Author Topic: Canada buys F-35s  (Read 4996 times)

Offline siben

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #30 on: 19-07-2010, 01:07:05 »
stealth and uav are good enough for the contained wars against third world countries, but once you fight a war against a worldpower like China or Russia, first thing they do is blow the satelites out of the sky , including the GPS ones, which the US military relies too much on.

The problem is, other countries also use our GPS for their military operations, including countries that we might be fighting.

Europe is building its own at the moment and it should be operational within a few years (only europe at he moment, not the rest of the world), and IIRC Russia already has there own system that is basicly the same as GPS.

Offline MaJ.P.Bouras

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #31 on: 19-07-2010, 01:07:49 »
Sukhoi T50 what do you say about this plane? I heard it will be better than a F22 Raptor ?? As i've read somewhere it can go supersonic without the need of afterburn use.Although it is currently at prototype level...

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #32 on: 19-07-2010, 01:07:37 »
Re the F-117 shootdown, it's still debated whether the Serbs modified their radars to help detect the F-117 when it (briefly) opened its weapon bay doors on its attack run, or did they simply shoot by visually sighting with an IR tracker or night vision. The F-117's had until then used fixed "corridors" to fly in and out of target areas, and those fixed corridors would have made them also extremely vulnerable to radars, stealth or no stealth, and even detection by the plain old Mark 1, Mod 0 eyeball.

Re the UAV's and their reliance on satellites, read a couple of articles of US Predators & Reapers in Afghanistan. What people might not realize is that in case of satellite failure there is always a full piloting team near the frontlines ready to take over through direct radio link. Also, landings and take-offs are always conducted by this team, to avoid the lag, and with the purpose-defeating direct control input. Nevermind that the drone could do this better than a human, it's just a political decision to have human input when taking off/landing. Also, current software allows the drones to acquire targets independently, basically if in "combat mode" they will pick up the nearest laser designation (on an allowed frequency) and manoeuver into attack position, again the human "pilot" is only required pull the trigger both for practical (target ID and confirmation) and political, not for any technical reasons. The only part a UAV cannot (yet) do itself is target designation.

Very few nations have any anti-satellite capability by the way, and taking out enough GPS and communication satellites to make a noticeable effect would be a challenge even for the superpowers. Also, the Chinese, Russian and Indian kill vehicles are essentially modified ICBM's (instead of a pimped SAM like the American SM-3 or an airplane-launched rocket like the ASAT of old or the Russian system in development), and in the case of a shooting war, I certainly wouldn't launch several ICBM's and assume that the opponent believes I'm just firing kinetic projectiles at their satellites.

Yes, F-35 will likely be in service sooner than it could be fully replaced with UAV's. Most likely, some tasks simply cannot be performed by an UAV in the foreseeable future and will have to be handled by manned aircraft. However, the question remains, do you need a non-stealth stealth fighter full of compromises costing several times as much as a regular fighter, or a "conventional" aircraft to perform the said roles? And even though you would have logistically easier having one plane do all the combat roles, can it really deliver good enough results as opposed to more specialized plane types?

Offline [WDW]Megaraptor

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #33 on: 19-07-2010, 01:07:01 »

Europe is building its own at the moment and it should be operational within a few years (only europe at he moment, not the rest of the world), and IIRC Russia already has there own system that is basicly the same as GPS.

Russia does have its own GLONASS system but China IIRC currently piggy-backs on the American system.

The hardest part about shooting down a GPS satellite would be shooting down ones in other places. Remember GPS satellites are in geostationary orbit which means they are far enough away from the earth so that they orbit at the same speed the earth is turning. China might could shoot down the GPS satellites over its own territory with its new ASAT missile, but shooting down satellites stationed over other countries would be far more difficult.

Also with regards to the F-117A shootdown I remember reading somewhere that the plane may have been wet when it was shot down after flying through rain and that being wet reduces its stealth characteristics. Is there any truth to this?

« Last Edit: 19-07-2010, 01:07:41 by [WDW]Megaraptor »

Offline siben

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #34 on: 19-07-2010, 02:07:29 »
Well, water reflects radar otherwise there would be no weather radar...

So it could have an effect, but does being wet make such a difference? My common sense says no, there is a difference between being wet (and how long would a plane be wet in flight anyway, you would think a 500+ km/h wind on a hard surface would make you dry in a matter of seconds, and a storm would be a very good cover from radar with all the fake signals) and a massive downpour.

Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #35 on: 19-07-2010, 02:07:32 »
The hardest part about shooting down a GPS satellite would be shooting down ones in other places. Remember GPS satellites are in geostationary orbit which means they are far enough away from the earth so that they orbit at the same speed the earth is turning. China might could shoot down the GPS satellites over its own territory with its new ASAT missile, but shooting down satellites stationed over other countries would be far more difficult.
GPS satelites are in the zone just above low earth orbit.  They are nowhere near far enough out to be geostationary.  So it would take a few days I think, but you could shoot them all down over your land.

I'm not even sure if these anti-satelite rockets would even be able to reach geo-stationary orbit.

Offline [WDW]Megaraptor

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #36 on: 19-07-2010, 03:07:29 »

GPS satelites are in the zone just above low earth orbit.  They are nowhere near far enough out to be geostationary.  So it would take a few days I think, but you could shoot them all down over your land.

Hmm...it seems that you are right and it seems that geostationary satellites must be placed over the equator. So a geostationary system could not provide full coverage in the far north and south.

However GPS satellites are in what is called Medium Earth Orbit at about 20,000 km out from the earth (LEO is 160-2000 km, Geostationary is 35,000). So they're closer to Geostationary than they are to LEO.

GPS constellation:


Offline Eat Uranium

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #37 on: 19-07-2010, 03:07:44 »
That far out?  Well, I never knew that.

I wonder where they launch from to get retrograde orbits.  Though saying that, I've looked at that gif now for 2 minutes and I actually have less idea of the 3D shape than when I started.
« Last Edit: 19-07-2010, 03:07:06 by Eat Uranium »

Offline siben

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #38 on: 19-07-2010, 03:07:18 »
try this site, explains it rather clear.
http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/orbits.htm

Offline [WDW]Megaraptor

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #39 on: 19-07-2010, 04:07:41 »
That far out?  Well, I never knew that.

I wonder where they launch from to get retrograde orbits. 

According to Astronautix.com the first 11 Block 1 development satellites were launched from Vandenberg AFB in California, but since then all launches have been from Cape Canaveral.

Offline DLFReporter

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #40 on: 19-07-2010, 09:07:50 »
A lot of nations are building their own GPS system nowadays, which is quite sensible if you rely on the system for almost everything and then the US goes to war again and suddenly the service is shut down or reduced in quality.

Anyhow imo (and I am saying this as an aeronautical engineer) the age of fighters is over. Any investment there is like burning money. We have drones that can do the job cheaper and more efficient with less risk to a costly trained pilot.
Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off

Offline von.small

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #41 on: 19-07-2010, 10:07:59 »
I watched a program yesterday about how future airwar will take place.  The hypothetical scenario put the Co-allition forces flying F-22 (Raptor), F-35 (Lightening), and B-1 (Lancer), MQ-1 (Predator) into attack against an heavily defended country with an extensive SAM network, Rafele and Mig 29s.

The F-22 using stealth - break through small corridors in the SAM network
The MQ-1 predators deliberatley trip the SAM network, lighting up SAM sites on radar to for the F-35s
The predators are immediatley shot down by the SAMs - and Rafele /Migs scrambled
F-35s attack the SAM sites knocking a wider hole in the network for B-1s to continue to main target
F-22 are already in position to deal with or divert the Rafele/ Mig who have taken to the sky
As the F-22 are stealthed, they do not appear on Rafele or Mig radar unless in visual contact, the F-35s are faint but the B-1s (not stealthed) show up - chances are someone will go after the B-1s.
The F-35s get radar contact on any Rafele or Mig that break through the F-22 formation and relay the enemy positions to the B-1 - it's the B-1 that does a lot of the firing from miles and miles away, the F-35s essentially play a forward eyes only role.

So having read a lot of the comments, yes the F-35 is shitty compared to most other aircraft in the sky - but you are putting it into a plane vs plane scenario, which future wars will not nesessarily be fought like this, it will be joint operations between aircraft skilled in different roles.
HadrianBT - Why the hell would "Germany" attack pigmy ppl??!!
Thorondor123 - I agree that people are not wearing enough hats

Offline [WDW]Megaraptor

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #42 on: 19-07-2010, 12:07:33 »
Not much new about that scenario, sounds like they copied Israel's plans for the Battle of the Beka'a Valley in 1982.

Offline Zoologic

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #43 on: 19-07-2010, 17:07:54 »
Exactly, replace that shitty F-35 with attacking A-4s and "wild-weasel"ing F-4I Kurnass and the super F-22 with F-15.

BTW, didn't military and civilian GPS use the same satellite feedback? You didn't jam them or destroy them on purpose, because a lot of civilian aircraft navigation relies on GPS precision to back their standard Inertial Reference System IRS/ADIRS/ADIRU (some stupid different manufacturers who have their own term for the same thing). These days, you can't guarantee accelerometers and gyroscopes are free from interferences.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Canada buys F-35s
« Reply #44 on: 19-07-2010, 18:07:06 »
F-35s attack the SAM sites knocking a wider hole in the network for B-1s to continue to main target
The F-35s get radar contact on any Rafele or Mig that break through the F-22 formation and relay the enemy positions to the B-1 - it's the B-1 that does a lot of the firing from miles and miles away, the F-35s essentially play a forward eyes only role.
Ummm... attacking fixed SAM sites (or waiting for mobile launcher to turn on its radar) is actually something that a UAV, particularly a stealthed next-gen UAV could easily do. Considering SEAD is where you are most likely to lose pilots and planes, that is also probably the first application of next-gen "combat UAV's". Also, working as a remote sensor platform does not require a pilot on board. Also, if the F-35's in this scenario just fire at the "leakers", they are not expected to really dogfight, so again, no need for a pilot.

In a conventional, large-scale war with easily identifiable (and designated) targets the UAV's would actually be easiest to deploy, even in autonomous mode. Paradoxically, they were first deployed in counter-insurgency warfare, which requires constant human supervision and totally precludes autonomous target designation.

Plus, MiG-29 is old technology, the scenario becomes more complex if new Russian planes that are as "semi-stealthy" as Rafale (Flanker derivatives at the moment) are added in the mix. Granted, nobody (including the Russian Air Force) is using them at the moment, but probably will by the time F-35 has entered service.