BF2 Spawnsystem!

[[130.Pz]I.Kluge]

Question to anyone:

What do you think about this idea: Imagine you have a map, there are several spawnpoints placed in logical places, in-active. Places where perhaps a SL would position himself, if he was there.... Now imagine that SL spawn is disabled. These strategical places are chosen by the mapper. Players can now spawn there, if anyone from his team reaches them, and controls the area... This for one team only, pretend axis is attacking... They reach one of these positions, clear it from enemies, then they can spawn there.

Does this sound OK?.. I mean, it would be the same as SL, except it would force axis in this case to actually achieve something, to clear the area... Sort of like a flag with spawns, except it isn't a flag, it's more like a location that the SL should have chosen if it was realistic... (e.g. not behind some stupid bush).

The number of these locations could also differ from map to map
The positions could also be in a series of push-like chains, forcing the attacker to push forward, to gain more spawnpoints.

Any feelings?

Something such as this came to me a while back.
Froward deployment zones or point with the same concept.
Were a squad would be needed to set it up for the whole team and quick to cap. (Not marked in the map)
If any member of the opposite team were in the spawn zone no one would be able to spawn. (To keep the flags the main points.)

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The part that I though of is to make those points destructible. Gives the choice to each team (Commander) to either take advantage or deny the enemy the use of it. (Remember they are not marked in the map)

Can they be repair? Dummo... if so, by a special truck or supply drop.

Natty's ideas is better than the SL spawn system.

[Saegetier]

I already spent MOST of my time, staying alive!

Puh-leaze don't remove the squadleader Spawn-Sys ... without it, b00ns like me have to run all over the map because there are no Trucks, APC or else to get to the front again

AND

This way you are much more interested to keep your Squad leader alive and die for him!

[phillip]

I skimmed the thread best I could, dunno if these had been suggested

Disabling the SL Spawn inside the flag radius
Disabling the SL Spawn inside the flag radius + X meters


Disabling the SL Spawn unless 1-2 Squad Members within close radius (force them to group up for an attack, but if most squad dies, then SL Spawn would be gone?)  ideally You could have a Squad spawn if any 3 members are in a spot or something.  Would allow the 1 guy that gets picked off to rejoin the team but if they get wiped out (save the SL) they cant jsut keep on using the magic spawn button.

SL Spawn changes the game when you get a guy that hides in an attic and just poops out troops.  It can be fun to fight two squads against eachother like that, but kinda feels odd. "Oh i died, just respawn in, upstairs, on my belly"


my two cents, i dont play a ton, but when I do I enjoy the mod.

[Twonkle]

Spawn points in :
APCs
Paratrooper planes
and ships (when they come)
Other than that, If you could limit where a squad leader can act as a spawnpoint that'd be perfect.

QFT

[Ltn.Charles]

Still reckon PR has the best system with the rally points, where you have the squadleader put down a rally point (spawn point) then the squad can spawn there until it gets overrun

[phillip]

I think that the reason people that don't like the BF2 SL system is more the effect on the gameplay.  In a normal pubbie where players are only minimally playing together it works well.  It takes a completely rambo type gameplay from regular 42 and players will naturally work toward the same goal.  Because they want to spawn near the action and not a mile and a half away.

The people that dont like it seem to be the ones that see the SL used very effectivly by groups of people that play alot together.  They would use teamwork and teamplay if it was not there, but having it changes how they play the game.  Mad rushes where the squad leader then hides in a hole and the troops rush widly away from him shooting anything in sight.  Dying is not a punishment, because they will spawn in directly in the action.  No sense of protecting their life, find the enemy that are hiding killem/die and send other guys to get them.  Basically 5 mini rambo's with one spawn guy trying to hide as well as possible.  Feels like an odd tactic in a game that tries to recreate ww2 in alot of tiny details.

So what is the best way to encourage teamwork (the real goal of the SL Spawn) and also keep more tactical, realistic type gameplay?

[Guderian]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I love FH2 and play for the WaW tournament that conducts organized and structured 11 hour battles with the use of Teamspeak. The tournament is the main reason I play FH2 because frankly pubbing is so disorganized that I become more frustrated than excited after a few rounds.

Okay, back on topic. Yes the BF2 SL spawn system sucks and this FUBAR system is further glorified by maps that encourage a free-for-all style at the expense of "real" teamwork and overall gameplay enjoyment. I use the word "real" teamwork because some peoples idea of teamwork is flooding a flag zone with 15+ soldiers running around like headless chickens shooting and grenading everything in sight.

So how can we improve our current situation....

Well, changing the BF2 SL spawn system isn't the singular solution to the problem and can't be made better without several other variables getting changed as well.

1. Control point radius's are too small with the "time to grey" and "time to capture" being too short. The result is disorganized squads and fractured gameplay that becomes a perpetual rat race to get into flag zones. It's been my experience that larger flag zones with longer capture times slows this non-stop sprint fest into a more tactical and teamwork orientated experience. This type of gameplay is more realistic and intense than the current one.

2. Remove spawn points at adjacent flags and implement the use APC as spawns.

3. At the moment the best solution to the SL dilemma is a variation of the PR team has developed. FH2 should use a variation of the PR model because it's the only system that I'm aware of that allows the SL to truly get into the action. All competitive players enjoy the thrill of battle and hate being faced with having to stay alive by disengaging and hiding from the action/enemy in order to be a consistent SL spawn for his squadmates.


My suggestions aren't brand new ideas. However, despite all suggestions from serious players involved with  beta testing and the loyal community members, all in an effort to make the reasons clear, the powers that be ultimately have the final word. Time will tell because once the thrill of the Normandy theater is over the server numbers will tell the truth.

[granpa_jo]

I hate with a passion when you move into a flag in a vehicle, clear it of all hostiles, only to have the hostiles spawn back in at the same flag with an AT or engineer kit to kill you. 

And just changing the respawn timer to longer than the flag cap doesn't really help much.  IMO, the only way to fix it is to disallow spawning as long as the cap point is contested.

[Slayer]

Time will tell because once the thrill of the Normandy theater is over the server numbers will tell the truth.

Problem is: when the numbers go down, you'll never know why they do. It might be SL spawn, it might be 1000 other reasons.

[Guderian]

Time will tell because once the thrill of the Normandy theater is over the server numbers will tell the truth.

Problem is: when the numbers go down, you'll never know why they do. It might be SL spawn, it might be 1000 other reasons.

I hear what you're saying Slayer, but those players that have "other reasons" for not playing the mod I'd love to hear their reasons.  So, let's say for arguments sake that graphically FH2 is the best WWII game ever made from the vehicles, weapons, sounds, statics, player models, vegetation and the list goes on and on. So then why so few players? The reason is that gameplay isn't fun and teamwork is virtually non-existent.

All I know is that I play with or against a group of passionate and hardcore community players for 10+ hours on Saturday afternoon's who refuse to play publicly for reasons I stated in the above post.


The server numbers are down nearly 40% since Normandy released.

[Slayer]

All I know is that I play with or against a group of passionate and hardcore community players for 10+ hours on Saturday afternoon's who refuse to play publicly for reasons I stated in the above post.

I get your point Guderian, but what you write above (the quote) is indeed all you know. Not to sound rude or anything, but those are the people who actually TOLD you their reasons for not playing public, at least I presume they did. All those other unknown pubbies didn't tell you, so it might be that they expected CoD, or they don't like it you can kill in 1 shot, or they don't like the fact that you need more than 3 buttons to effectively drive a tank.

Of course the possibility is still there, that it is because of SL spawn. But, there are also 100s of players who like it. And because they like it they don't complain and therefore they aren't heard.

In the end, the devs will replace SL spawn when they find something better. All stuff which has been discussed for now hasn't been judged infinitely better by the devs, so we have to wait.

Btw: 40%? Where did you get that number? Also, most people try it out and if they don't like it, they will leave. It is a bit far fetched to say that THAT is because of SL spawn...

[Guderian]

Before I express my opinions about the current state of the SL spawn system, just know that I desperately want to see FH2 reap the deserved rewards of the teams tremendous efforts with it's Normandy release. I want see dozens of full servers that exceed the teamwork and gameplay enjoyed by the PR community.

@ Slayer
The "average" casual pub player's comments or criticisms about FH2 is a moot point. They don't determine the direction or goals of the mod. However, the people that should have the most influence are the loyal fan base that consists mostly of the two communities (WaW & F|H), beta testers, a half dozen clans and a few dedicated pub players. These are the people that have been playing/pubbing the mod from the beginning and whose opinions matter the most in changing the SL spawn system.

For example, the PR team knows it's community real well and they have coded/altered gameplay to fit/accommodate the needs and wants of its core players. The FH2 team on the other hand remains divided as to what gameplay should resemble. But in the two communities, mappers  (WaW & F|H) have already implemented changes to encourage more tactical attacking and defending rather than the typical cheap "spawn bombing" tactics. Some maps have even removed the SL spawn completely! These changes in large part keep our community happy and keep them coming back every Saturday.

As a mapper I can find a ways to work around the FUBAR SL spawn system. I can increase flag zone radius's, "time to grey", "time to capture", kit limitations etc..., but the SL system is one universal issue, imo, that needs to change.


Again, the rally point system is the best alternative because it allows the SL to get involved in the fight, keep his squad together, as well as, lead his team. The rally point also places a greater value and responsibility for all sniper/recon soldiers.

  

[CBCRonin]

Again, the rally point system is the best alternative because it allows the SL to get involved in the fight, keep his squad together, as well as, lead his team. The rally point also places a greater value and responsibility for all sniper/recon soldiers.

I like the idea of a deployable rally point, possibly using the existing animation of the minefield flags. The SL could carry one, that once deployed, would last for as long as the respawn time on the server is set for.

They could be resupplied at an ammo crate.

This would allow the SL to get involved and add a strategic component to its use.

  






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[General_Henry]

Here guys I got one more idea of removing SL spawn.

Again I must stress that having SL spawn means only squadplay, what people really want is teamplay.

My idea would be that, no SL spawn would be available to any teams, no matter in offensive or in defensive, near flag or not near flag.

some last ideas on APC spawn, I suppose it makes sense for an APC spawn to be only activated when there're someone in it, so actually a lucky grenade should "clear" an APC instead of having other guys pop out and kill you.

One very poor thing about SL spawn is that, as I have said before, that you can't cut off enemy reinforcements in a realistic way. Literally, a single kubelwagon carries 24 soldiers when 4 SLs sits in it, defeating the entire purpose of having trucks/APC. Also, it effectively removed many players in game because the SLs are designed to hide for maximum efficiency.

However, one very fun thing in FH2 currently is that you could have a squad or more defending a hotspot such as a building stubbornly, mainly due to the fact that SL spawn makes spawnpoints less predictable.

Instead of having a mapper placing millions of spawns around for players to choose, I would propose that a certain kit(NCO) would be able to drop a spawnpoint(maybe restricted to their squad) near a friendly flag(some good radius), which would function ONLY when the flag is in friendly hands, when it turned grey, the spawn should be removed immediately. As spawncamping isn't the issue for attacking teams, there's no reason for them to have deployable spawns.

This way the deployable spawn wouldn't be too tough to take out for the other team(just grey the flag), and effectively removed the spawncamping issue and makes the SL really fights.

[fuzzhead]

I'm glad there is a discussion on this, as the spawn system and capture radius/capture times in FH2 are the major reasons I feel the mod is hugely lacking in enjoyable gameplay, and the main thing preventing me from spending more time playing.

I wont bring up any additional talking points as I feel most have already been brought up, however I will quote some things I strongly agree with:

The "average" casual pub player's comments or criticisms about FH2 is a moot point. They don't determine the direction or goals of the mod. However, the people that should have the most influence are the loyal fan base that consists mostly of the two communities (WaW & F|H), beta testers, a half dozen clans and a few dedicated pub players. These are the people that have been playing/pubbing the mod from the beginning and whose opinions matter the most in changing the SL spawn system.

This statement couldnt be more true. Listening to player feedback is vital to creating a succesful mix of gameplay in ANY game I think, but it is important to know who to listen to. There are many players that just play casually, do not have any intention of leading or getting too involved, and just want a fun game. These players may complain about things or suggest random things, but majority just want a good time and dont have a strong opinion, as long as the game is fun/not buggy/playable. I think the majority of players fall within this category, these type of players are important but probably wont offer much useful feedback.

The most important feedback I feel will come from the players who actually BUILD a community - the Squad Leaders, Commanders, Community Organizers, Tournament Event Staff, the guys who help new players, role play the game and really make the experience feel more authentic and fun. The guys who seed the servers night after night, even when its not that fun, the guys who promote the mod on all forums over the net and gush about how great the mod is and what experiences they have had, the guys that create FH communities in their local areas, and many other examples of community building. THESE are the players you should be listening to when developing the gameplay for your mod. And I think its prety clear what they have been asking for, lets hope that a suitable answer can happen sometime in FH2's development lifespan.

Problems with SL Spawn in BF2

... you can't cut off enemy reinforcements in a realistic way. Literally, a single kubelwagon carries 24 soldiers when 4 SLs sits in it, defeating the entire purpose of having trucks/APC and creating a frontline defense.
... it effectively removes many leadership players in game because the SLs are designed to hide for maximum efficiency in order to win the game.
... players that would normally use realistic teamwork and teamplay are forced to change how they play the game in order to adapt to mad rushes where the squad leader hides in a hole and the troops rush widly out of his ass, shooting anything in sight.
... dying is not a punishment with this system, because you will spawn in directly in the action. Theres no sense of protecting your own life, find the enemy that are hiding killem/die and send other guys to get them. Repeat ad nausem until you finally find the enemy squad leader that is hiding and spawning troops out of his ass, once you did this then you will win the flag. Then the enemy come back in a jeep, spawning 5 more troops out of his ass and the cycle starts once more. Basically 5 mini rambo's on each squad with one spawn guy trying to hide as well as possible.  Feels like an odd tactic in a game that tries to recreate ww2 in alot of tiny details.

No more needs to be said on it from my point of view.

I love what the FH2 team has done with this mod, so much amazing artwork in their vehicles, player models, maps, statics and effects. Its definitely the most beautiful mod in BF2 and I bet all WW2 mods. Its just a shame to me that I'm only able to play small lengths of time on public servers before leaving in disgust, due to the impact on gameplay that the above systems create. There is so many small details in this game that just make it so great, its such a shame that the huge majority of players will never get to see them because the way the gameplay unfolds

I hope this discussion continues, theres been alot of brain storming as well as community-created solutions from the various tournaments.

I'm looking forward to read some replies from the FH2 team and their gameplay coordinators and what their thoughts on the topic are.