Forgotten Hope Public Forum
Forgotten Hope 2 => Normandy maps => Feedback => Omaha Beach => Topic started by: gavrant on 11-04-2014, 09:04:51
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"If you have a suggestions or want to give us some Feedback about this Map you can Post it here!"
Minimap:
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2md2ddz.jpg)
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First impressions:
-Maybe 300 - 500 more tickets for the USA
-Some more shell craters on the beach would help so you can move from cover to cover.
Germans will still have plenty of time to shoot you, but it becomes less frustrating.
-No smoke for the scout kit? Maybe a limited number of scout kits instead?
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INITIAL<-- (key word) Impressions
I got the chance to play around on this map about 4 or 5 times so far. 4 times with the full 100+ player experience 8) and on both teams. All 4 times resulted in a german win with the allies not being able to get to the second push part of the map. The one time was late tonight with about 30ppl playing and the Americans easily capped out the Germans.
Balance
Map balance is something that nobody can give anything more than a first impression on at this point but I think Odium hit the nail on the head; most of what I've seen and heard in-game gives me the impression that some extra tickets for the Americans can make this map balanced and fun for everyone. And some more defilades on the beach in the form of craters couldn't hurt at all imo.
From what I've seen the Americans have all the assets to grab a foothold on one of the first 3 WNs; SL spawn, ship artillery, smoke, 30cal gunners on the LCVPs. If all these things are used properly the Americans are more than capable of taking hold of a bunker and eventually locking the first sector. From what I've seen the Americans were literally only seconds away from locking that first sector before their tickets ran out. Eventually Americans will find a good system and realize that they need good teamwork to take the first 3 WNs and wont get slaughtered nearly as much in the first phase. But a ticket increase would give them more time to do that and give them time to complete the second part of the map.
I think time will tell if ONLY a ticket increase is needed to perfect this map. But I def think it's a good place to start :P
Looks
This is easily one of the best looking maps in FH2 8)
Accuracy
This has to be mentioned because of how amazingly accurate this map is while still having the potential for great gameplay. I think this is one of the best examples of a balance between historical accuracy (literally almost 1:1 scale) and the gameplay to fit that accuracy. The level design on this map is VERY good imo.
Feel
Nothing, I mean nothing, comes close to describing how mind numbingly awesome it is to coordinate a beach assault on a historically accurate Omaha beach map 8). Not, videos, not screenshots, nothing. You HAVE to be there to get the full experience of this map. SPR obviously wasn't 100% historically accurate but what it did was give you a great 'feel' for that battle and how it played out. I've never seen a game represent that same 'feel' with this amount of historical accuracy and I honestly have to applaud every dev that contributed to this map. This was probably the hardest challange a level designer could face and honestly I believe it's only a few tweaks away from being perfect.
At the end of the day my first impression is; this map is one of the best things to happen to FH2. I've lost this map twice and gotten killed a millions times without firing off a shot and honestly I've never had more fun doing so ;D almost EVERYBODY who plays a WW2 game wants to assault Omaha Beach. In this way it brings in more casual players, and old vets can't complain about a historically accurate beach landing map 8) Only time will tell but imo this map just needs a bit of fine tuning to turn it into a great map.
Bugs/misc
Some limited kits don't say "limited" in the spawn screen. (American Recon kit for example; also some German kits)
Personally I would add some loud(er) ambient gunfire to the edges of the map on the beach. Kind of like the ambient sounds on Omaha Charlie sector in FH1. 128 players provided plenty of noise; but when player numbers die down and there's only 40 or so people on the server, those ambient sounds might be a big help in 'tricking' the player that there's more people assaulting the beach than there really is. The 'feel' of this map plays a big role in how enjoyable it is imo.
Honestly tho I wanna thank every dev who helped make this map. Mr Cheese, Remick08, Ts4EVER, Stubbfan and anyone else who put time into this, you guys all collectively did a GREAT job imo.
[/asskissing]
I'll keep trying to provide more input and feedback on this as I get more time in. :)
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About the craters, I would like to see few more as well, but IIRC there weren't any IRL, naval artillery support fail to reach the beach area with its barrage before the initial attack on D-Day.
And AFAIK tickets will be increased in near future, don't worry ;)
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I personally think the flat beach area without too many craters is quite important. Too much cover or just a few craters too much can easily result in an easier assault at specific parts of the beach. The result would be an assault restricted to specific flanks after people have figured things out.
I also like that the MG emplacements run out of ammo after some time, so the lack of supplies to hold back all the waves landing on the beach is probably quite accurate. Attack quantity therefore brings you further to reach the goals as well. So even multiple times of dying in machine gun fire, brings the US team further. After all I agree with adding some more tickets, but I'd wait and see how it develops in order to define an appropiate amount.
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And AFAIK tickets will be increased in near future, don't worry ;)
I'd be careful to add tickets too soon. Check what was posted when Hurtgen Forest was new, like this, for example:
I have played quite a few rounds on this one, but the US get beaten by ticket-bleed most of the time - that has been _my_ experience so far. The US mostly get to the flag the Germans can't recapture (forgot the name), but the bleed doesn't stop until all flags are capped. I think that's a bit rough. If the bleed stops at said flag, at least then you get to see who's the better team. Nothing is worse than being defeated by ticket-bleed, even though your team is the stronger one. Perhaps something to add there, is when ticket bleed stops at that flag, you could also make it so the Germans _can_ recapture the flag. But that may just result in a stalemate evolving around that flag, which I can understand could be something you don't want.
Don't get me wrong, I like that it's hard for the US to take all those flags, but ticket bleed that doesn't stop until all flags are capped would not have been my personal choice.
Let's wait a while and see what happens when allied learn how to use the ship correctly and make decisions then.
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Well here in lies the beauty of the launcher and updater :) I could agree to waiting a little while before giving the US more tickets, because the players need time to figure out how to play the map etc... but if the devs decide to increase the tickets, and then see that its too much and want to decrease it back again, the updater allows them to do that w/o hesitation (if I understand the updater correctly)
About the craters, I would like to see few more as well, but IIRC there weren't any IRL, naval artillery support fail to reach the beach area with its barrage before the initial attack on D-Day.
I figured that might be the case. Honestly I'd like to see this map balanced out in the most accurate way possible, w/o having to add or remove historical elements... there's such a nice balance between gameplay and historical accuracy right now; I'd like to see it preserved while fine tuning the map. :)
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And AFAIK tickets will be increased in near future, don't worry ;)
I'd be careful to add tickets too soon. Check what was posted when Hurtgen Forest was new...
It's much different on Omaha, it's not about being beaten by ticket bleed. You have constant rape from 6 MG nests directed at the beach + PAKs, mortars and tunk turret. American tickets are being drastically reduced because of huge casualties. All my rounds on Omaha haven't lasted more than 15 minutes so far. You want to tell me that after some time, when players will get use to this map, casualties will be significantly smaller? It's not what this map is about. It really needs more tickets for the Allies.
EDIT: I'm not talking about double tickets, but 150% should be ok + what Matthew said. If they will be too much, they can be decreased again easily.
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In my opinion just remove the bleed as it only hurts gameplay and isn't needed to make the US push off the beach. The fact that if the US just stays on the beach and tries to shoot it out with the Germans, they will still lose, so bleed or no bleed they will work to get off the beach.
I would also consider making the WN's only takeable by team 2. This will allow players to see more of the level.
I've also noticed a lot of poorly placed statics, think I found around 5 wall sections at the church alone that were not connected properly, they either fell short of reaching the pillar, sticking through the other side or 1 side didn't reach the pillar. Noticed things like this around the map, but the church area is the worst offender. While these dont seem to be exploitable, it looks bad.
With the gameplay changes I said above I think Omahas gameplay would be significantly better.
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Guys, it's been only two days. Let's wait at least two weeks before making any sudden conclusions.
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@Rabbit
Removing bleed is not an option. What are the guys fighting for then? They could even hold their spawn for all game and let the destroyer shoot the Germans or so. Practically won't happen like this, but the attacker needs to be set under pressure to take the objectives as quickly as possible. And after the first 3 first flags are capped there is a German-Allied campfest without bleed, without properly pushing up. The bleed forces one team to be active and that'S why the gameplay is good. Remove bleed on any map and you have a random shooter with killcounts, but no battlefield game. No, this is not an option.
You can just balance things by adjusting tickets, no need to remove this key element.
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It's much different on Omaha, it's not about being beaten by ticket bleed.
Jan, don't you see I posted that to prove a point? Point being that making decisions like this in the first week after release is a bad idea?
You want to tell me that after some time, when players will get use to this map, casualties will be significantly smaller?
Yes, I do. The destroyer is a beast, and when allies start using it properly, the WN's, the turret and even the PAKs will be blown away pretty quickly. And that does indeed lower the casualties (significance depending on ship's success).
EDIT: I'm not talking about double tickets, but 150% should be ok + what Matthew said. If they will be too much, they can be decreased again easily.
Yes, but making changes like this every few days will drive everyone mad, so sit back, relax and see for a while how this will develop. Making the change might be a good idea after all, but better make it based on some real experience, and not on just one weekend of gaming.
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I'm not talking about changes made too often, of course it will be annoying. I'm just not happy that this very unique map has the same ticket settings like any other map with push code, but I completely understand your point, let's wait and see how it will play out ;)
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Are ALL the barbed-wire segments supposed to be destructable? I tried blowing some at the top of the cliffs multiple times, they were never destroyed. Is that because they are supposed to be indestructable? Or could it be that... I don't know... my Bangalores just slid down the hill (is that actually possible? I always had the impression they pretty much stick to the place you throw 'em)?
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One the ones on the seawall.
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Are ALL the barbed-wire segments supposed to be destructable? I tried blowing some at the top of the cliffs multiple times, they were never destroyed. Is that because they are supposed to be indestructable? Or could it be that... I don't know... my Bangalores just slid down the hill (is that actually possible? I always had the impression they pretty much stick to the place you throw 'em)?
Only the barbed wire on the seawall can be destroyed, the thick one which completely blocks movement of soldiers trying to cross it, all other bits of it can be jumped over instead.
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I think we can all agree that this map recreates the first part of the assault on Omaha beach better than any game attempt before it. What it's missing is the Americans chance at a breakthrough. I know it's early but it's beginning to look like the Americans will never get it done, not on a populated server anyway. Maybe they could do it a few times in a organized tournament battle IDK.
I suggest recreating the cruise of the USS Frankford, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha_Beach#Naval_support (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha_Beach#Naval_support)
Like on Ramelle, when the p51's give the allies some help, you can have an animation of this destroyer cruise by close, East to West, and blow up most of the emplaced positions at the same time. This break while the Germans repair should get more Americans and their SL's off the beach and up to bluffs to start phase 2 of the battle.
If this is too much work for now, an alternative would be to make some German guns unrepairable or limit the number of times they can be repaired. The Americans just can't get off the beach if the guns keep popping back up, IMO.
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I found the Lafette in D5 like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/xEqu2Cg.jpg)
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So what? You know that you can turn these things around with the a and d keys, right? Probably somebody wanted to take the other wn under fire.
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So what? You know that you can turn these things around with the a and d keys, right? Probably somebody wanted to take the other wn under fire.
WAIT WHAT YOU CAN? Oh Lord I thought it was some sort of repair bug! And all those Americans on the beach :'(
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WAIT WHAT YOU CAN? Oh Lord I thought it was some sort of repair bug! And all those Americans on the beach :'(
Yuuup ;) those babies have pretty much 360 coverage. I actually wanted to see if there were any holes in the MG coverage on the beach so I did a VERY rough map of where each MG can cover. Red=death, it's a wonder the Americans weren't thrown back into the sea
(http://i.imgur.com/Dnoo670.jpg)
and it's worse when you add in the paks :o
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But the shiparty can reach all those positions as well :)
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But the shiparty can reach all those positions as well
I think the ship arty is proving ineffective. It depends too much on good spots. Binoc kits are really limited and the spotter has to stay alive in that red zone somewhere. An organized team might get it done but not pubbies.
Inaffective arty was historically accurate until destroyers started coming in close to the beach and firing at a flat trajectory. This is what pubbies need. A simple way is to make another static destroyer appear after some time close enough that the gunners can aim without spotters or can spot for themselves.
A better way is to give the Allies a real destroyer they can drive up to the beach and use, perhaps in a future release. Sure some asshat will drive it off the map or beach it once in a while like in BF42, but they can be kicked.
Set these things to appear at 10 mins maybe or make the Americans cap some objective on the beach to trigger it. Maybe after they blow some holes in the sea wall.
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I think the ship arty is proving ineffective. It depends too much on good spots. Binoc kits are really limited and the spotter has to stay alive in that red zone somewhere. An organized team might get it done but not pubbies.
This is an excellent point. I have floated in landing craft just beyond firing range, still at sea and cannot see the MG Nest to spot.
Matthew_Baker's image does not show the MG Nest coverage going into the ocean.
It does a bit.
I also noticed the german Mortar Hits the blind spots on the beach(USA Kit Locations)
It is very well covered.
This IS the hardest map in FH2, but lets see what happens in a few weeks.
Im working on a Weapons Check for Omaha & Gold & may throw in some Allied tips for the community.
;)
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Well yeah, the arty has to get some spots and whatnot. Last time i was on there i got loads of good spots and killed lods of mg nests. If nobody spots, then yeah it won't be so effective... like it should be.
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But the shiparty can reach all those positions as well
I think the ship arty is proving ineffective. It depends too much on good spots. Binoc kits are really limited and the spotter has to stay alive in that red zone somewhere. An organized team might get it done but not pubbies.
I think that after some time pubbies will learn to use it even without spots. So they will know how to aim all those nests, there are ways to achieve it. Some artillerist in game are able to shoot specific areas without spots on the maps because they simply know how to rotate their guns, so in fact, after some time this map might become too easy for allies. Let's wait and see.
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For what it's worth, every time I've played this map on a small server the American's have easily scooped up the WNs on the beach (after a tough fight) and moved the fight on to the town. Most of those times they've even capped out the Germans before tickets (too large for the amount of players on the server by comparison) ran out. Even when I've played it on a large server, ~100; I've found that good SLs with good tactics can provide close spawn points for the Americans to overwhelm the WNs after some trying. And the Americans at least get a foothold if not cap all 3 nests by the time the round ends.
For me, it just reinforces the theory that time is the only thing standing between the Americans and a legit win on this map. And I honestly believe that once the public figures out that teamwork is the key, this map will become much more balanced.
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Last time i was on there i got loads of good spots and killed lods of mg nests.
Did the Allies advance in that round?
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Yep, but the tickets ran out too soon. Which will be fixed.
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But the shiparty can reach all those positions as well
I think the ship arty is proving ineffective. It depends too much on good spots. Binoc kits are really limited and the spotter has to stay alive in that red zone somewhere. An organized team might get it done but not pubbies.
Yes, the map is too reliant on an excellent ship gunner who also has great spots. Given that spotter kits are very limited and it's so damn hard to spawn and stay alive on the beach (let alone spot), this makes for a tough situation.
I also noticed that there are a bunch of scoped Lafette MG42s, which I think is overkill. I think regular MG42s with the normal ironsight zoom are plenty effective. I've lost count of the number of times I was sniped from behind an obstacle by a scoped Lafette.
I also think there need to be more shell craters on the beach for US soldiers to use for cover. Given the scoped MGs stated above, on top of all the other shit with a clear line of fire, it is quite impossible to cross that expanse -- even IF the ship gunner knows how to use smoke shells.
This map has so much potential, but it's ruined when the US don't have a shot at escaping the beach. Also remember that the most populated server - 762- doesn't run the map very often. As a result, you're not going to see people getting alot of practice with it. I would assume that people are going to play it like they are now, and adjust the map accordingly.
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The key to U.S. success is to suppress the Lafettes. I've seen matches where all the snipers were picking hapless Lafette gunners as soon as the gun was manned, if the mortars, destroyers, or LC machine guns didn't get them first - such matches ended up at the last flags (though with a narrow German victory).
Then, one day even I managed to get 60+ kills on the Lafette, and the U.S. struggled to cap even one WN. Only sporadic mortar fire, no sniping, and LC gunners stopped even trying after I got a couple of them. Very little attempts to advance at the flanks or to try get under the guns - just one mad zergrush to the centre WN where nearly all German emplacements have a clear shot. BRAAAP BRAAAP
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2.47 changelog for Omaha Beach 64
- Added 500 tickets to both teams.
- Renamed dummy flags on the beach
- German heavy weapons in Vierville only spawn after the three WN flags are taken.
- Minor cosmetic fixes
- Limited kits are now labeled "Limited"
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2.47 changelog for Omaha Beach 64
- Added 500 tickets to both teams.
- Renamed dummy flags on the beach
- German heavy weapons in Vierville only spawn after the three WN flags are taken.
- Minor cosmetic fixes
- Limited kits are now labeled "Limited"
From what I've experienced in my recent Omaha matches post-patch, I think that it's still heavily unbalanced -- even for a good US team. The US needs more tickets added (don't add any for the Germans).
Furthermore, I think that some or all of the WN points should lock once they've been captured by the US. Or, as a compromise, have one of the WN nest capzones lock if two of them have been captured.
Today we had an excellent US team with good coorindation, plenty of arty spots, and decent ship gunners. We managed to cap 2 WN nests but no more -- the germans back capped WN3 while the entire US team was focused on WN1 and 2.
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Everyone's experience is different :) In 2.47 I have seen:
- easy wins for US
- close losses for US
- easy wins for Germans
So I'd say it's all in the game and no more tickets are needed.
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Experienced those too. But most of the time Allies make the beach phase at least, so that's very nice. It's up to them to be aggressive enough to take the town then. Saw some great German defense at the town and also US taking it. In my opinion this all looks very good right now.
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Just had my first real experience on the new Omaha and I think the ticket addition is perfect :)
We had a very good US team and we managed to win the map by capping them out with about 600 tickets left on our side. It was a convincing victory for a team that had dominated the past 4-5 rounds.
The ticket addition makes it so it's more about what team is better and more coordinated. If the US can't cap the WNs and the rest of the town in 1500 tickets, its because they aren't coordinated enough imo.
The ticket addition was perfect and I think the map is very balanced now. More play testing will show it but I think it's working well. :)
(snip)
Also @TS what was the thinking behind the addition of the rifle grenades for the German kits? I haven't had a problem with it yet but I also thought the German kit layout was fine in the first version and that they didn't need more of an advantage.
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The limited riflenade kit was always there IIRC. I thought it would be fun to try and hit the boats with it.
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The limited riflenade kit was always there IIRC. I thought it would be fun to try and hit the boats with it.
Oh it's limited? ok good :) it doesn't say so on the menu.
It's not like hugely overpowering but I thought if every riflemen had it, it would become a bit much.
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I'm simply not seeing the results that you guys are. In ALL of the many rounds I've played, the US was only able to cap 2 of the beach objectives. I still have no clue what the town looks like.
It still seems to me like the US needs more tickets, especially since it can be a bitch to cap the last beach objective when the entire German team is spawning there (sometimes 50+ players).
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it can be a bitch to cap the last beach objective when the entire German team is spawning there (sometimes 50+ players).
Yes, that can be hard indeed. Surrounding the last flag by SLs usually does the trick. Some smoke and ship arty helps a lot, too.
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at both of nest if you fire mortar like this(full lay down) you blow up
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If you rotate paks in the bunkers so they shoot on the walls, you will blow up as well. What's the point of firing like that? Do you need to lay mortart that much to hit any targets on the beach?
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We noticed that the Allies actually win a majority of rounds now on this map, so we are thinking about decreasing the tickets slightly. Any thoughts on this? It would mean the attackers have less time to cap all flags.
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I like it like this,Germans are on clifs with around 10 MG42 and lot of other weapon so if American wins a lot that is because of they knowledge about map.
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I feel like assault maps should generally be balanced to slightly favor the attacking team. This is just because if they do much better than the defense then they cap everything, moving the server along to a new map at no real loss. In the opposite case the round gets bogged down on the first few points and the map takes forever to finish even though it becomes clear half way through there's no way the attackers will win.
This happens a lot on certain maps. Port en Bessin, Supercharge and Tunis barely ever see combat at their last flags, and would be interesting to actually see action there now and then.
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Oh, well put. Although in my case I prefer just to do away with any sort of push layout. Best to open up all flags to prevent any sort of bogging down and to implement conquest assault lines instead to have the final flag as the ultimate yet optional treat for the attacker.
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I feel like assault maps should generally be balanced to slightly favor the attacking team. This is just because if they do much better than the defense then they cap everything, moving the server along to a new map at no real loss.
Yeah that is also my view tbh. On a map like Omaha, the attacking team winning is the preferred "dramaturgy". Doesn't make the first sector any easier or less epic.
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I kinda miss a MG42 class in this map.
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I think the Germans will be a little too overpowered if the map had a selection MG42.
Besides there is a MG42 pickup kit in the center house close to the beach. :)
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2.5 changelog for Omaha Beach 64
- The last flag (Church) now unlocks after a delay of 60 seconds to give defenders time to fall back and clear out "early birds".
- Fixed some crates and boxes at the beach stop being rendered by the engine at a too short range, "uncovering" players behind them to the other team.
- Blocked the space under all bunk beds (no more hiding under them).
- Fixed missing "LIMITED" text in the German grenadier kit.
- Unique equipment: the LCVP boats lost the ability to travel overland and one of the two .30 cal MGs.
- Unique equipment: the Mk12 5in Naval Gun (the destroyer) got a sound upgrade thanks to Hybrid V (an applicant). Also fixed the switch-to-ammo delay being shorter than the reload time which could be exploited to fire the guns faster than intended.