Author Topic: Tragedy and gun violence  (Read 20660 times)

Offline TimeMachineAssassin

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #285 on: 07-01-2013, 10:01:23 »
Dude seriously, in my whole life i wasn't as afraid as you are apparently. Not even when i had a live frag grenade in my hands and pulled the pin ..

There is something very wrong over there, and it just confirms my own set goal never to travel to the US. Its full of crazy people, who are afraid of everything and just shoot around like in the wild west. You should come out to the EU for a year or so, oh and, please leave you gun back home. I guarantee you you will experience a life without having to worry about evil criminals, evil governments, evil tyranny, nazis, soviets, communists or whatever fox news tells you to be afraid of. I think you cant even imagine how life is without having to worry about silly things like that ..
I dont live in a state of fear. I recognize danger and act accordingly. I can handle situations that most europeans couldnt handle from the impression I get from this forum. I dont want to live handicaped, getting all squirrely over a little blood. I mean, we used to slaughter the pigs in mexico by hanging them upside down and cutting their throats from ear to ear. Not for fun but out of necessity. You cant get all close and lovey with the pigs in order to do this. These things seem to be hidden from your view, but none the less they still happen everyday, your just not exposed to them, how nice. We might seem crazy but i just think were less insulated from reality, the ugly behind the scenes goings on. You wouldn't believe some of the shit ive seen and come to terms with.
You would probably have an exciting life expierience if you visited and did the right things, and would be relatively safe. I would like to come visit europe for sure before I die. And thats a good point because im almost positive my perspective would change. I know it would. My sister did a little tour of france and italy just a few months ago. She liked it but of course had criticisms. One guy in the group got his camera snatched in italy somewhere. Let me tell you, he made a big mistake and paid for it.
Also, there is a way too keep the government in check. Revolution. That's how the people deal with it.
Considering the amount of arms in the US that would probably turn into an ugly civil war. Besides, who says the army will be unified considering the situation within the borders? some will go with the government, some will rebel. It's not as hard as it sounds, it's been done before.
Revolution, I agree here. The cycle seems unavoidable but can be postponed. I personally dont want to live in those times. But then again, maybe it would be fun, Im crazy, I know.

Offline LuckyOne

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #286 on: 07-01-2013, 12:01:13 »
I'll just leave this here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
Date    April 29, 1992 – May 4, 1992
Attack type    Rioting, protests
Deaths    53
Injured    2,000+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots

Date    6 to 10 August 2011 (although incidents remained ongoing after this period)
Location    Several districts of London, Birmingham and the West Midlands, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, Bristol and several other areas.
Characteristics    Rioting, looting, arson, mugging, assault, murder

5 deaths
16+ members of public injured
186 police officers, 3 Police Community Support Officers as well as 5 police dogs injured

Guess where more guns were involved?  ::)
This sentence is intentionally left unfinished...

Offline Stefan

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #287 on: 07-01-2013, 12:01:09 »
the problem in LA is not enough guns so people can defend themself!

and in london people are being oppressed by the gouvernment cause they cant defend themself.
"It is the function of the CIA to keep the world unstable, and to propagandize and teach the American people to hate and fear, so we will let the Establishment spend any amount of money on arms."

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #288 on: 07-01-2013, 12:01:18 »
Sorry to rain on your parade but please check out the German Weapons Law of March 18, 1938. I mean, this only barred all Jews in Germany from manufacturing or trading firearms. If you were a normal Hitler loving citizen (like most at the time, who fell for the Germany is great, everyone trust your government propaganda) everything was all peachy. You primarily only ran into trouble if you were a Jew, the exact group the Hitler Regime was trying to exterminate.  On November 11 1938, new conditions were added to the 'German Weapons Law', prohibiting Jews from owning firearms. This, combined with the other bigotry towards Jews and the fact that almost every piece of ammunition was regulated (strict gun control), it was impossible for Jews to obtain weapons.


Yes, exactly. So, what you are saying is that every government that restricts the possesion of firearms is a form of dictatorship?

anyway, let's analyze this lovely article:


"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country."
- A.H.

Looks like Hitler didn't want the people he conquered have weapons which they could use to rebel against him. No shit!
That's common sense, you disarm the enemy! Oh no, no, just give them the guns, it's their right to have them, who cares what they use them for, hunting, sport, killing german soldiers, seriously, it doesn't matter!

Like I said before, Jews were targeted for destruction. Only with sympathy from the majority of the german population could something have been done about it. But since almost the entire nation turned against them, I'm confused why this surprises you. So, if you were a hypothetical leader of a authoritative state, and you came to power using some group of people as scapegoats for the current situation (which you will, of course, improve), and you now have to get rid of them. Would you, or would you not, let the said group possess firearms which will be used against you, as you move in to destroy them?

"Verordnung über Waffenbesitz im besetzen Gebiet":
1. All firearms and ammunition, hand grenades, explosive devices and other war matériel are to be surrendered.
The delivery must take place within 24 hours at the nearest German military administrative headquarters or garrison...
blah blah blah you get the point.

Yes, of course, it's only natural that the conquerer leaves the weapons in the hands of the enemy, even when the latter is defeated. Conquered nations always love foreign flags instead of their own and they rejoice when they see the new, foreign leader. They love being occupied. And that's why we should let them have hand grenades, explosives, tanks, mines and machineguns! Yes! I mean, what could they possibly use them for? Surely not to kill german soldiers! Especially not to blow up railways! Why would anyone do that?


"British civilians, faced with the threat of invasion, desperately need arms for the defense of their homes."

Faced with the threat of an invasion. I'm sorry, last time I checked, the Soviets didn't mass up the fleet near Vladivostok... the Kriegsmarine (Or is it Bundesmarine these days?) is still a bit shaky from the last pounding it took around, 1945, isn't it? The Chinese also have some problems transporting that many cannon fodder, I don't think they'll set sail anytime soon...

translation: it was a time of crisis, the Wehrmacht was on the other side of La Manche and it was a matter of days before there would be countless parachutes and planes in the sky, the sea blackened with transporter boats and the ground shaken from the thundering guns and falling bombs! Yes, then they needed EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF WAR MACHINERY THEY COULD GET THEIR HANDS ON.
IN MAY OF 1940!
« Last Edit: 07-01-2013, 13:01:46 by PanzerKnacker »
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline Slayer

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #289 on: 07-01-2013, 17:01:30 »
They had no political power (at least not in Germany), the only thing they had was money, and lots of it.
Sorry, but that's a prejudice. Among jews, the percentage of rich and poor people is very similar to the non-jewish population. It's just that the centuries of propaganda portrayed them as rich, to make people jealous of them so they wouldn't mind if they were persecuted.

But since Tuco apparently posted that pic as a "joke" (really, joking over 6 million deaths, nice going) seeing his reaction, let's focus on the topic and leave the jewish thing out of it.

The last time a civilian (or civilian-like people/military in disguise) make heroic gun-related action to some government officials during our most important moments:

Gavrilo Princip shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg. The whole Europe was set ablaze as a result, then Russia fall into communism, Germany into nazism.
How was that badly executed (it almost failed) Princip assassination heroic?

There is something very wrong over there, and it just confirms my own set goal never to travel to the US. Its full of crazy people, who are afraid of everything and just shoot around like in the wild west.
Don't exaggerate, Corvax. Some other Americans posted here too and they show different opinons (check the first few pages). When you advise TMA to come over to Europe, you should go to the US to see that there are nice people too :)

Some here seem to paint a picture of the US still being somewhere in the Wild West, yes. But I refuse to believe all Americans think like that.

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #290 on: 07-01-2013, 18:01:49 »
They had no political power (at least not in Germany), the only thing they had was money, and lots of it.
Sorry, but that's a prejudice. Among jews, the percentage of rich and poor people is very similar to the non-jewish population. It's just that the centuries of propaganda portrayed them as rich, to make people jealous of them so they wouldn't mind if they were persecuted.

But since Tuco apparently posted that pic as a "joke" (really, joking over 6 million deaths, nice going) seeing his reaction, let's focus on the topic and leave the jewish thing out of it.

Yeah sorry my point was badly put.
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline Tuco

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #291 on: 07-01-2013, 19:01:18 »
But since Tuco apparently posted that pic as a "joke" (really, joking over 6 million deaths, nice going) seeing his reaction, let's focus on the topic and leave the jewish thing out of it.

Wasnt a joke, they were unarmed under law and rounded up. Dont see how its hard to put 2 and 2 together, alot easier to round up a bunch of people for extermination if they cant resist isnt it?
If you have to shoot, shoot, dont talk.

Offline Oddball

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #292 on: 07-01-2013, 22:01:57 »
1.) Oh right, I forgot... It's easy for the people to make diplomatic changes during a tyranny, especially when they're screaming "we want our guns back, you're not playing by the rules!" I'm sure that will be heeded well...
Seeing signs means the tyranny isn't there (yet). So you're off on the wrong foot here.

See, here I disagree... I can name countless times before, the people get too accustomed to living off and relying on the government to see what is happening before their own eyes; until it is too late of course.

2.) Not exactly patriotic, courageous, or even an attempt to solve the issue; you can only flee for so far for so long.
I'd rather live in a different country than die "courageously". Patriotism is yet another totally outdated thing (albeit ia little less than the 1776 stuff). I'm getting the feeling that old-fashioned stuff is really, really important for you.

Well, I can agree that blind Patriotism is an outdated thing... fighting for your country because the King/Queen, President, Dictator, whoever says you should, whether you fully agree or not. However, a Patriot fighting for freedom and the defense of weak is still a rather noble idea. No, "old-fashioned stuff" isn't necessarily really important to me, I like some traditions and the idea of values and morals... which definitely appears to be outdated today.

It's rather selfish to only be concerned with ourselves and our own life-times.
I'm not. I'm simply not as afraid of an eventual tyranny as you are. [/quote]

It's funny how those taking the 'anti-gun' side are always including the word(s): "afraid, fear, scared". to me it seems like the only ones scared are them. They're the ones afraid of private citizens in possession of guns, even their own loving neighbors possessing guns, etc...

Not entirely, no. It's worked for 230+ years... why change it now. Please, for the sake of my sanity, don't give me the: "Because it's the 21st and people are more civilized, blah blah blah rhetoric."
Hunting and gathering worked for 1000s of years, why did they change it around 10.000 BC? Stupid people...  ::)

In some places it hasn't, and they live perfectly content. I'm not saying that's my lifestyle... but if it works for you, who's right is it to tell them to stop?


People are animals
No, they're not,. Although I'm getting the feeling that they might be over at your place.

Oh really, so what's the major genetic difference between us and other mammals? We all born with certain innate instincts...

I'd re-examine a little of your history there; not all my examples were from the 18 century.
I know that, but that's beside the point. You did get the pojnt, right? Or is it that you don't want to get it?

Oh no, I got what you were trying to say. Although it was ill conceived, as several I quoted from were mid to late 20th century... which isn't the 18th century, in fact, it's pretty close to modern times.

Not quite following you're "micro-level" bit.
When a man owns a gun, he will use it earlier than a man who doesn't own one, simply because you can't use what you don't own. Clearer?

Why must he/she use it all all? I personally know many people who own firearms and haven't used them, nor really have the desire to do so.

Maybe your government NOW is benign and peaceful, but can you guarantee a change in administration will yield the same ideology?
A bit rhetoric this one. I have enough confidence in my country, and in Europe as a whole, to not turn into tyranny or make genocide in the near future. Like I said, I'm not as afraiad as you are.

Wow, this is a really bold statement, which has proved dangerous in the past. Once again, I'm not necessarily talking about the 'near future'. ...And here we go again with the "afraid" statement... the only one that seems afraid here is you. Afraid of every other citizen.

1.) Yes, I do believe strongly in the right to be arms, however, not as strong as many. If I honestly knew banning firearms from citizens would make the would a better place I'd be all in. Except from experience, evidence and history I just happen to know differently.
Apart from experience there is enough evidence and history which proves you're wrong.

It's obvious we disagree, and I'd pull evidence if I thought it might actually convince you a little. However, I know differently, so why waste both out time?


2.) How many criminals? It's not too bad, as long as you avoid Hartford...oh and New Heaven.
Ok, so it's quite exceptional. Like overhere. So why the fear that they might "take over"?

Not entirely. Hartford is the state capital, and New Heaven is another large city. Fear who will "take over". I don't fear anyone will "take over" now. I'm not even sure where that statement came from...

How hard is it to discuss without mentioning the nazis all the time? Come on, man...

Okay, I don't have to use Nazi Germany... as I said before, how about the Rape of Nanking, Mao's Regime, The Pol Pot Regime in Cambodia, Darfur, the Rwandan Genocide, Stalin's Famine, just to name a few... Hitler/Nazi Germany is not necessarily the exception to the rule, in fact it's wasn't even the worse genocide; just probably the best known. Especially here, on the forums, which is why it's commonly referenced. Others were more discrete or successful, and remember my friends... the Victors write the history books.

Unfortunately Slayer, you left out a lot of my responses I was looking forward to answers for.


@ PanzerKnacker, "So when you have people like that, and who get blamed (at the first glance- rightfully so) for the catastrophic economical situation, and the nation accepts it, it's very easy to get rid of them." Wow, did I just read that right? Sounds like someone still believes all that 'Father Germany' propaganda.

"Looks like Hitler didn't want the people he conquered have weapons which they could use to rebel against him. No shit!
That's common sense, you disarm the enemy! Oh no, no, just give them the guns, it's their right to have them, who cares what they use them for, hunting, sport, killing german soldiers, seriously, it doesn't matter!"


Except the majority of the German citizens were his biggest fans, they trusted him, looked up to him and didn't think he could do any wrong. Most of his citizens weren't going to Rebel against him, just probably help exterminate the Jews.

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #293 on: 07-01-2013, 22:01:24 »

@ PanzerKnacker, "So when you have people like that, and who get blamed (at the first glance- rightfully so) for the catastrophic economical situation, and the nation accepts it, it's very easy to get rid of them."

Wow, did I just read that right? Sounds like someone still believes all that 'Father Germany' propaganda.
You misread me. I'm saying the german people believed it unconditionally because (even though it was wrong), it was explained well and people thought it was true.
Someone here being me? No, I don't have any illusions about the Nazi regime, I'm just saying they made a convincing (however a false one and full of lies) case.
"Looks like Hitler didn't want the people he conquered have weapons which they could use to rebel against him. No shit!
That's common sense, you disarm the enemy! Oh no, no, just give them the guns, it's their right to have them, who cares what they use them for, hunting, sport, killing german soldiers, seriously, it doesn't matter!"


Except the majority of the German citizens were his biggest fans, they trusted him, looked up to him and didn't think he could do any wrong. Most of his citizens weren't going to Rebel against him, just probably help exterminate the Jews.

"People he conquered" aren't German citizens. There is a difference between people living in Germany and people living in occupied Poland, for example, and I'm reffering to the latter.
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline Oddball

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #294 on: 07-01-2013, 22:01:51 »

@ PanzerKnacker, "So when you have people like that, and who get blamed (at the first glance- rightfully so) for the catastrophic economical situation, and the nation accepts it, it's very easy to get rid of them."

Wow, did I just read that right? Sounds like someone still believes all that 'Father Germany' propaganda.
You misread me. I'm saying the german people believed it unconditionally because (even though it was wrong), it was explained well and people thought it was true.
Someone here being me? No, I don't have any illusions about the Nazi regime, I'm just saying they made a convincing (however a false one and full of lies) case.
Good, glad that's the case... although one must learn censorship and ignorance is not your friend; and that's all you get with big government.

"Looks like Hitler didn't want the people he conquered have weapons which they could use to rebel against him. No shit!
That's common sense, you disarm the enemy! Oh no, no, just give them the guns, it's their right to have them, who cares what they use them for, hunting, sport, killing german soldiers, seriously, it doesn't matter!"


Except the majority of the German citizens were his biggest fans, they trusted him, looked up to him and didn't think he could do any wrong. Most of his citizens weren't going to Rebel against him, just probably help exterminate the Jews.

"People he conquered" aren't German citizens. There is a difference between people living in Germany and people living in occupied Poland, for example, and I'm reffering to the latter.

Oh, so he didn't revoke Jews in Germany citizenship and then go on to exterminate them? Good, glad we cleared that up.  ::) Secondly, Poland also had/has strict (almost impossible) gun laws.

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #295 on: 07-01-2013, 23:01:29 »

Oh, so he didn't revoke Jews in Germany citizenship and then go on to exterminate them? Good, glad we cleared that up.  ::) Secondly, Poland also had/has strict (almost impossible) gun laws.

Come again?
Or read what I said again, even better...
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.

Offline Oddball

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #296 on: 08-01-2013, 00:01:24 »

Oh, so he didn't revoke Jews in Germany citizenship and then go on to exterminate them? Good, glad we cleared that up.  ::) Secondly, Poland also had/has strict (almost impossible) gun laws.

Come again?
Or read what I said again, even better...

Assuming you're German, I wonder how well this is getting translated... :-\ "Oh, so he didn't revoke Jews in Germany citizenship and then go on to exterminate them? Good, glad we cleared that up.  ::)" This was sarcasm, saying that he didn't only conquer and attempt to annihilate Jews in countries he seized. The second part about Poland, was saying that places which he invaded, conquered, what not, like Poland, had stick gun laws, too. Further prohibiting Jews from acquiring guns... hope that makes sense...

Offline GooGeL

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #297 on: 08-01-2013, 00:01:47 »
The only solution now is most likely more guns until society is much healthier.


Oh yes, more guns is really the way to go...have everyone shoot their way to justice and prosperity  ::)

Yes, make it better with guns, it'll be like a giant Mexican standoff, just beautiful, imagine: Nobody can shoot anybody because everybody has a gun pointed at a different somebody  8) ©Natty
The hell?

I.e who will dare robbing you or any crowded area if you have a bunch of people around you that might be armed too? Why is the victims douchebags when asking for a "fair fight".
It doesn't mean you'd even use it if it happened. Though, if "cornered" no police will have x-ray eyes like superman and be there in a blink of an eye.

Normal and peaceful people tag along just fine. People doesn't get stabbed on purpose by co-workers cause they are lumberjacks, surgeons, carpenter etc that carry or uses knifes for example.

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #298 on: 08-01-2013, 00:01:02 »
All countries, nations, races, religions, governments, political groups, social classes, etc. have people whom are capable of committing terrible acts. None are above this and firearms are not the issue. If someone really wanted to murder, execute, or harm others individually or in mass causing tragic events, there are many other tools and other ways to do so besides firearms. For example, the attack upon the World Trade Center in New York or even the Oklahoma City bombing which both had tremendously more civilian deaths than any recent firearm tragedy. I'd rather have a gun and never need it, than need a gun and not have it.
« Last Edit: 08-01-2013, 03:01:11 by 0utlaw »

Offline PanzerKnacker

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Re: Tragedy and gun violence
« Reply #299 on: 08-01-2013, 00:01:58 »

Assuming you're German, I wonder how well this is getting translated... :-\ "Oh, so he didn't revoke Jews in Germany citizenship and then go on to exterminate them? Good, glad we cleared that up.  ::)" This was sarcasm, saying that he didn't only conquer and attempt to annihilate Jews in countries he seized. The second part about Poland, was saying that places which he invaded, conquered, what not, like Poland, had stick gun laws, too. Further prohibiting Jews from acquiring guns... hope that makes sense...

First, thanks for the explanation.
Second, I wasn't talking about the Jews, I thought we resolved that part earlier. They were targeted for destruction and no gun law would have helped them.
I was talking about the "regular" population (i.e. everyone else but the Jews). The article speaks of "Subraces", which were not only the Jews but nearly every "race" other than the German "Aryan" one (except of course Hitler's allies). I said it was normal to disarm the hostile factor of the enemy.


The hell?

I.e who will dare robbing you or any crowded area if you have a bunch of people around you that might be armed too? Why is the victims douchebags when asking for a "fair fight".
It doesn't mean you'd even use it if it happened. Though, if "cornered" no police will have x-ray eyes like superman and be there in a blink of an eye.

Normal and peaceful people tag along just fine. People doesn't get stabbed on purpose by co-workers cause they are lumberjacks, surgeons, carpenter etc that carry or uses knifes for example.

Carrying weapons with you could be argued to cause more aggression as you present yourself as a dangerous target, or, just by showing that you hold a knife/gun, you provoke an aggressive reaction.


But I think we derailed this to the maximum, can we go back to the modern day US/Europe thing?
He was not wrong. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics.