the issue is not pathmapping at all! Instead the problem is the commander AI telling his troops to defend bases once their under-attack and not changing this to an attack order once the base is lost. the bots in turn seem to see defending 'enemy bases' as lower priority than defending their own, which in turn is less than an attack order. Its been there since 2.0, I think. But it sure will make their counter-attack more aggressive if they recognised the difference between a lost base and a base that is BEING lost.

Sure, the panzers are shy now and get pwned by thew Sherman VC, but the bigger issue is why they keep turning around in circles rather than moving foward, hence revealing thier weaker rear armor.. And i think the commander issue here is one of the big reasons why

I think it applies to many other maps too

EDIT:
Holy shit! I just saw a Hurricane AT plane shot down by a PZIII! Bots, yes, bots... This plane was well off the ground diving down to take a shot at the tank... was far off, but I clearly saw it going boom and falling out of the sky. This was on Gazala and the plane was besieging tanks parked far off near the main German base. Now, I know the 88 doesn't swivel to aim so that wasn't it. The Germans didn't have a plane airborne at the time and then all I see is the plane go BOOM and the log say 'so, so and so [PZIIIsomething]so and so...

Also, the tank combat is depressing. i specifically chose Gazala to see tanks in all their forms. They DO infact stop at range, sometimes and fire on enemy tanks (This is the interesting part) and if the land is flat like in Gazala, they can fire from ranges that will be a challenge to humans (This is the cool part...Makes you wonder why arty still remains quiet since its a similar principle I imagine). Issue is, they may forget themselves and remain guarding that spot of earth almost indefinitely (Which sucks).

I'm impressed with the AI team thinking outside the box in trying to make bots do stuff BF2 may not quite have considered like stopping to fire (Ironically, since it should be harder to fire on the run). But I must conclude that as of 2.25, tank combat for bots is utterly FUBARed. I sure hope we get a patch soon, otherwise its until the next release :-\
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 25-01-2010, 06:01:20
Quote
...Issue is, they may forget themselves and remain guarding that spot of earth almost indefinitely (Which sucks)...
Mersa is bad for that...the German tanks park on the ridge and take the occasional potshot at the town. The odd few that make it to town don't stand a chance as the Brits are ALL camping at the Mosque and Matruh West.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Drawde on 25-01-2010, 10:01:13
One particular thing I noticed when looking through the FH2 AI files, is that many weapons have extremely high minimum range values. Most HE rounds for tanks are 250 (the maximum range of tank guns in vanilla BF2 is around 150!). This could be the reason that tanks rarely if ever fire HE at infantry.
There also appears to be a lot of inconsistency with the maximum + minimum range values for weapons, particularly tank guns, as well as with the deviation (allowed inaccuracy) values. Most tank guns, including coaxial MGs, have a maximum range value of 1000, which is far beyond visual range in the BF2 engine - I'm wondering whether it might improve the AI to reduce this to 500, and possibly also add optimalRangePercentage values to more weapons. This might reduce the problem of AI tanks sitting in place miles away from the enemy (in the last game I played on the "Supercharge" map, an AI Crusader was firing at the the German-held town with its coaxial MG from almost the other side of the map)

I haven't yet worked out why AI emplaced guns don't turn to face enemies that aren't directly in front of them. The rotation values for these weapons look OK. But quite a few emplaced weapons + AT guns also have rather high minimum range values, which doesn't help!

It seems like FH2's tank/vehicle AI is much more flawed/buggy than the infantry. The virtually infantry-only Pointe du Hoc map works great, both the Allied and Axis AI fight very effectively. Vanilla BF2 proves that bots can use tanks + vehicles reasonably effectively, so hopefully the FH2 vehicle AI can be improved with some tweaking.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: von.small on 25-01-2010, 14:01:23
Bots are alot more agressive
Bots camp the Pak35/37, 88, AAs, Mg15, and once in a while use the mg34 tripod
Bots throw smoke
Bots use charges
Bots don't over-use greande or rfile-grenades any longer
Stuka bots strafe targets
Fighter planes are a real threat now
Tanks fire at greater range
Tanks may stand and fight rather than always charging in
The PZII uses HE against infantry
AT rifle bots are less accurate
AA bots are less accurate
Bots use alot of new vehicles or old vehicles more, such as the caro Amato

Now, just back that truck up, say what!? bots do all that now? Holy smokes, last time I played SP the Mersa Matruh bots sat in Pzrs at one flag point and drove backwards and forwards banging into each other.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 26-01-2010, 09:01:25
...so hopefully the FH2 vehicle AI can be improved with some tweaking.
Without a doubt...

I was comparing the Weapons.ai files of the FH Stuka and Clive's AIX Stuka (specifically, the bombs) because the bots happily drop bombs with Clive's Stuka, but not with the FH Stuka.

The min/max range values are similar but the target strength values are completely different. The FH Stuka has single digit values (6.0, 8.0, etc.), while Clive's has double digit values (35, 45, etc.). The FH Stuka also has a lower deviation on the bombs...


EDIT: Jeez-uz, I see what you mean about the tanks. Did you notice how the max. range of one gun/ammo type is equal to the min. range of the one below it?...

Code: [Select]
rem *** Add gun ***
weaponTemplate.create PZIVHMainGun
weaponTemplate.indirect 0
weaponTemplate.minRange 10.0
weaponTemplate.maxRange 250.0
...

rem *** Add gun ***
weaponTemplate.create PZIVHMainGunAPCR
weaponTemplate.indirect 0
weaponTemplate.minRange 250.0
weaponTemplate.maxRange 500.0
...

rem *** Add gun ***
weaponTemplate.create PZIVHMainGunHE
weaponTemplate.indirect 0
weaponTemplate.minRange 500.0
weaponTemplate.maxRange 1000.0
...
It's like that for nearly every tank I've looked at except for:
US M4A1_eu - has a min/max range of 0/150 for all ammo types.
Cromwell - checked all 3 versions...no ai files at all. Which is a tad strange considering the bots use them... ???
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Drawde on 26-01-2010, 15:01:27
The min/max range values are similar but the target strength values are completely different. The FH Stuka has single digit values (6.0, 8.0, etc.), while Clive's has double digit values (35, 45, etc.). The FH Stuka also has a lower deviation on the bombs...

Interesting - so does increasing the target strength values increase the chance of the AI using a particular weapon? I assumed the values were only"relative", i.e. the AI would just use the weapon that had the highest strength against its target, whether the strength was 5 or 35 doesn't matter if it's the highest strength weapon the AI has. But I'd be interested to know if this is wrong!

I've already fixed all of the tank shell range values in my "AI tweak mini-mod".
The Cromwell, BTW, uses AI values from other tank weapons (Sherman, I think), as does the Churchill and a few other vehicles. Another change I've made in my mini-mod is to give them all these vehicles their own AI files, and do the reverse (multiple vehicles referring to a single AI file) with identically-armed variants of the same vehicle, such as the Sherman.

So far I haven't had much luck getting AI tanks to use both coaxial MGs and HE shells. They seem to stick to using either one or the other, depending on which one has the highest strength value vs. Infantry. But I'll have to do some more testing to see for certain.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 26-01-2010, 20:01:53
Halleyuja!

Please, please - what ever you do, don't just fade away like alot of fan-AI modders do... Vehicles with different AI code to recognize armor!? My most despicable wet-dream come true :-)

Please share this whith the community when you can

As I recall, bots don't seem to use both coaxial mg and HE. BF2 tanks never had the 2. So they either use one or the other, which is more than BF2 bots ever did - Or were even planned to

As long as they only use HE on infantry ever so often, and focus more on tanks, this would be fine and quite the compensation for lack of HE explosions ingame. Some tanks can still use mg to make players not get too familiar and stay on their toes when tanks are around. For instance, make some colours of the same tank use one thing, and the other, another such as the 2 variants of PZIV-H, Panther and Tiger

Also, you might want to give the greater range to the hull mg, and lower range to the turret, be it coax or HE - otherwise bot-infantry will never have a chance
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: TheLotusEater on 27-01-2010, 00:01:01
Yes this sounds very interesting Drawde!  :D

I might just have a reason to play FH2 once more! 8)
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 27-01-2010, 05:01:32
Interesting - so does increasing the target strength values increase the chance of the AI using a particular weapon?...
Not sure, but I'm guessing so. I'll have a dig on the BFSP forum and see what I can find out about it.


...As I recall, bots don't seem to use both coaxial mg and HE. BF2 tanks never had the 2. So they either use one or the other, which is more than BF2 bots ever did - Or were even planned to...
The tanks in AIX have both ammo-types and the bots use them both, firing one then the other in quick succession (at other vehicles). Although, IIRC they're not too keen on using the MG...
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Drawde on 27-01-2010, 11:01:17
Please share this with the community when you can

I'll definitely release my AI tweaks as a "mini-mod" for FH2 once I've got them a bit more polished. I've managed to get tank vs. tank and tank vs. infantry + AT gun combat working very well - almost as well as infantry vs. infantry, when the tanks don't get stuck on the scenery - but I'm still trying trying - without any success so far - to get the AI for AT guns working properly. (As other posters have mentioned, the bots seem to be unable to rotate/aim any guns other than AA). I'd also like to get AI aircraft to use their bombs, but again no luck so far.

The tanks in AIX have both ammo-types and the bots use them both, firing one then the other in quick succession (at other vehicles). Although, IIRC they're not too keen on using the MG...

So is there already an AI mod for FH2? I did a quick web search for this the other day, but didn't find anything.
Currently, tanks seem to fire shells at distant infantry/gun targets then switch to MGs when closer. They don't always seem to use MGs when they should, but it's better than the default AI settings.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 27-01-2010, 12:01:30
AIX (Allied Intent Xtended) is a SP/COOP mod for BF2. I strongly recommend you DL it. It's great fun and has the best toys (carpet-bombing bots in an A-10 is endless fun  ;D).

You might want to check the BFSP forum as well. Heaps of AI/modding info there.

I had a poke around over there trying to find any threads regarding ai weapon strengths, but didn't have much luck. Most of the stuff I was looking at was to do with the deviation and range.

AIX mod: http://www.aixtended.com/

BFSP forum: http://www.battlefieldsingleplayer.com/forum/index.php?act=idx
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: TheLotusEater on 27-01-2010, 18:01:37
you guys might also want to check out the Assault mod for BF2 http://www.moddb.com/mods/battlefield-2-assault-mod   

and BF2SP: Professional AI mod http://www.moddb.com/mods/bf2-sp-128-professional-ai

I've tried the Assault mod and it, from what I've played, had great ai in it ;)
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 27-01-2010, 21:01:00
@ Drawde
Great going man and thanks in advance... Might also want to see what bots can/cannot do with artillery, especially howitzers, if not mortar
About the AIX tanks firing both coax mg and HE, that really opens doors. I do think tanks need to use HE alot less though and mgs more.. perhaps, HE only at infantry like AT infantry and sappers with mg on everyone else... which brings me to my next point

I noted something playing a fixed Luttich. I replaced the M4A1 with the British variant.. ironic, since that was the one CTDing goodwood earlier and a funny thing happened

A Panther kept firing AP shells at me once when I was an infantry man. I was not sure it was me or my tanks far off until it hit the Wolverine and so I shrugged it off as ta tank-tank combat... But it bothered me how low it aimed sometimes i.e as though trying to hit the closer target, me.. some of its shots hit the ground right infront of me, while my tanks were well out of sight in the rear...

Later in that game, I tried to use a zook on the Panther, and it fired an AP point-blank into me and killed me. No friendly tank was anywhere nearby

Also, I once tried to use a panzershrek on an M4A1 and got hit by HE on three consecutive lives before i finally got it. As though it changed to HE specifically because I had the shrek and not because I was infantry. I'm not sure if anyone has looked at the code closely enough since 2.25 and netiher WinterHilf, nor LegionX are commenting, but it does seem like it was purposefully done

Although, with infantry using charges against tanks with the sapper kit, the devs might want to have these included in their HE target list. Again, if its possible, maybe coax mg should be for non-AT or xpack-armed infantry.

Also noted a terrible flaw in the camping Vehicle bots of 2.25. And I now see what CannonFodder meant

Sure, let bots camp AT guns and other stationary weapons, but they camp vehicles, neither changing position or bailing for anything. Tanks will park outside flag zones that are out of their range and sit there waiting for infantry to come. maybe, there should be a change that they bail after a while with nothing to do. But for GP vehicles and armored transports, this is a must. Once they get to their destination or close enough (When the driver is moving else where), they should bail and go on foot. Only the defensive gunner should be allowed to stay on the gun - And even he should switch to driver seat if no one else gets in there for a while - And be able to switch back if he sees infantry in his way

Drivers also don't seem to care to point the vehicle in the right direction for gunners. This is another thing that could be looked at.

Oh, and I think the useless german tank issue seems to be far from fact in Luttich - German tanks, including the Puma own the battlefield in that map
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: im_a_lazy_sod on 28-01-2010, 04:01:40
I've found one of the most epic aspects of the bots now is their ability to fly planes so well

Running around in co-op in alemain and having to take cover when you hear a plane fly over is epic - even more so when they strafe out the gunners in the half-tracks/tank commanders

one of the best things was being taken out by a 109 in alamein while on the 88 taking out the yerman tanks approaching from the south...

the ai is awesome - can't wait for the next patch and more sp/co-op maps =)

keep it up
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 28-01-2010, 10:01:32
...About the AIX tanks firing both coax mg and HE, that really opens doors...
Sorry man, what I meant was they fire both AP and HE rounds in quick succession...they'll fire one, then switch and fire again before the first round hits. Has a one-two punch effect...BOOM-BOOM  ;)

I'm not sure how often the AIX-bot tankers use their MG because they usually have a mate in the gunner's seat firing his MG...and I'm usually too busy trying not to die to notice... :)
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 28-01-2010, 21:01:46
eeek - Not exactly what I'd want FH2 bots to do

BTW, I found out today that the M10 has a problematic handling for bots. They may move it like a Sherman in open terrain, but in closed up places like lutttich, they run it into buildings and get stuck indefinitely

Quite a powerful vehicle though - The single equalizer in Luttich
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 29-01-2010, 06:01:28
Yeah, particularly at Mortain East between the building on the north side of the street and the fence behind it.

It's mainly due to the bots refusal to pivot on the spot (in a tank) and to reverse more than a few feet at a time (and that goes for all vehicles).

Rather than back out of a tight spot, they'll try to turn around and get wedged. And quite often they'll try to cut corners around obstacles and end up going to and fro indefinitely.

Whenever I notice it, I just ram them a few times to get them unstuck. If that doesn't work (or I'm on foot) I jump in the driver's seat, move it clear for them and then give it back.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 29-01-2010, 17:01:45
I'm begining to get why MPers feel we SPers are wasting our time, hoping... Here we are baby-sitting the bots :-(

I sure hope to see something new soon - I'm begining to lose faith somewhat cuz the more I play recently, the less impressed I am with bots, the more I realize I can't just jump in and have fun, I need to consider it game-testing to avoid the dissapointment

Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 30-01-2010, 07:01:49
Chin up, sunshine. I take it you haven't noticed Drawde's latest fix: http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=4251.0

And yes, the Germans on Luttich are in dire need of a full-time babysitter... ::)
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Tubesteak on 30-01-2010, 08:01:40
One problem I've seen is way to many AI templates.  There's no need for every vehicle to have it's own unless it's unique.  The AT guns are perfect example.  Almost each gun has it's own.

A common set for example (light tanks/heavy tanks) makes it easier to source problems and make changes.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 30-01-2010, 12:01:33
Getting back to this...

...A Panther kept firing AP shells at me once when I was an infantry man. I was not sure it was me or my tanks far off until it hit the Wolverine and so I shrugged it off as ta tank-tank combat... But it bothered me how low it aimed sometimes i.e as though trying to hit the closer target, me.. some of its shots hit the ground right infront of me, while my tanks were well out of sight in the rear...

Later in that game, I tried to use a zook on the Panther, and it fired an AP point-blank into me and killed me. No friendly tank was anywhere nearby...

+1...I was on foot at Mortain East (Lutt.) when the Puma got me in it's sights and fired. He was definitely shooting at me...first shot hit the ground one step in front of me and the turret followed my movements...no friendly tanks around...he got me on the third shot.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 30-01-2010, 14:01:06
Well, at least they fire.. if its only scare that they actually (accidentally) use HE
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Zoologic on 31-01-2010, 17:01:18
They fired AP shells on me as an infantryman too, i noticed this mostly in German Panzers. Because British tanks use their MG, so i never really know what kind of shells they are using when trying to eliminate infantries.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 01-02-2010, 19:02:01
Biggest perpetrator is the Puma. It sees infantry, it sees nothing else...


I had a wonderful day playing Goodwood this morning. I had just enough time to play one map before I set out for the day and I decided not to play Luttich since that fekking 76mm AT gun (I think thr American version of the 6pounder?) kept blasting anything and everything. I love that it's now mounted, but without the battle being spread out beyond the town or Mortain and the 2 other flags, and infantry bots not knowing how to deal with bots on stationary weapons, this map becomes a fragfest for the one guy that gets the AT and finally, the bots stop pouring in from the German base, save for the hapless Hanomag that runs into the LOS of the gun

I decided to go for Goodwood and was so impressed with the Germans this time around. I still can't absolutely say for fact why they keep trying to run back across the rail, but the PAK40 was a wonderful stopgap. As well as the 88s. Both 88s at Cagney were manned by Germans and kept the Brits at bay from that sector, the PAK manned near the rail crossing prevents tanks from getting across and the Germans poured over the rail in a scene reminiscent of Band of brothers' Carentan episode blasting away while they came.  Tanks went up in smoke on both sides and the Brits certainly had the upperhand till the Germans got Cagney and the battlefield became a mobile stagnation with the tow extra bases on the British side changing hands frequently and some Brits actually making it to the entrance of Cangey West, bypassing the 88s.... It really did refect what i imagine to be a Fh2 version of the classic FH1 map.... but one truer to the real battle.

All needed now is infantry that know how to handle stationary weapons and halftrack mg gunners, bots not being so tied to mobile vehicles unless they are the driver of a tank or the mg gunner, except for those on tanks, tanks firing HE and MAYBE, just maybe, howitzers playing a part on the battlefield :-)

I sure can't wait to see tanks in Totalize and maybe even Falaise pocket... but I'd much prefer a proper patch for all these little issues first.

I think I can bear to play Luttich and Goodwood a few more times, while waiting for these fixes, and a bit more while waiting for vehicle pathmaps for the Beta Normandy maps, or even other maps.

EDIT:
Big surprise! I was playing Luttich and a small force of Germans led by a walking Stuka? is that the hanomag with rockets? well, that thing came by and fired a single rocket in anger far off into the sky before summerily being blown up by a Wolverine defending the base.

I think it's similar to mortar gunners firing unending shells when an enemy is really close... I wonder if it means that they only see units when they are close by... And perhaps don't know how to aim either.



Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 04-02-2010, 22:02:32
So here's my final conclusion on this until I find something drastically different or until something ingame changes.


Infantry
Bot infantry fire from further off, which is nice and makes them a real challenge - At 90% difficulty, they can be as tough as human players as far as reflex and accuracy - They use rifle-nades sparingly, which is tres cool.
However, they now seem almost oblivious to player commands when you are NCO. Before you could tell your squad to move to a position and they did, get in and they did, and we all were just waiting to see if they could respond to 'I need a ride'... Now they don't even ask

They use too much smoke grenades and hardly any grenades and don't know how to handle light armoured vehicles like the universal carrier. I suggest losing the smoke thing, except in rare occasions... like the rifle-nade use and letting them use nades like before i.e if you are partially or completely concealed.

For universal carriers, I think they should try to go for a shot at the driver specifically and anyone else in it and forget about using grenades. They should also try for a shot at occupants of other APCs and units using stationary weapons like mgs and AT guns. Fact is, they need to be able to SEE the person on/in it and not just the gun as one piece - And yes, again, forget the smoke - Darn thing is killing gameplay

MG gunners need to be able to see their MGs as top priority for infantry from range with prone being the best known position for use. At closer ranges (What is currently their mg-distance  ::)). Knife should be at the same range for them as everyone else.

Dashing back should be reduced in distance. They run too far back for silly reasons. Germans with the gabellte ladung should use them like the Brits use the charge. Just drop it already - Eint too hard. Currently they rely on their tanks to win against other tanks, otherwise they are screwed until 1944

LMGers are now perfect in accuracy and use. We certainly need more infantry and their accuracy is as it should be - Same for AT rifle-ers.
If miners cant drop their mines they should stop, wse prefer their use of the wrench over anything else.
Squad leaders should be seen as the least priority for selection, except when there is no condition. If there are armored vehicles, let em spawn as AT guys, if infantry, riflemen, smgers and MGers, light vehicles, smgers or MGers.

AT guns, AA and MG
I like how it is now for the most part. Bots staying on permanently, their range is excellent for all of them and once daude's fix is applied, their traverse is also good.

Bots need to stay on the vehicle and never get off save for being attacked in a way they can't retaliate, eg. AA and mgers attacked from close range without being able to return fire (AA can't use theirs close-range on infantry), then they should get off. Otherwise stay on. they need to have limited vision, only swiveling around at the sound of a vehicle or gunfire. Infantry should be able to sneak up on them.

AA should fire at infantry at long range. Infantry needs to LOVE these guns. top priority. AA and MG especially. AT should have slightly less priority to medium tanks so that if tanks exist, they go for the tanks and will only use AT guns when no tank exists, so that we can have a mobile battlefield and AT guns become the fall-back weapon when the enemy breaks though to the defense line faster than the tanks can spawn. But bots should prefer AT over walking.

AT with HE should use these on infantry (As should the hanomag with PAK35). AT without shouldn't. The guy on it should get off to defend himself and mount it once a tank is in sight i.e. he prefers it over walking in that instance. 88 falls under AA and should have similar priority i.e highest, but they need to be made slightly more accurate. Currently they are TOO inaccurate and don't pwn as much as they should. Try Sidi Rezegh and you'd understand.

AA needs to use the accuracy of FH2.2 - Currently they are too accurate. I know, I know, but its cool to be able to have a chance surviving their onslaght.. they are already permanently active, no need for pixel aiming to. Range is good though. Bots should like all mgs as much as they currently like the Mg15. From lafette mgs, to bipods, to deployed Vikers and Browning .30cal.

If a bot encounters an enemy, currently, he uses his hand weapon first - It shouldn't be so. Bots need to be able to use the best weapon for the job.

Tanks
I LOVE the range of tanks now and some tanks' ability to stand at range and fire. and they are certainly more aggressive now, perhaps due to the range they fire now.

But tanks need different code from one another according to their gun, therefore, a matlider should see itself like a light tank since its gun is of similar quality.
Once a tank encounters a heavier, first priority is to conceal itself in smoke. Then try to flee while firing - Not charge in. If it was going somewhere, then it should use infantry tactics of moving back and then trying to go its merry way, while firing at the heavier tank ofcourse. This should be more so for light tanks facing heavies. Also, tanks facing enemy tanks above their weight need to be able to switch ammo to capped-ammo and not the original ammo type.

For some reason, German tanks feel sheepish and are less likely to fire at Allied tanks. This shouldn't be so. Also, tanks that HE should use them on infantry as and when they see them, OR they should use HE only on AT infantry and engineers, leaving other infantry for their hull gunner etc. Perhaps this will cut down on the HE-fest and TK that may occur otherwise. Tanks should use either HE or mg on AT guns and second priority should be AP. For enemy mgs positions and AA, it should be HE and mg

The PZII doesn't seem to like to fire. And of all the tanks, it and the FIAT NEED to as that's their only choice to survive other tanks. These tanks should also use HE on infantry, irrespective of class, since they are very vulnerable to AT rifles at range. Tanks like the Stuart and British tanks should use thier coax mg for infantry as they currently do - AND if possible, the Stuart and M5A1 could use shot if its ever figured out how to use both coax mg and shell for the same target

For other tanks, this miracle should be applied thus, use mg at close range, HE at long range, except for AT infantry and engineers in which case, use HE exclusively

Airplanes
Almost No complaints here, planes are certainly the most aggresive things on the battlefield with good accuracy, ability to stay on the target assigned them by the commander or NCO and they fly gracefully and fire from good range.

except for fighter-bombers and the Stuka not using their bombs. The Stuka needs code more akin to the beau in order to fly alot higher over the flak and only dive to fire its mg at range and drop a bomb when on target, always for armored vehicles and sometimes for light vehicles and infantry. It should use the single large bomb for entrenched targets and the smaller ones for other targets.
It should also turn on its divehorn once it 'decides' to strafe and only put it off once its dropped its bombs or passed the target.

Rocket planes should use rockets on tanks, cannon on other vehicles and infantry and ALL planes should user mg for ranging attacks on enemy planes and cannon at closer ranges.


Artillery
With tanks firing from as far as they do, I really think bots should be able to man howitzers at least with even greater line of sight and use AP for tanks and HE for everything else. Mortar might be tricky with its elevation, but perhaps what currently exists needs to be worked on to get them aiming right and seeing further - Perhaps not as far as howitzers, but far enough.

Bots should either see these as high priority, jumping on it as soon as they see it, get their new line of sight, and fire once enemy units are in range, after which time they lose interest and bail  OR a modification needs to be made to make them heat-up or something so that bots remain on them indefinitely but would fire a number of shots and the gun would overheat and needs to cool before firing again. What to do is to make the gun heat-up slowly so that you can fire a number of shots, but cool down way slower unless its overheated at which time it cools down a bit faster. That way, the heat takes time to build, but won't go down faster than the gun overheats from continuous firing, and then cool down relatively fast so that after about 5 minutes the gunner is ready to fire again - This might be especially useful for mortar since it fires quite fast and will be serious rape if left to fire indefinitely.

Enemy bots need to see these like AT guns i.e fire on and kill bot manning them, get in close, use knife.


Outstanding issue
Bots using the 2pounder and hanomag mg34 as well the PAK35 have a repeat sound which seems to occur as a result of the bot trying to fire between shots so what you get is a firing sound in between real shots. Yes, its a bug with bots using these guns.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Drawde on 05-02-2010, 17:02:33
Some very good points there - hope the FH2 developers are reading this thread!

My mini-mod (see post with download link) addresses some of issues you mention, at least partially. In particular, AI tanks are very rarely reluctant to fire at either enemy tanks or troops (if anything, they're a bit too deadly, at least with AI difficulty on 100%) and will use both shells, MGs and HE.
I've set AT guns to have a higher defensive priority than tanks, but a lower offensive priority, so bots will man them when their CP is under attack, but ignore them when they're on the offensive.

Bots still seem really reluctant to use mounted MGs, though!
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 06-02-2010, 03:02:19
Quote
...They use too much smoke grenades and hardly any grenades...
On PDH, they use normal 'nades brilliantly...they're quite good at using them on that pesky human who hides behind rocks and in craters... ;)

Maybe the bots with the smoke 'nades are just more inclined to use them compared to bots with normal 'nades?

Whatever the reason, I like it and I don't want it to change. If I'm capping/defending a flag by myself, those smoke grenades are usually the difference between success and failure...

E.g. I'll be picking off bot after bot, then one or two will smoke me out and..."AAARGH!!! I'M BLIND!", cue the mad dash for cover...CRACK...*DEAD*... ;D
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 07-02-2010, 17:02:27
So I thought italians don't throw nades, right? And I saw something flying at me in Giarabub today and thought nothing of it cuz.. Italians don't throw nades, right? Right?

WRONG! Blasted thing blew me and a Universal carrier to smithereens!

Also was looking at a hapless infantryman manning a mortar piece outside the gates and thought, poor lad - Might as well put em out of 'is misery befo' 'e spends his enitire time doing absolutely nothing. Walls were high, 'chap couldn't see nothing... (Yer, I tend to role play for up to 15minutes after a round..*jk*)

Then it dawned on me... To use any gear or kit, a unit must have a range of vision, right? as well as a perspective ON the said gear or kit, yeS? SO, why don't we put the perspective of mortar pieces high up in the air for bots... in a straight line high above the gun so that they are esencially looking down on the battlefield from the spot on the map where the piece is. Would that give them a better perspective of enemy units and hence be able to hit them even if they can't directly see them from the ground?

I mean mortar is supposed to be lobed-artillery - Would kinda suck if bots need to see the target first. Was impressed with mortar on PDH earlier today too... but i realised it only worked for the americans since the piece was at a lower elevation from the pass and so Germans couldn't see americans till they were right ontop of the mortar piece but the Americans using it COULD see all the way up the tree line and use it on the nebelwerfer spawn base.

So whaddya think? Do-able?
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 08-02-2010, 09:02:59
...Bots still seem really reluctant to use mounted MGs, though!
Hmm...generally yes, but they're not shy about using them on Aberdeen, esp. the one in the bunker at Strongpoint A.


Quote
...SO, why don't we put the perspective of mortar pieces high up in the air for bots...
You might be on to something there...just relocating the POV/camera should be an easy fix, IF it can be done.


EDIT: Actually, scratch that first comment. I just played a round on El Al., there were bots sitting on MG's around Mit. Ridge and I was shot outta the sky by a bot on the MG on top of the hill (flag on the left)... :P

The following round on Fall of Tobruk they were manning the MG's on both sides of Mussolini Piazza.

The round after that (Luttich) I saw one sitting on the MG in the main street and another one on the MG north of the main street (next to where the pushie spawns).

I'm getting the impression that the bots will happily man the MG's under certain conditions. Not sure what those conditions are though...

I would say that it's when there's enemys within range of the MG and the bot is close to it, but I've seen them jump on the MG at the first flag below the British main on Aberdeen when there's no enemys nearby. Likewise I've seen them standing right next to a MG when there's enemys within its range and they ignore it completely (which is far more common)... :-\
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 08-02-2010, 15:02:36
Here's what I know: the bots will almost always man the mg15 being able to shoot down planes with deadly accuracy.
They rarely, but do man the mg34 stationary bipod n tripod, bt Im yet to see them use the kit.

They never use the mg42 bi or tripod position though they do use the mg42 kit at range. 
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 10-02-2010, 18:02:53
Hey, I actually got a bot ot mount a deployable mortar kit, but you would cause a CTD if try to displace him, after all, you can't displace a player with a deployable kit ingame, so I can imagine this would enter a loophole in the game, since the piece/ gun should dissapear if the player/bot abandons it

Something the devs might want to take a look at

Bots don't use other deployables though... definitely not mgs
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 11-02-2010, 11:02:33
Been loving the bots use of the mg34 kit and mortar. Held off a counter attack with one of my jerry bot mates on  deployed mortar kit in Luttich once he had capped Mortain.

and a mg34 killed my entire squad twice in the opening battle for Mortain. I had to fall back and we still took casualties. :-)

But here's the rub. Bots only fire mortar if the see a vehicle target. They don't see or care for infantry. Dawde should know about this to make modifications

And again, arty could definitely do with an elevated position. The mortar bots can't fire from behind a wall, which is the ideal place for mortar fire

EDIT:
Yes, I think if any inroads should be made into bots, it should be getting arty firing. LI think we've already surpassed the FH1 bots in most regards and like those bots, artillery firing would make up for their loss while any new improvements are being sought after

Elevated view point, if possible should go for all forms of arty, from mortars, to howitzers (rocket or shell artillery), to mobile artillery.

Alongside that, I think the big thing would be to fix the AI commander for all maps - A dev' problem, not a job for fan modders.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 11-03-2010, 19:03:18
I just had an AMAZING game in 2.25. My first as I was having problems installing. So (is this the place?) thanks to the FH bot coders for all their hard work so far. I really noticed it playing Fall of Tobruk  ;D.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Zoologic on 12-03-2010, 01:03:29
Fall of Tobruk is simply one of the best map out there. Even without the code modifications, they are fantastic already.

Need to try on more difficult maps like Sidi Rezegh or Operation Totalize.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 15-03-2010, 11:03:28
Hell, yer it is - Makes me feel like a real squad captain, moving from crater to crater with tank cover or surviving their weathering fire to hold the line (As Tommies)

And a navmeshing marvel considering the area. Probably the most complex map to navmesh, save for 'The Rainy-one'

Totalize is a helluva fun map too, even with only infantry - More so with Drawde's latest patch and murderous aircrafts firing HE and dropping bombs... Sadly it CTDs quite often -  'can't wait to see this one with tanks rolling

Sidi's cool too, but it plays best if you change the heavy British tanks to something like Crusers or more crusaders and then you get the historical equivalent with the British taking the entire space, holding off first and 2nd wave and finally being pushed back by overwhelming and superior panzer IVs and sneaky Panzer IIIs... Battlefield will change hands several times too - IF the Valentine and Matilda were taking out... Those things only work for gameplay if there are stukas on a map

SP in 2.25 is frankly the worst that came along with any release - too many bug issues hide the good additions like the genius of tanks not always firing on the move concealed by the bug that comes with it of them remaining stationary indefinitely... Thankfully, we have Drawde's minimod as a stopgap until the next patch... official or unofficial *cough, Winterhilf! cough*
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 25-03-2010, 10:03:53
I would say this for SP in Drawde's 1.1 patch. Whatever causes the Luttich map to CTD (And also in Beta Alam Halfa) as well as the reduced LOS of aircrafts and AA doesn't help. I'd suggest AA and plane code be reverted to 2.25's version... changing only the 88s ability to use the right shell kind and AA function as Anti-personnel. For the CTD however, i really hope we can identify it since it kills the only SP-supported normandy map that has armor and was stable...
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Drawde on 25-03-2010, 21:03:05
I really don't know what's causing the aircraft/AA LOS issue. I haven't made any changes to LOS for any game objects, in fact I'm not even sure it's possible to do so. It might be a typical case of BF2 AI randomness where one change alters something else totally unrelated; or maybe it's something to do with bombs working correctly and/or AA being able to fire at light vehicles.

The anti-tank rifles are another really odd thing - since a while ago (before which they were quite effective) bots seem unable to hit anything with these even at literally point-blank range. But I seem to be the only one with this issue, so it can't be due to any of my own modifications? (The only changes I made to the AT rifle data were the AI maximum range and target priority)

Have you (Djinn) modifed any of the .ai files in the FH2\AI directory? The current downloadable version of my minimod doesn't include any .ai files (and is intended to work with the default FH2.25 ones) so you may get some issues if the .ai files have been altered.

BTW I'm getting seriously sick of the Luttich CTD  >:(  - if it occurred during loading, or shortly after starting the game, it'd be fairly straightforward (if tedious) to fix by progressively removing modded files until the map worked. But since it CTDs anything from 10 to 45 minutes into the game, the cause is incredibly difficult to track down. The last couple of times it's happened have been after the vehicle I was in got hit by a bazooka/panzerschreck, but this is probably just coincidence.

I have managed to get bots to use the MG42 Lafette (disabled the "use no pathfinding" flag and set it to FixedGun so bots stayed on it) and bots defending West Mortain will often use it now.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 25-03-2010, 23:03:35
Pitty about the AA - Sorry I sounded like I was pointing an accusing finger, Drawde. You've already done so much for AI in FH2 since 2.25 - I was just going on the obvious conclusion

No, I haven't modified anything in my stock files. In fact, I had to reinstall FH2 recently and the only thing I added was the whizz from BF2 Vanilla. Bots fire and destroy light armor and I have seen them blow up a PzIV just today. They do miss often, but no more than zook or shrek at average firing distance and they have greatly increased range...

If the issue is with you alone as I haven't heard anything from CannonFodder, DJ Barney or Zoomotorpool, then its possibly just ill luck or you may have set AI difficulty lower than us... Try playing in COOP and set the AI difficulty to 80 or higher.

Before you made aircrafts fire their cannons again, I got the BF109 to fire bullets accurately enough to take out everyone in an APC and another time, to blow up a truck.. And that requires at least 3 - 4 good shots on target since trucks have wooden rear sections that don't take any damage... But this, only when I set AI difficulty to 100%...

Now I won't recommend testing on that level, but the default difficulty of 50% makes bots shamelessly inaccurate.

Perhaps for the Luttich issue we might all have to get involved. Let's post up some files to replace our stock Luttich objects file, each with a all vehicles removed but one (Each file with a different single vehicle ingame). With those with enough computer power, I will say set the bot count to something like 80 so we can speedup the simulation. Then play the level and see if it CTDs... We will clearly know what vehicle causes it in such a case.. But it will require all we SP enthusiasts. And fret not, Drawde - This one seems easier to spot than Goodwood's, which might be interraction with some corner of the map by a single bot and cannot be isolated in this fashion.

Here are some facts we do know about the Luttich CTD:
1/ According to some, it occurs when you go to the church base - I experienced this myself once and it seemed to much of a coincidence to be shrugged-off
2/ According to you (Drawde), it occurs when you are in a vehicle and got hit by a zook or faust.
3/ it occurs anything from 5 to 20 minutes ingame rather than during load or immediately the game starts, implying an action caused by either the player or a bot in the course of the battle.

Anyone want to prepare those replacement files for us to start this test?
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 26-03-2010, 18:03:49
Troubleshoot Luttich?

Jeezus djinn, you're keen aren't ya mate...haven't we got enough to do already?


 ;D

Don't mind me, just stirrin' ya... ;)

I haven't played FH since my last post about testing/removing AT guns in the "Headache formerly known as Goodwood". It was pissing me off too much, then I got sucked into Oblivion.

I've also been kinda hoping that 2.26 will come along and solve a few probs, if not provide a new SP map or two. Speaking of which...

I predict that FH 2.26 will be released on the 1st of April...but, just to fuck with us, the devs will post a dud DL link and they'll actually release it sometime during the following fortnight...



You heard it here first, folks... :)
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 26-03-2010, 22:03:48
Well, it might sound double-standards of me, but I think I'm going to drop out of SP testing for a while - It was tough as it was already running on a 1GB AMD 2005 Sempron as it was, and now with it clear that my PC issues aren't over... Yea, I have 5B of DDR3 RAM, a sweet graphic card with 700+ RAM.. but my troubles haven't ended.

And I'm too sick and tired, waiting for 10months only to get this shit - I think I will just stop playing FH for a while - It depresses me knowing the experience I should have and getting lag-lag instead

sorry guys
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 27-03-2010, 08:03:24
Don't want to get too OT, but it sounds to me like the new rig doesn't meet expectations? I sympathize...

I upgraded my good PC at Xmas and figured that going from a 2.4GHz dual-core CPU and 2GB of DDR RAM to a 3.0GHz dual-core and 2GB of DDR3 (1066 I think), together with my 9600GT, would let me run close to 64 lag-free bots...

No such luck...FPS started to drop with more than 48 (@max difficulty), only 17 more than I was running before the upgrade (31)... :(
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 27-03-2010, 17:03:54
I REALLY recommend going carefully through the guide at http://www.tweakguides.com/TGTC.html ... I thought I had hardware issues (with Crysis for example), but I went through this and found that I had multiple windows issues slowing everything down. Suddenly I could run BF2 with full antialiasing and Crysis even ran OK. The guide IS NOT A SCAM OR MARKETING TRICK and is written by a guy with a lot of integrity. Please try it ! It would be sad to lose any of the few SP'ers here just for some simple system issues. Cheers.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 27-03-2010, 22:03:32
Nothing to do with specs. My processor might'v fried with the former DOA board. So my chasing pc parts isnt over. besides being 1600 bucks already in dept, I dont just have the heart to keep playing a lagfest on the 1GB pc hoping the next time will really be it. And the forums keep that hope fresh... And i don't want to hope any longer.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Desertfox on 27-03-2010, 22:03:30
Nothing to do with specs. My processor might'v fried with the former DOA board. So my chasing pc parts isnt over. besides being 1600 bucks already in dept, I dont just have the heart to keep playing a lagfest on the 1GB pc hoping the next time will really be it. And the forums keep that hope fresh... And i don't want to hope any longer.
But these are the "Forgotten Hope" forums
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: cannonfodder on 28-03-2010, 07:03:38
Nothing to do with specs. My processor might'v fried with the former DOA board. So my chasing pc parts isnt over. besides being 1600 bucks already in dept, I dont just have the heart to keep playing a lagfest on the 1GB pc hoping the next time will really be it. And the forums keep that hope fresh... And i don't want to hope any longer.
But these are the "Forgotten Hope" forums
LOL...that's classic... ;D
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 28-03-2010, 18:03:47
I was actually feeling very down when I wrote that... Irony wasn't what I was going for

That said, I've managed to somehow decide to soldier on - Not because of anything inspirational I was told on the forums, or any change in my fortune - But simply because, what are you going to do...

I probably wont be the best tester though since i still run up to 32 bots and with reduced RAM for their logic... I hope my opinions will still represent the general observation considering that I should be seen as unreliable in regards to early feedback

Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: Michael Z Freeman on 03-04-2010, 18:04:19
Glad you're still here. I don't know why running a scaled down system should exclude you from beta testing, anything is helpful. In fact you could test the modifications for compatibility with slower systems.
Title: Re: Bot Infantry and vehicle AI in 2.25
Post by: djinn on 04-04-2010, 13:04:30
Yer, I see things happening in slo-mo.. I can almost tell what the bot is deciding before it final chooses its line of action.. that part is priceless

Well, I found out that my Processor isn't kaput as I thought so no need to shell out to buy a new Core-i7. Just need to figure out why my Desktop wont startup... might be a cheaper solution...

Got some feedback though, going to post it up right now... So yer, I'm definitely still here

Updated check:
With the latest of Drawde's patches, I've noted a change in the handling of fighter aircrafts and Aa guns... I recall that in raw 2.2, AA although quite alert was rather inaccurate which gave aircrafts a chance. Also the 88 was probably more accurate than most AA guns, balanced only by a slow rate of fire and infantry's ability to take it out while it focused on armor and air targets. Now however, planes seem to only dive for a strafing run shortly before they are over a target making them very inaccurate and AA very dull and yet deadly accurate.

Here's my thinking since it seems clear we aren't aware of where the changes occured. Stukas strafe from the range fighters used to so i can imagine these values sufficing to give fighters that same behaviour once again. I would say, to balance their killing power, fighters should perform thus:
1/ Fighters will only use mg on exposed infantry firing from range to give them increased chance of a hit
2/ Fighters will use cannon on only concealed infantry under the same conditions infantry use grenades as well as light armor
3/ Fighters will engage other aircrafts with mg from range and use cannons only at close range to blow them away and prevent collision.. Also to make dogfights interesting - And I think real proficient fighters fought in that fashion
4/ Stukas will use mgs on exposed infantry targets and light vehicles
5/ Stukas will use bombs on gun positions, armored vehicles and concealed infantry
6/ Fighter-bombers will use bombs on armored targets, concealed infantry (As they would be using cannon on everything else already) and gun positions.


This will restore the balance of the fight making Stukas do more strafing runs rather than dropping bombs on single infantry targets

The 88 needs the exact values it had in 2.2 or 2.25 save for selectiing the correct salvo for each target kind - Currently it is dull, too inaccurate for armored targets and fires HE at only point blank range
AA guns need the exact values they had in 2.2 - Flakvielings might need to be handicapped slightly to make them slightly less deadly to infantry and aircrafts.

Also it seems like infantry no longer fire at exposed positions - Or only seem to fire at a few, usually because they are throwing grenades at armor that has these exposed positions or avoiding the target altogether. Infantry needs to use their handweapons on such targets as 88s, other AT, AA guns and rider-positions in vehicles including second seater positions in trucks and jeeps, rather than firing at the vehicle itself.

Also,
Any word on the experiment of raising the view point for artillery. Have German mortar been repaired for the next build?