Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Off-Topic => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Thorondor123 on 09-02-2012, 17:02:51
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"A Song of Ice and Fire is an ongoing series of epic fantasy novels by American novelist and screenwriter George R. R. Martin."
This is a rather large and famous series of books, and ever more since HBO turned the first book into miniseries and second series coming soon. I bet many of you have read the books so let's have a small chat about the series. Because hey, why not.
Disclaimer:
This might end up being me ranting, rambling and pondering various aspect to the point where no one else cares any more. But that's something we just have to live with.
INTRODUCTION:
The books in the series:
A Game of Thrones (1996)
A Clash of Kings (1998)
A Storm of Swords (2000)
A Feast For Crows (2005)
A Dance With Dragons (2011)
The Winds of Winter (TBA)
A Hope of Spring (TBA)
HBO miniseries based on the first book aired last year and second series will air this spring. I'm not going there now other than saying that it's one of the best film/TV versions of any book ever made. Recommended.
Like said, ASoIAF epic high fantasy series. I have described it as a mix of The Lord of The Rings and Dune, or more like Dune set in a fantasy setting. While it's clearly high fantasy, the world is close to Middle-earth at the end of the third age. The dragons are supposedly extinct, and magic is thin on the ground. Sorcery is mostly limited to trickery of hedge wizards, and true wizards are either really rare or live in far away lands.
More outlandish creatures are the white walkers, the "Others". And reanimated dead, the wights (as in LoTR).
Most of the story is set in the continent of Westeros. More than a dozen years before the start of the first book Robert Baratheon started a rebellion to overthrow Aerys II Targaryen, the delusional and cruel "Mad King". The Targaryen dynasty had ruled The Seven Kingdoms for three hundred years since Aegon the Conqueror had invaded the land and united the seven independent kingdoms. The conclusive battle, "Field of Fire" was one of the last major battles where dragons were used.
Game of Thrones starts as King Robert rides North to meet his old friend from the rebellion. Lord Eddard Stark, the Warden of North, is nominated as the Hand of The King, the second most powerful man in the realm. It turns out, that there was more than few suspicious things about the death of the old Hand. Lord Stark, driver by his utmost devotion to honour and loyalty, can't refuse the "offer" and rides south to take the office.
Eddard Stark starts to investigate the death of the former Hand, and finds plots within plots, spies, poison and corruption. At the same time in the east, a Targaryen heir is trying raise an army and claim the throne from the usurper. A Song of Ice And Fire is as much about politics and scheming as it is about warfare and adventures. It is to fantasy what Dune is to Sci-Fi.
My introduction might not the the best possible, but if that sounds even remotely interesting, get a copy of Game of Thrones (or watch the series if that's your thing). I would recommend reading the book first, though. This is also the part where people who have not read the series should stop reading.
The story is massive and so many things are left open that I would like to see if others who have read the series have anything to say or analyse. The are two books left and an unlimited way how the story could unfold. It's impossible to fathom what will happen, but I have gathered a hypothesis from various little bits amongst the story. Would be nice to hear what others think of it and hear their own thoughts.
SPOILERS!
WARNING! The following will spoil everything up to the end of A Dance With Dragons. Do not read if you have not read all the books. This WILL also spoil the HBO series!
ICE AND FIRE
What I think the story is about:
Basically: I think that Jon Snow is ICE, and Daenerys Targaryen is FIRE.
First, let's take a look at Jon. He is the bastard son of Ned Stark. We do not know who his mother is, and Ned took that information with him to the grave.* I boldly claim, that I know who his mother is. I even go so far that I clam that Ned Stark is not his father.
*more about this later
Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark (ice) and Rhaegar Targaryen (fire). Lyanna and Rhaegar had been lovers since the tourney at Harrenhall. Rhaegar was the heir and married to Elia. Lyanna was promised to Robert Baratheon.
The official story says that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. This of course leads to the Robert's rebellion. But I do not think it happened like that. Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together.
During the war, Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy, guarded by THREE best swords of the Kingsguard. That's right, even living legends like "Sword of the Morning" and "White Bull" were not with the king or on Rhaegars side at the Trident when he died. He sent them to guard the woman he loved.
After the episode with the Kingslayer in the throne room, Ned rode to south to rescue Lyanna. After defeating the three members of the Kingsguard, Ned found Lyanna. He was too late, she was dying after giving birth to Jon. Before dying, she make Ned to promise her something. We do not know what it was, but it haunted Ned for the rest of his life. What I think he promised is that he would take care of the baby and raise him as his own son. The only person who might know anything is Ned's best friend, Howland Reed. He was the only survivor from the Tower of Joy and he has not left the Neck afterwards.
Fast forward to the end of ADWD:
Did Jon really die? Maybe. We he stay dead? No.
1) If it really was Jon who got stabbed, and died from his wounds, there are many factors worth noting. He was assassinated in plain sight of everyone, including the free men, queen's men and most importantly Melisandre. She is a red priestess and as we know (what Thoros of Myr did to Beric Dondarrion) they can resurrect people. She will save Jon.
2) It wasn't Jon. He was someone else "masked" as Jon by Melisandre. Like he turned Mance Rayder into Rattleshirt. Whoever it was, he was clumsy with sword, not like Jon at all. And it didn't fool everyone; Ghost growled at "Jon".
Of dreams and prophecies:
Jon Snow, the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, is Azor Ahai.
"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."
- In the end of ADWD, the elements of the prophecy are present: "Smoke" from Jon's wounds, and "salt" from Bowen Marsh's tears. The bleeding star was Ser Patrek bleeding and swung in air by Wun-Wun the giant, his heraldic symbol being a star.
- Jon dreamed of a burning red sword (Lightbringer).
- What Melisandre said when she tried to see Stannis (who she thinks is Azor Ahai) in the fires: "When I search for him, all I see is snow."
Jon Snow.
COCLUSION
Like said, it is impossible to tell what the old geezer has in mind for the story. But if my hypothesis is correct, we might see Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen reuniting the bloodlines of houses Stark and Targaryen, bringing peace to the Seven Kingdoms and beating the Others beyond the Wall.
Or something completely different.
That's it. That is whay I have gathered by reading the books. I hope someone else has also read the books and share my enthusiasm. I would be nice to hear other's opinions and long ramblings, and to hear what you think of my wild suggestions. If not, well, this thread will serve as a diary or a blog for me ;D
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Like I said in the "Book Club"-thread, I started reading the series (or saga? ^^) late last year and was immediately an addict. If you´re into "low fantasy" and realistic (=not black/white) characters "ASOIAF" will be one hell of a literary ride!
I´ve read your "Ice and Fire"-theory in other forums as well and it honestly makes lots of sense. I´d love to see Westeros united under Jons and Danaerys banner, but I fear that Martin, who doesn´t hesitate to let characters, who seem to be important simply die, might find an unpleasing ending for the series.
Imagine the Red Wedding, but simply on a greater scale. :/
2) It wasn't Jon. He was someone else "masked" as Jon by Melisandre. Like he turned Mance Rayder into Rattleshirt. Whoever it was, he was clumsy with sword, not like Jon at all. And it didn't fool everyone; Ghost growled at "Jon".
That´s a detail I didn´t know yet. I really have to re-read the books, because they contain so many small details and hints which you either don´t understand or don´t see if you read the books for the first time.
I quite liked Jons "death scene", btw. Reminded me a bit if Julius Caesars death, who was stabbed to death by a mob of conspirators.
I´d also like to know what happened to Brienne. I bet she´s got an interesting story to tell, too.
And my main concern is that Martin might not be able to end the saga, for whatever reason. He wouldn´t be the first writer who died before finishing his works.... :/
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How much does this actually borrow from the historical War of the Roses, expect the obvious initial setup: Seven Kingdoms = England, Aegon the Conqueror = William the Conqueror, Targaryen = Plantagenet, Lannister = Lancaster (a bit too easy if you ask me), Stark = York, Mad King = Henry VI, etc.?
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Thorondor's ASoIAF blog, part 2.
Once again, this will spoil everything. Don't read if you have not finished A Dance With Dragons.
I'm re-reading (or rather listening to the audio books) at the moment. Last night I came across on of the Arya chapters in A Storm of Swords. It was something I had forgotten completely since I first read the book:
At High Heart, where Arya and members of the Brotherhood Without Banners are spending then night, they talk to the "Ghost of High Heart". She is an ancient red-eyed dwarf woman, and most like has greensight. She tells Lem, Tom O'Sevens, etc. about three dream she had.
- She predicts the death of Renly Baratheon.
- She predicts the death and resurrection of Lady Catelyn
- She predicts the death of Balon Greyjoy, which in my opinion is the most interesting one. "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."
I had forgotten this completely when I first read about Cately and Balon, but now on the second time the situation gets waaay more interesting. Looks like that Balon did not just fall of the bridge during a storm. He was murdered by a Faceless Man commissioned by his brother Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy.
Can't wait to see more details that I missed during the first read-through ;D
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Almost at the end of ASOS. By the Seven, what a book! So many stuff happens and it's so well-written. Not to mention all the things colliding. And I really like Jaime, feel sort of sorry for him.
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That reminds me, need to buy the next book. Read the first three and then paused for a bit for various reasons.
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Getting ADWD for my birthday, which is in early September.. I fear I am finished before that though, these books suck me up.
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Great books! I can only suggest that everyone with a touch of Fantasy in them to read them!
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I have finished the first book and i have recieved today in the mail the second book.
The series is awesome and amazing. the books even better
i advise first to watch a season of the serie, then the book when the season is over
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I wonder if Martin is really into layered metaphors. Perhaps snow is snow :)
Just finished the books. The next wait is unbearable.
I hope to see more if Catelyn and her merry band of murders. What part will Bran play. Where is his brother Rickon and his escort. And what a great come back of Varys, just when you thought you were rid of Cersei :P
On the real Mother of Jon, it was said he was conceived when Ned was brought across a river escaping from foes, but the theory that he is Lyanna son is more exciting :)
On theories, does it seem to obvious that the dark rider who travels with Bran is his presumed dead uncle Benjen?
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aaaaaaaaaaaaaand i read a spoiler...fuck
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Rickon an Osha are on Skagos. Davos is sent to retrieve them.
Varys... I did not see that one coming. But I think I like the fact that he is Aegon VI's man.
Coldhands might be Benjen, yes. The three-eyed crow in most likely Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, the grandson of Aegon IV.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand i read a spoiler...fuck
Good job you noob. Go ahead, read this post too :P
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Nice try ;D
finishing book 2 in 54 pages :)
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Surely Bran would have recognised Coldhands if he was Benjen Stark?
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Read a cool theory about Jon Snow being the long-sought Azor Ahai.
If you re-read the last Jon chapter in Dance, you´ll notice that there are some small things that are an important part of the whole Azor-Ahai prophecy:
A bleeding star (that knight who got killed by the giant has stars on his doublet and is bleeding), salt (Bowen Marshs salty tears) and smoke (Jons smoking wound). Now Jon only needs to be reborn, somehow.
Maybe some fans are just developing crazy schemes, but I kinda feel that Martin didn´t hide those things in the chapter by accident.
Also, I´ve discovered a cool blog (http://adwd-reread.blogspot.de/) where a guy is re-reading Dance and analyses the book, chapter by chapter.
I´ve finished my re-read of the series and the blog was a great help to get more into Dance and uncover the things I didn´t noticed when I first read it, like Dany miscarrying, the Jon=Azor Ahai theory etc.
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Read a cool theory about Jon Snow being the long-sought Azor Ahai.
If you re-read the last Jon chapter in Dance, you´ll notice that there are some small things that are an important part of the whole Azor-Ahai prophecy:
A bleeding star (that knight who got killed by the giant has stars on his doublet and is bleeding), salt (Bowen Marshs salty tears) and smoke (Jons smoking wound). Now Jon only needs to be reborn, somehow.
Reborn somehow? How about the red priestess that happens to hang around there..? ;)
Anyway, my thought on this matter are in the first post.
Surely Bran would have recognised Coldhands if he was Benjen Stark?
Coldhands' face was covered. :/
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didnt read your topic
watching hbo atm 2/8 so far and that invasion - mh - im dissapointed. LOTR has and will always have best battle scenes
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didnt read your topic
watching hbo atm 2/8 so far and that invasion - mh - im dissapointed. LOTR has and will always have best battle scenes
http://fhpubforum.warumdarum.de/index.php?topic=17007.0
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Then you are propably watching GoT for wrong reasons Irish...
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ah didnt see the other topic - no series is great ! just that battle could be better to symbolize the amount of attacking troops :)
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I am glad of thing, Stannis being dead, I was sick of his teeth grinding, his total lack of empathy and he would never step out of the shadow of his brother. Both of them :P Good riddance.
How did I miss that Rickon an Osha are on Skagos ? I thought the Onion Knight was sent for Lord blubber belly hostages. So he could safely kill the flayer and Frey's at Winterfell. He was so jolly during dinner I was kinda hoping for "Red Wedding" 2.0
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1. I am glad of thing, Stannis being dead, I was sick of his teeth grinding, his total lack of empathy and he would never step out of the shadow of his brother. Both of them :P Good riddance.
2. How did I miss that Rickon an Osha are on Skagos ? I thought the Onion Knight was sent for Lord blubber belly hostages. So he could safely kill the flayer and Frey's at Winterfell. He was so jolly during dinner I was kinda hoping for "Red Wedding" 2.0
1. Stannis dead? Nah, I don't think so.
2. End of Davos' last chapter in ADWD.
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Lord "Blubber" is actually a major player in the game. He seems like a lethargic, scared, fat piece of suet, but behind that facade he´s a grand schemer. I guess, when the time is right, we´ll see another civil war, this time in the north. The pale-eyed flayer and those Frey bastards will definately pay for what they´ve done.
We don´t get a clear hint to where Davos is sent, but the other hints, like the travel direction Osha and Rickon are taking, and Davos remark, that he´s going "where canibals live" (or something like that), hint that he´s sent to Skaggos. Can´t wait to read more about that island, especially since GRRM has announced that Osha will be a POV-character in "Winds of Winter".
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I'm hoping that we'll see unicorns ;D
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1. I am glad of thing, Stannis being dead, I was sick of his teeth grinding, his total lack of empathy and he would never step out of the shadow of his brother. Both of them :P Good riddance.
2. How did I miss that Rickon an Osha are on Skagos ? I thought the Onion Knight was sent for Lord blubber belly hostages. So he could safely kill the flayer and Frey's at Winterfell. He was so jolly during dinner I was kinda hoping for "Red Wedding" 2.0
1. Stannis dead? Nah, I don't think so.
2. End of Davos' last chapter in ADWD.
What, you believe the bastard flayer would lie about that? Mayhaps it more me hoping then really true. But right now we have so many people contending for the Iron Throne, one less wouldn't hurt ;D
By the way my book didn't have a preview chapter for the next book, anyone know where it can be found?
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Lord "Blubber" is actually a major player in the game. He seems like a lethargic, scared, fat piece of suet, but behind that facade he´s a grand schemer. I guess, when the time is right, we´ll see another civil war, this time in the north.
I don't think he's really a player, he just wants revenge for the red wedding. Sure, he's not weak just because he's crippled, but if you've read these books you probably already saw that coming (seems to be a common theme across half a dozen characters).
As for the civil war, I think we'll see that right at the start of The Winds of Winter. Remember, Bolton's 'allies' rode out to engage Stannis in Reek's last Chapter. Reek's escape may have delayed things, but in the end they'll still ride out. I don't think Ramsey's letter is true at all. If he defeated Stannis, surely he would have Reek and Jeyne.
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Wasn't there also a preview chapter with stannis?
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Lightning, it depends on how you define "player".
To me, he´s behind more than "just" revenge for his killed son and the whole Red Wedding thing. He already killed three Freys, baked them into pies and served them his enemies. If he´d be that simple, he´d most likely be content with that.
But if you read Davos´ chapters about White Harbor, you´ll see that he´s behind some cunning planing. He has secretly rebuilt his fleet and is preparing for war. He´s playing the fat craven while at the same time keeping Davos alive, despite the royal order to execute him, and sends him on a mission to retrieve the "last" Stark heir, whom he wants to reinstall as true heir of Winterfell and probably King in the North.
This is more ambitious than simple revenge and because of those cunning long-term goals he´s a "player" in my eyes. His goal are major political changes. Sure, revenge plays a big part, but it´s not his sole motivation.
EDIT:
Here´s (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html) the sample chapter Martin released. Apparently it´s from Theons POV. Haven´t read it yet, because I don´t want to spoil Winds for myself. ;)
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I felt a little bit sad about quenten's death and also about the fact that jon connington is diseased while Tyrion, which was one of my favourite characters until he murdered his father, is alive and well.
If he defeated Stannis, surely he would have Reek and Jeyne.
I don't think that Bolton's troops reached that far as they also lacked horses and Mors Umber was lurking 3 miles away of Winterfell and sent those two prisoners to Stannis. I hope Mors and Manderly took on those foul Freys and killed them.
Concerning the theories of Lighting about Jon and Daenerys:
I think Melisandre could revive Jon to make him the true "Reborn", but I don't think that he will team up with her.
I am eagerly awaiting Victarions story about his dragon hunt.
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Cool quiz. How many of the 300 most-mentioned characters in A Song of Ice and Fire can you name in 20 minutes?
http://www.sporcle.com/games/Sforzando/song-of-ice-and-fire-top-300
I got 143, missing 2 from the first column.
(There's also a top 100, but it contains spoilers: http://www.sporcle.com/games/Sforzando/song-of-ice-and-fire-top-100)
I found this by trying to find out how many characters there are in A Song of Ice and Fire. Does anyone know? The 300th most mentioned is mentioned 33 times, so I figure it's quite a lot more than 300.)
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Cool quiz. How many of the 300 most-mentioned characters in A Song of Ice and Fire can you name in 20 minutes?
http://www.sporcle.com/games/Sforzando/song-of-ice-and-fire-top-300
I got 143, missing 2 from the first column.
(There's also a top 100, but it contains spoilers: http://www.sporcle.com/games/Sforzando/song-of-ice-and-fire-top-100)
I found this by trying to find out how many characters there are in A Song of Ice and Fire. Does anyone know? The 300th most mentioned is mentioned 33 times, so I figure it's quite a lot more than 300.)
Over 500 "speaking roles".
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http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html
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http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html
And that would be a chapter from The Winds of Winter, so some people might not want to read it yet.
Also, move this post from the Game of Throne thread to here.
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(http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/6511800_460s.jpg)
George R r martin in an nutshell
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*** *** *** SPOILERS (up to ADWD) AND THEORIES (for after) *** *** ***
I've been reading the wikipedia article on the War of the Roses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Roses) and I'm noticing the huge correlations between it and A Song of Ice and Fire.
No spoilers in this bit if you're up to date on the HBO series
Mainly though, I noted the following:
First off, it is obvious that the House of Lannister represents the House of Lancaster and the House of Stark the House of York.
Now Robb Stark is in my opinion clearly Edward IV, Duke of York. First, his father Richard, Duke of York (Eddard Stark) is killed by the Lancastrians at the Battle of Wakefield in 1460. Notably, Richard's head is mounted on the walls of York by Queen Margaret, wife to King Henry VI. Edward IV subsequently wins a victory over the Lancastrians and is crowned King of England, based on the fact that the has a better claim to the throne than the Lancastrians.
As King however, he secretly marries Elizabeth Woodville (Jeyne Westerling), the widow of a Lancastrian knight. This (among other things) enrages his old supporter, the Earl of Warwick, who had been trying to set him up with a French bride. Eventually, he betrays Edward IV and joins forces with (ex-) Queen Margaret to restore Henry VI to the throne. Here we deviate from A Song of Ice and Fire, as Edward IV is not killed, but rather becomes king again later.
Here come the spoilers
Now my theory is that the Earl of Warwick is Roose Bolton. Another fact that links him to this character is that his army and Edward IV's army fought separately against the Lancastrians, with Edward winning at the Battle of Mortimer's Cross (in A Song of Ice and Fire the battle of the whispering woods) and Warwick losing the Second Battle of St Albans (in the books the Battle of the Green Fork), but surviving and later linking up with Edward again.
At any rate what is interesting is the battle in which Warwick is slain. This is the Battle of Barnet which was fought at 4 in the morning in thick mist. The Lancastrian army outnumbers the Yorkist army almost 2 to 1. As both armies advance, the nearly miss each other, the left flank of either army meeting the centre of the other. In the thick mist however, the "star and rays" sigil of the Earl of Oxford is mistaken for the "sun in splendor" sigil of Edward IV by the recently turned Marquess of Montagu's men, who subsequently attack their own Lancastrian allies. The Earl of Oxford then starts fighting Montagu's men, thinking they have switched sides again and the Lancastrians ultimately lose the battle. The Earl of Warwick is cut down as he tries to mount his horse.
Oddly enough, we find ourselves at the end of A Dance with Dragons with an impending battle in the snow, with a 'Lannister army' led by Roose Bolton about to attack the army of Stannis Baratheon. Although they outnumber them, the Freys and Manderlys are already at eachother's throats with the allegiance of the Manderlys being very questionable.
My theory is that the parallels continue and that Roose Bolton's men start fighting each other in the snow, after which his army is defeated and Roose Bolton is killed.
Do note I have carefully avoided any spoilers from the already released chapters of The Winds of Winter, so it may be you already know I'm completely off. If so, please don't tell me.
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Too bad, I kind of like Roose Bolton.
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Nice summary and theory Jasper.
This could very well hold true. :)
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I think it was written somewhere in the inside flap of my book that he is inspired by the War of the roses.
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Theme song remade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHYYJ8kmsnk
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So mutilation, killing, dismemberment and decapitation is okay, but a dick is too much?
Okay.
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I think the Manderly betrayal will be very obvious. I think it's part of a much grander Northern scheme. Tiny hints have been given everywhere. Stannis is King but Robb named one heir. One heir..
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And finished rereading the five volumes. I cannot believe how much you forget.
SPOILERS AHEAD ******* BE WARNED
John being attacked. Varys making his sudden re-appearance. And Aegon being alive.
What will happen to John? A kiss of life from Melisandre mayhaps ...
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Either he didn't die or he will warg into Ghost. GRRM once said he hates reviving characters (like Tolkien did with Gandalf) and the effects are clearly shown on Beric Dondarrion who at one point has no idea who he is or what he is doing.